>> good morning to you. thank you for joining >> good morning to you. thank you forjoining me >> good morning to you. thank you for joining me this sunday. welcome to the camilla tominey show. another hectic week in westminster. we've seen the autumn statement, which of course , did give workers a course, did give workers a national insurance cut but left us with the highest tax burden since the second world war. the office for national statistics has released figures this week showing migration had showing that net migration had hit record level . of 745,000 hit a record level. of 745,000 in 2022. should that figure come down and how.7 and this weekend, a humanitarian pause is allowed for the release of some of the israeli hostages. in return for palestinian prisoners being held in israeli prisons. we've got a

range of top guests, as ever to talk you through all of that. i'm going to be joined by the home office minister laura farris. how are the government going to bring down those sky high net migration figures? i'll also be speaking senior tory also be speaking to senior tory tobias ellwood for his thoughts on the middle east. we'll get a labour view, of course, as ever from steve mccabe. he chairs the labour israel , so labour friends of israel, so we'll have something we'll no doubt have something to say colleagues. say about his colleagues. constant demands for a ceasefire. littlewood , who ceasefire. mark littlewood, who runs liz truss's favourite think tank, the iea , will give us his tank, the iea, will give us his reaction to the autumn statement. and i'm going to be joined by benjamin netanyahu's ally , the senior israeli ally, the senior israeli politician ariella shaked, the former israeli justice minister and home secretary so as i said, and home secretary so as i said, a jam packed show after a jam packed week. let's have a look at the newspapers now with sam lister, daily express's political editor. sam, lovely to see you this morning. i mean, as we would expect, because of those migration figures coming in in the week , the front pages in in the week, the front pages are talking about rwanda once

again sunday express, your sister paper, the front page stop, boats or we're sunk. stop, small boats or we're sunk. and the sunday telegraph talking to this row that seems to have erupted between the foreign secretary, james cleverly and the immigration minister, robert jenrick. is it a bigger problem for the tories that they haven't stopped the boats or that the legal migration figure is so high a record high in fact , that high a record high in fact, that i think it's i think with the small boats , it's a very small boats, it's a very physical symbol of the issue. >> and so people can actually see people crossing the channel illegally on the small boats that that really is a problem for the conservatives and i think in many ways they have to make headway on that. first, the legal migration is obviously huge, but it's the breaching of the borders that people can physically see that is the real problem for them. on the doorstep. >> when you hear from your readers, are you saying that they are more angry about kind of crossings, of illegal channel crossings, but particularly but they can't be particularly happy these figures? i happy about these figures? i mean, million to the mean, adding 10 million to the

population 2010 is population since 2010 is extraordinary, it? extraordinary, isn't it? >> it's huge. it's huge . and i >> it's huge. it's huge. and i think also when people voted for brexit, they voted to take back control, didn't they? and they wanted to see control of our borders and they wanted to see control of who's coming in and out of the country. now, the government would say, have government would say, we have got we've a points got control. we've got a points based system. we choose who comes and but people did comes in and out. but people did not brexit to the not vote for brexit to see the figures going and up and up figures going up and up and up in this way. obviously since in this way. and obviously since 2010, the conservatives have promised bring down legal promised to bring down legal migration to the tens of thousands. >> remember that pledge. >> we remember that pledge. david cameron, may david cameron, theresa may not sure happened sure what happened to it. >> it's been been >> it's been it's been readjusted recent years >> it's been it's been retlowerzd recent years >> it's been it's been retlower the recent years >> it's been it's been retlower the number. int years >> it's been it's been retlower the number. it years >> it's been it's been retlower the number. i don'ts to lower the number. i don't think they now stick to the tens of thousands pledge. but actually all we've since actually all we've seen since that point that it goes up that point is that it goes up and up up and that is a real and up and up and that is a real problem for them. >> row, this row >> and this tory row, this row going in cabinet between going on in cabinet between cleverly me cleverly and jenrick. tell me a bit about that then. we think that robert jenrick is kind of the standing on behalf the last man standing on behalf of in the absence of of the right in the absence of suella braverman trying

suella braverman in trying to push rwanda plan to push for this rwanda plan to take literally and take off literally and figuratively. then you've take off literally and figujamesy. then you've take off literally and figujames cleverly, n you've take off literally and figujames cleverly, who u've take off literally and figujames cleverly, who is e take off literally and figujames cleverly, who is used got james cleverly, who is used i won't use the language on a sunday but sort of sunday morning, but he sort of described rwanda plan as described the rwanda plan as lacking. he's also it seems lacking. and he's also it seems to be sceptical about the idea of people overseas. of processing people overseas. >> yeah, it's very interesting because rishi sunak robert jenrick ins the office as a jenrick ins the home office as a kind of almost somebody to temper suella braverman and actually from discussions i've had, i think when robert jenrick went into that department, he was quite liberal when it came to immigration. he saw what was happening first hand and has now become very radical it. now become very radical on it. now the true the same is true for james cleverly in that conservative mp told me that he went into the home office, into the foreign office and he's been captured by the officials in the foreign office. so he's become very liberal. so you've got this war the home office now war in the home office now between cleverly between james cleverly and robert secretaries of robert jenrick secretaries of state captured by their state getting captured by their department seems to be like a running sore going throughout the last administration and

beyond . beyond. >> and the prime minister has spoken , sam. he's spoken to the spoken, sam. he's spoken to the mail sunday. what's he said ? mail on sunday. what's he said? >> he's talking. he's talking about the autumn statement. how? well, that's gone. he's talking about he intends to bring about how he intends to bring down legal migration. it's quite a ranging interview. he's a wide ranging interview. he's on of the announcement on the back of the announcement earlier that nissan earlier this week that nissan was planning to expand its electrical vehicle operation. and that's obviously a good news story. it's a it's a brexit bounce, if you will. nissan was obviously quite sceptical about brexit, but has now seemingly managed to find ways to work with brexit. so that's a good news story. yes, it's quite an interesting interview there. >> and he's saying that there are more tax cuts to come. well, he kind of has to say that because actually i thought the reception from the right wing press was fairly press to the budget was fairly supportive. actually supportive. they actually enjoyed a positive headlines enjoyed a few positive headlines for that, for once, having said that, that was coverage was was because the coverage was saying, this is a good saying, well, this is a good start, but you need to go a lot further. i mean, i think by spnng further. i mean, i think by spring budget that's spring the budget that's announced spring, if announced in spring, if it doesn't big what would

doesn't have big what we would call giveaways, they are call retail giveaways, they are in even more serious doodoo than they already. do you they all are already. do you agree that ? yeah, absolutely. >> and the prime minister told my on the day of the my paper on the day of the autumn statement that there would more to come. that was would be more to come. that was his more to come. so his his phrase, more to come. so we are very, very clearly expecting the spring budget to be bigger cutting be a much bigger tax cutting event than the autumn statement was. they clearly are on this . was. they clearly are on this. they call it a path to tax cuts. we're entering a general election period. they clearly have to make a big bang in spnng have to make a big bang in spring if they've got any chance of kind of going out there and really taking the fight to. >> what do you think about these theories about they'll bring the election to rather election forward to may rather than autumn because of that idea that going to instigate that they're going to instigate the cut january rather that they're going to instigate the waiting january rather that they're going to instigate the waiting _april.y rather that they're going to instigate the waiting _april. and her than waiting till april. and everyone like, oh, it's like electioneering. >> yeah, i think it did set a lot of hares racing in westminster, but i think actually i don't think most people within the party think that going to happen that is what's going to happen here. you need time for these things effect. you need things to take effect. you need you actually to

