mail on sunday's anna the mail on sunday's anna mikhailova . and we're going to mikhailova. and we're going to be little be doing things a little differently kick off differently today and kick off hopefully straight away with the chancellor jeremy hopefully straight away with the chancellorjeremy hunt, hopefully straight away with the chancellor jeremy hunt, who will be joining me in just a moment just he does , though, as just before he does, though, as we for him be miked up, we wait for him to be miked up, i'm going to bring anna mikhailova into the conversation. anna, just conversation. anna, we're just waiting chancellor to waiting for the chancellor to appear screens waiting for the chancellor to appe us screens waiting for the chancellor to appe us this screens waiting for the chancellor to appeus this morning. screens waiting for the chancellor to appeus this morning. it's;creens waiting for the chancellor to appeus this morning. it's been s with us this morning. it's been a difficult week for the government. let's be perfectly honest. you think honest. what do you think i should him.7 honest. what do you think i showell, him.7 honest. what do you think i showell, he1im.7 honest. what do you think i showell, he should ask him about >> well, he should ask him about the budget. our tax is falling, obviously, he's not going say obviously, he's not going to say anything. but you can try. >> indeed. i mean , this is >> indeed. so, i mean, this is the thing them the funny thing about them sending out sending the chancellor out on the because then say, the round because you then say, right, are you going right, then what are you going to and right, then what are you going to say, and right, then what are you going to say, oh, and right, then what are you going to say, oh, sorry, and right, then what are you going to say, oh, sorry, we and right, then what are you going to say, oh, sorry, we can't and they say, oh, sorry, we can't tell you wednesday . what tell you until wednesday. what are here but are you doing here then? but he's under increasing he's coming under increasing pressure, isn't he? not just on inheritance tax and there's two different approaches this different approaches to this between the right and the left wing press. hand, you've wing press. on one hand, you've got the right wing press calling for iht cut. on other, for an iht cut. on the other, you've the observer saying you've got the observer saying this tax cut this is just yet another tax cut for about this? for the rich. how about this?

unfreeze of tax bands unfreeze easing of tax bands because we've seen this fiscal drag. that's when people who are on £40,000 have been on £40,000 or more have been dragged into a higher tax rate. i wonder whether he'll unfreeze the that might be an the bands that might be an easier thing do than say, easier thing to do than say, say, going to take say, are we going to take a penny off income tax? >> yeah, because these tax bands have frozen. it's a classic have been frozen. it's a classic treasury more money treasury trick to get more money without looking they're without looking like they're raising time of raising taxes. but in a time of high inflation, it's absolutely devastating for families. so they've they've got do they've got to they've got to do something, or something, whether it's now or the don't know. the spring, we don't know. >> interesting, as >> but it's interesting, as well, language around well, all this language around i would keeps would like to cut tax. he keeps on saying i'm a low tax chancellor. >> he's self identifies as a tax cutter. >> but isn't yet he's a tax cutter in name only. >> but the same time i think >> but at the same time i think he feels under pressure, doesn't he? we've got inflation he? because we've got inflation coming to be fair to the coming down to be fair to the government. they're taking coming down to be fair to the goverrforent. they're taking coming down to be fair to the goverrfor that. hey're taking coming down to be fair to the goverrfor that. hey're tithey credit for that. should they take for inflation going take credit for inflation going down? to admit down? they don't seem to admit that they have behind that they may have been behind inflation going that's inflation going up. so that's the weird so it's down. the weird thing. so it's down. and actually rishi sunak has achieved it was achieved that target. it was totally wiped out that success, though, by suella

though, of course, by suella braverman and braverman resignation and her bombshell letter. yeah. >> which i think we'll talk about a bit later. but suella braverman certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons last week . amongst the pigeons last week. and i think, you know, on wednesday the chancellor and the prime minister are really going to trying the to be trying to set the narrative. i've the narrative. i've set the conversation and show what they're actually about . they're actually about. >> i mean, do they have to come up with something really quite rabbit of the hat ish? only rabbit out of the hat ish? only because the clock is ticking. i appreciate they've got the budget in the spring. next year as a last chance saloon moment to set out their economic plan, but actually it's quite crucial what he comes out with on wednesday. we've got tories like iain duncan smith, jacob rees—mogg and others all scream ing for tax cuts. you've got the pubuc ing for tax cuts. you've got the public screaming for tax cuts because the burdens never been higher. it's been the highest. now since the second world war. so if he doesn't deliver, how dangerous is it for him? >> i think it'll get tricky because this is off the back of a damp squib or a king's speech,

a damp squib or a king's speech, a damp squib conference. these moments that mps have said to rishi sunak , you have to rishi sunak, you have to deren rishi sunak, you have to deliver, you have to give us something to show that that this is working , that we have is working, that we have a chance of turning the polls around. if wednesday is around. i think if wednesday is yet squib, yet another damp squib, you're looking real pressure to looking at real pressure to possibly even change leadership. i mean, that conversation will change leadership. >> mean, on, you're >> i mean, come on, you're joking . joking. >> w n w i mean. >> some are. i mean. >> andrea jenkyns put her it's not realistic. >> would political not realistic. >> but ould political not realistic. >> but there political not realistic. >> but there would tical not realistic. >> but there would bel not realistic. >> but there would be a suicide, but there would be a lot of unhappiness with sunak. >> and also i suppose what the interesting thing is with regard to the relationship between hunt and sunak now is how much and rishi sunak now is how much that dynamic is going to be changed by the arrival of lord cameron. i might put this to the chancellor. actually, it's about a out from being miked up a minute out from being miked up because george because as i think george osborne the week , oh osborne said in the week, oh yes, lord cameron is now the second important person second most important person in cabinet. minute. cabinet. well, hang on a minute. that's hunt. that's meant to be jeremy hunt. also, i can recall, and technically, oliver dowden . technically, oliver dowden. >> deputy prime minister well, technically. >> oliver dowden. i >> oliver dowden. yeah also i remember mail on

remember i think the mail on sunday serialised lord ashcroft's book about rishi sunak, and in that it revealed that when he was told, oh, you'll have to keep jeremy hunt as chancellor, wasn't as chancellor, he wasn't particularly it. particularly happy about it. >> , exactly. and jeremy hunt >> no, exactly. and jeremy hunt has sort of looked unsackable for a while now just because, again , you can't change again, you can't change chancellor too many times . it chancellor too many times. it doesn't look serious. but i think if he doesn't deliver on wednesday again , you're going to wednesday again, you're going to have a lot of pressure asking why he still in the job if why is he still in the job if he's not managing do anything he's not managing to do anything exciting actually help exciting and actually help help people, families at people, help working families at a really, really difficult time in the businesses businesses in the businesses and businesses they they're going to be talking a lot on wednesday about trying to growth, that this to go for growth, that this is the time to reinvigorate the economy, and give economy, to really try and give a to british businesses. a boost to british businesses. i mean, there's some talk of doing things with tape or with things with red tape or with regulation. so you know, let's wait and see. but but surely businesses need a lot more than the undoing of red tape . the undoing of red tape. >> they claim to be completely over regulated and spending a great of time on

great deal of time on bureaucracy. you've got them paying bureaucracy. you've got them paying massive amounts of tax anyway paye and then anyway through paye and then adding to that with corporation tax now 6% higher than it was going to be, you've got this ir35 on going problem with people who are self—employed and having to now use umbrella companies and all the rest of it. you've also got this weird thing where they won't scrap the vat luxury goods. there's vat on luxury goods. there's been massive campaign been a massive campaign in the mail we're as mail about it. we're not as competitive as our european rivals . i competitive as our european rivals. i mean, this competitive as our european rivals . i mean, this whole rivals. i mean, this whole post—brexit spirit of competition, where we'd be leading the world on free trade hasn't quite materialised, hasn't quite materialised, hasn't it? >> and don't forget all >> and don't forget vat, as all the always said, is the brexiteers always said, is quite simple thing to cut and quite a simple thing to cut and make us more competitive . so make us more competitive. so you're absolutely right . you're absolutely right. businesses out for businesses are crying out for some for some help, for some for some for some help, for some for some cuts, for some inset lives to get growth going and to make britain somewhere. people want to invest in. >> do you think that the next election is going to be about the stupid? quote the economy, stupid? to quote one clinton's aides , or is it

one of clinton's aides, or is it going to be more about immigration? because i shall also about the rwanda also ask him about the rwanda plan. depends plan. of course, it depends who gets set the question. gets to set the question. >> and people that the >> and people say that the person wins the election or person who wins the election or has chance is one has a higher chance is the one who can the tone . so the who can set the tone. so the conservatives are going to be trying ready. conservatives are going to be tryi so ready. conservatives are going to be tryi so i'm ready. conservatives are going to be tryi so i'm delighted to bring >> so i'm delighted to bring jeremy hunt, the chancellor, and mp surrey, into mp for south west surrey, into the now. lovely to mp for south west surrey, into the you now. lovely to mp for south west surrey, into the you this now. lovely to mp for south west surrey, into the you this morning, lovely to mp for south west surrey, into the you this morning, chancellor see you this morning, chancellor . look, i you've done . look, now i know you've done various broadcast rounds where you've say what's you've refused to say what's happening wednesday. there's happening on wednesday. there's been of you cutting iht . been talk of you cutting iht. how about unfreezing these tax bands? you can't be happy about the idea of people on 40,000 or above. some of them might be teachers, some of them might be nurses. actually being fiscally dragged more tax. dragged into paying more tax. it's stealth tax and it needs it's a stealth tax and it needs to stop, doesn't it ? to stop, doesn't it? >> well, good morning, camilla. obviously, i'm not going to talk about the measures that i'm going to be announcing to parliament on because parliament on wednesday because i those to i have to announce those to parliament rightly so parliament first, and rightly so . but there is a very big dividing line between the dividing line between us and the labour party on tax i'm

labour party on tax and i'm really pleased. you've mentioned it because believe that if it because i do believe that if we're dynamic, we're going to be a dynamic, thriving , energetic, fizzing thriving, energetic, fizzing economy , we need low tax and we economy, we need low tax and we need taxes to be lower than they are at the moment. and the reason i believe that is if you look around world, the most look around the world, the most dynamic, successful economies at the in north america the moment are in north america and asia, where they tend to have lower taxes. so i think our tax burden. i'm only going to do it in a our tax burden is the highest since the second world war. >> i mean, i'm people watching this chancellor will be staring at the television and listening to the radio in disbelief. taxes have never been higher than under this conservative government. you talk about laboun government. you talk about labour. there was polling in the mail to suggest that mail yesterday to suggest that most this country now most people in this country now think labour are the party think that labour are the party of economic competence . yes of economic competence. yes well, the truth is and you know, there's no getting around this taxes have gone up in nearly all countries and our taxes are still lower than places like

france , germany and italy france, germany and italy because we've had a once in a century pandemic, a 1970s style oil shock . oil shock. >> but the difference is that we do want to bring them down and labour put up taxes in every single one of their 13 budgets. conservatives cut taxes. when we responsibly can. so let me tell you, i'm not going to tell you what measures i'm going to do, but let me tell you my approach. first of all, we're not going to do anything irresponsible, particularly by which i mean anything fuels inflation, anything that fuels inflation, because a big victory because we had a big victory last week when we delivered the prime minister's pledge to halve inflation when he and i came to office, it was over 11. but now it's 4.6. people watching at home, their number one concern, they say in poll after poll, is they say in poll after poll, is the cost of living crisis . this the cost of living crisis. this makes a difference. so we're going to do this right sensibly. and then the second thing is my priority on wednesday is growth , priority on wednesday is growth, because having made good progress on inflation, we can

