ralph shellhammer to discuss what's currently been happening in the dutch elections and how this may have a knock on effect on us at home and how it will affect europe and the wider world. i'll also be joined by alex storey to discuss the current parlous state of democracy itself . and finally, democracy itself. and finally, towards the end, i'll be joined by the ceo of charity restart lives , which annually organises lives, which annually organises a sleepout to raise awareness about the conditions faced by london's rough sleepers and to raise the funds they need to keep up their vital work. all of that and plenty of conversation with my panellist, sociologist, commentator and author frank furedi . but first, an update on furedi. but first, an update on the latest news from . aaron

the latest news from. aaron >> it's 6:00. good evening to you. i'm aaron armstrong . hamas you. i'm aaron armstrong. hamas are delaying the second round of hostage releases until israel commits to letting aid trucks enter northern gaza. that's as reported by the reuters news agency. earlier, hamas gave the israeli government a list of 13 people that would be freed from captivity in gaza, but it has now accused israel of violating the terms of the truce agreement . egyptian authorities have been waiting here for what you can see in your pictures is the rafah border crossing. they are waiting for the hostages to arrive. israel has agreed to release 39 palestinian prisoners . in exchange, prisoners held in this prison on the west bank. thatis this prison on the west bank. that is part of the deal brokered by qatar . it is the brokered by qatar. it is the second of a four day pause in fighting , although the delay is fighting, although the delay is taking place and it's not clear how long that will last. meanwhile, a four year old girl released yesterday after being held captive by hamas told her father she dreamed of coming

home. raz asher , her two year home. raz asher, her two year old sister, aviv , and her old sister, aviv, and her mother, doron, were reunited with yoni asher on friday in the first stage of the israel—hamas deal first stage of the israel—hamas deal. 24 hostages were released . deal. 24 hostages were released. a number of them were taken to the schneider children's hosphal the schneider children's hospital. authorities say they're responding well to treatment. a director of paediatrics, gilad livni , hopes paediatrics, gilad livni, hopes all those being held by hamas will be returned. >> we're very exciting from the first moment that we saw the kids and the parents, the hugs and the crying, and it was very, very exciting for all of us. they are in good condition , they are in good condition, charleton and they are surrounded by our multi disciplinary teams. social workers, psychologists, nurses and doctors . they are surrounded and doctors. they are surrounded by the family , friends, police by the family, friends, police have arrested two people on suspicion of supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation . organisation. >> officers took the action as

tens of thousands of people protested at a pro—palestine march in central london. they say one suspect was seen in trafalgar square wearing a green headband with white arabic script . he had several more in script. he had several more in his possession . another his possession. another protester earlier was arrested on suspicion of inciting racial hatred. he was seen carrying a placard with nazi symbols on it. russia said. kyiv, with the biggest drone attack of the conflict so far. that's to according ukraine's air force. at least five people were injured when shahed drones descended on the capital overnight. explosions were heard across the city as they were intercepted with buildings damaged in multiple districts. ukraine's president, volodymyr zelenskyy, has described the strikes as an act of wilful terror. the former police officer convicted of murdering george floyd has been stabbed at a prison in arizona . that's a prison in arizona. that's according to reports in the us . according to reports in the us. it's understood derek chauvin survived the attack by another inmate on friday, but has been

seriously injured. it comes days after the supreme court rejected his appeal. the 47 year old argued he hadn't received a fair trial. mr chauvin is currently serving multiple sentences for george floyd's death in 2020, which led to widespread protests against police brutality and racism . tonight's expected to be racism. tonight's expected to be the coldest night of the autumn season so far. subzero temperatures across large parts of the country. it comes after many areas experienced their first frost of the year with temperatures falling well below freezing across northwestern england and in the south. temperatures could dip to minus seven, while rural parts of wales could get as low as minus four. the met office says snow could fall next week . and could fall next week. and london's traditional christmas tree has been selected and it stands at an impressive 62ft tall. norway's customary gift to the uk has been felled and it will soon be on its way to the

caphal will soon be on its way to the capital. it grew in forests just north of oslo and will be loaded onto a ship bound for britain. the tree will arrive in central london in next week with the festive lights being switched on on the 7th of december. the norwegian spruce is sent every year as a token of thanks for britain's support during the second world war. well, that's it for the moment from me. i'll be back with more a little bit later. but now it's over to . neil >> children are stabbed in dublin. some dubliners , a riot dublin. some dubliners, a riot in protest at the horror . fires in protest at the horror. fires burn in the city and windows are smashed. garda commissioner drew harris blames the damage on a complete lunatic faction driven by far right ideology . kc far by far right ideology. kc far right. just so we're clear, he would say that, wouldn't he.7 irish would say that, wouldn't he? irish justice minister helen mcentee looked at the fires and said a thuggish and manipulative element must not be allowed to

use an appalling tragedy to wreak havoc. a manipulative element wreaking havoc. oh, the irony . a violent act. an angry irony. a violent act. an angry reaction. and the only actor's authority wants to talk about to condemn and to initiate action against are those lighting fires. the only possible explanation for such a reaction to the stabbing of children. they must be lunatics of the far right. already legislation is rushed through the irish parliament to enable more state surveillance of the populace, more state control of so—called hate speech. do you see the playbook yet? how or why could any sentient being miss it? a person would have to wonder if there's just one copy of the playbook dog eared its playbook dog eared after its ceaseless use by london's metropolitan police and perhaps reluctantly shared , or whether reluctantly shared, or whether multiple copies circulate freely with far right underlined on every page. children bleed and parents weep. protesters take to the streets and politicians and legislators and those they serve, which is not us patient reel in the line. knowing the hookis