you need you actually need to hammer message over and hammer home the message over and over and over and over again. at the moment, message has been the moment, the message has been quite for quite long quite negative for quite a long time on economy. so the time on the economy. so the party has to really a good party has to really have a good year saying, look, things year of saying, look, things have got have improved. if they've got any making that stick any chance of making that stick with voters. >> let's have look at the >> let's have a look at the sunday times front page involving of own at gb involving one of our own at gb news. allegations that lee news. the allegations that lee anderson offered anderson has said he was offered a money to defect, to a lot of money to defect, to reform i reform are reform. i mean, reform are saying they haven't offered anyone any money. not a new anyone any money. it's not a new story. is it. sam story. this is it. sam >> no, these allegations first emerged february when emerged back in february when the conservative party received reports of mps being approached and they complained to the speaken and they complained to the speaker, lindsay hoyle . now, speaker, lindsay hoyle. now, we've not heard any kind of results of any investigation he's done, but now we know who the mp was. one of the mps. >> to be fair, mr anderson is caught on camera talking about how he's been offered a lot of money to cross the floor. i mean, it to of mean, it speaks to me of a degree if true and again reform deny it. desperation from

reform. i mean , there are 10 or reform. i mean, there are 10 or 11 points ahead in the polls , 11 points ahead in the polls, and yet they haven't got the political heft they need and they some. they they clearly need some. so they may have approaching may well have been approaching tories, mean, does it tories, but, i mean, does it seem going seem likely that any are going to across and go to reform? i to go across and go to reform? i don't think so. >> i it would be highly >> i think it would be highly unlikely. i mean, hard to unlikely. i mean, it's hard to kind overestimate how angry kind of overestimate how angry tory are about reform. they tory mps are about reform. they think out to destroy think reform is out to destroy them. they reform, wants to them. they want reform, wants to change the voting system, to bnngin change the voting system, to bring in pr so they could get seats in parliament. they've got no chance of doing that at the moment. so it really is quite the conservative mps feel quite bitter the the bitter about reform the way the reforms things. reforms are approaching things. so very unlikely so i think it's very unlikely that it doesn't help reform that. >> nigel farage, another gb news colleague, keeps on flirting with the idea of joining the tories. it's like he's been in the talking about, oh, the jungle talking about, oh, well, rule it out. well, i wouldn't rule it out. you i don't think that's you know, i don't think that's particularly you know, i don't think that's parconservative party leaders >> conservative party leaders and 2026, i think that's and he by 2026, i think that's what i mean. >> talking about big a how >> talking about how big a how big to the big a threat are reform to the tourism. and as i say, they're

sort of polling 10 or 11, sort of polling at 10 or 11, which is obviously higher than had been the case. yes, i remember hearing that somebody had been the case. yes, i rercchqer hearing that somebody had been the case. yes, i rercchq said,3ring that somebody had been the case. yes, i rercchq said, youi that somebody had been the case. yes, i rercchq said, you know, ;omebody had been the case. yes, i rercchq said, you know, ifnebody in cchq said, you know, if reform we are in reform get to 10, we are in inverted commas. again, another word i can't repeat a sunday word i can't repeat on a sunday morning. is that morning. i mean, is that true because course, vote for because of course, a vote for reform could just be allowing labour through and win labour to storm through and win a load of seats in the red wall. well this is exactly the problem. >> although reform don't have any under the current any chance under the current system winning in system of winning any seats in parliament, have the parliament, they do have the chance really thwart chance to really, really thwart the conservatives chances of being, anywhere near being, you know, anywhere near in a good place at the election . in a good place at the election. what they will do is actually allow labour come in through allow labour to come in through the back. so they will, if they if they get a few thousand votes in across the red wall in each seat, then that is enough to allow labour to win victory at the next election. >> let's have a little and finally hold the front finally moment, hold the front page on sunday splash charge page sun on sunday splash charge colon harry is a fool. is this news? prince harry in idiot shock. news? prince harry in idiot shock . what's going on here? shock. what's going on here? omid scobie , who doesn't know

omid scobie, who doesn't know the sussex and has never spoken to them in the past and certainly hasn't collaborated with his various hagiography of the couple, has got a new book out briefly, sam. >> he's completely impartial. journalist he's omicron. i think , you know, as you say, camilla, i mean, it's not for me to judge harry's intellect on or no , we harry's intellect on or no, we wouldn't want to do that. >> but it's charles seems to think he was a fool for writing spare and indeed pouring out his soul on netflix. >> i think many people might agree with that. >> indeed. we agree with >> yes, indeed. we agree with the this one. the king, perhaps on this one. sam thank you, ever sam lister, thank you, as ever this morning joining me to this morning for joining me to go through the papers. there you have we're not going have it. well, we're not going to some of the stories to get into some of the stories of and we're going to of the week and we're going to start doing that by speaking to tobias ellwood, former chair of start doing that by speaking to tob defence od, former chair of start doing that by speaking to tob defence select�*ner chair of start doing that by speaking to tob defence select committee, the defence select committee, tory for bournemouth tory mp for bournemouth east. tobias, on tobias, lovely to see you on this morning. thank you this sunday morning. thank you for company. is for your company. look is migration to why are the migration to high? why are the tories becoming the party tories fast becoming the party of mass migration with this figure suggests that figure that suggests that 745,000 came into the country in

2022, a new record ? 2022, a new record? >> well, i think . well, good >> well, i think. well, good morning. i think laura farris is going to be able to give more details on this. but yes, the numbers are too high and we're just a place in the context. they are actually similar numbers that are being received in germany, in france, in italy, in germany, in france, in italy, in other places. and i think what we're missing is an opportunity to actually work together with other nations, because the source of many of these places of where they're coming from are the same. and there needs to be more collective approach to dealing with that and putting out the fires. why do these people want to leave those places in the first place? and i think that's where i would like the debate to actually britain is not actually go. britain is not isolated in this. these numbers are high. yes that's the are far too high. yes that's the direct answer. what should they be? about it. yes. be? do something about it. yes. but plea, like said, but ultimate plea, like said, it's they are very similar. in fact, we're in a better place than some of our continental counterparts. but we're not working together . we're not working together. we're not putting the challenges out

across the world. ironically in places that we've wandered into. so malia, yemen, libya , iraq, so malia, yemen, libya, iraq, syria, afghanistan , iran, you syria, afghanistan, iran, you know, the west has wandered in, tried to deal with the dictator, then strategically lost patience and then extracted ourselves only to leave insecure , 80 poor only to leave insecure, 80 poor governance , humanitarian governance, humanitarian challenges . and then we wonder challenges. and then we wonder why those people then want to move somewhere else and just say the situation is get much, much worse as climate change starts to grip africa, we're going to see biblical movements of people. so there needs to be a much more holistic international effort to deal with this issue . effort to deal with this issue. >> i mean, david cameron and indeed theresa may talked about the numbers being down into the tens of thousands. is that realistic? would you support that kind reduction ? that kind of reduction? >> i would. but you need a >> yes, i would. but you need a plan to do so. you need something that's going to recognise as we're dealing with the criminal gangs, the numbers are actually because we are actually down because we also economic migrants tied also had economic migrants tied into don't forget what

into that. don't forget what happened albania happened with albania specifically. dealt with that specifically. we dealt with that issue as well . so yeah, but issue as as well. so yeah, but ultimately let's say we're not looking at this. i think from the wider, the wider positioning. and that's what i think we now need to do. could i find a rare note of find perhaps a rare note of agreement with your former nemesis, boris johnson here, tobias, because he's suggesting that we should raise the income needed for a visa to £40,000 a yeah >> is that a good idea ? >> is that a good idea? >> is that a good idea? >> certainly. i think we need to need to look at all this. i did cross swords with boris a few times. there's many things we do agree on. one of them is ukraine. yes, certainly. and our international status positioning. i think britain is rekindling its statecraft of what we do on the international stage. and that's been, i think, reflected by the prime minister the new rishi sunak going to the middle east and now david cameron coming back into the ranks as well. a formidable, i think , capability back in able think, capability back in able to produce project. i think