move to the next part of our plan, which is to unlock much higher levels of growth. and i will say this to you , camilla, will say this to you, camilla, because i know you've you've written about this before. there is far too much negativity, pessimism and declinism about the british economy. we have got a lot going for us. i'll give you one example. we have got a technology sector that's the third biggest in the world after the united states and china . the united states and china. technology is going to shape all of our lives. we do it really well. so if we're going to get taxes down, growing the economy is part of the solution. but it's also part of the way that we can afford to get taxes down as well. >> you talk about kind of the talk of declinism. that's not necessarily coming from the general public. it's coming from people of people like former bank of england governor mark carney and others, perhaps even ex treasury officials that seem to have wanted to keep up in the wanted to keep tax up in the first you've talked first place. you've talked in general about inflation. i've never understand never been able to understand why can claim the why the government can claim the rewards of bringing inflation down, but not take

responsibility it going up . responsibility for it going up. well we all know why it went up. >> you know, we had the invasion of ukraine and a massive spike in energy prices and food prices globally . when you're faced with globally. when you're faced with 11.1% inflation, as rishi sunak ii.i% inflation, as rishi sunak and i were when we arrived in downing street , the government downing street, the government does have to take very difficult decisions alongside the bank of england to bring it down. now, what i had to do a year ago in a frankly very , very difficult frankly very, very difficult autumn statement for a conservative chancellor is i had to put some taxes up. i had to cut spending because i had to get borrowing under control because you can't get inflation down if you're pumping money into the economy. that actually fuels higher prices. so we've had to play our part in the government to get to where we've got to. and we don't want to throw that away now. we've made such good progress, although some might be scratching some people might be scratching their wondering how on some people might be scratching their you wondering how on some people might be scratching their you promote 'ing how on some people might be scratching their you promote growthv on some people might be scratching their you promote growth by1 earth you promote growth by charging businesses.

>> 6% more on their corporation tax bills. why would you set up a business in the uk today when you're tied up in red tape, you're tied up in red tape, you're paying more corporation tax and business rates . why tax and business rates. why would you . would you. >> well, you were talking about tax thresholds going up in the beginning of this interview. camilla and when i took those decisions on tax, i thought it was fair that the pain was evenly balanced amongst businesses and amongst individual isles. you know, i wanted to spread those difficult decisions fairly. but i do actually agree with you that one of the most important things for us as a country is to make sure that our taxes are competitive in an area that doesn't, frankly, win you any votes, but is very important, which is business we business taxes. we need businesses all the businesses from all over the world to say the uk is a great place up a business, place to set up a business, a great place to invest, and you'll hearing lots from me you'll be hearing lots from me on wednesday about how we can remove business remove barriers to business

investment . one of them we've investment. one of them we've announced we're announced today actually we're going the going to complete overhaul the planning because i meet planning rules because i meet businesses the businesses up and down the country say it just takes country who say it just takes a ridiculous amount of time to get planning ridiculous amount of time to get pl.sayng ridiculous amount of time to get pl.say ifi ridiculous amount of time to get pl.say if local authorities to say if local authorities don't meet their statutory timelines, give businesses timelines, they give businesses the back and they still the money back and they still and they process the application free of charge. so we are going to do a lot of things that i hope will make difference. hope will make a big difference. they want 6% back off they might want 6% back off their profit margins, chancellor, appreciate the chancellor, but i appreciate the explanation . explanation. >> good on wednesday. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll with interest. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll you with interest. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll you for with interest. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll you forjoining h interest. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll you forjoining me terest. >> ian, good luck on wednesday. we'll you forjoining me this;t. thank you for joining me this morning . let's bring in darren morning. let's bring in darren jones into the conversation now. he's the chief secretary to the treasury for the shadow frontbench. he's rachel reeves deputy. effectively, mrjones, deputy. effectively, mr jones, lovely to see you this morning. i'm not sure if you were able to hear what mr hunt was saying there. let's talk about labour's better off plan . i've got this better off plan. i've got this press release in front of me . mr press release in front of me. mr jones, you're saying that, first of all, you'd make people better off year by insulating off by £500 a year by insulating homes to make them more energy

efficient ? i can't quite efficient? i can't quite understand the maths behind that . paying for the . mr jones, who's paying for the homes be insulated ? homes to be insulated? >> well , good homes to be insulated? >> well, good morning. the £500 a year saving doesn't come actually from the labour party. it comes from the energy company e.on. in evidence that they submitted the parliament submitted to the parliament because obviously if you are able to insulate your home, the heat that you produce predominantly via a gas boiler, but maybe by other means stays in your house for longer and you use less energy and so low. but you're saying that the taxpayer themselves will have to put the initial outlay for the insulation that they're paying for insulation in to order for the insulation in to order save £500 further down the line ? save £500 further down the line? and it will depend on your circumstances. so the government already is doing insulation work in council houses, for example , in council houses, for example, and housing association houses . and housing association houses. we think they should be doing more of that, more quickly, but it's already existing. >> you're also saying that people can save £900 a year by building cheaper, cleaner power across the country through the

creation of great british energy . again, how much is the creation of great british energy going to cost? mrjones creation of great british energy going to cost? mr jones well, again, it depends on the type of technology . technology. >> but what we do know from the past year is that if you're relying on import gas, fossil fuels from countries overseas where there could be war or other things that happen, the price can go through the roof. that's why people's energy bills have been so expensive the that's why people's energy bills have year. so expensive the that's why people's energy bills haveyear.whereas|sive the that's why people's energy bills haveyear. whereas ifve the that's why people's energy bills haveyear. whereas if you the that's why people's energy bills haveyear. whereas if you have past year. whereas if you have of energy based here in the united kingdom, that renewable that maybe is nuclear, the price is more stable, it's lower. >> i get all that. >> i get all that. >> no, i understand . but how are >> no, i understand. but how are you going to pay for the cost of building cheaper, cleaner power across the country ? and how much across the country? and how much will it cost ? will it cost? >> well, let me give you some illustrative examples. nuclear for example, is an important part of the energy mix. s hinkley point c has been paid for under the existing government. they've put some investment into sizewell c the

rest of that money will have to be private sector investment. that's an example of where in the have you got a price tag on how this costs ? how much this costs? >> is in power , how >> so if labour is in power, how much are they going to set aside for the great british energy project? >> oh, i see. camilla what i can't do is give you a per project price for per technology across the country because has it costed all of our it been costed all of our policies are costed. but what gb energy is, is, is a publicly owned company that will do deals with the private sector under a labour government to ensure that we're building much we're building as much home grown as possible. grown energy as possible. >> okay. you've also promised in this press release a crackdown on unfair car insurance practices like subscription traps and unfair postcode pricing. you're saying that motorists will save 400 a year, but surely motorists are being charged more for their insurance because of the rising cost of claims, the rising cost of repairs and indeed labour shortages . so what difference shortages. so what difference will it make if you do something about auto renewal ? well all the about auto renewal? well all the subscription trap that many of

your viewers will be familiar with is when you sign up to a product and it automatically renews probably normally a year after you signed up to it. >> and people have got busy lives and they might miss an email or a message or they might not even be told that it's renewing a price and we say renewing a new price and we say the action should be taken to prevent that from happening. people should be given proper advance notice the ability advance notice and the ability to to find better priced to be able to find better priced products other . products in other. >> no, i get that too. i understand the problem with auto renewal. victim renewal. we've all fallen victim to i'm saying is to it. but what i'm saying is it's going to touch it's not going to touch the sides, it? insurance sides, is it? if insurance pnces sides, is it? if insurance prices keep on going up because of the rising cost of repairs and labour shortages . and so and labour shortages. and so it's just a sort of you're making a statement about auto renewal. what difference is that going why going to make? that's not why insurance bills are going up . insurance bills are going up. >> me give you some >> well, let me give you some advice. your insurance advice. if your insurance product comes to an end and you ring your insurance provider, ring up your insurance provider, yeah, no, i know. >> i'm no, i've not i've not >> but i'm no, i've not i've not told you the point. >> you telling me, you know, let me just the sentence. me just finish the sentence.

when the insurance when you call up the insurance provider can get provider and say, hey, i can get this a cheaper price with this at a cheaper price with another provider, can this at a cheaper price with anotd0' provider, can this at a cheaper price with anotdo me provider, can this at a cheaper price with anotdo me a provider, can this at a cheaper price with anotdo me a deal provider, can this at a cheaper price with anotdo me a deal provicsinglei you do me a deal every single time and they lower time they say yes and they lower the price, they clearly can the price, they clearly they can afford . afford. >> i get i get the point about auto what i'm auto renewal. but what i'm saying i've had anecdotal saying is and i've had anecdotal evidence really evidence of this only really in the couple weeks across the last couple of weeks across the last couple of weeks across the prices are the board, insurance prices are going because the rising cost going up because the rising cost of and indeed labour of repairs and indeed labour shortages mean that insurance companies are having to put up premiums. so, yeah, auto renewal might little but might help a little bit, but £400 probably being £400 a year is probably being ambitious if exponentially insurance costs keep on rising. let's move on to the next point . let's move on to the next point. 1200 a year could come off mortgage bills by building 1.5 million homes over parliament. this one is just confused me because keir starmer stance on building has confused me. back in 2021, he talked about the tories proposed planning reforms as being a quote, developers charter. then at conference he effectively suggested bulldozing through planning laws and local

planning laws to build these 1.5 million homes. so is he nimby or yimby. >> i don't think i can remember what nimby stands for. yimbys. yes. isn't it? >> yes. >> yes. >> in my backyard versus no, in my backyard . my backyard. >> got it. got it. forgive me not knowing the slang, but look. yes, we are for housebuilding because we know there are not enough houses. there are not enough houses. there are not enough affordable houses across the country. that has an impact not just people are in a not just on people who are in a position to their position to buy their first home, people who are in home, but for people who are in the rental market where the price been going up price of rent has been going up and year after year. one of and up year after year. one of the best ways you can tackle increasing costs of living is to be able to build more affordable homes in our country and we make no apologies for saying that we will do that. >> okay. can i just have a general of labour's general overview of labour's approach to the economy? if the time comes that you're actually in power? i appreciate don't in power? i appreciate you don't want specifics and you want to give specifics and you haven't up with your haven't come up with your manifesto and all the rest of it, in principle, do you it, but in principle, do you envisage cutting taxes

envisage labour cutting taxes and cutting spending ? and cutting spending? >> well , to answer your three >> well, to answer your three questions in that in that question, firstly, our approach to the economy is anchored on getting economy growing getting the economy growing because we've not had economic growth for many, many years now. and that means that you don't have businesses making profits. your workers pay isn't going up and amount revenue coming and the amount of revenue coming into is not keeping into the treasury is not keeping up with costs. so you have to be anchored grow the anchored in trying to grow the economy. talk about that economy. we can talk about that more if you'd like to. the second point that mentioned second point that you mentioned there we've there is around taxes. we've said in the labour party that we want the tax burden to come down on working people. it's the highest has been since the highest it has been since the second world war. we've had 25 conservative this conservative tax rises in this parliament alone. but we can only announce those tax cuts when they can be fully funded. and if the chancellor going and if the chancellor is going to announce a tax cut on wednesday, we're going to be looking to looking at how he's been able to get to pay for that to get the money to pay for that to happen. part of happen. and the third part of your which was around your question, which was around pubuc your question, which was around public sector spending, one of the that