reel in the line. knowing the hook is swallowed deep. the barb fixed fast. it's so very hard to resist. after all, the relentless push to hate and to fear for decades, something deliberately disruptive has been forced on the people of the west. there's no denying it . west. there's no denying it. mass immigration. people from all over the world have been thrust together virtually overnight and without any sort of foreplay. before the turn of the century, new labour were apparently glorying in the thought of rubbing our noses in diversity . it ought never to diversity. it ought never to have happened this way, but it was made to happen this way and for a reason by those fearful, cowardly authoritarians desperate for the controls they think will save them from the rest us. what's being done in rest of us. what's being done in europe, to europe these europe, done to europe these years has been less years past has been less advisable than speed dating in the dark with drunk people . and the dark with drunk people. and so you get what we've got . marry so you get what we've got. marry in haste, repent at leisure. not even the most basic due diligence either. so that, along with all the decent human beings, has come some of all the trouble in world. and so by trouble in the world. and so by these means, have people been

made to hate other people? people they don't know? well, all their hate ought properly to be reserved and somehow focussed on those. they do know. those deserving being on the deserving of being on the receiving end of such destructive emotion. familiar faces all cynically stoking the anti—human hatred in pursuit of their masters ends. i have people i love, among them christians, jews, muslims , and christians, jews, muslims, and others besides. or if you prefer westerners, israelis and arabs. are my friends . westerners, israelis and arabs. are my friends. i won't westerners, israelis and arabs. are my friends . i won't hate westerners, israelis and arabs. are my friends. i won't hate on command. everyone i love hates the hate as well . i won't hate the hate as well. i won't hate on command and certainly not on behalf of those who line their pockets and secure their positions by stoking that hatred. and so millions of people have deliberately been made afraid and angry while all that's going on. a former british prime minister, yet another from a grisly cast of characters, each at the head of his own column of countless dead civilians in countless countries . this time, the right honourable sir tony blair renews his old calls for the

introduction of digital ids to solve the problems of all that immigration. tony blair and his ilk want you frightened and filled with hate. then you'll beg for the solution they offer, which is slavery for you and freedom for them. unflushable apparently digital ids and tony blair both blair has done as much as any of the rest of the club of international ghouls to destabilise the middle east and to sow the very unrest that sees tides of people rise and walk away from wherever they were born in search of anything else, anywhere else. if your home and everyone else's home for miles around had been bombed flat, what do ? where would what would you do? where would you go? all over the west, frightened, angry people , frightened, angry people, overwhelmed by changes to their lives and communities. they feel powerless to influence are automatically abused by being labelled names chosen to labelled with names chosen to make them feel isolated. vulnerable lunatics far right all over the world. frightened, angry people are also overwhelmed by fast moving changes. they feel powerless to influence. one war after another

ensures those already on edge stay on edge while simultaneously being told ordered what to think about what they see. millions of people of every creed and colour marched through cities all over the world demanding a ceasefire in gaza and were abused in line with the same old playbook . they with the same old playbook. they are labelled as you'd expect, not pro—peace, just anti this or anti that. in truth , people of anti that. in truth, people of every creed and colour, all over the world are only made to feel powerless. denied any sense of their real power by those who are tirelessly make the mass are tirelessly to make the mass of population feel powerless of the population feel powerless and therefore dependent at all times for their safety and well—being. on those above them in the food chain, out sight in the food chain, out of sight of most that thin sliver of powerful displays a level powerful people displays a level of cynicism that's beyond the comprehension decent folk . comprehension of decent folk. nothing is off limits to ensure the objective who would the objective of those who would do nation states and do away with nation states and the freedom of populations. not even anyone and even children, anyone and everyone's children. children are exploited like tinder to keep the heat unrest , to keep the heat under unrest, to keep the heat under unrest, to keep many people as possible

keep as many people as possible distracted by hatred and suspicion of each other, of their neighbours, rather than focusing fury where belongs focusing fury where it belongs on the that keep stirring on the ghouls that keep stirring the , stoking the fires, and the pot, stoking the fires, and in among it all, what is the word every authority? lips. word on every authority? lips. why? democracy of course. as soon as people any people start realising and manifesting their power in any way , those in power in any way, those in charge prick up their ears. democracy in the west is like the toy steering wheel. a parent fixes to the dashboard of a car to entertain a toddler, making it think it's steering the car when of course it isn't. whenever people find a way to get their feet on the actual pedals, if only momentarily, the hands on actual wheel, those hands on the actual wheel, those in power act quickly to correct any possible oddity of change any possible oddity of a change of direction. look at recent moments when the people grabbed the election of the wheel. the election of donald trump in 2016, the vote for brexit here in the uk, the same year in 2019, people gave the tories an 80 seat majority. the collapse of the red wall and all that jazz . but again, it all that jazz. but again, it brought only swift retribution.