britain's role and influence on the international stage, although it was quite interesting to hear lord cameron say in the week that he wanted a closer alliance with the eu on international and security and defence matters . defence matters. >> and yet at the same time we've just seen the spanish and belgium pm's go out and give a press conference the rafah press conference at the rafah crossing they were very, crossing where they were very, very i mean , very critical of israel. i mean, is ? is that helpful? >> well, there's two points you raise there. can we do anything in our world without collaboration with our international partners? the answer that no. can answer to that is no. can britain influence yes? we have convening power. we have soft power. we have hard power. we have the ability to work very closely with the united states. so as we've done a number of times in the last century, we should be doing the same in the in this century. we can't do all the heavy lifting, but as we've earned our place on the permanent membership of the united nations security council , united nations security council, we can bring other nations together. the idea that individual nations then go out and do their own thing shows how disparate, perhaps the

international community has become. and that's been taken advantage to say, by advantage of. i have to say, by authoritarian states across the world. we spent three decades, i'm afraid, becoming too complacent. there are a lot of fires around the world and the west threshold to deal with disturbance, instability , i'm disturbance, instability, i'm afraid, is increasingly being tested. >> but you want closer eu ties then? tobias but it must worry you.the then? tobias but it must worry you. the election of people like geert wilders in holland and maybe even meloni in italy . i maybe even meloni in italy. i mean, there is a tendency within some of these eu states to become more right wing, which is kind of the opposite of your politics. >> no, actually, it's a consequence of the fact that populism comes in when we don't work together and when you see increasing migrant numbers and you see increasing authoritarianism affecting globalisation . and that's it's globalisation. and that's it's not just places like holland, it's also slovakia as well. and hungary has already got their he shows that when collectively we work together in the same direction , we can actually have

direction, we can actually have an impact. but when we start to dissipate and disagree, then that's when populism rises. look what's going on in the united states at the moment, and that's very, very dangerous indeed. you know, the leader of the west being so involved domestic being so involved in domestic matters, taking their eye off what's going on on the international place , i really do international place, i really do fear that we're sliding into a cold war and our world is going to splinter into two spheres of competing influence because the west is not working more closely together. and countries such as holland are then turning in on themselves because people get frustrated . and that frustration frustrated. and that frustration then is expressed in people like like wilders being being elected. okay. >> i mean, we've seen nigel farage in the jungle. i don't know if you've been following the i'm a celebrity, not ruling out possibility one day out the possibility of one day leading conservative party. leading the conservative party. if that happened, would you remain mp ? remain a tory mp? >> a lot of big questions there, whether he's even going to make it of the jungle. i really it out of the jungle. i really don't know . don't know. >> would would you content?

>> would you would you content? would you be the same party would you be in the same party as nigel farage? >> tobias i'm no the probably the answer to that is no. >> look, when britain when to make it really clear what the conservative party is about the one nation conservative party wing these elections look back at our history. i've said this numerous times , you know, when numerous times, you know, when we aim for the centre, ground centre right ground of british politics, we win elections. when we move to our extreme aim, then i'm afraid we put ourselves in opposition at the same as with labour when they went for jeremy corbyn, where did they go? the sweet spot in british politics is when you aim for the centre right. >> you say that though. tobias wasn't margaret that churchill did that disraeli did that, david cameron did that as well. >> did boris do that of us in opposition? eventually we got re—elected and the same, i'm afraid that is where rishi sunak is trying to take the party at. and if we look united, if we look resolved, if we look

competent, if we have that vision, then yes , we can stay. vision, then yes, we can stay. >> no, but you say that boris united, then that's not going to happen. >> i mean, boris didn't really unite the party even though you might characterise him as libertarian. would thatcher want to as a nation tory? >> no. boris is election was quite specific. you know, we were dealing with jeremy corbyn, so that was an advantage. make it really clear what the conservatives stood for. we did. we were not jeremy corbyn. and then there was this let's resolve brexit. you remember the few years of civil war there was not just in the country, but it's certainly in politics as well. and he said, i can solve that. and that's him that. and that's what took him across line in the 2019, the across the line in the 2019, the world's very, very different now. the whole issue of brexit is it doesn't really register in that same way. we're all post brexiteers from that perspective i >> -- >> tobias ellwood if you're a brexiteer may, i may well be a cat . this is exciting for me to cat. this is exciting for me to hear that you have come over to the dark side. >> finally, tobias , you missed

>> finally, tobias, you missed a key word there , which is post key word there, which is post brexiteers most people in britain accept the result . britain accept the result. >> what they don't accept is where we've landed with brexit. all these people saying it's going to be utopia. the grass is going to be utopia. the grass is going to be greener. it is not because economically we've not got the best deal and there are various views on where we should have landed. most people have either voted remain or voted brexit. don't expect us to land where we are today . and tobias where we are today. and tobias brexit deal to be had . brexit deal to be had. >> tobias i can't agree with you more that we do need to see more of our brexit brexit opportunities . thank you very opportunities. thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning . well, i'm delighted to morning. well, i'm delighted to be joined by laura farris. now she's the safeguarding minister be joined by laura farris. now she's tin safeguarding minister be joined by laura farris. now she's tin the eguarding minister be joined by laura farris. now she's tin the homeiing minister be joined by laura farris. now she's tin the home office nister be joined by laura farris. now she's tin the home office ander be joined by laura farris. now she's tin the home office and the based in the home office and the ministry of justice. it's nice to see you this morning, minister. sparing minister. thank you for sparing the sunday morning. the time on a sunday morning. can talk about these can we talk about these migration the tory migration figures? are the tory party party of mass party now the party of mass migration in no , camilla, migration in no, camilla, i accept without reservation that

the figures last week were too high. >> but the government is now, first of all, some of the reason for that was because of things like the ukraine scheme that we've run and also the offer to bno passport holders , that's bno passport holders, that's british passport holders in hong kong following the chinese crackdown. so there have been 1 or 2 one off events that have led to very, very large numbers. more than 100,000 people coming in on visas, humanitarian visas that reflect our values and were the right thing to do. i think many would agree . but it's also many would agree. but it's also true when you look at the principle sort of worker categories, were large categories, there were large numbers large numbers of students and large numbers of students and large numbers to in fill numbers coming to in fill vacancies in the health and care sector. also bringing in large numbers of dependents. now we've already addressed that in relation to students and the forecast that that will bring numbers down. consider ably, but it's quite obvious that there's further to go on that , further to go on that, particularly issue of particularly the issue of dependents . and would also dependents. and i would also just gently flag and you'll just just gently flag and you'll have heard this yourself in the

autumn statement that there was a towards getting a huge thrust towards getting people are currently on people who are currently on incapacity benefits back into some form. >> no, i know filling the vacancies in the labour market as a way of offsetting and reduce the numbers coming in. i completely take the point you're making about hong kong and indeed and indeed the indeed ukraine and indeed the student changes, but at the student visa changes, but at the same have historically same time, we have historically heard successive heard from successive tory administrations a desire to get immigration down to the tens of thousands. it's been above 200 or 300,000 and literally since david cameron has been in power. so unfortunately , our audience so unfortunately, our audience feels betrayed by your promises. you talked in the 2019 tory manifesto about having this australian points based system to control immigration. the perception is with these numbers andindeed perception is with these numbers and indeed with the tens of thousands still arriving in the channel by boat, that migration, legal and illegal, is completely out of control under your watch. you must accept that. otherwise you are taking our audience for

fools as i wouldn't dream of taking your audience for fools. >> actually . and i. i accept >> actually. and i. i accept without reservation that the numbers are too high. it is really important to look into the component parts of that rather than just presenting it as one single issue. that is definitely an issue with the numbers coming over and the numbers coming over and the numbers of dependents that they're . and it is they're bringing. and it is absolutely right the absolutely right that the measures are announcing measures that we are announcing or forward will or that are coming forward will look will be look at that and will be directed bringing overall directed at bringing overall numbers just numbers down. could i just address separately you were address separately what you were saying about illegal migration across the channel? because one of the really important points is that the measures that the prime minister put in actually in the weeks became in the weeks after he became prime minister first of all, a comprehensive returns agreement with albania and secondly, robust new border protections in france , in france, collectively , france, in france, collectively, they have brought the number of small boats crossing the channel this year down by over 30. at the same time as the number of illegal migrants crossing the