the key things there is that even though the chancellor has been more money from us been taking more money from us than all of than ever before, all of our pubuc than ever before, all of our public services on their public services are on their knees. so there's a huge question we reform and question about how we reform and modernise services modernise our public services so that better for people that they are better for people that they are better for people that on them , but that that rely on them, but that they're more cost effective they're also more cost effective to run in the long run and on all of those issues, all three of those issues, pubuc all three of those issues, public sector reform, tax and growing economy , these are growing the economy, these are difficult, complicated issues . difficult, complicated issues. the tories have clearly ran out of energy and ran out of steam and that's why we're confident that labour that an incoming labour government and government with new ideas and new will be to new energy will be able to turn that because of course that around because of course rachel has had to rachel reeves has had to slightly water your green slightly water down your green prosperity pledge. >> that's 28 billion for five years for this new green prosperity plan. she said she had to water that down because of the current economic climate or the climate. you might inherit next year. but at the same time, of course, 28 billion over the course of five years is adding a lot of money to the national debt, isn't it? how is that affordable if you're worried about how you're going to the idea of tax

to balance up the idea of tax cuts and indeed spending cuts with a pledge of that magnitude ? with a pledge of that magnitude? >> so all of our plans are >> sure. so all of our plans are subject to our fiscal rules. that's why rachel has said that after liz truss and kwasi kwarteng crashed the economy and the cost of borrowing went through roof , we would have through the roof, we would have to more constrained in what to be more constrained in what we would be able to do in government. that's as a consequence of the conservatives failure on the economy. the second to is there is second thing to say is there is a between the a difference between what the conservatives have done in government take on government, which is to take on debt cover up their failure debt to cover up their failure because they can't get the economy and they can't economy growing and they can't fix is fix our public services. that is different to our growth green prosperity is where prosperity plan, which is where we alongside our we are investing alongside our business. and we think that for every £1 taxpayers money, we every £1 of taxpayers money, we can £3 out of the private can get £3 out of the private sector to build the infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, the jobs of tomorrow because that will help get the economy growing . and in get the economy growing. and in the run, that investment the long run, that investment will be paid off by the will then be paid off by the private through the taxes private sector through the taxes that they contribute the that they contribute to the treasury. consequence of treasury. as a consequence of having business in

having a profitable business in our in economy that our country in an economy that is but you're not going is growing. but you're not going to be about that level to be worried about that level of it doesn't of borrowing when it doesn't look interest rates look like interest rates are going down time sooi'i. 500“. >> soon. >> i appreciate who you're attributing to for them attributing blame to for them going the place, but going up in the first place, but at we've got the bank at the moment we've got the bank of england other experts of england and other experts talking 5% rate, talking about that 5% rate, flat lining for some time to come. therefore, it's not going to be cheap to borrow this 28 billion a year . a year. >> yeah, as i said, they're all subject to our fiscal rules and we don't what economic we don't know what the economic environment at the point environment will be at the point that election is called next that the election is called next year need to see what year and we'll need to see what it like but all of it looks like then. but all of our decisions are all of our policies should sorry, are policies should say sorry, are fully to our fully costed and subject to our fiscal everything fiscal rules. everything we do will responsibly . will be done responsibly. >> okay. darren thank you >> okay. darren jones, thank you very for joining >> okay. darren jones, thank you very forjoining me very much indeed forjoining me this morning. now, listening to all the wonderful anna all that is the wonderful anna mikhailova, from the mail mikhailova, who's from the mail on sunday. she's deputy political editor there. anna we had to move things around a little bit because jeremy hunt could only do that time. this morning he races off to morning before he races off to more interviews. you've got a

couple stories in couple of really good stories in your morning. your paper this morning. you've got speaking got suella braverman speaking for the first time since resignation letter gate. what's she saying ? yeah, so this is the she saying? yeah, so this is the first interview, as you say, to my colleague glenn irwin, since her dramatic sacking and dramatic letter eviscerating the prime minister. >> so she is , as you'll be >> so she is, as you'll be shocked to hear, doubling down on how terrible rishi sunak is. he's i mean, you know , the he's i mean, you know, the language is strong. she's calling him tepid and timid, accusing him of tweaking his plans for rwanda, you know, saying basically he's not going far enough to try and get boats off the ground. really damningly. she's actually saying that with his current plan, we will not get a single flight off before the general election. oh, my goodness me . my goodness me. >> i mean, are we ever going to get a flight off? what's your instinct on this? we've got lord sumption the sunday sumption writing in the sunday times the plan times that actually the plan itself isn't the problem. it's rwanda, country for rwanda, as the country for processing overseas. that's the issue i don't quite understand

how introducing them legislation to say that rwanda is safe when the supreme says it isn't the supreme court says it isn't is going to change the facts of the matter. >> no, i think they've got much more hope trying to actually effectively help rwanda get much better at processing. so there's been some talk of home office officials have been sent out there to try and improve their processes because they're effectively saying rwanda effectively saying if rwanda give as they give some guarantees as they don't have the systems don't actually have the systems in to deliver those in place to deliver on those guarantees make sure that guarantees to make sure that people sent to people aren't then sent to dangerous problem people aren't then sent to dangthats problem people aren't then sent to dangthat is problem people aren't then sent to dangthat is the problem people aren't then sent to dangthat is the home problem people aren't then sent to dangthat is the home office 3lem with that is the home office officials are not exactly brilliant at processing claims themselves. >> have the home office >> so why have the home office officials only just ended up there? i mean, haven't they there? i mean, why haven't they been time, been there the whole time, making that could be making sure that there could be a transition? very quick a smooth transition? very quick word front story, word on your front page story, which absolutely staggering . which is absolutely staggering. it's taken five years and nearly £1 million to deport the rapist. yakub ahmed, to somalia . just yakub ahmed, to somalia. just briefly summarise it, anna, because it will enrage our audience. i know. >> so it's a really shocking story that shows just the scale

of this problem with immigration. a man who was immigration. so a man who was convicted , outed and jailed for convicted, outed and jailed for gang raping a 16 year old girl in london. so he came here from somalia. he was granted refugee status. then he he is convicted of rape and after that, theresa may stripped him of his refugee status and started trying to deport him. years and years and years later of attempts of his lawyers coming up with all kinds of reasons . so saying he's got of reasons. so saying he's got mental health issues and removing him from the plane and is he gone? he's gone. removing him from the plane and is he gone? he's gone . but £1 is he gone? he's gone. but £1 million later. £1 million later. and even more shockingly , he as and even more shockingly, he as part of the deal to actually get him to go, we have paid for him to be in a luxury hotel for 14 weeks in somalia. >> small thank you very much, anna. >> michela, we'll be back with a lot more in a moment, lot more in just a moment, including kwarteng . stick including kwasi kwarteng. stick with

us welcome back to the camilla tominey show. goodness me, that was a rather rapid fire. 30 minutes. we've got another jam packed hour ahead for you. we're going find out the going to find out what the former kwasi former chancellor kwasi kwarteng, wants to see his immediate successor, jeremy hunt, announced in the autumn statement wednesday . and with statement on wednesday. and with his riding high in the his party riding high in the polls, i'm going to be joined by richard leader of reform. richard tice, leader of reform. all that still come after all of that still to come after the with armstrong .

the news with aaron armstrong. >> hey, good morning to you . >> hey, good morning to you. >> hey, good morning to you. >> it's 10:00. >> hey, good morning to you. >> it's10:00. i'm aaron armstrong in the newsroom . the armstrong in the newsroom. the chancellor says the government is acting responsibly over tax cuts ahead of next week's autumn statement . speaking to gb news, statement. speaking to gb news, jeremy hunt said he will not introduce kind of tax that introduce any kind of tax that will have fuel inflation even after it was halved over the past year. hinted past year. he's hinted inheritance and business tax could be slashed in an effort to boost economy. but he also boost the economy. but he also insists week's autumn insists next week's autumn statement will focus on growth . statement will focus on growth. >> we're not going to do anything irresponsible , anything irresponsible, particularly by which i mean anything that fuels inflation because we had a big victory last week when we delivered the prime minister's pledge to halve inflation when he and i came to office, it was over 11. now it's 4.6. people watching at home, their number one concern, they say in poll after poll, is the cost of living crisis . this cost of living crisis. this makes a difference. so we're going to do this response ably. homeowners could be offered up

to £1,000 per year off their household bills if they're prepared to live new near new electricity pylons. >> the government's hoping the move will overcome planning objections and speed up its bid to install new power networks. the current estimate to roll out the infrastructure boost for electric vehicle charging points is 14 years. it could be worth up to £10,000 over a decade for some people, although the treasury hasn't specified where that money will come from . mps that money will come from. mps say the department for education's shocking lack of detail on crumbling concrete in schools means many classrooms are still in an alarming condition . around 700,000 condition. around 700,000 students are relying on buildings in desperate need of refurbishment. that's to according a report by the public accounts committee. but the cross—party panel says a shocking and disappointing lack of basic information from the government means the state government means the true state of crisis remains a mystery. of the crisis remains a mystery. the of education says the department of education says its rebuilding programme is proceeding ahead of schedule

mini buses and electric vehicles have been sent to albania as part of a deal to return foreign prisoners. the arrangement will see 200 albanian nationals currently jailed in england and wales sent back home for the rest of their sentence. the uk has also agreed to help modernise albania's prison system. the overall deal is expected to cost around £8 million, which the government will says will save money for britain's prisons . plans to use britain's prisons. plans to use drones as first responders in police emergencies are to be trialled next year . the cutting trialled next year. the cutting edge concept, known as project eagle x , is to be tested in eagle x, is to be tested in norfolk. if successful, the flight devices would be stationed on buildings and operated remotely to give police early information on on a situation before crews arrive . situation before crews arrive. this is gb news. we're live across the uk on tv, on digital radio and on your smart. speaker two now it's back to . camilla

two now it's back to. camilla welcome back to the camilla tominey show. >> lovely to have your company this sunday morning. lots more still to come. i'm going to be speaking to kwasi kwarteng in just what does the just a moment. what does the former chancellor of how just a moment. what does the forrreplacement)r of how just a moment. what does the forrreplacement is of how just a moment. what does the forrreplacement is doing?f how just a moment. what does the forrreplacement is doing? we're his replacement is doing? we're going to get more expert analysis from anna mikhailova of the mail on sunday and former defence shadow defence secretary and shadow chancellor portillo. chancellor michael portillo. and with his party winning over disgruntled tories by the droves , i'll be joined by richard tice , the leader of reform and this is a special story you'll be able to hear my interview with a british father who's left to london volunteer with the israeli defence forces in the west bank. would you believe now kwasi kwarteng, the former chancellor and business secretary, tory mp for spelthorne , joins me now in the spelthorne, joins me now in the studio . kwasi, lovely to see you studio. kwasi, lovely to see you this morning to you. a this morning to see you. is it a bit triggering to watch another chancellor an autumn statement? >> i think that it's something which is a custom in the house and i'm looking forward to hear what he says. >> if you were him, what would