just like the trump presidency and brexit brought swift retribution . i've wondered that retribution. i've wondered that the coincidence of the pandemic and everything else since 2020 and everything else since 2020 and wondered if it wasn't all the punishment being meted out to an upstart populist that dared the wheel. dared to grab the wheel. democracy in the west has been made a fraud and a confidence trick. a and shut used car, trick. a cut and shut used car, a chocolate teapot, an ashtray on a motorbike, snake oil for the gullible. for as long as the present incumbents hold sway, the and women of the the face, men and women of the crime syndicates really running the notion of the show then any notion of democracy, the so—called rule of the people, is what we call in scotland busted flush. too few scotland a busted flush. too few people are angry with the right people are angry with the right people by the right people. people and by the right people. i that i mean the wrong'uns that interconnected , interdependent interconnected, interdependent lot that always crops up. spiders and webs. the many of us are goaded and atomised, split by chaos into smaller and smaller, mutually loathing and mutually suspicious factions , mutually suspicious factions, while the same few get richer laughing at us behind our backs on the way to the bank. they haven't emerging and growing

problem, however , those few the problem, however, those few the pesky people are grasping at the wheel again . in the netherlands, wheel again. in the netherlands, the latest election has given prominence and significance to the pvv, the party for freedom, led by geert wilders , routinely led by geert wilders, routinely and loudly dismissed as far right and extremist at the other end of the world in argentina, the president elect is javier milei, economist and author, and another labelled right wing and popular right populists of the people. how dare the people have what they want? supine journalists obediently squeak the populist word. what they really mean is lumpen scum cast in such politicians and their supporters into hillary clinton's basket of deplorables. implicit in that deliberate corruption of the meaning of populist explicit if you're awake, is that we the people are the problem. the demos are the problem. which means that for the unipart's is the hybrid democrat and republican party. in the us, the hybrid conservative and labour party in the uk democracy itself, what remains of democracy is the

problem. trump's a republican in name only a loner given independence by his billions. robert f kennedy jr is another an outsider with an insiders surname . and yet in the race for surname. and yet in the race for the white house, trump and kennedy are the front runners , kennedy are the front runners, apparently beyond the control of the swamp. vivek ramaswamy is apparently outside the tent too, or at least as far as anyone can tell. even if all of the above are really double agents. the very idea of outsiders is almost spice enough for jaded palates in these decades of bland automatons handed power , as if automatons handed power, as if by right in returning in return for allowing themselves to be compromised enough so they'll hold out hands for hold out their hands for whatever they're given by those really in charge. the intention is us the cliff. is to drive us off the cliff. with that in mind, does anyone really think they'll let the people driving seat ? people into the driving seat? surely what we face is more censorship more down, censorship, more shutting down, more fracturing of society, more atomisation than when democracy itself is demonstrably the last obstacle in the path of the

authoritarians. flimsy, hollowed out shadow of a thing that it is. what is the future of elections? even if they happen courtesy of the uni party bending the knee to unelected, unaccountable entities like the world health organisation and the world economic forum. how can the results even matter? here's the thing while wars rage and people are made to hate, too many are blind to the real enemy joining me tonight is academic. and emeritus professor of sociology , frank ferretti. frank sociology, frank ferretti. frank what is populism and how has it become a pejorative ? become a pejorative? >> well, populism simply means giving voice to the aspiration of the people and historically popular and populist movements were able to somehow capture the emotions and the sensibilities that people really care about.

and because it's a grass roots movement and because it's very often threatens the powers that be, it has become increasingly seen as a threat . but at the seen as a threat. but at the moment it's seen as a threat. then basically everything is done to create a playbook whereby the populists or people who see themselves as populist are framed in such a way as to demonise and criminalise them. but when you look around , i but when you look around, i think the really important thing is, is that for better or worse , is, is that for better or worse, despite all the setbacks that we've suffered, there are groups and political movements all over europe who are kicking back. i mean , i've been travelling up mean, i've been travelling up and down europe recently, and you go to france, you go to italy, you go to holland and belgium , and there are a belgium, and there are a minority of people who have formed political parties who are in a sense demanding to be heard. and we are living in a very special moment because the mainstream parties understand that they can no longer take for granted that they're running the show. and that's why it's so

dangerous at the moment in terms of the future. >> is there any anything ideologically in common between those disparate groups across europe, or are they all populist in their own contexts for their own reasons ? own reasons? >> as you raise a very important problem , which is that what we problem, which is that what we have are people who have been moved to react to their circumstance basically people who argue that they want to be part of the conversation. they want to be taken seriously. that's what they're saying. but at the moment, what's really lacking political lacking is the political ideology , or at least a sense of ideology, or at least a sense of political direction which could give that power , positive give that power, positive energy, that that is there a real direction. so therefore, you have a situation where all over europe people are mobilising, they're organising, they don't even call themselves populists . they have all kinds populists. they have all kinds of names that they've adopted. but what they have, the one thing that they have in common is aspiration is solidarity. the aspiration for solidarity really for solidarity that we really belong to a community. and the

other thing that they have in common they demand to be common is that they demand to be heard. and that's very heard. and that's a very positive development you positive development because you cannot democracy cannot have democracy until people voice . people find their voice. >> is there anything unprecedented about what's happening at the moment? and presumably there have always been people who have reflected or given voice to the people, but is there something different happening now? >> i think there is one big difference, which is that for the first time since the second world war, the mainstream political parties, christian democracy and italy's social democracy and italy's social democracy , labour here, the democracy, labour here, the conservative parties, all these parties have lost their legitimacy. if you look at these parties, they're they're barely having any serious members or activists anymore . these are activists anymore. these are zombie parties that are able to perpetuate themselves because of their access to power. and because the legitimacy has has been lost by these parties. what you have is a big political vacuum , which creates an vacuum, which creates an opportunity because the