mediterranean into continental europe has gone up by 80. so that's not just a real terms drop. it's a very significant relative drop, just as pressure is building in continental europe, we are driving numbers down now. you know, camilla, that the next stage of that is going to be the emergency legislation that's brought forward to deal with rwanda, because only create because we only create a complete deterrent across the engush complete deterrent across the english channel. if we can say , english channel. if we can say, hey, if you arrive here at the hands of a people smuggler illegally, then you will have no right now or ever to asylum in the united kingdom, making it completely not worth their while. >> but there does seem to be a row within cabinet about the rwanda plan. on one hand, we've got robert jenrick pushing this plan. it was suella braverman plan. it was suella braverman plan as well, and he worked under her. but on the other hand, we've got james cleverly, the foreign secretary. so or was the foreign secretary. so or was the foreign secretary now the home secretary so not an insignificant role that he's playing this. playing on all this. he's previously described the plan in

quite unsavoury he quite unsavoury terms. he doesn't seem to be a supporter of and said that rwanda of it. and he said that rwanda isn't be all end all isn't the be all and end all report. ridley you've now got report. ridley so you've now got a secretary seemingly at a home secretary seemingly at odds with own immigration odds with his own immigration minister the government's minister about the government's flagship the flagship policy to stop the boats ? boats? >> no, i want to be clear here in the interview which you're referring to, i think it was yesterday's interview he described, the home secretary described, the home secretary described rwanda as a really important part of our plan. i think the point that he was making is it isn't just rwanda that's enabled us to get the numbers down significantly . but numbers down significantly. but i to make absolutely clear i want to make absolutely clear that we see rwanda as a very, very important element of our next strategy , which is you you next strategy, which is you you create a complete deterrent by removing the incentive to take those routes. now, we understand the plan . the plan. >> it's just this it's this idea of there being tensions in the home office at a time when this policy is absolutely integral , policy is absolutely integral, not just to stopping the boats, but seemingly the government's chances of being re—elected. i

know what you're saying about james cleverly, but at the end of the day, he has been widely quoted it hasn't been quoted and it hasn't been disputed that he this disputed that he thought this plan something crazy . plan was bat something crazy. that's not endorsement of the that's not an endorsement of the plan, is it ? plan, is it? >> there is nothing that i have detected that suggests any schism in the home office . i've schism in the home office. i've only i've only been in post only been i've only been in post for weeks, but i've been to for two weeks, but i've been to a couple meetings related to for two weeks, but i've been to a co and meetings related to for two weeks, but i've been to a co and i meetings related to for two weeks, but i've been to a co and i haveetings related to for two weeks, but i've been to a co and i have detected ated to this and i have detected complete cohesion on where we're going next. one the things going next. one of the things about supreme court's about the supreme court's decision on rwanda that it decision on rwanda was that it was focus criticism. it was was a focus criticism. it was completely centred on the issue of refoulement, which is language from the language adopted from the refugee convention, which means that enda has placed that rawang enda has placed people at risk historically of being returned to their country of origin before their asylum claim has been determined. so minister, we're running out of time . time. >> so a quick yes no answer to the question, please. the following question, please. will take off will flights to rwanda take off next no ? next year? yes or no? >> yes. >> yes. >> okay. thank you very much indeed for that. pharis, indeed for that. laura pharis, thank joining me this thank you for joining me this morning. more to come on morning. lots more to come on today's programme. going morning. lots more to come on to

morning. lots more to come on to

soon welcome back to the camilla tominey show. we've got a jam packed hour ahead for you. i'm going to be speaking israel's going to be speaking to israel's former interior formerjustice and interior minister take on the minister for her. take on the

hostage releases later the hostage releases later in the hour and more after hour. all of that and more after the news with sophia wenzler . the news with sophia wenzler. it's 10:00. >> i'm sophia wenzler in the newsroom . reports say the israel newsroom. reports say the israel government has received the list of hostages who are slated to be released today . an official released today. an official familiar with the matter told the times of israel that prime minister benjamin netanyahu's office are notifying the families of those in the loved ones of those on the list that it's the third day of a four day truce which qatar says earlier today. it hopes will be extended further with the release of more abductees . meanwhile, smoke can abductees. meanwhile, smoke can be seen at the gaza border on the third day of the truce between israel and hamas. the first batch of humanitarian aid suppues first batch of humanitarian aid supplies arrived in the northern gaza strip yesterday. on day two of the four day ceasefire, the nine year old irish israeli girl, emily hand has been reunited with her father

following her release by hamas . following her release by hamas. she is among 17 hostages released by the terrorist group after 50 days in captivity . 13 after 50 days in captivity. 13 israelis, six women and seven children, along with 14 nationals, were transferred , nationals, were transferred, voted out of gaza through the rafah border crossing with audio released by hamas shows women and children being taken into red cross vehicles, the idf says the released hostages are now in israel and are reuniting with their family while being medically assessed. a delay to the process was resolved through mediation by egypt and qatar. chair of kibbutz be'eri amit solve is relieved to see emily hand release at the hand is a closure for me because unfortunately i am the one who told her father that she has murdered been murdered, been found, murdered . and a week found, murdered. and a week later i'm the one who told the father that that she probably

captured so it's a kind of a relief for me that she's still alive. >> she's here. she will us and i have to tell her father to give him a hug . him a hug. >> 39 palestinians have been released from a prison in the west bank in exchange for the israeli hostages who hundreds of palestinians welcomed the freed prisoners in the early hours. this morning, crowds cheered , this morning, crowds cheered, clapped and waved flags in the streets as buses of prisoners arrived . it's understood six arrived. it's understood six women and 33 children are among the freed prisoners in the second batch of the exchange deal , the met police has deal, the met police has arrested 18 people during pro—palestine protests in london, five on suspicion of inciting or distributing material likely to stir up racial hatred and two on suspicion of supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation . when the arrest organisation. when the arrest took place. as tens of thousands of people marched through central london calling for a ceasefire , the police handed out

ceasefire, the police handed out leaflets to provide absolute clarity on what will be deemed an offence later on today. there'll be a march in the capital organised by the charity campaign against anti—semitism around 50,000 people are expected to attend . this is gb expected to attend. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car , on your digital radio and car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's back to . camilla >> thanks, sophia welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lots more still to come in just a minute, i'll be joined by mark littlewood, who runs liz truss's favourite think tank, the iea, who's to me in the who's going to join me in the studio. also going be studio. i'm also going to be joined by labour mp steve mccabe, israel's former justice and ayelet and interior minister ayelet shaked will give us her views on the hostage deal and i'll be joined the organisers joined by one of the organisers of today's march against anti—semitism, which is taking place a little later , place in london a little later, and author of a new

and the author of a new biography , churchill, biography meeting, churchill, joins the to joins me in the studio to discuss his new well, discuss his new book. well, let's bring littlewood into the conversation now. he's director general institute general of the institute for economic affairs, the iea. mark lovely to see you this morning. thank you for sparing the time on a sunday to be with you. let's get your reaction, first of all, the statement. of all, to the autumn statement. what was bad? what was good? what was bad? >> when i listened to it >> yeah, when i listened to it and jeremy hunt sat down i and jeremy hunt sat down and i probably a seven probably gave it about a seven out ten. out of ten. >> and the more i thought about it, the more that number has dropped, actually. and i think the about the most intriguing thing about it, but also the most frustrating you looked at the frustrating if you looked at the newspapers the next day, some newspapers the next day, some newspapers huge tax newspapers were saying huge tax cuts other headlines were cuts and other headlines were the highest tax burden that we've ever had. this is the problem. and actually, both are true, if chancellor true, because if the chancellor stands up and does nothing literally says, i've decided not to change the tax system at all, i commend this statement to the house and sits down taxes go up because more and more of us get dragged in. so actually his offset, if you like, of reducing national insurance, a small step