you do on wednesday? >> because we've had him on this morning is ever the morning and as is ever the custom in the custom we've said what's in the autumn statement to only told custom we've said what's in the acan'tn statement to only told custom we've said what's in the acan't tellatement to only told custom we've said what's in the acan't tell you ent to only told custom we've said what's in the acan't tell you what'sonly told custom we've said what's in the acan't tell you what's my told custom we've said what's in the acan't tell you what's in the told i can't tell you what's in the autumn statement till wednesday, which a mockery of which rather makes a mockery of these the these chancellors doing the broadcast anyway , broadcast round. but anyway, what do? because he's what would you do? because he's coming under heavy pressure from backbenchers indeed backbenchers and indeed the country and business owners to bnng country and business owners to bring taxes down. >> so look, having been in that position and we've had this debate lot , i position and we've had this debate lot, i think position and we've had this debate lot , i think the one debate a lot, i think the one thing he's got to realise is that is quite a long that a year is quite a long time. so all i would say about this is that i don't see how he can go into the budget next year and not give some sort of tax cuts. we can't go into an election saying going to election saying we're going to just increase your taxes indefinitely. you on indefinitely. do you mean on wednesday so wednesday or next year? so i mean, the election next mean, before the election next yean mean, before the election next year, before year, they'll be a year before the general election. so the general election. yes. so whether the tax cut this whether he does the tax cut this year or in the autumn statement or in the budget year, or in the budget next year, i think it has to come. i think it has to give some indication that he's actually going to do what he's actually going to do what

he he is, which is he says he says he is, which is he says he says he is, which is he says he and the prime minister say their low tax conservatives. yes he and the prime minister say thei at )w tax conservatives. yes he and the prime minister say thei at some conservatives. yes he and the prime minister say thei at some pointzrvatives. yes he and the prime minister say thei at some point before s. yes he and the prime minister say thei at some point before the as but at some point before the election, show that. >> are they low tax conservatives? >> well, they've got to show i reality that statement. >> astonishing. reality that statement. >> astonthe1g. haven't come >> well, the taxes haven't come down they've the. >> and they've given the. >> and they've given the. >> appreciate >> but you appreciate the incredulity of our audience listening hunt going listening to jeremy hunt going we're conservatives . we're low tax conservatives. we've funny way of showing we've got a funny way of showing it. think if you say, you know, >> i think if you say, you know, you're your thing, you're doing your one thing, you've show that you're you've got to show that you're that mean business that that you mean business in that regard the regard. and i understand the caution and i totally understand that. i experience it. what i did last year and there was arguably a lack of forward planning . arguably a lack of forward planning. but at arguably a lack of forward planning . but at the same time, planning. but at the same time, i do think that he has to he has to cut taxes. >> but doesn't he need to. i know what you're saying about there tax cuts there needs to be tax cuts before the general before the next general election. to show a bit election. he needs to show a bit of leg on wednesday, doesn't he? there's reports of him now having billion fiscal having £26 billion more fiscal headroom and the headroom can change. >> that was one e that was one of change. >> that was one of the >> i mean, that was one of the issues had last year, issues that we had last year, was that it was they said it was a 72 black billion black hole.

and obvious to me, given and it was obvious to me, given the we had a bit the fact that we had a bit of fiscal was high, fiscal drag inflation was high, that figure would fiscal drag inflation was high, that changed figure would fiscal drag inflation was high, that changed in figure would fiscal drag inflation was high, that changed in the gure would fiscal drag inflation was high, that changed in the newwould fiscal drag inflation was high, that changed in the new year.i have changed in the new year. and it did. yes. this year, the 72 billion hole changed into a surplus. now they're saying it's a surplus. who knows what will happen year? headroom happen next year? the headroom could easily could could just as easily vanish okay. as as a vanish next year. okay. as as a peer this year. >> so what's the most politically expedient thing for him to do in your mind? there's obviously reports of him maybe cutting. the left and cutting. i'm sure the left and indeed the observer has said it's a tax cut the rich. it it's a tax cut for the rich. it doesn't that many doesn't affect that many people anyway. theory anyway. what's your theory on that? >> think you've got to do >> so i think you've got to do what's you think is right. i mean, that's one of the reasons why think we wanted to reduce why i think we wanted to reduce business taxes, why i think we wanted to reduce businever taxes, why i think we wanted to reduce businever win taxes, why i think we wanted to reduce businever win votes, xes, why i think we wanted to reduce businever win votes, but you never really win votes, but you never really win votes, but you actually improve economic you do actually improve economic conditions so actually conditions. so you do actually generate investment . and i think generate investment. and i think that's very important . and that's very important. and that's very important. and that's you know, a country that's why, you know, a country like ireland i remember the president of ireland me president of ireland telling me that most that that was the most successful they'd had in that that was the most sucyears.l they'd had in 30 years. >> exactly. so why why why isn't the aping it? the current government aping it? i we talked about all of

i mean, we talked about all of this post brexit opportunity corporation tax now up there with france and germany . he's with france and germany. he's saying we've got lower taxes than nations, but than these european nations, but that's a sort of marker that's hardly a sort of marker to live by, is it? >> that's right. and he himself said actually the countries said that actually the countries that were that or the areas that were impressive north america impressive were north america and asia. and that was what, jeremy, taxes are lower, jeremy, where taxes are lower, where and where taxes are lower. and i think that's where we've got to go. >> what do you think about this idea are saddled idea that businesses are saddled with much tape, with too with too much red tape, with too much and this refusal to much tax and this refusal to reform or bring back the ir35 system on the vat, on luxury goods seems like a spectacular own goal. that's right. are these some of the things that should be unravelled? >> well, we tried to get rid of them and sort that in the in them and sort that out in the in them and sort that out in the in the mini—budget. and the in the mini—budget. and then, course , jeremy was then, of course, jeremy was brought to brought in essentially to reverse did. and reverse everything we did. and my view at time was that we my view at the time was that we were throwing with were throwing the baby out with the there were the bathwater. yes, there were some you could some things that you could modify, throw out modify, but to throw out everything i think was wrong everything i think was a wrong signal. inside the treasury. >> take us inside the treasury. okay. he turns around to treasury officials, the

so—called blob that has been spoken about for decades and says, i'd like to cut this. i'd like to cut that. i'd like to alter this. what then happens, you've been there. does the treasury just push back on all this stuff? >> no, they don't. what they'll do they'll look at do is they'll they'll look at a model and they'll say, chancellor , if you cut this tax , chancellor, if you cut this tax, this means that you've got to fund , you know, it's a black fund, you know, it's a black hole of 8 billion so that was the thing that the obr looked at. and they they kind of mark your homework and the way their models work mean that every tax you reduce creates means that you reduce creates means that you have to spend more money. yes. they don't believe in any sense of incentivising the economy . so if you were to economy. so if you were to argue, look , we're going to argue, look, we're going to reduce corporation tax to attract investment , but that's attract investment, but that's not an argument that they they find particularly. >> so to circumvent >> so you tried to circumvent the obr precisely because that was the was the was that was the that was the rationale. but then we're back to square one because it strikes me and this was liz truss's argument, okay, that actually

you try and on levers and you try and pull on levers and then got the civil then you've got the civil service pulling the in service pulling on the lever in the opposite direction. >> view actually is a bit >> so my view actually is a bit more i think more nuanced than that. i think there way in which you can there is a way in which you can square the obe reduce taxes square the obe and reduce taxes and got to have honest and you've got to have an honest conversation spending and you've got to have an honest conveyes:ion spending and you've got to have an honest conveyesyou've spending and you've got to have an honest conveyes you've got;pending and you've got to have an honest conveyes you've got to nding and you've got to have an honest conveyes you've got to present cuts. yes you've got to present the two together. that's why i've said i'm not i've always said i'm not a reaganite. i don't believe actually that you actually ultimately that you just can reduce taxes without showing what your you're spending. >> no, but then you didn't take our advice. no, we didn't. and that was a mistake. >> i think looking back, that was a mistake. >> though the obr >> but even though the obr doesn't seem to have predicted anything in years, anything correctly in years, that thing. that was the thing. >> you look the issue. >> so. so you look the issue. >> so. so you look the issue. >> mistake or not? >> so is it a mistake or not? should be listening the should we be listening to the obr or not? >> what i think was wrong >> so what i think was wrong about last year was we were incredibly and we incredibly bold and then we capitulated that are capitulated. that was what are you is that you saying you'll regret is that you saying you'll regret is that you didn't just steamroller through even though the markets were mad. i didn't have were going mad. i didn't have a say. i mean, i was sacked, so yeah, okay. so i didn't have a say. >> what, you think that truss

should have held her nerve? >> i think. i think it was interesting how if you look at last two prime ministers last year, two prime ministers fell. after half his fell. boris left after half his government had resigned and liz left after seven weeks because the markets were very jittery. i totally understand that. and it was just interesting the way in which i think boris clung on, you know, perhaps a little too long, people might say, and liz capitulated after seven weeks. interesting contrast . interesting contrast. >> but then what if interest rates have gone up, had gone up even higher ? you know, you're even higher? you know, you're blamed for putting everybody's mortgages on mortgages up, but you came on here time and actually here last time and actually admitted mortgage had admitted that your mortgage had also result. also as a result. >> but so the issue you i think people confuse a couple of things. bank rate that's the things. the bank rate that's the governor of the bank of england. yes. okay. and a lot of the mortgage is certainly with regard to my mortgage tracker mortgages which relate to the banks interest rate, they don't relate to gilts in the market. they're connected. but the fact is that interest rates were at historic lows. i mean, 300 year historic lows. i mean, 300 year historic lows. i mean, 300 year

historic lows. yes and we kept interest rates very, very low. and as in every other economy in the world, interest rates, then had to go up. central banks put them up very, very quickly. >> i know. but you take responsibility for them going up so so quickly. right so sharply, so quickly. right >> the gilt market. >> no, for the gilt market. sorry sorry. >> no, for the gilt market. sor okay. sorry. >> no, for the gilt market. sor okay. but sorry. >> no, for the gilt market. sor okay. but you y. >> no, for the gilt market. sor okay. but you talk about >> okay. but you talk about bofis >> okay. but you talk about boris johnson clinging on for too long. >> people that he did. >> people say that he did. >> people say that he did. >> mean, will people that >> i mean, will people say that rishi same? rishi sunak done the same? >> look, i think sunak is >> look, i think rishi sunak is in difficult situation in a very difficult situation and you've got to remember that jeremy hunt wasn't appointed by him. jeremy hunt was appointed by liz truss . by liz truss. >> and apparently, according to lord ashcroft's book, we mentioned earlier with mentioned this earlier with anna. rishi turned around anna. rishi sunak turned around and have keep and said, oh, do i have to keep hunt chancellor and they were hunt as chancellor and they were like, because going like, yeah, because you're going to if you to spook the markets if you don't. so you think that don't. so do you think that jeremy is rishi sunaks jeremy hunt is rishi sunaks ideal i think they've got >> look, i think they've got a good working relationship. >> look, i think they've got a goo he'srking relationship. >> look, i think they've got a goo he's notg relationship. >> look, i think they've got a goo he's not ideal. ionship. >> he's not ideal. >> he's not ideal. >> state a fact. most >> let's state a fact. most prime choose their prime ministers choose their own chancellor and didn't he chancellor and he didn't and he didn't. that's, you know, didn't. so that's, you know, that's enough said. i mean, it's jeremy hunt's position safe. >> if it goes wrong on