political landscape is now far more open than before. and the first important blow against the ruling elites in europe was the election of meloni in italy, because for a very , very because for a very, very reverse, she was labelled as far right, even fascistic . but yet right, even fascistic. but yet when you go to italy, people love her because she speaks their voice . and since that time their voice. and since that time we had a lot of rebellions in sweden in france, in holland . i sweden in france, in holland. i remember going to holland very recently and talking to the farmers who've been organising against the attempt to drive them off the land by various environmental ngos . and they environmental ngos. and they tell me that, you know, we're we're in this for the long run. we're not going to give up tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. this is our lives because if we're driven off the land, it isn't just losing a job, it's losing a way of life. and i think kind of and i think that kind of sentiment is widespread . and sentiment is widespread. and i find extremely find that extremely inspirational, that there are people for the first time doing this. >> i was speaking to a friend in in the netherlands very, very

excited and upbeat about what's happened with the pvv because that's a group and an individual really, who was derided and an outlier until very recently. and suddenly 1 in 4 dutch voters have voted for that party. and that man, well, not just 1 in 4, but you know, usually it's argued that it's the old people that vote for the right or the vote for movements like that . vote for movements like that. >> if you look at the statistics , six the majority of high school students said that they prefer the pvv to any other party, a disproportionate number of young people voted for this. and also very importantly , and also very importantly, unlike anywhere else, like in england or elsewhere, whereas a big urban and rural divide in holland, even people in the big urban areas voted for the pvv because for the first time they argued they could see that it was it's necessary. it's a it's a it's an emergency as far as they're concerned , which has they're concerned, which has been really exacerbated by the war in israel, because what even

a lot of liberal dutch people are saying, we don't want something that happened to the israelis to occur in our country, go to get a break at the moment. >> frank, thank you for that. so far after the break, veteran anti islam populist leader geert wilders has won a dramatic victory in the dutch general election with almost all votes counted. win has shaken, has counted. his win has shaken, has shaken dutch politics and will send a shock wave across europe as i'll joined by ralph as well. i'll be joined by ralph schollhammer, assistant professor in political science and to discuss this and economics, to discuss this in detail. don't in more detail. don't go anywhere

business enterprises . business enterprises. >> you're listening to gb news radio . welcome back. radio. welcome back. >> so what does the wilders win mean for europe? my first guest this evening is ralph schollhammer , an academic and schollhammer, an academic and political commentator , to political commentator, to contemplate the implications . contemplate the implications. and ralph hopefully joins me now down the line. are you there,

ralph? >> i am there. can you hear me? meal? >> i can. i could do a little bit more volume on ralph. if someone can turn ralph up a little bit. uh, ralph, what do you think the result means? the result for the pvpve result means for the imminent future of the netherlands ? the netherlands? >> well, i think for the netherlands it's probably going to be now a significant number of months where they try to form a government. it is not yet clear if god wilders will pull off becoming prime minister because he needs the cooperation with at least 3 to 4 other parties. but what is really crucial is that this is the first time in a western european country, as opposed to right wing populist party came in first after italy slightly different. so as we would say, the dykes have broken. and i think this is the real significant event that is going on here. >> do you think what's happened with wilders and pw will have consequence impacts elsewhere in europe? does it fire a starting pistol for something else ?

pistol for something else? >> oh, yes, absolutely . there is >> oh, yes, absolutely. there is very often the comparison when people talk about europe , right. people talk about europe, right. it's like the 1920s, the 1930. but that's an absurd comparison. geert wilders is not a fascist . geert wilders is not a fascist. that's entirely ridiculous. but i think what is a good comparison would be 1848. five, right, 1848 was a revolutionary yearin right, 1848 was a revolutionary year in europe. and i think europe has entered pre—revolutionary territory . now pre—revolutionary territory. now you have an elite that is unwilling to give up the status, as you said in your introductory remarks, the unie parties, they cling to the status quo and underneath them you have all these different movements. now that that pop up, as dr. freddy said before, right? some of them have different names . they have have different names. they have different ideologies. you different ideologies. and you see now spreading from see this now spreading from eastern to western eastern europe to western europe. see it dublin , europe. you see it in dublin, right? you see that all these different areas. so i think we are in pre—revolutionary quasi are in a pre—revolutionary quasi 1848 and it's unclear . 1848 moment and it's unclear. different countries will come to different solutions and there will be different movements. but this against a status this uprising against a status

quo, maintaining elite , i think quo, maintaining elite, i think thatis quo, maintaining elite, i think that is definitely something that's to spread over the that's going to spread over the next of years. that's going to spread over the nex for of years. that's going to spread over the nex for me, of years. that's going to spread over the nex for me, i)f years. that's going to spread over the nexfor me, i don'trs. that's going to spread over the nexfor me, i don't know what that's going to spread over the nex for me, i don't know what you >> for me, i don't know what you think, but i think it's important, vital to notice, to be aware that what has happened in europe , it it was it was made in europe, it it was it was made to happen. it didn't happen by itself . you know, the sudden itself. you know, the sudden influx of people, you know, it's not necessarily the new people's fault. you know, they were they were they're on the move as well for reasons beyond their control. also you know, we ought to be mindful to look up for the answers to who made this happen and not each other. >> no, i agree. and let's not forget one thing. let me bring in some optimism into this conversation. the whole point of democracy is that it is anti status quo. the whole idea that you have the people voicing their opinions, that you have their opinions, that you have the possibility to change the political direction without changing the entire political