in the right direction. but in inexorably tax is going up and up and up. i think that is bad for the economy. is that bad for growth? >> is that just i mean, i know that this is not going to be the iea's argument because we shouldn't be sort of fatalistic and complacent about tax going up but is it just up so highly. but is it not just as result of our ageing as a result of our ageing population, our demand population, our huge demand on pubuc population, our huge demand on public services, ever more billions the billions being pumped into the nhs, is the new normal nhs, that this is the new normal that we're going to have to accept? and what's counter accept? and what's the counter narrative that cut spending? narrative to that cut spending? because the tories aren't going to introduce to be popular if they introduce yet austerity measures . yet more austerity measures. >> yeah, i mean, i get a bit frustrated. camilla about the austerity sort of discussion often because i don't think we've of it. austerity, we've had any of it. austerity, to my mind, living well to my mind, is living well within your means. so a government that's practising austerity would be running unnecessarily . high budget unnecessarily. high budget surpluses year. in fact, surpluses every year. in fact, we've been running budget deficits for 20 years. you're right. there is a demographic problem, an ageing population means more burden on on means there's more burden on on the taxpayer in general. but that political choice. you

that is a political choice. you don't to drift along don't just need to drift along with that. we now have a welfare bill year in excess of bill every year in excess of £340 billion. i mean, this is more than ten grand per household, per year. this is extraordinary. and we still haven't wiped out poverty. so i think you've got to look at the spending side of the ledger. you're right, the conservative government seems to be unimaginative or reluctant in doing so because ultimately if you to get tax down, you've you want to get tax down, you've got to get spending down. >> if he had come up with a >> but if he had come up with a kind kwasi style mini—budget, >> but if he had come up with a kinwould nasi style mini—budget, >> but if he had come up with a kinwould nasi slandedni—budget, >> but if he had come up with a kinwould nasi slanded in-budget, >> but if he had come up with a kinwould nasi slanded in trouble. he would have landed in trouble with markets , wouldn't he? with the markets, wouldn't he? i mean, idea liz truss and mean, this idea of liz truss and kwasi kwarteng trying something more was welcomed more radical which was welcomed with open arms by the iea at the time, then blew up in their faces is it seemingly impossible because of pressure from the treasury, pressure from the markets and other, i suppose pressures externally coming in from all directions that actually that approach to the budget and that kind of idea of free market capitalism and a return to kind of thatcher economic policies just simply

isn't workable in the 21st century. >> oh, i think it is workable. but my god, you need one hell of a lot of political will. i think one of the stories of the short lived truss premiership was the range of forces against her were absolutely colossal. not least within her own party. half of the conservative party didn't really want her to try and do what she was trying to do, although i mean unfunded pledges i >> -- >> and that's exactly right and completely wrong. >> i agree with that. and >> no, i agree with that. and actually, where iea and actually, where the iea and myself were critical of her is if you want to get spending, if you want to get taxes down, you've got to get spending down more or less in lockstep. but we've got to be bit careful we've got to be a bit careful here. everybody goes screaming mad tax cuts and mad about unfunded tax cuts and they're we've had they're right to. but we've had an awful lot of unfunded government spending over the past years, nobody seems past 20 years, and nobody seems to about that. so as to worry about that. so it's as if unfunded tax cuts are a particularly toxic problem, but colossal public spending with god only knows how we're going to pay for it isn't now. we've got to i think, both down.

got to get, i think, both down. that requires some difficult political some political decisions and some huge also colossal huge trade offs. also colossal pubuc huge trade offs. also colossal public while at the public spending, while at the same satisfaction with same time satisfaction with pubuc same time satisfaction with public at an all time public service is at an all time low. >> wasn't it quite good politics low. >> iajeremy quite good politics low. >> iajeremy hunt good politics low. >> iajeremy hunt lastd politics low. >> iajeremy hunt last weektics low. >> iajeremy hunt last week to; from jeremy hunt last week to push rachel reeves into a corner and basically say i think he's saying, you know, we expect departmental spending to be stagnant for the next five years. so then she has to be forced to take the decision because who knows what they're going going going to inherit. it's not going to particularly if to be particularly pretty if labour get into power. a hobson's choice between putting taxes or cutting spending, taxes up or cutting spending, that's right. >> and i mean, we have, i think now reached the limits of tax and spend in britain. and if labour were to win the next election and the opinion polls suggest that's by far the most likely they not likely outcome, they are not going inherit the sort of going to inherit the sort of golden economic legacy that tony blair labour blair inherited. when labour last to power, the economy last came to power, the economy was pretty good way was in pretty good shape way back so it's very, very back in 1997. so it's very, very difficult choices . but here's difficult choices. but here's the i think if it were to the rub. i think if it were to be labour's position that they want to dial up taxes, even

further order to have yet further in order to have yet more public spending, i think in practical terms, that's going to be hard to do. we are now taxing the uk economy around about we're heading to about 38% of national income is being hoovered up by the treasury and taxes of one kind or the other. and over lifetimes that's and over our lifetimes that's about the most the treasury can hoover up if you dial it beyond that, you actually start to lose money. people quit work early, leave the country. >> then the argument contrary to that will public services are that will be public services are in a state 7.8, nearly 3 million people nhs waiting lists. you people on nhs waiting lists. you know, potholes aren't being filled people can't to get filled. people can't seem to get anything we pull a lever, anything done. we pull a lever, somebody pulls in the somebody pulls it in the opposite direction, etcetera, etcetera. >> exactly right. but >> no, that's exactly right. but but back to what your but going back to what your previous question, camilla, you implied that it implied or i inferred that it doesn't seem that throwing more money at these services reform agenda clearly reform agenda is clearly got to reform our care system. our health care system. intriguingly, the labour party and wes streeting seem to be rather more open about that than the i'm rather the conservatives, so i'm rather hoping might get some

hoping we might get some changes. i would like to look changes. i would like us to look over channel at european over the channel at european health i'm for health care systems. i'm up for full change there, so full blown change there, so i then kind of heralds in the idea of some kind of quasi privatisation. >> if you have like a german system, obviously it's some private, state. but i was private, some state. but i was just going to ask you, mark, whether rated reeves whether you rated rachel reeves and impression is of and what your impression is of her so far. >> think she's pretty >> yeah, i think she's pretty competent actually . i mean, competent actually. she i mean, it's difficult discern any it's difficult to discern any form ideology really. she form of ideology really. she comes across more as an accountant or an economist, but she strikes me as actually having a relatively safe pair of hands. be known from my hands. truth be known from my perspective, it's not very obvious what the next obvious to me what the next labour indeed labour government, if indeed there will very there is one, will do very differently to conservative. >> that's the problem >> well, that's the problem because keeps on banging on because she keeps on banging on about 13 years of tory rule and then when asked, would you then when asked, well, would you reverse cuts? she reverse these tax cuts? she can say nothing than probably say nothing other than probably not of the same under not no more of the same under a different face, more of same different face, more of the same migration. economically migration. is it economically good bad? good or bad? >> mark i think it's very difficult to give a good or bad on that. it depends on which

types, which cohorts. i was listening you earlier listening to you earlier interviewing minister, where interviewing the minister, where you that you pointed out that the conservatives their conservatives have missed their tens target . i did tens of thousands target. i did hear one cheeky conservative saying we haven't. saying to me, no, we haven't. it's just it's 74, tens of thousands that have come in. it can be good, but it's a question of the nature of that immigration. if people are coming in. i mean, the way i would look at it, if people are coming are basically net coming in who are basically net contributors, paying contributors, let's say, paying more than receiving more tax than they're receiving in benefits key jobs in in benefits or doing key jobs in the sector the public the private sector or the public sector , well, that can be sector, well, that can be a benefit. i don't see there's any problem don't know, problem with i don't know, another rich, talented another 50,000 rich, talented nonh another 50,000 rich, talented north americans moving to the united kingdom would be a boon for the economy. but if people are in who are adding are coming in who are adding still on our welfare still more burden on our welfare state and our public services, then we've got to. >> the treasury doesn't seem to see way. treasury see it that way. the treasury seems think more numbers seems to think that more numbers that in are plugging that come in are plugging gaps which being filled by which may not be being filled by people are actually people who are actually on welfare therefore it kind of welfare and therefore it kind of masks the situation with regard to own home—grown talent . to our own home—grown talent. what johnson's idea