>> what if it goes wrong on wednesday? >> it is. i think it is. m >> i think it is. i think it is. ithink i >> i think it is. i think it is. i think i mean, look, having lived that experience myself and i said liz truss i even said that to liz truss last year, i think once for whatever the prime whatever reason, the prime minister her minister gets rid of his or her chancellor , i think it becomes chancellor, i think it becomes their position , becomes more their position, becomes more under more pressure. under more pressure. >> under more pressure. >> the return under more pressure. >> lord the return under more pressure. >> lord cameron the return under more pressure. >>lord cameron . the return under more pressure. >>lord cameron . your return under more pressure. >>lord cameron . your reaction of lord cameron. your reaction to him turning up in downing. he's a very capable. >> i was surprised. i was very surprised. >> bit regressive, isn't it? >> bit regressive, isn't it? >> well, it was odd someone >> well, it was odd that someone who that he's a changed who says that he's a changed candidate someone candidate brought someone back who . cameron, who who had annuity. cameron, who hadnt who had annuity. cameron, who hadn't for seven hadn't been in office for seven years. that aside, and david years. but that aside, and david is a very capable politician . is a very capable politician. he's a skilful, serious international figure , and i international figure, and i think he'll do a good job. >> although do you agree with george osborne's analysis of the situation that lord cameron is now second most senior now the second most senior person government? now the second most senior peri)n government? now the second most senior peri thinkjovernment? now the second most senior peri think georgeient? now the second most senior peri think george isil? now the second most senior peri think george is being >> i think george is being mischievous because how mischievous because, i mean, how can someone the house of can someone in the house of lords doesn't answer to lords who doesn't answer to ministers in house of ministers in the house of commons, in the house of commons, mps in the house of commons, mps in the house of commons, how could be the commons, how could they be the most important person? >> that's p" >> well, that's a good you raise an is lack of

an interesting point is lack of accountability here accountability a problem here with hunt? you with this appointing hunt? you know, not going be know, he's not going to be answerable in the commons. there's about putting him, there's talk about putting him, making him have more political scrutiny because he'll have to speak to the select committee . speak to the select committee. yeah, but it's all a bit opaque , yeah, but it's all a bit opaque, this, isn't it? >> look, think it was an >> look, i think it was an unusual step. i understand why rishi the team around rishi and the team around him thought good idea thought it was a good idea to. i'm you'll richard i'm sure you'll get richard tyson have views on tyson. he will have views on return cameron , of david return of cameron, of david cameron. i understand why cameron. but i understand why rishi has done the job. >> but is he going to start lobbying jeremy hunt for more >> but is he going to start lobbyin aid? amy hunt for more >> but is he going to start lobbyin aid? we hunt for more >> but is he going to start lobbyin aid? we know for more >> but is he going to start lobbyin aid? we know forhad'e >> but is he going to start lobbyin aid? we know forhad an foreign aid? we know he had an absolute obsess with this 0.7% of gdp target and it's gone down to 0.5. if he starts lobbying, hunt for more foreign aid money, which isn't particularly popular with our audience, not least in a cost of living crisis. jeremy hunt should resist him, shouldn't he? >> i think he will. i think they're going to stick to the 0.5. i don't see how we're going to increase nought point to increase it to nought point seven we've got the seven when we've got the deficits that we should we should about suella braverman? >>

braverman? » m braverman? >> did you >> yeah, sure. what did you think the letter? think of the letter? >> i thought. i thought i'm afraid. i thought the letter damaged long. damaged her. it was too long. yeah was too. it was too yeah and it was too. it was too emotional. yeah and it was too. it was too emotioryou agree with any of it, >> did you agree with any of it, though? has magic though? i think she has magic thinking. magic. thinking. well magic. >> magical thinking. >> i mean, the magical thinking. that a kind of loaded that was a kind of a loaded phrase. she had phrase. i think she was. she had she a lot of integrity and she has a lot of integrity and i think was trying. yeah, think she was trying. yeah, i do. i think why do you say that? because i think she trying because i think she was trying to problem that is to solve a problem that is dogged, governments to solve a problem that is dogthe , governments to solve a problem that is dogthe government governments to solve a problem that is dogthe government forernments to solve a problem that is dogthe government for years. 1ts for the government for years. yes. i think she is a very yes. and i think she is a very honest her. i honest person. i know her. i i regard her as a friend . regard her as a friend. >> have you spoken to her since the letter? >> i haven't. but i and i actually fort brent east ahead after her mother did. so i know the family. yes. and i have a lot of respect for her. but i think the letter was was was almost too much. you know, the best letters are the shorter ones. not not three pages better for the media for it to be longer. well, you've got more to is this just naked kind of electioneering? >> no, i don't. personal behalf. does she want to be the next leader of the tories? >> i think they i think both

rishi and had a bit of rishi and suella had a bit of right. i think i can see why rishi had to get rid of her because she was openly challenging. well, she was doing her essentially, but her own thing essentially, but i can why she was as resentful i >> -- >> the public agrees with her. you a lot of the polling, you know, a lot of the polling, particularly the gb audience , particularly the gb audience, agrees with on immigration agrees with her on immigration and agrees and the crackdown also agrees with her, by the way, on this idea of police yes. idea of police bias. yes. i mean, we the situation with mean, we see the situation with more taking place . we more marches taking place. we saw handed nature of saw the heavy handed nature of how protesters at lockdown town events were treated and indeed , events were treated and indeed, events were treated and indeed, even people at a vigil for sarah everard . compared to now, people everard. compared to now, people scrambling all over war memorial . well, i'm sorry if that isn't a breach of the peace. what is do you think the police are playing favourites? >> no, no. >> no, no. >> so. so, so, really, whether you i'm to say you think i'm going to say something, slightly, something, you know, slightly, we're not controversial, but whether you think police are whether you think the police are biased not, i don't think biased or not, i don't think it's the place of the home secretary to voice that openly. that was the issue. mean, that was the issue. i mean, having of having been a secretary of state, dealing with state, you're dealing with stakeholders orders. you know,

the secretary deals the education secretary deals with . as a business with teachers. as a business secretary, i dealt with the energy sector or business sector. and i think generally , sector. and i think generally, any kind of criticism to a body like that would be behind closed doors, didn't she? >> standing up for her >> just standing up for her constituents and indeed the people that elected her to office? absolutely. she to office? absolutely. she has to be somebody turn around be somebody has to turn around to the met question whether to the met and question whether they biased. they are biased. >> that may be true, but i don't think and it's a you know, it's a matter interpretation . i a matter of interpretation. i don't was her job as don't think it was her job as home secretary, to home secretary, frankly, to voice that openly as a backbencher who doesn't have a relationship with the met police in close proximity, you in that close proximity, do you think been playing think that they've been playing favourites? think when favourites? i think i think when people at some of the people look at some of the decisions they make, i think people well, why is it people say, well, why is it that, you know, a edl march has been banned and then a pro hamas, which is a terrorist group? >> i mean, are you saying the marches are pro hamas? not all of the marches are pro hamas, right? no but some of them some of them some of the placards you

see are openly pro, but you're equating the pro—palestinian marches. not with the marches. no, i'm not with the edl ones or not? no, no. all i'm saying i'm saying they were more heavy the than heavy handed with the edl than they should i'm they should have been. i'm saying anti. okay, let me saying with anti. okay, let me let put it very broadly. let me put it very broadly. >> marches banned >> some marches are banned outright. are outright. yeah. and others are allowed . and all i'm allowed to proceed. and all i'm saying people look at saying is that people look at that and say, well, what's going on? a legitimate on? and that's a legitimate question in a democracy. all i'm also saying is i don't think the home secretary who ultimately is responsible for the met, should necessarily criticising them necessarily be criticising them in newspapers. >> it's interesting to see some opinion polling . opinion polling. >> let's see opinion, which is usually carried by the left wing media. so it usually tends to favour left wing parties. however says that labour's lead has dropped to 13 points. i mean, that's good news for the tories, but what you've been around the block a bit, if you don't mind me saying kwasi, what don't mind me saying kwasi, what do you think is going to happen next year? look tory wipe out. >> so there are probably about ten polling companies. yeah. okay. all slightly

okay. and they all have slightly different methods and they all report numbers . report different numbers. opinion over time to show opinion over time tends to show a slightly smaller gap between labour and the conservatives , labour and the conservatives, and other polls show slightly wider gaps. but all i can say is that the tory party faces a real challenge next year. >> do you think mps are aware of that? because there's lots of people who walked into their seats in 2019 on on back of seats in 2019 on on the back of anyone boris and anyone but corbyn and boris and they campaign they didn't have to campaign that vociferously to win and they're facing extra ordinarily adverse circumstance aces now, aren't they? i mean we just had jeremy hunt on he might lose his seat. yeah i mean do you think it's going to be some kind of bloodbath? no, be honest. >> i i think >> i think i think i think potentially if things don't change, we're in deep trouble. >> how seats do you think >> how many seats do you think you i don't know. you might lose? i don't know. but talking about but are you talking about a stonking majority you're stonking labour majority you're talking what's talking about? what's your prediction know hard to prediction? i know it's hard to make but let's have let's make them, but let's have let's have a go. look, i think it's not as always say , and i >> and as i always say, and i kept this, a year is kept saying this, a year is a very time. very long time. >> yeah, okay.

>> yeah, okay. >> so and i just have >> but so and i just have re—emphasise that point . theresa re—emphasise that point. theresa may was 20 points ahead of labour eight weeks before the election. that was eight weeks. by the election , she by the day of the election, she was only two points so was only two points ahead. so things could change very quickly. but you've asked me to say i now. i think as say what i think now. i think as it now looking at the numbers it is now looking at the numbers , i there's always going , i think there's always going to real job in their to have a real job in their hands to and get back into hands to try and get back into government think. government drubbing. i think. i think anything happen. think anything could happen. but i we don't get our act i think if we don't get our act together, we're to together, i think we're going to have a very difficult election. >> quick word on darren jones. i think the think you caught some of the interview. i he handled interview. i mean, he handled the well. is the questions quite well. is it any that that the any surprise that that the punters, voters now punters, the voters are now describing party as describing the labour party as the party of economic competence? tories be competence? should the tories be doing more to attack labour on some? i mean, i think we will. the where the figures, the media, where the figures, where have you where the figures have you called this, but not called this, but you're not really the gloss really taking the gloss off. >> all say is , and >> all i would say is, and there's always rush do there's always a rush to do things bold and be things and be bold and be active. we've got a year before the election, as i said, only six years ago, i remember i'm in

a rush with the mini. i agree. look, i speak , i put my hand up look, i speak, i put my hand up and say it was a real rush. yes, that was one of the issues. and i think we have staged i think we could have staged things and i've things more carefully. and i've said over the said that repeatedly over the lastbut you're both that >> but you're saying both that you're in last chance saloon and you've got act you've they've got to act quickly, then it's quickly, but then also that it's a marathon, not sprint. a marathon, not a sprint. >> i've said is >> so what i've said is consistent. okay what i've said is we've to do is that we've got to do something before the election. but election a year away but the election is a year away and they'll another chance but the election is a year away anthe ey'll another chance but the election is a year away anthe budget. another chance at the budget. >> right. thank you >> all right. thank you very much. very insightful much. no it's very insightful andifs much. no it's very insightful and it's always great to have you studio. thank you you in the studio. thank you very kwasi very much indeed. kwasi kwarteng. well, don't go anywhere going anywhere because we're going to get analysis coming get expert analysis coming from the sunday's the mail on sunday's deputy political editor anna mikhailova. my gb news mikhailova. and my gb news colleague, former defence colleague, the former defence secretary, michael portillo. but first, weather up to first, what's the weather up to today? good morning. >> welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. i'm craig snell . looking ahead to today, snell. looking ahead to today, most of us seeing some further outbreaks of rain. there will be a little bit of brightness around and for it will be around and for all it will be mild as we start sunday,