system. that is the strength of democracy . there is this idea democracy. there is this idea that we all have to vote for labour or the tories or that we have to vote for the conservatives or social democrats. that's true . democrats. but that's not true. that's democracy is that's not what democracy is about. idea of about. the very idea of democracy is that if the people are dissatisfied, they can form new movements and they can give them allegiance then them their allegiance and then they or they either have to deliver or they either have to deliver or they disappoint . and this is the they disappoint. and this is the situation that had. wilders they disappoint. and this is the situtfind that had. wilders they disappoint. and this is the situtfind himself had. wilders they disappoint. and this is the situtfind himself in.i. wilders they disappoint. and this is the situtfind himself in. so iilders will find himself in. so honestly, listen what honestly, don't listen to what everybody is a life everybody says. this is a life sign of democracy. i mean, what do you want? do you want people sign of democracy. i mean, what do have want? do you want people sign of democracy. i mean, what do have the t? do you want people sign of democracy. i mean, what do have the opportunityant people sign of democracy. i mean, what do have the opportunity to people sign of democracy. i mean, what do have the opportunity to voteyle to have the opportunity to vote for parties or do want for other parties or do you want them have revolution in them to have the revolution in them to have the revolution in the street? i mean, i don't think that the latter one is entirely out of the out the entirely out of the out of the possible. but rather have possible. but i rather have changings changes at the changings or changes at the voting then change voting booth and then change that for the that makes life better for the people force them to go people than to force them to go into streets. into the streets. >> frank ferreira, what do you make a lifeline for make of that? a lifeline for democracy this idea that democracy that this idea that it's a this is a hopeful sign short of bloody, flaming revolution ? revolution? >> well, it is. i mean, without a doubt. for the first time in

my life that i've seen a trend crystallising whereby a lot of people that were voiceless beforehand are taking themselves seriously and are organising and doing stuff . and these are not doing stuff. and these are not university educated and professors and university educated activists. these are people, ordinary people, who've decided that enough is enough . decided that enough is enough. and, you know, the thing about democracy that people forget is that when democracy was invented , it was preceded by the development of hatred for democracy . anti—democratic democracy. anti—democratic theories precede needed democratic theories because the greek elites hated the demos . greek elites hated the demos. and in many ways, you know, the pathologization of populists actually begins in greece. and that theme of trying to, in a sense , undermine democracy sense, undermine democracy continues to this day. and i think what ralph is really saying is that the end of the day, the only weapon we have that could actually bring things forward is democracy. so we have to take democracy very seriously and push it as far as possible .

and push it as far as possible. >> ralph, to come back to you, obviously , millie in argentina obviously, millie in argentina is a very different place , a is a very different place, a different circumstances and a different circumstances and a different context. but is that also at the other end of the world, part of this same picture that you're talking about, that frank for eddie's talking about? i think so. >> and i think that's what they share in common is kind of this idea of doing something new, even though some gradations are different now about melee in argentina , what i think is argentina, what i think is really important is that he has realised it's not just the other parties or the parties in power. there is a permanent bureaucracy thatis there is a permanent bureaucracy that is really what we have to overcome because this is also a problem for wilders. this is the problem for wilders. this is the problem for wilders. this is the problem for meloni. this is the problem for meloni. this is the problem for meloni. this is the problem for every quote unquote populist that comes into power that there are many , many that there are many, many agencies that are entirely unaccountable the electorate unaccountable to the electorate and they will just grind on it doesn't matter for them who is in power there's this in power right? there's this famous it was famous saying, i think it was edgar said he doesn't edgar hoover who said he doesn't care who president under him.

care who is president under him. and we have one j. and now we don't have one j. edgar we have like ten edgar hoover. we have like ten 100 j. edgar hoover's, you know, every, know, leader of an every, you know, leader of an agency. they pretty much can do what they want because they're not accountable to anyone. so we need and think this is where need and i think this is where millie in right millie goes in the right direction. you quote direction. you need a quote unquote, i'm being deliberately provocative, purge of the provocative, a purge of the bureaucracy . kc right. you need bureaucracy. kc right. you need to kind of you need to get certain people out if you want to do something new. it's not just the people on top. it's also the people along the line down entire bureaucratic down the entire bureaucratic institutions. it is it's institutions. and it is it's ultimately always the responsibility of the of the people . people. >> i very impressed by a >> i was very impressed by a line in recent speech by line in a recent speech by millie he said that millie where he said that he hadnt millie where he said that he hadn't guide lambs but hadn't come to guide lambs but to lions and i think that to awaken lions and i think that kind of rhetoric is very potent because people have to be reminded of their innate power as individuals and collectively, andifs as individuals and collectively, and it's manifest in democracy . and it's manifest in democracy. >> it is. and i think you pointed to something because we

have to be very careful if we don't allow this quote unquote, populists and their opinions and their views to have an impact in a system, people will a democratic system, people will turn to really undemocratic politicians. we haven't seen a true fascist in europe for decades , but i will not rule out decades, but i will not rule out that they will appear at some point and then we'll see. you know, then you can really have the mussolini like figures, you know, hitler like figures know, the hitler like figures and would completely and that would be a completely different game. but those different ball game. but those charismatic exist charismatic individuals do exist . we really want to avoid . so if we really want to avoid that from happening, need to that from happening, we need to give these voices as freud give these voices as dr. freud has accurately described , the has accurately described, the chance speak within the chance to speak within the democratic because democratic system, because otherwise look otherwise they will look for representing lives outside the democratic system . democratic system. >> demagogue is >> absolutely. the demagogue is always there waiting for an opportunity. ralph schollhammer , opportunity. ralph schollhammer, as always, thank you so much for your insight. we'll speak again soon. thank you. another break, after which i'll be joined by the british former rower and sometime conservative party candidate alex story to discuss what this win may mean for the rest of europe and indeed the

world. don't go anywhere .