what about boris johnson's idea of having that cap at £40,000 for people coming in and wanting to apply for visas? >> i get that. and would be >> i get that. and i would be thinking similar sort of thinking along a similar sort of line, to mind it isn't line, but to my mind it isn't necessarily about your necessarily just about your salary. that you salary. i'm supposed that you wanted some to wanted for some reason to relocate to the you're not relocate to the uk. you're not intending work , but you're intending to work, but you're worth 10 million usd and you want to retire here. i think i would gladly welcome you in as long you claim no benefits. long as you claim no benefits. so although sort of look at so although we sort of look at the salary the wages, how the salary or the wages, how much earning is key much you're earning is the key task. much you're earning is the key task . i think much you're earning is the key task. i think we should much you're earning is the key task . i think we should actually task. i think we should actually be how much you be looking at how much are you squeezing the system, squeezing out of the system, taking from the taking taking from the state, taking from other taxpayers, and if that nought if you like, that is nought or if you like, below that, you're a net contributor here, then you're below that, you're a net contrithan here, then you're below that, you're a net contrithan welcome. 1 you're below that, you're a net contrithan welcome. 1 y0|if'e below that, you're a net contrithan welcome. 1 y0|if your more than welcome. but if your claims, if your claims, especially if your dependents as well are further drag, then our public spending position worsens. >> still more final . >> still more final. >> still more final. >> q happened to your >> q what's happened to your reported peerage? >> oh, well , the lords work in >> oh, well, the lords work in very mysterious ways. >> spent my entire adult >> i've spent my entire adult life successfully, if i may >> i've spent my entire adult life so successfully, if i may >> i've spent my entire adult life so , successfully, if i may >> i've spent my entire adult life so , irritating ully, if i may >> i've spent my entire adult life so , irritating and if i may say so, irritating and infuriating the political establishment. so i'd be wholly

unsurprised if i'm cancelled. >> well, hang a minute. you >> well, hang on a minute. you were chief spokesman were once chief spokesman for the democrats. the liberal democrats. you've worked, them, worked, you irritated them, you've them. sure you've irritated them. i'm sure you've irritated them. i'm sure you for david cameron. you work for david cameron. >> so you had a very read career. >> but liz truss proposed to you for a peerage. and then what's happened literally, what have you i'm interested. you been told? i'm interested. >> really nothing? >> you really hear nothing? camilla. they don't. >> so you think have been >> so you think you have been nominated by liz truss, but do we been that we think it's been blocked that you've off a list by you've been taken off a list by this mysterious committee called holac, the bible says the lord works mysterious ways. works in mysterious ways. >> trust me, the house of lords works more so. works in even more so. >> you think maybe because >> do you think maybe because you're a truss ally as you're a truss ally or seen as somebody advised that somebody that advised her that you've now been made persona non grata? >> i've always been persona non grata corridors of power. >> are going to end up >> so are you going to end up with this period or not? >> i have. >> i have. >> i have. >> i you know what? >> i you know what? >> give me a chance. >> i guess not. >> i guess not. >> and is that that disappointed you? >> well, means i'm going to >> well, it means i'm going to have work for a living, but, have to work for a living, but, you know. >> hey, we should all do that. you're on you're always welcome back on this littlewood, thank you

>> mark littlewood, thank you very much. lovely to see you this hoping now to this morning. i'm hoping now to be joined by steve mccabe. he's the mp for birmingham the labour mp for birmingham selly he's also selly oak. he's also parliamentary chair of the labour israel. steve, labour friends of israel. steve, thank you for your time this morning. lovely to speak you. morning. lovely to speak to you. let's labour let's talk about what labour might economy. might do with the economy. i appreciate not in power. appreciate you're not in power. you're me you're probably going to tell me we written our manifesto we haven't written our manifesto yet, the same time, do yet, but at the same time, do you in principle agree with what was announced autumn was announced in the autumn statement? steve well, i don't really think the autumn statement is going to make that much difference. >> if i'm honest. having who's going to object to the national insurance tax cut . it's broadly insurance tax cut. it's broadly an okay thing. but i think it works out about the cost of a fish and chips on a weekly basis is about , fish and chips on a weekly basis is about, what, about nine, £10 a week, isn't it ? okay. i think a week, isn't it? okay. i think the extinction of the capital investment arrangements are good for businesses , but actually was

for businesses, but actually was just a over the weekend talking to some small businesses. just a over the weekend talking to some small businesses . they to some small businesses. they didn't know anything about it. >> therefore . or do you think >> therefore. or do you think that when the time comes for labour to set out more of its economic plan to the public, obviously hoping to be elected whenever the election is next yeah whenever the election is next year, that they're going to have to present a tax cutting programme that goes beyond the autumn statement . because we've autumn statement. because we've just been hearing from mark littlewood the iea, littlewood here from the iea, talking about economic talking about the economic legacy that may inherit , legacy that labour may inherit, andifs legacy that labour may inherit, and it's going to be there's going to be enormous pressure on chancellor rachel reeves if the time comes for her to be appointed to that role, to actually either cut spending or put taxes up in order to balance the books . the books. >> yeah, i agree with a lot of what mark said, actually, but i think the difference is about whether or not you have fair taxation. we think there are obvious targets where there could be fairer tax , you know,

could be fairer tax, you know, big companies online sales transactions that are avoid paying transactions that are avoid paying tax in this country , paying tax in this country, non—doms which , you know, the non—doms which, you know, the prime minister may have a special reason for not wanting to tax . i don't know. we think to tax. i don't know. we think that it's not so much about who's paying tax because everyone knows that we're paying far too much tax . i think it's far too much tax. i think it's the largest for over 70 years. but it's about who is paying it. >> yes. do you regard somebody earning £50,270 a year as wealthy ? wealthy? >> no, i don't. and i think that's part of the problem of freezing the tax allowances were drawing lots of people to, you know, police inspectors, head teachers were drawing far too many people into the higher rate of tax . of tax. >> yes. do you think that labour would be wise to propose

unfreezing those tax thresholds when the time comes as well? >> i think rachel reeves would say to me, you can't write my budgets . steve mccabe but budgets. steve mccabe but i think it's something we'd want to look at because it isn't fair and we know it isn't fair. >> can i ask you about how it's been over the last 4 to 5 weeks chairing the labour friends of israel group and obviously we've seen a lot of infighting within the labour party , see some the labour party, see some demands for a ceasefire on one side. keir starmer holding the line on resisting that, talking about humanitarian pauses, which to be fair, we've seen the results of this weekend , but is results of this weekend, but is it difficult to keep the labour party together on this really important issue? steve well, i mean, as you see, we have seen mean, as you see, we have seen some mean, as you see, we have seen some benefit outs in the last couple of days and i think we're all praying that that will lead to something better and that's certainly the strategy we've been supporting and i think it

is difficult for labour mps who live in areas where there are larger muslim numbers of stituents. >> but i mean we've all had a difficult time. i had about 300 people blocking my advice centre last saturday and stopping my constituents coming to see me and we have to look at these protests . there are very funny protests. there are very funny coalition of people and i think a lot of them i'm not saying all of them, but i think a lot of them are people who are more interested in finding a reason to protest and really caring about what's happening to the palestinian people in gaza. >> although you've got a lot of labour colleagues who have been marching with them and are seemingly on their side, you know, this idea of free palestine, they seem to be saying free palestine from israel and not hamas. >> well, it's actually look,

there can only be a i want to see a free palestine sign as well. it's a labour friends of israel objective. i want to state solution. i want to see both the israeli people living in safety and security and the palestinian people in a free state living in safety and security. but you can't do that when part of the potential palestinian state is being dominated by a terrorist organisation. it's absurd . organisation. it's absurd. >> i mean, that's scene outside your office. steve must have been pretty intimidatory . why is been pretty intimidatory. why is it acceptable? frankly only for pro—palestinian or any marchers to be marching outside mps offices ? i know wes streeting offices? i know wes streeting also got a load of stick. i mean, this puts people off entering public life, doesn't it ? >> well, 7— >> well, it's 5mm 7 >> well, it's not very nice. >> well, it's not very nice. >> i mean, let's let's not pretend about it. but i think