mild. so as we start sunday, probably not too initially probably not too bad initially across southeast england, some brightness here, but elsewhere rather grey with some outbreaks of rain. the rain potentially heavy in places going into the afternoon. best of brightness probably across eastern parts of scotland. southwestern england actually may also cheer up as the afternoon goes on, but quite blustery, especially down across southwestern england. could see some coastal gales from time to time . but temperatures on the time. but temperatures on the mild side in the south, potentially up to 14 or 15 degrees into the night time. it does turn a little bit drier and clearer for a time across parts of england and eastern wales , of england and eastern wales, but elsewhere, further outbreaks of rain coming and going . it's of rain coming and going. it's still quite blustery across many western parts, but it will be another fairly mild night to come. so into monday we will see outbreaks of rain spreading their way south eastwards across their way south eastwards across the uk, probably turning a little bit drier and brighter for a time across parts of yorkshire and lincolnshire. that may well sink its way into parts

of the midlands and east anglia as afternoon goes on. but as the afternoon goes on. but elsewhere a risk of rain really throughout much of the day and feeling a little bit chillier down across western parts with that wind. elsewhere, temperatures around average . temperatures around average. >> welcome back . anna >> welcome back. anna mikhailova, the deputy political editor of the mail on sunday, joins me along with michael portillo, my gb news colleague and the former defence secretary and the former defence secretary and shadow chancellor, presenting his show from 11. but before that, let's have before we do that, let's have some reaction. we've spoken to jeremy albeit quite jeremy hunt, albeit quite briefly this morning. darren jones , who has given labour's jones, who has given labour's case for why they are economically more competent . and economically more competent. and then a fascinating then i thought a fascinating chat with kwasi. let's kick off with you, michael. your with you, michael. what's your reaction we heard reaction to everything we heard this morning? i mean, jeremy hunt and does a broadcast hunt comes and does a broadcast round can't us what's round but can't tell us what's in autumn statement, in the autumn statement, which i suppose course. suppose is par for the course. >> apparently there's been >> and apparently there's been leaking as well. >> so i thought position was >> so i thought his position was frankly ridiculous. >> , thank you for confirming >> yes, thank you for confirming that, because i was watching going, am i going mad or is this

just totally pointless? but just totally pointless? but but but did do was once but what you did do was once again trot out the idea that inflation was caused by external forces , which it absolutely was forces, which it absolutely was not. >> was caused by the bank of >> it was caused by the bank of england being incompetent and pumping the economy . pumping money into the economy. and in turn, the chancellor of the time, i the exchequer at the time, i think was sunak failed to think was rishi sunak failed to control governor the control the governor of the bank of england. the was that of england. the remit was that inflation kept below inflation should be kept below 2% it was not, then the 2% and if it was not, then the governor had to write to the chancellor explain what chancellor and explain what measures taken to measures were being taken to bnng measures were being taken to bring control and none bring it under control and none of happened. and i was just of that happened. and i was just looking up before i came on. now, inflation in now, the inflation rate in switzerland of switzerland is 1.7. now, of course, has had to course, switzerland has had to put up with rising energy costs and rising food costs , but the and rising food costs, but the overall rate of inflation is 1.7% because there is a country that managed its monetary policy and here is a country that absolutely failed so. absolutely failed to do so. so when they say, you know, shall we take credit for the fallen inflation, what they must do is take in take blame for the rise in inflation and consequences inflation and the consequences of of inflation have of the rise of inflation have been of the problems that been most of the problems that the country faces. the that the country now faces.

that say , you know, that is to say, you know, strikes people's living standards. having been reduced the need to control public spending . you know, we are spending. you know, we are living with a series of problems that were caused by the fact that were caused by the fact that the government took their eye off the ball. and the bank of england was incompetent. >> yes. >> yes. >> also, by the way, they've never to have foreseen never seemed to have foreseen the some the inflationary nature of some of rises that have been of the pay rises that have been given, apart from their arguments about arguments with the unions about not junior doctors 35% not giving junior doctors 35% because they wages have gone up, we've seen an inflationary effect to that. nobody's got to keep the money, of course, anna, because we're taxed to the because we're all taxed to the hilt. did you find the most hilt. who did you find the most compelling this morning? hilt. who did you find the most coni)elling this morning? hilt. who did you find the most coni thought1is morning? hilt. who did you find the most coni thought kwasirning? hilt. who did you find the most coni thought kwasi kwarteng was >> i thought kwasi kwarteng was interesting. definitely i mean, his about that, he his comments about that, he thought hunt made a thought that jeremy hunt made a mistake throwing baby mistake throwing the baby out with a year ago. with the bathwater. a year ago. yes. a lot people yes. i think a lot of people thought that was the precise risk, because this idea that everything that kwasi kwarteng and liz truss did was wrong and should be, you know , redone was should be, you know, redone was incorrect. for example , ir35 was

incorrect. for example, ir35 was something they did and jeremy hunt was one of the first things he reversed and, and this idea that, you know, they had to suddenly go completely the other way and go full treasury orthodoxy is i think it hasn't given us the growth that perhaps we could be looking at. and it's certainly not making anyone feel any richer. >> is that a point, michael ? i >> is that a point, michael? i mean, if truss had held her nerve and not bottled, it would the situation have improved for her or got even worse? it's hard to know, isn't it? >> well, liz truss was not the first to lose her nerve. the conservative party was the first to lose its nerve and you may remember that they they got rid of her. is now all of her. this is now all counterfactual. >> but hang on. >> but hang on. >> i mean, to be fair, she's in tears. she's sacking kwasi under huge pressure. yes. he's then said, look, okay, the execution was bad the were good. do was bad, the ideas were good. do we not have some truck with this idea that truss perpetuates? maybe it's protective of her own

reputation in that she wants to go in one direction and just the whole civil service conspires against her to do it. and indeed, the markets and indeed the obr and indeed the treasury. >> well, i mean, part of being a politician is you have to take the civil servants with you. you were talking kwasi kwarteng were talking to kwasi kwarteng about process and about what the process was. and let that the first let me tell you that the first process the chancellor process is that the chancellor makes judgement makes his budget judgement or autumn statement judgement. in other he looks at the other words, he looks at the numbers or she looks at the numbers or she looks at the numbers says, is a time numbers and says, this is a time when i'm going to relax the economy by 10 billion or this is where going tighten the where i'm going to tighten the economy so you economy by 10 billion. so you form judgement and you take form that judgement and you take people you that point. people with you at that point. i mean , i think it was arrogant mean, i think it was arrogant and foolish to try do all and foolish to try to do all those without taking the those things without taking the establishment you. you establishment with you. you can't you know, can't just say, oh, you know, they stopped us doing it. part of being a politician is to make sure they your will and sure that they do your will and conservative governments in the past have done very difficult things the things and taken the establishment with it. >> and do you think that some of

the ideas are still valid ? i the ideas are still valid? i mean, because i know the left has opportunity has used this as an opportunity to complete trash to sort of complete trash everything that truss stood for, you know, a growth agenda. she talked about the anti—growth coalition on the ideas still there , but the execution was there, but the execution was lacking . and can these ideas lacking. and can these ideas ever invigorated , ed, by two ever be invigorated, ed, by two politicians that claim to be low tax tories but can't bring themselves bring taxes down? themselves to bring taxes down? >> think the answer to the >> i think the answer to the second question easier. they second question is easier. they will reinvigorated by will not be reinvigorated by these two. and what we have at these two. and what we have at the moment are a series of policies that offer no hope of growth. in view . and it's all growth. in my view. and it's all very government's sort very well the government's sort of after benefit claimants of going after benefit claimants who are not willing to go to work. why doesn't the government do the first thing which is within is to within its control, which is to get servants to come back get civil servants to come back to yes. mean, if to the offices? yes. i mean, if the can't even the government can't even control servants , control its own civil servants, there's today. is in control its own civil servants, the|telegraph today. is in control its own civil servants, the|telegraphthat1y. is in control its own civil servants, the|telegraph that civil in the telegraph that civil servants are working from the beach ? mean, heaven's beach? i mean, for heaven's sake, the nice work. >> get it. >> if you can get it. >> if you can get it. >> offices whitehall >> the offices of whitehall and the where civil the other cities where the civil service based, it has to be

service is based, it has to be full before before full again before before we start benefit start punishing benefit claimants, let's get the government back to work. >> suggest we >> shall we? suggest that we present show from the present our show from the bahamas next week? michael anna, let you in on darren let me bring you in on darren jones. let me bring you in on darren jones . the polling suggesting jones. the polling suggesting that the punters are thinking that the punters are thinking that labour are economically competent, which may be a turn up for the books are we convinced by labour's spending plans? i mean, i keep on trying to down the numbers. to pin them down on the numbers. we've costed this. are we've costed all this. where are these mythical magical costings? because i've not seen any of you. >> yeah. and i think you rightly pointed out some specific examples and i wasn't convinced by answers on, on them. by his answers on, on, on them. i particularly didn't really understand why he said that building homes would building some more homes would cause payments cause people's mortgage payments to fall. i think i mean, is that a supply and demand argument? >> he's basically saying >> i think he's basically saying pnces >> i think he's basically saying prices fall slightly and therefore. >> but i mean, that's that's several several leaps . several several leaps. >> yes. but also, i think 1.5 million over five years. >> okay . that's something. but >> okay. that's something. but if immigration remains at 600,000 a year and that's just

legal , forget small boats, then legal, forget small boats, then we're not going to have enough housing to accommodate anybody. >> and the conservatives i was you know, some in government i was talking to last night think their absolute hope for the next election is to make the conversation about immigration because they that keir because they think that keir starmer is skewered on this because he's got splits in his party, almost rival to the splits he has on gaza. yes. on on on on illegal migration. and his own position, having been such a proponent of open borders. and the second referendum is extremely tricky. so i think the conservatives will be hoping to move the conversation away from low growth, away from the economy and more and more towards small boats and illegal migration. >> anna michael, thank you very much. we'll see you at 11. looking forward to your show. thank you. in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to the leader the reform party, leader of the reform party, richard reform riding richard tice reform of riding high at moment. high in the polls at the moment. one week for gb news one survey this week for gb news from goodwin's people's from matthew goodwin's people's polling put them at 11. but will this into votes at the

this translate into votes at the next general election? stay tuned for that next .

michael portillo gb news britain's news channel . britain's news channel. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i've got disgruntled conservative catnip in the studio richard tice leader of the reform party and my gb news colleague joined me.