>> you're listening to gb news radio . radio. >> welcome back to neil oliver live my next guest, alex story , live my next guest, alex story, is perhaps best known to many for his role as part of the british men's rowing eight at the 1996 olympic games in atlanta . but after that career, atlanta. but after that career, he turned to politics. he has stood as a conservative candidate on more than one occasion, and he now lives in salzburg. and as well as working in finance, is a regular contributor uk news contributor to uk news publications . alex joins me now . publications. alex joins me now. alex, you've been listening to the conversation. so far. the parlous democracy or parlous state of democracy or not? where do we go from here? what would you see as the way ahead ? ahead? >> and well, the way i like to think about it, i'd like to think about it, i'd like to think in framework. and i think the you your previous guest talked about the permanent

bureaucracy. i think once we make observations and we pinpoint the problem, we have to we have to focus on those. i think the first one is the permanent funding issue is something that we as citizens have to deal with. we have to find a way of deal financing these organisations who have claimed for themselves a power that they've taken away from us, which is the power to regulate the power to legislate, whether on things, whether we like them or not. and the other thing is it leads to this power that they've got through that permanent financing is expediency. they no longer care about principles because principles is act as a constraint . and constraint is constraint. and constraint is something that the that works against the plan that they might have. so that's the second point. the third one is what we need to combat is this this obvious double standard that has developed over the course of time. most of us keep mentioning it. we keep saying that there is

a double standard, but it points to something very, very, very deep. to something very, very, very deep . and that, in my view, is deep. and that, in my view, is the creation of a caste system. and we see the caste system in full display. we had the commission on racial equality, you know, a year or so ago, which was actually a very good document that shows that at the bottom of the caste system that we've created in britain , you we've created in britain, you have poor white working man, have the poor white working man, boy girl. they are no longer boy and girl. they are no longer relevant and they're no longer relevant and they're no longer relevant because what they represent is , is a is represent is, is a is a worldview that the permanent bureaucracy, the permanent funded apparatus of the state has essentially rejected. >> frank , i think you mentioned >> frank, i think you mentioned in your opening remark the idea that the unipart's are zombified for want of ideology and that seems to chime with what alex is saying about, you know, an absence of principle . absence of principle. >> it is they are running on empty. and because they're running what they've running on empty, what they've doneis running on empty, what they've done is they've created a

network of institutions which begin with with a non—governmental organisation who are very powerful people don't realise how powerful they are all the way to a variety of parastatal bodies who are not legally in a position that they should be, which they haven't got the authority of being accountable. all the way to international organisations . and international organisations. and so therefore what you've got is a an institutional framework which offers a permanent excuse to any politician who can say it's not my responsibility. i wasn't responsible for making this decision . it was this this decision. it was this expert, this was this international organisation or the national. where did this policy come from ? it was and policy come from? it was and they used the word, oh , it was they used the word, oh, it was our stakeholders, you know, who determined what the stakeholders are invariably people who are their mates, who they've kind of ianed their mates, who they've kind of invited to become, you know, to brief them and to develop all these different policies. so this is a network that is not based on ideology . it is based based on ideology. it is based upon the fact that they actually

they do believe one thing, the thing that they do believe in is that they're better than we are and they use the expression that's that's the giveaway expression . one is we are to expression. one is we are to here raise awareness. have you heard that expression ? we're heard that expression? we're raising your awareness. so the implication is we are the aware and you and i are idiots who need to have our awareness raised. and i think that that's that sense of superiority is something that they cultivate all the even though it's all the time, even though it's not based on anything substantial . substantial. >> to me, there's something >> alex to me, there's something crucial in the in crucial actually in the way in which populism and populist, they've become pejorative as i see hope in that i see that the whoever it is we're up against it are plainly aware of and acknowledging the threat of the people. you know , they do see people. you know, they do see that with, say, with the pvv and with with millais and argentina and with other populist groups rising across europe that that finally they may be confronting or confronted by a meaningful

challenge. >> well , i challenge. >> well, i think there's hope and there is there is danger because . the referendum in 2016 because. the referendum in 2016 has been seen by this group of people as the last time that the people as the last time that the people will be asked anything sensible and serious. >> they have learned their lesson and it's very much what i remember growing up thinking learning which i think is wrong. the view from the people who were for the league of nations pre the second world war and for the un afterwards. is that democracy was the source of war in europe because that's the way that adolf hitler got came to power. so the idea that democracy is bad because of adolf hitler's rise to power was deeply ingrained in this anti—democratic view of the world, which was people like salter, bureaucrats in the uk

and in belgium, german ney and people like that who despised democracy because it was a brake on a new world which would be simplified . and it was the simplified. and it was the recreation of a kind of a of charlemagne's roman empire or the empire of. charlemagne's roman empire or the empire of . the ninth the empire of. the ninth century. and so what you have is , is a group of people who have visions of grandeur. they want to rebuild rome and they see these pesky nationalists with their languages, their cultures, their languages, their cultures, their religions as the brake on their religions as the brake on their on their formidable vision of a of a beautiful past. >> i just say that there's a big lie here because if hitler didn't get elected , it wasn't didn't get elected, it wasn't democracy that got hitler into power. in fact, at the very last election, he actually lost a lot of votes when aiden at the time. so it was a coup d'etat, something that was profoundly anti democratic. >> i'm not i'm not blaming democracy, but but the point i'm making is that this the what we have to what we have to be what