what's worse is that people who come to see mps and advice centre often have quite difficult problem . they're difficult problem. they're sometimes quite vulnerable people. maybe they haven't been there before. they're quite nervous . but these are the nervous. but these are the people who are being put off. they're being intimidated from coming to see their mps by often quite well—heeled people who've got the luxury of protesting. >> yes , that's right. steve >> yes, that's right. steve mccabe, thank you very much indeed for your time this morning. lovely to speak to you. well, let's continue the conversation about israel and indeed palestine and gaza with ayelet shaked. she's an influential israeli politician. she's the former minister of justice and the former minister of the interior. lovely to speak to you this morning. thank you so much for your time. i know it's obviously extremely difficult. we have seen these humanitarian pauses. this weekend, returns some israeli hostages to their families as heart rending scenes. really particularly of seeing those much, much younger children

reunited with their parents. some of the more elderly hostages, 85 year old women, holocaust survivors reunited . holocaust survivors reunited. and can this continue? are you confident that israel and indeed the palestinians will be able to continue brokering further releases as hostages as we go forward ? forward? >> yes, i hope we have two more days and today and more children should be released . uh, they you should be released. uh, they you know, they took small . they took know, they took small. they took little babies, little girls as hostages . it's something that, hostages. it's something that, you know, it's unbelievable. you can't imagine that. and we are we have like something like 40, 40 children in the hands of the hamas . and so we hope that we hamas. and so we hope that we will be able to get all of them back home. and we are waiting for all of them here. you know, there is a little baby, nine

months old. uh, his name is kfir . and we didn't get any sign about him yet. and we hope that those monster that took our children will release we'll release him as well. yes. but yes, i hope that that we will get them all. >> we obviously have heard a great deal from benjamin netanyahu and indeed the israeli defence forces talking about destroying hamas at what point does israel decide that hamas has been destroyed ? obviously, has been destroyed? obviously, there is a question of proportional parity. you need the western world on side with what you're doing. do drawing hamas at any cost. >> now, there is no question of proportionality after after the slaughter and our babies, they raped our girls . they burned our raped our girls. they burned our children down. and so we are not talking about proportionality by the way, the idf is the most moral army in the world. you know that. we act according to

the international law and you need to be aware of the fact that the hamas is using their own population as an as a human shield . and hamas will be shield. and hamas will be defeated. it means that the leaders of hamas will will either surrender or they will all be dead , and that the hamas all be dead, and that the hamas will not be the regime in gaza strip anymore. and we are not there yet, but we are not going to stop after what they did for us. you know, the hamas launched a barbaric genocide , tidal a barbaric genocide, tidal attack on israel on october 7th. and we will eliminate them. it will take time. we have we have this time because we don't have any other choice. it is either us or them who governs gaza after this. >> and at the end of this, i mean, i know you've made some comments in the week. you've talked about the future of 2

million gazans. you've talked about them being accommodated by egypt. what happens to gaza at the end of this ? the end of this? >> you know, i think that the international community should help here. there are moderate arab countries like the uae, like egypt , that can, you know, like egypt, that can, you know, help as some, you know, to create alliance of arab moderate states as first stage. but but let's wait and see. this hamas organisation will not be the ruler of gaza anymore after what they did . they did. >> so if they're not the ruler who is in charge and what happens to the people of gaza, the people in gaza right now are suffering because of the hamas . suffering because of the hamas. >> actually israel . we will >> actually israel. we will liberate the people in gaza from the hamas because, you know, as i said , they are using their own i said, they are using their own population in in order as a human shield. so let's wait and see. i think here the

international community should help us, not just, you know, broadcasting the world media about how how miserable the people in in gaza, but really help help with humanitarian aid and help with the solution . i and help with the solution. i think that if the international community will build an alliance of few countries that are willing to take responsibility , willing to take responsibility, it can be the first stage is benjamin netanyahu the right prime minister for israel to lead that international alliance. >> do you think there have been criticisms of him before this conflict and during it for his handung conflict and during it for his handling of the matter? i'm not talking about the internal politics in israel right now right now, all the people of israel, we are all united to eliminate the hamas. >> he doesn't matter if you are left or right, religious or secular. we all understand that we can't live next to this nazis organisation after what they did

on october 7th. so we are united to do that. i think that the whole world should be unified and to release all the hostage and to release all the hostage and to release all the hostage and to bring them back to israel. you know, they are young girls there that we don't we didn't talk about them yet , but didn't talk about them yet, but you know that the those monsters, they did a horrible they murdered. they raped our women. and we don't know what happens to them while they are in gaza. and right now, we are we are all united and doing a huge effort in order to bring everyone back to israel and to eliminate late those nazis monsters. >> do you think in retrospect , >> do you think in retrospect, considering the lack of intelligence around the october the 7th attack, that retrospectively all this should be investigated and how it came to pass that the israeli defence forces and indeed the government seem to have been taken completely unawares by what happened at the kibbutz and at

the festival on october 7. >> so we will do, um, you know, after, after we will win this war and eliminate the hamas, we will do an investigation and we'll investigate everything , we'll investigate everything, bnngin we'll investigate everything, bring in all the aspects. but it's not the time to do it right now. right now it's the time to win . win. >> okay. are you let. shakir thank you very much indeed for your time this morning. very lovely to speak to you. now, don't go anywhere, because the uk's biggest march against anti—semitism since the second world war will be taking place in london later today. i'll be speaking to one of the marches organisers in just a moment

that i knew had dbs and co weeknights from . six weeknights from. six >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. let's bring michael portillo, my gb news colleague, into the conversation. michael, what have you got coming up today? >> camilla, good morning. we're going to be looking a little bit at ukraine, which has been rather neglected. yes. we're also be discussing the also going to be discussing the election result in the netherlands, has been very netherlands, which has been very extraordinary. we want to know if that's of a european if that's part of a european pattern. we'll be asking whether the uk overseas aid is quietly being converted into reparations for british imperialism . this is for british imperialism. this is following new guidance that's been offered offered by the foreign office and then on the cultural side, we're going to be

looking at role dahls witches and charles dickens's a christmas carol, both of which are in the theatre and on tour and by the way, this week i went down to the dulwich picture gallery and saw a marvellous exhibition of rubens and women, and i have a little report on that as well. >> that sounds very culturally enlightening as ever is the case. that's what it's meant to be. and also i'm intrigued to find out what you think about roald dahl's witches, which i find as kid. find quite scary as a kid. >> i think is quite, quite a >> i think it is quite, quite a scary production. >> yeah, but it just >> well, yeah, but it just brilliant though, and visceral and if only and amazing. i mean, if only children's were written children's books were written like roald dahl did these days. michael looking michael very much looking forward thank forward to that at 11:00. thank you much indeed. now let's you very much indeed. now let's bnng you very much indeed. now let's bring silverman into the bring stephen silverman into the conversation from the conversation now from the campaign against anti—semitism. conversation now from the camp morning nst anti—semitism. conversation now from the camp morning .st anti—semitism. conversation now from the camp morning . you've-semitism. conversation now from the camp morning . you've gotnitism. conversation now from the camp morning . you've got atism. conversation now from the camp morning . you've got a very good morning. you've got a very busy day ahead . tell us about busy day ahead. tell us about this march. why have you organised it? how many people do you join? you hope might join? >> good morning, camilla. thank you having so , look, you for having me on so, look, it's almost two months since it's now almost two months since the worst atrocity against the