>> now, i've been described as all sorts of things, but never catnip before. >> catnip for disgruntled tories. well, you are of, tories. well, you are kind of, aren't i mean, wrote an aren't you? i mean, i wrote an article keir starmer the solution. >> i'm the saviour, not the catnip. >> well, let's see if you are the saviour. indeed. i wrote an article starmer, and article about keir starmer, and lots were saying, lots of people were saying, don't tory reform. don't vote tory vote reform. so just where are just run us through where are you are your numbers you at? what are your numbers like? kind of polling like? both kind of in polling terms, membership. terms, but also membership. >> a significant >> so this was a significant week and i'm very grateful to the minister, rishi the prime minister, rishi sunak, for he's for for everything he's doing for reform. should him on a reform. we should put him on a commission members commission deal. our members have record have soared again to record numbers have soared again to record nurrecord numbers is what >> record numbers is what richard gives. >> we don't give the exact number. >> come on, now. >>— >> come on, now. >> tell you >> no, but i can tell you a record number. i know. we whisper record number. i know. we whidon't worry. >> don't worry. >> don't worry. >> i know. but no, i'm not going to give a running commentary. well, just generally, but generally thousands, generally hundreds of thousands, tens this is the tens of first week. this is the first we've had tens of first week. this is the first digits we've had tens of first week. this is the first digits in we've had tens of first week. this is the first digits in the �*ve had tens of first week. this is the first digits in the pollsd tens of first week. this is the first digits in the polls for, double digits in the polls for, i'm to say double double i'm going to say double double digit membership. i'm going to say double double digit fourmembership. i'm going to say double double digit four separate hip. i'm going to say double double digit four separate polls have >> no, four separate polls have had a 10 11, only eight had a 10 or 11, only eight points behind, 7. >> that's the first time , only >> that's the first time, only eight points behind the conservative party. and i think

we seeing essentially the we are seeing essentially the sort of the dying days, potentially the last ever majority conservative governments in my lifetime. >> having said toxic people have had enough, having said that, if people vote for you , they're people vote for you, they're just going to split the vote on the right and you're going to just let walk straight just let labour walk straight into 10, it's completely into number 10, it's completely the opposite. >> now camilla can >> only reform. now camilla can stop labour. the tories have had their chance. we did the right thing in we stood thing back in 19. we stood aside. we let them get a big seat majority. they've it. seat majority. they've blown it. they've should they've messed up. they should do thing . they should do the right thing. they should stand aside. me take on richard. >> don't be ridiculous . that's >> don't be ridiculous. that's not going happen. those who not going to happen. those who say we're to split the say we're going to split the vote the right, if you're vote on the right, if you're worried about you can't vote for failure, can't reward failure. >> suggesting that tory mps >> you suggesting that tory mps should stand for reform ? should stand aside for reform? >> um, well, they're all terrified that they're going to lose no. lose their no. >> their seats , right? >> lose their seats, right? >> lose their seats, right? >> not going >> well, they're not going to do they all know they all know they're lose the brand they all know they all know th toxic lose the brand they all know they all know th toxic if lose the brand they all know they all know th toxic if they lose the brand they all know they all know th toxic if they want; the brand they all know they all know th toxic if they want to 1e brand they all know they all know th toxic if they want to stopand is toxic if they want to stop laboun is toxic if they want to stop labour, they do the right labour, they should do the right thing. as we did back 19.

thing. as we did back in 19. i can beat keir starmer. they can't. >> can you beat keir starmer? >> can you beat keir starmer? >> head 10 or >> you've got to head with 10 or 11 in the polls and the latest opinion think the tories opinion puts, i think the tories on about 26. >> so at the moment you can't beat starmer. the beat keir starmer. the conservatives. they improve conservatives. if they improve things, become more low things, if they become more low tax and a bit more tory, they're going the opposite direction. >> down. the brand going the opposite direction. >:going down. the brand going the opposite direction. >:going down. down. the brand going the opposite direction. >:going down. it'siown. the brand going the opposite direction. >:going down. it's toxic. the brand going the opposite direction. >:going down. it's toxic. we'reand is going down. it's toxic. we're the only party that has a serious plan to stop the boats right ? the whole rwanda plan is right? the whole rwanda plan is completely failed. the chief minister of rwanda , it was never minister of rwanda, it was never going to work. so minister of rwanda, it was never going to work . so scrap minister of rwanda, it was never going to work. so scrap miranda, stop wasting time , money and stop wasting time, money and effort. the only thing you can do is what australia did. you pick up you safely take back. we're entitled under we're entitled to do that under international treaties and that's the only thing that will stop the boats. labour won't stop the boats. labour won't stop the boats reform uk. stop the boats only reform uk. okay >> but n okay >> but i suppose if you're >> but then i suppose if you're going the australia going to use the australia example , you do need to have an example, you do need to have an overseas processing area like nauru or somewhere like that. >> and we've got plenty of british overseas should have chosen should have chosen.

>> where you chosen. >> where chosen? >> where would you have chosen? >> where would you have chosen? >> well, i'm not going to say where chosen. where i'd chosen. >> but we've got overseas >> go on, but we've got overseas territories and that's we territories and that's what we should territories and that's what we shoyou need to put a bit of meat >> you need to put a bit of meat on here because you're on the bones here because you're saying solve saying you can solve immigration. us, where immigration. so tell us, where would you process people not rwanda? >> i would them in a british >> i would put them in a british overseas which overseas territory. which one? i will back ascension island. >> there's a variety of places we are in we could put them that are in control immigration is a control because immigration is a key plank. absolutely. >> only people >> we're the only people with a critical you've to critical plan. you've got to leave echr process. leave the echr process. >> you've got up. if >> you've got to pick up. if not, take back. >> well, do you know the best thing them very thing to do is process them very quickly actually, 20 years quickly here. actually, 20 years ago, be processed ago, they would be processed in two the appeal two weeks. the appeal took a third week they were third week and they were deported essentially island saint helena is a variety of places associated with napoleon. >> i'm going a film. >> i'm not going to a film. >> i'm not going to a film. >> go into that detail. >> why can't we go into detail? >> why can't we go into detail? >> because the real thing is processed them rapidly processed them promptly, rapidly in here in the in weeks, not years here in the uk, and then deport them. that's what's the existing law . that's what's the existing law. that's what's the existing law. that's what we should do. and you've got to stop pull factor, the got to stop the pull factor, the magnet , by picking up and

magnet factor, by picking up and taking using existing taking back using existing international treaties. the other point about immigration is that tories basically that the tories have basically opened borders. the labour opened the borders. the labour party want more open border party want even more open border mass believe the mass immigration. we believe the only net zero we want is net zero lawful immigration. one in, one out. >> i get that about 400,000 people leave the country every year. yeah >> we could welcome high qualified, high skilled immigrants to that sort of number who will add value to the economy, put a cap on legal migration and what would it be? it would be one in, one out over a 3 to 5 year period. it would be about what if people say, that's going to cause enormous be about what if people say, that's 1shortages?jse enormous be about what if people say, that's 1shortages?jsewon't.rous labour shortages? it won't. what it is it will increase it would do is it will increase the of british workers and the wages of british workers and it'll get people back to work. it'll make work pay if businesses can afford to pay them more, because the moment them more, because at the moment they're pay 6% more they're having to pay 6% more in corporation tax . corporation tax. >> would you do with >> yes. would you do with corporation tax? >> you should >> we've always said you should cut tax . take it cut corporation tax. take it straight back to 19. one straight back to 19. the one good george did good thing george osborne did bless have bless him was actually have a direction travel 17. direction of travel to 17. we should been towards

should have been heading towards 15. this minister under 15. this prime minister under his watch, he sent it back to 25. it is a disaster. you've got to cut the vast amount of wasteful government spending across all departments, across local authority . local authority. >> you do that in practice, though. >> in practice, it's very simple. everybody in simple. you say to everybody in the way that you do in the same way that you do in business and indeed we're doing with budgets, with our household budgets, right? save £5 in 100. right? i need to save £5 in 100. right? but not touch frontline services and in business, what you say, that or you're fired. >> i know, but who would you bnng >> i know, but who would you bring to in do it? are you talking bringing talking about bringing the private sector? >> actually got bring >> you've actually got to bring in people the in successful people from the private force private sector to force this through. >> still work in >> do they still work in politics, though? these successful were successful people they were working people working with successful people with a track record, with a clear clear conviction , clear vision, clear conviction, i think absolutely. >> like in america, >> like you have in america, it's civic duty to it's part of your civic duty to come and help the country. the country is broken under the tories. labour bankrupt and tories. labour were bankrupt and britain only the reform uk policies will save britain . policies will save britain. >> i just want to return to this issue british overseas issue of british overseas territories. are you territories. why are you reluctant i don't

reluctant to name any? i don't quite understand it because that's thing that's not the key thing is people know is that your people want to know is that your process quickly wherever it is. >> but you haven't decided on where could do it. where they could do it. >> best is britain. >> the best place is in britain. do it in two weeks in britain. >> okay. >> okay. >> can say something which you >> can i say something which you might going to might not like, but i'm going to say anyway. say it anyway. >> it's not the first time, but reform make the reform isn't going to make the headway without nigel headway it needs without nigel farage the helm, it ? the farage at the helm, is it? the more the better . farage at the helm, is it? the more the better. nigel, more help, the better. nigel, he's temporarily engaged elsewhere. >> as we know. >> as we know. >> he could be eating kangaroo testicles as we speak. >> always said i've always >> i've always said i've always said is a huge figure and said nigel is a huge figure and can help a lot. >> so is he going to come back and why is he the and help? why is he in the jungle? is he it for jungle? is he doing it for electoral 2024? electoral success come 2024? >> think? >> do you think? >> do you think? >> it's very clear he's doing it so that young can so that more young people can actually understand? actually see and understand? nigel, as nigel, the personality as opposed they've been opposed to what they've been sort , formed the opposed to what they've been sort that , formed the opposed to what they've been sort that doesn't)rmed the opposed to what they've been sort that doesn't like d the opposed to what they've been sort that doesn't like him?he press that doesn't like him? >> i mean, i don't want to besmirch your very strong leadership but leadership of this party, but you be leading it, you need him to be leading it, don't what the don't you? what i say is the more help, better. more help, the better. >> always if nigel >> i've always said if nigel wants come back into uk wants to come back into uk politics well, look,

politics as leader, well, look, let's not focus on titles. let's focus action and thing focus on action and the thing because was successful, because he was so successful, the party, the real key the brexit party, the real key thing is that the more people who help, the more people who hear about us, the better. but nigel is concerned is first past the post and he and i are completely committed to getting proportional representation. completely committed to getting proportitroubleiresentation. completely committed to getting proportitroubleiresthoughi. completely committed to getting proportitroubleiresthough , it's >> the trouble is, though, it's not a sexy to campaign on first past post it is brexit, past the post as it is brexit, people understand it. people don't understand it. >> thing about is >> and the thing about brexit is that we've technically left that yes, we've technically left , haven't got brexit done , but we haven't got brexit done properly. they properly. pragmatically, they haven't advantage of the haven't taken advantage of the opportunity. going opportunity. if you're going to do a job, do it properly. all the things for stand cutting the things we for stand cutting taxes, regs, taxes, cutting daft regs, cutting are cutting immigration, these are the that people who voted the things that people who voted brexit they know brexit they want and they know that is a mistake will do that it is a mistake will do to call the party reform, know, call the party reform, you know, reclaim respect. >> loads of parties >> there's loads of parties beginning you beginning with r, why don't you just the brexit party? because. because. because it does. because. it acause it does. because. it does; it does. because. it does what)es. because. it does what its. because. it does what it says on the >> it does what it says on the tin. country needs reforming tin. the country needs reforming in many ways. and i love it in so many ways. and i love it when keir starmer says people may to this, but may not like to hear this, but the reform. the nhs needs reform. absolutely. does need absolutely. the nhs does need reform, and frankly,