we have to understand is that their power wants challenge . their power wants no challenge. and that's the important thing. and that's the important thing. and what they see in us in these rebellions at the ballot box is a further reason to constrain democracy and to stultify it . democracy and to stultify it. and so the danger is simply that they will pass this to the to they will pass this to the to the permanent bureaucracy, ever more powers , and they'll defang more powers, and they'll defang parliaments increasingly. that's right. in order to make sure that the only thing that a parliament is there for is just to when a regulation is being passed so that the popular the people can tell us where the shoe pinch is. right. >> which is which is why they also hit the nation. they hate democracy and the nation because a democracy can only function within a nation itself, which is why what they really like is federalism or a little empire. that's their big objective all the time. >> alex, what do you make of the role of mass migration in this? >> because i as i've said

earlier today and i've said before, what's happened did not happen by itself . you know, this happen by itself. you know, this this sudden change to the to the demography that's been that's that's been imposed upon europe is it is that being used and are these the factionalised and the hatreds between people? are they being exploited and to compromise the power of the people to stop any unity crystallising ? crystallising? >> well, there are two things that say about that. there's one which is the dumb mechanism of economic theory. and they'll go very quickly into this. it's economists would say that growth comes from two things. one is productivity . and the other productivity. and the other thing is , is population growth. thing is, is population growth. so that's the way that an economist looks at where the where growth comes from. 50% productivity, 80, 50% population growth . of course, on the 50,

growth. of course, on the 50, which first of all, in nature, nothing is equally split. so you can already rubbish the theory , can already rubbish the theory, but it's very important to realise that this completely embedded in the way that our governments see the origination of growth. so the first one is difficult because it requires education, it requires infrastructure, it requires strategy . but the other one, strategy. but the other one, population growth , that's a lot population growth, that's a lot eafien population growth, that's a lot easier. the only thing you need to do is to open the borders and forget about controlling them. what you want in order to have gdp growth going up is population growth. that's the easiest way to get that city number. that is completely meaningless to go up. but it's really important for the political class because that's the way they, at the very least, done with scant consideration for the impact that it had on the people. >> but i'm going to alex, i'm going to have to go to a break. i'm purely run out of time. thank you so much for that. this evening, though, alex story.

thank coming up thank you for that. coming up after the break, something completely i'll be completely different. i'll be chatting homeless charity completely different. i'll be chattirthe homeless charity completely different. i'll be chattirthe problems ess charity completely different. i'll be chattirthe problemsess charity on about the problems that those on the the nights the streets face as the nights turn darker and colder. don't go away

welcome back . once more, my welcome back. once more, my final guest this evening. well, something of a christmas angel. she's here to talk about what we can do to help those on the streets this winter. imagine, if you will, being homeless, cold and hungry with no hope of a better future. well the charity restart lives is doing all it can and what it can to make those lives better for those people. a little bit of brightness. i'm joined now by catherine flay, the ceo of restart lives. good evening. thanks so much for having me . thanks so much for having me. how did you get involved with this work so it's a bit of a personal story in a way.

>> my family , you know, we >> my family, you know, we experienced some of the struggles that some people experience. we were never rough sleeping like that, sleeping or anything like that, but i understand how some of the causes of homelessness can really affect a family and what can happen there. and i had experience working in another organisation a link, organisation with a link, charitable trust . so some of the charitable trust. so some of the sort of back end knowledge charitable trust. so some of the sort a back end knowledge charitable trust. so some of the sort a charity nd knowledge charitable trust. so some of the sort a charity worksywledge charitable trust. so some of the sort a charity works wasjge charitable trust. so some of the sort a charity works was there . how a charity works was there. but that's kind of drew me but that's what kind of drew me to cause. and of course i to the cause. and of course i see people sleeping see so many people sleeping rough all the time and rough in london all the time and i've been involved in volunteering. so it's kind of a yeah, a mixture of reasons. volunteering. so it's kind of a yeasoa mixture of reasons. volunteering. so it's kind of a yeaso whatture of reasons. volunteering. so it's kind of a yeaso whatture of r> we've just had one really big resources fair. we're doing another one in december. people who are outside, we can who are stuck outside, we can give shelter bags, sleeping give them shelter bags, sleeping bags, other warm clothes, bags, coats, other warm clothes, even emergency little brick phones. so they can access emergency services if they need those. but we'll also continue

to do everything we can to get people off the streets. so whether that's emergency referrals to hostels to via street links, some people will know about streetlink or whether that's just continuing working one on one to sustainably bring people out of homelessness into accommodation and supporting themselves . we'll keep going. themselves. we'll keep going. >> frank it feels to me i don't know about you that it's just a forever problem, isn't it? it feels though there will feels as though there will always that we always be those figures that we walk past out on the street and we're in the full knowledge that that's where they are living their lives the street. their lives on the street. >> well, it does, but we mustn't give up because very often there are problems in society that just have been there forever . just have been there forever. and you look at it and you see, well, what the hell can i do in this situation? and the impulse very often is to switch off to look at your shoelaces, to walk by and pretend this isn't really happening. but if you do that, we lose our soul. we lose our sense of community and solidarity . and for me , looking

solidarity. and for me, looking after the homeless is as much part of creating a community as looking after our neighbour or anybody else. so i think let's do it . do it. >> amazing. >> amazing. >> yeah. and i think you're doing a sleep out. >> we are doing a big sleep out. yeah. so 1st of december, it's a huge event. we're trying to raise awareness, first of all. so obviously if you sleep on the streets for one night, which is what we'll be doing, which is what we'll be doing, which is what we're inviting people to do, you don't know what it's like to be homeless. no but it's a little bit of a sense. this is what it's like to sleep on a street on a cold december night in london. yes. you'll be going home and yes , we've got security home and yes, we've got security guards. you know, it's a different environment, but it's a little bit of awareness raising. we're trying to raising. and we're trying to raise vital funds, you're raise vital funds, as you're doing and how many people do >> yeah. and how many people do you think will be taking part? >> anywhere between 40 >> maybe be anywhere between 40 and 60? >> would be safe to take part ? >> would be safe to take part? yeah. we've closed a road. it's kind at the back of harrods.