reform, uk reform and frankly, the country needs reform. does the country needs reform. does the reform need suella braverman ? >> 7- >> have ?_ >> have you 7 >> have you had any conversations? would you have conversations? would you have conversations with the former home secretary? >> asked bring across i >> -- >> i'm not going to give a running commentary on discussions. number discussions. go on with a number of running commentaries. >> you're on the telly. >> you're on the telly. >> it doesn't matter. you can't give commentary. but give a running commentary. but let's number of tory let's be clear a number of tory mps very, very unhappy with mps are very, very unhappy with the the the direction of travel of the tory party, quite rightly, although trouble nigel although the trouble is nigel farage thinks that he might want to the conservative party to join the conservative party at some point in future. at some point in the future. >> never. if the next >> never say never. if the next general they reset general election they reset and realign, i might. that's realign, then i might. that's a bit for reform, isn't bit worrying for reform, isn't it? mischief. it? he loves causing mischief. >> brilliant at he's >> he's brilliant at he's a mischief maker. that's that's the reality is look, he was he was he was on an undercover was like he was on an undercover mission sight at the mission in plain sight at the tory mission in plain sight at the tonbut he has confirmed that >> but he has confirmed that reform is party that he's reform is the party that he's committed he's honorary committed to. he's honorary president lots of president and he's got lots of commitments. but the more help he us, better. he can give us, the better. >> frankly, what tory mp would you welcome if you like to welcome across if not suella than whom? because you a more you might need a bit more

ballast . ballast. >> arguably believe in our values . values. >> well, who would you think? i mean, if suella perfect mean, if suella is perfect for reform, who is running commentary? >> but there are a number of who believe in our values with conviction. they need is conviction. what they need is the to recognise that the courage to recognise that the courage to recognise that the tory brand is toxic. it's finished , it's over. and if they finished, it's over. and if they believe in the country, they should come to reform those that believe our values and we can believe in our values and we can help save britain. >> richard tice thank very >> richard tice thank you very much your time this much indeed for your time this morning. just a minute, morning. now, in just a minute, you'll hear my you'll be able to hear my interview a british father interview with a british father who volunteer with who decided to volunteer with the idf following the 7th of october attacks. he spoke to me from within his military base in the west bank. stay tuned for that.

through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's. through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's . channel gb news is the people's. channel welcome back. >> now, last week i spoke to paul >> now, last week i spoke to paul, who's a british israeli dual national who lives in london. he's a family man. he's got kids. but following the hamas terror attacks on israel on october the 7th, he decided to join up with the idf, the israeli defence force, as a volunteer. full disclosure, i know paul, we've been friends for years, so i was quite shocked when he told me that he'd gone out there to volunteer. he's now serving with the idf in the west bank, and last week, just before the unrest over the remembrance weekend , i spoke to him about weekend, i spoke to him about his military there. to his military base there. due to the anticipate hate the rise in anticipate hate crime we've witnessed in recent

weeks. paul asked that i hide his identity in order to protect his identity in order to protect his family, who are still in london. so we've decided to pixilate his face. i started out by asking him why he felt that was truly necessary . was truly necessary. >> it's a real shame that western civilisation doesn't recognise that the threat in israel involves not just israel but the jews around the world and also the rest of western civilisation. so me being out here is dangerous for my family back in london. >> what motivated you to decide to go out to the west bank and basically put yourself in danger for israel ? for israel? >> all israelis do service . all >> all israelis do service. all israelis have to stand up, unified and defend the country . unified and defend the country. it's the only country we have . it's the only country we have. we have nowhere else to go. if israel is not safe, then all of jews around the world are not safe and it's no good just relying on the current israeli defence forces and whose population who are here. all

jews around the world must stand up and help fight for what is right and for the defence of israel and their own homes. i'm defending my home in london is why i'm here. my children need to understand that . they need to to understand that. they need to understand that as jews they will be targeted. every generation we are targeted and the uk needs to understand that if it's after us, it's the west. that's next. >> and what was the reaction of your family, of your children, when you said you were going out to the west bank? it's difficult for children that have not grown up in israel to understand why their father would go out and put themselves in danger to fight for the for themselves, for the country . for the country. >> so they were pretty upset . it >> so they were pretty upset. it took a while for them to certainly understand it. they've read it in books. certainly understand it. they've read it in books . they know the read it in books. they know the history. they understand the holocaust that we've been through and the birth of israel . through and the birth of israel. but that's all theoretical for this time. the first time me

coming here drove the point home. >> and what's it like out there? what are the conditions like where you are in the west bank? what's morale like . what's morale like. >> so the morale is extremely high. the country is pretty good when it comes to emergency situations. when it comes to war, the country knows what it needs to get done and everyone is unified. but there is a strange combination of still shock and awe and heartbreak of what happened from 7th of october. we need to understand that that can never, ever happen again. we said that about the holocaust and here we are again defending basic people's rights , defending basic people's rights, our rights as jews, to live without being slaughtered and butchered. but the morale is very high. we're based in the west bank, the west bank is a lot safer than it is down in gaza , but there is a lot of work gaza, but there is a lot of work being done to keep the west bank in control and quiet and not allow for hamas groups within the west bank to pretty much do

the west bank to pretty much do the same thing and repeat what happenedin the same thing and repeat what happened in gaza . we deal with happened in gaza. we deal with everything on a civilian basis level and then if there are any military issues, for example , military issues, for example, there are pockets of hamas who sit in the west bank just waiting to cause terror attacks. then obviously we need deal then obviously we need to deal with deal with with those and we deal with those daily are those on a daily basis. we are overseeing civilian overseeing an entire civilian population, we work mostly population, which we work mostly very well with. we have about a million workers that come in from the territories into israel on a peaceful on a regular basis peacefully. and that is a hope, the hope that we have that we can live side by side without any terror organisation or iran trying to foment it and create a terrorist front for us on our borders . so we are hopeful that borders. so we are hopeful that one day we can work together in two different states in peace, but that peace has to come without a price and that price is everybody , our children and is everybody, our children and palestinian children being safe . palestinian children being safe. >> when it comes to what you're seeing back in london, how has

that been making you feel? we've had this row going on about this weekend , whether there should weekend, whether there should have been marches this weekend for remembrance for the for remembrance and for the remembrance commemorations. you'll have seen stories posted by the likes of me on the telegraph about a huge amount of anti—semitic sentiment on the streets. we've seen that not just in london, but around the western world. i recently wrote a story about ucl complaining about anti—semitism on campus , about anti—semitism on campus, even though it was the first university in england to admit jews back in the 19th century. how are you feeling about london right now in israel ? it's hugely right now in israel? it's hugely frustrating because london is my home. >> i love the place . it protects >> i love the place. it protects freedoms. the uk went out to fight isis . freedoms. the uk went out to fight isis. it went out to contain an this fundamentalist brutal anti western civilisation ideology. and yet the uk allows this ideology to breed on the streets of london. this is not just a pro—palestinian march . streets of london. this is not just a pro—palestinian march. in fact, it's not a pro—palestinian march at all. if any of them

cared about the palestinians , cared about the palestinians, they would want israel to destroy hamas. if any of them cared about palestinians, then destroy hamas. if any of them care(wouldn'talestinians, then destroy hamas. if any of them care(wouldn't be ;tinians, then destroy hamas. if any of them care(wouldn't be marching1en destroy hamas. if any of them care(wouldn't be marching at| they wouldn't be marching at all. doesn't all. and what the west doesn't understand is that it's breeding the fundament racism that the exact fundament racism that exists in isis and in hamas today and allowing these marches on the streets . you're educating on the streets. you're educating the next generation that islamic fundamentalism and ideology is strength and they can control what they like. they can walk on the streets freely and they can control. this is a problem the west haven't woken up to. they need to wake up quickly. it's not just israel's front that's fighting. we're fighting for all not just israel's front that's figthe g. we're fighting for all not just israel's front that's figthe westy're fighting for all not just israel's front that's figthe west .'e fighting for all of the west. >> how far are you willing to go? because i know you . you're go? because i know you. you're a businessman. i've always known you to be pretty mild mannered and measured. you've seen the videos of the october, the seventh attacks. i know you have because you've told me that you've seen the extent of hamas's brutality and depravity . hamas's brutality and depravity. i mean, how far are you willing to go here? because you may be required to kill terrorists . you

required to kill terrorists. you may be required to put your life on the line . on the line. >> there isn't even a question . >> there isn't even a question. had israel been around during the holocaust, the holocaust wouldn't have happened. and right now, we are surviving our own mini holocaust with hamas on our border and hezbollah on our border and iran doing everything it can to make life difficult and brutal for us. so yes, we are willing to sacrifice each and every one of our lives, just as in every war we have done that i can't allow for hamas to come in and take my children captive or to sit there for my children to feel, hold on. they not safe in their own homes or they have to watch the stories, they have to watch the stories, the brutal stories , which i'm the brutal stories, which i'm not even going to repeat right now. ever happen . now. that cannot ever happen. and so if it's my life to try and save my children's lives , and save my children's lives, then i think everybody would make that choice. but that's where now . where we are now. >> long do you envisage >> and how long do you envisage being out there ? being out there? >> well, i'll be out here as long as i'm needed. the israeli

idf army are doing a phenomenal job in in winning this war. but this war, again, doesn't just end with hamas. we've got a number of enemies around just waiting to pounce on any weakness that we show. so we're going to be here and we're going to continue until the job is done. >> that's obviously the view from an israeli soldier since the start of the war, we've heard a number of different perspective, including those sympathetic palestinian sympathetic to the palestinian cause. you can, for example, watch a debate between james schneider justin cohen on gb schneider and justin cohen on gb news channel. since news youtube channel. since speaking to paul last week, there has been a rise in tension in west bank. there have in the west bank. there have been of israel's been attacks on some of israel's military and on military bases there. and on friday, israel confirmed that they killed hamas they had killed five hamas members in a raid in jenin. but we have spoken to paul since and he safe. well that's all from he is safe. well that's all from me today. i'll back next week me today. i'll be back next week at 930. michael portillo's up

next good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. >> cocoon yourself in our cosy cafe of culture, art, books and political and ethical debate. starting with politics, has rishi sunak drawn his battle lines for next year's election?

the prime minister pivoted away from populism by ditching his fiery home secretary, suella braverman, and bringing none other than david cameron, now lord cameron, into government as foreign secretary. as sunak banks on experience. is he repudiating the red wall? an excellent panel will address that question. a year ago, a former government adviser, sam richards, set up a campaign group called britain remade with the purpose of making britain build again. the group aims to slash the enormous cost of this country. constructing infrastructure. and sam will assess his organisation's progress . i will mark two other progress. i will mark two other anniversaries on the programme. it's 400 years since two friends of william shakespeare published a collection of 36 of his plays in a book that has become known as the first folio. without it, some of shakespeare's best known works, including macbeth, the tempest and julius caesar, would have been lost . the works have have been lost. the works have hugely influenced the english language on which theme shakespeare and actor ben crystal will soliloquise . it's

crystal will soliloquise. it's now six decades since