kind of at the back of harrods. it's crazy . it's crazy. >> finding solution to >> finding a solution to homelessness sounds like the labour sisyphus to me because labour of sisyphus to me because there be many reasons to there must be as many reasons to be there are be homeless as there are homeless people. every homeless people. yeah, every single person must have a unique i >> -- >> yeah. >> yeah. >> backstory . how do you how do >> backstory. how do you how do you how do you go about fixing for all of those unique individuals? it sounds herculean and it is hard. >> yeah , i can't deny that it's >> yeah, i can't deny that it's hard. and i think like, it depends if , hard. and i think like, it depends if, if there was a sort of there are different political models for how you might end homelessness. other countries like if you look at a country like if you look at a country like finland, they do housing first. so they say , we don't first. so they say, we don't want anybody to be sleeping on the street. if we find someone who is sleeping on the street, they're offered a place indoors. just like that . in this country, just like that. in this country, we don't do that. and we know we have a social housing crisis. so charities like ours are left kind of trying to plug the gaps. we can't just magic a house out of nowhere. so that's not a solution then. so we try and work really 1 1 with people.

work really 1 to 1 with people. we do a lot 1 to work really 1 to 1 with people. wedoalot 1to1 work really 1 to 1 with people. we do a lot 1 to 1 casework, we do a lot of 1 to 1 casework, which is where we'll sit down with somebody and talk to them about how have they found themselves situation and themselves in that situation and what do they perceive the barriers are to making progress in life and supporting in their life and supporting themselves and reading themselves again. and reading between the lines, what do we perceive those barriers as as well? and make an individual well? and we make an individual plan them. plan with them. >> it getting better in >> is it getting better in london now? >> are there more or fewer people on the street ? people on the street? >> there are more people on the streets. so i think in the last ten years it's been a 54% increase in in homelessness . in increase in in homelessness. in the last year it was around just over 10,000 people actually sleeping rough . and homelessness sleeping rough. and homelessness is a bigger definition than that. that's the worst. you know, the worst cases of homelessness. people might be sofa surfing. they might be staying with relatives, but who knows how long that can go on for. it's incredibly precarious. so legally they're classed as homeless as well. and that number greater. number would be much greater. >> harrowing, isn't it, >> that is harrowing, isn't it, that getting and more that it's getting more and more as as we advance into the

as we as we advance into the 21st century with everything else that's going on. >> are more people on the >> there are more people on the streets. >> there are more people on the street that because there are >> is that because there are more people coming into this country, or it because of country, or is it because of economic problems by economic problems faced by people england ? people living here in england? >> think , you know, suella >> so i think, you know, suella braverman comments, one of the things she said is lots of these people in tents are foreign. >> we know that the majority of people sleeping . people sleeping. >> i'm going to have to i'm going to have to go to the. >> okay. but thank you so much. thank you. i hope it all goes well for you. >> thank you so much for having me. >> that's all for me on saturday night live. thanks to all my guests. now it's the saturday five. >> hello there. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. i'm snell. well, tonight i'm craig snell. well, tonight it's dry and it's going to be another dry and cold frosty one for most of cold and frosty one for most of us. a bit of a change out towards the west and that's all courtesy front. courtesy of this weather front. that's to in that's just going to bring in some cloud and rain as the night goes high pressure goes on. but with high pressure generally charge across much generally in charge across much of uk, clear skies, it's of the uk, clear skies, it's a perfect recipe for a widely frosty night across the uk.

still a bit a breeze down the still a bit of a breeze down the eastern seaboard. so here actually temperatures will just stay and then stay just above freeze and then later as we start to see this later on as we start to see this cloud rain move in, cloud and rain move in, temperatures recover temperatures will recover towards so as we start towards the west. so as we start sunday morning, we could just see a few mist and freezing fog patches around, but will patches around, but they will quickly we'll just quickly clear and we'll just start to see this of cloud start to see this area of cloud and rain just gradually spread its little further its way a little bit further eastwards. so sunshine turning increasingly many increasingly hazy across many eastern staying eastern areas, but staying largely dry here as the day goes on. best of the sunshine up across parts of northern and eastern scotland. the far eastern scotland. but the far north seeing a few north actually just seeing a few outbreaks of rain. temperatures in the west a little bit higher than they will be today, but still on the cold side for the time of year into monday, a bit of a grey, damp start across many parts of the uk, some sunshine across western scotland and northern ireland. that will spread its way a little bit further southwards the day

>> it's saturday night and this is the saturday five. i'm darren grimes , along with albie grimes, along with albie amankona benjamin butterworth, conor tomlinson and a new voice on the show, the brilliant lewis mcclatchey miller . tonight on mcclatchey miller. tonight on the show, the 2016 revolt ain't over yet. >> time to end the scourge of anti—semitism, mass migration is anti—semitism, mass migration is a betrayal of british people . a betrayal of british people. >> why did gen z want to ban the bible and why britain needs to get building no matter what the moaners say, it's 7 pm. and this is the . saturday five. this is the. saturday five. >> welcome to the saturday five. the very best saturday night takeaway that you could possibly order. expect fiery debate, spicy opinions and a huge topping of fun every week. join alby, benjamin and myself along with guest stars. tonight it's conor tomlinson and louis

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