jewish since the jewish people since the holocaust was perpetrated in southern israel by hamas . as the southern israel by hamas. as the reaction to that , even before reaction to that, even before israel , israel reaction to that, even before israel, israel began its response was a massive outbreak of anti—semitism . i'm not just of anti—semitism. i'm not just here, but around the world. in london, the metropolitan police have reported an increase of 1,350% over the same period last yeah 1,350% over the same period last year. british jews are terrified like never before. they feel abandoned by the institutions who are meant to protect them. they feel alone now , for seven they feel alone now, for seven consecutive weeks, we've had a weekend feeling like no go areas for the jewish community with with awful , awful scenes of with awful, awful scenes of anti—semitic incitement and hatred . and so the purpose of hatred. and so the purpose of today is to say no, enough. it's for jewish people from all over the country to take a stand alongside their very, very many friends , allies and supporters

friends, allies and supporters of all faiths and none. and to say no , this is not what the uk say no, this is not what the uk is about. these are not uk values. >> how do you think that the protests have been policed ? do protests have been policed? do you think they've been policed? well, you talked about the arrests. some people have felt extremely uncomfortable seeing people, for instance, chanting from the river to the sea. there's a lot of people who are marching, of course, who are trying to do it in a peaceful way, who aren't being anti—semitic at all. what's your evaluation of we've seen in evaluation of what we've seen in recent on the streets of recent weeks on the streets of london? >> oh, look, it's know, >> oh, look, it's you know, it is very difficult to make the case that you're chanting a marching peace when you're marching for peace when you're also for jihad. marching for peace when you're also forjihad. and marching for peace when you're also for jihad. and to also chanting for jihad. and to globally as the intifada and for people who don't know, the intifada were a series of violent uprisings against israel in which many, many israeli civilians, civilians were murdered through suicide bombs. so you know, these these marches have been punctuated by by genocidal chants , by demands for

genocidal chants, by demands for the muslim armies to assemble for jihad . we have images of the forjihad. we have images of the stars of david entwined with swastikas , comparisons of israel swastikas, comparisons of israel with the nazi regime . with the nazi regime. >> i mean, are you confident that the met has clamped down on those sorts of people? i mean, one would imagine if you're one would imagine that if you're carrying banner for conflating carrying a banner for conflating the with the the star of david with the swastika, you should be swastika, then you should be immediately mean, immediately arrested. i mean, have evidence that have you seen evidence that that's actually been happening or lacklustre? or has it been too lacklustre? >> reports that that >> i've seen reports that that happened but for six happened yesterday, but for six weeks there was a terrible, terrible lack of action. and the jewish community was even gaslit by sir mark rowley about the meaning of some of these chants. yes. and how how there were different meanings to jihad . different meanings to jihad. yeah, jihad. it can be in a contemplative reflection . well, contemplative reflection. well, i'm sorry, but when you're chanting to globalise the intifada and for muslim armies to assemble jihad doesn't mean let's all come together and calmly . calmly. >> and obviously not all of the

marchers were doing this, but there were elements of this march that were doing this. and that's what you're objecting to. i'd like know your opinion on i'd like to know your opinion on the bbc how it's handled its the bbc and how it's handled its coverage this conflict, but coverage of this conflict, but also that appears also the decision that appears to been taken by bbc bosses to have been taken by bbc bosses is that bbc staff shouldn't go on the anti—semitism march , even on the anti—semitism march, even though understanding is that though my understanding is that no such diktat was given when it came to people who wanted to march in the spirit of freeing palestine. >> well, let me respond to the second part of your question first. so this clearly is about impartiality and avoiding anything that is political or partisan. how a march against anti—semitism or how a march against racism , um, can be against racism, um, can be categorised as partisan and something that should be avoided . i'd beggars belief and i think it's an absolutely disgraceful decision by the bbc. and sadly it's been part of what we've seen from the bbc throughout this conflict . a rush to this conflict. a rush to

judgement, a rush to accept hamas reports and figures as it is directly impact covid international peace keeping events. yes it's report on the what appeared to be the bombing of the al—ahly hospital in gaza. absolutely scuppered a planned meeting between the president of the united states and in saudi arabia . yeah, so it's been arabia. yeah, so it's been atrocious . and yesterday a video atrocious. and yesterday a video was released of an interview with jeremy bowen, who acknowledged that his reporting had at times been inaccurate and sat there and said, no, i don't regret it. i don't think i've got anything to apologise for. >> it's obviously he's not here to defend himself from that, but that said. what's that is what he said. what's also your reaction to some of gary lineker's tweets? he tweeted video which tweeted a video in which somebody was describing israel as perpetrated as having perpetrated a genocide. that video. >> well, i think it's an

indication of how celebrity can lead people into thinking that they're qualified to comment on incredibly complex matters. i mean, should he be sanctioned by the for bbc that? well, the bbc has a policy on this now, and they need to determine whether or not he is within that policy or not he is within that policy or whether he has brought them into disrepute . you know, just into disrepute. you know, just because someone and just because someone happens to be jewish and then likens what's going on to a genocide says it it doesn't make it accurate . it doesn't make it it accurate. it doesn't make it true. and the word genocide is being bandied around horribly, freely . so that is a major freely. so that is a major concern when you look at the number of followers that people like gary lineker have on social media and the extent to which they can be influenced . they can be influenced. >> how big a problem is antisemite ism in schools? we've heard a lot about anti—semitism on campuses. i know that 500 alumni, for instance, from university college london, wrote to the vice chancellor and

complained about what it perceived to be anti—semitism on campus. but we've also heard reports of jew hate in playgrounds . playgrounds. >> well, you know, it's not surprising. and we are receiving similar reports as what sorts of reports are you receiving similar to that? like young children , young children who children, young children who pick up information and comments about what's currently going on. and then without really understand what they're saying? well, they use it against that fellow jewish pupils and it is a huge problem. but the issue of education and anti—semitism in this country is something that is going to have to be taken very seriously and dealt with. you know, we at a recent pro—palestinian march, did some vox pops and we caught two young women, very young women on video saying in 1948, the palestinians welcomed the jews with open

arms. they gave them homes, they gave them everything they needed to feel settled and welcome and safe. and now look what they've done. and you think you know where on earth is this information coming from ? what is information coming from? what is education doing in this country to ensure that these narratives are corrected? that should just be common general knowledge? >> but do you also worry about social media? i noted that the actor and comedian sacha baron cohen spoke out in the week against tiktok and said that tiktok was poisoning the minds of a generation against jews. do you agree with that? what can the government do about that, do you think? what should they do? >> well, i mean, social media has been the cauldron in which anti has been brewed up anti semitism has been brewed up for certainly the eight years that doing what i that i've been doing what i do with campaign against anti—semitism it's enables anti—semitism. um, it's enables views that that people would previously once have only been able to express in the privacy of their own home or in the corner of a bar for them to come

together as a constituency, see and get hateful messages out to god knows how many people in the blink of an and it's blink of an eye. and it's completely despite completely unregulated, despite the that all social media the fact that all social media companies, they say they have policies against hate speech, it's still there. yes, you can complain about it and get responses from all the social media companies saying this doesn't contravene our our community . and so community standards. and so there does need to be regulation done. and we hope that the onune done. and we hope that the online harms bill will actually go some way to addressing this. but it is like the wild west. it is a cauldron of hatred out there on occasion. well hopefully today will be a moment of hope for your people and your community with lots of support on the streets of london. >> i know you have to go from here there. i wish you all here to there. i wish you all the best for later. thank the very best for later. thank you much for joining the very best for later. thank you much forjoining me you very much for joining me this morning, steve. thank you. >> camilla. >> camilla. >> you. >> camilla. » you. >> thank you. well, lots more to come, one very come, or at least one very interesting conversation coming about churchill and the people he i'm going to be speaking he met. i'm going to be speaking to mckay, to the author, sinclair mckay, about book britain's

about his new book on britain's greatest stay greatest prime minister. stay tuned that

you company right through until 7:00 this evening. gb news the people's . channel welcome people's. channel welcome back to the camilla thomas show. >> i've been looking forward to this part of the show. all of the show, because i'd like to hear about churchill and sinclair. mckay is with me now. he's a new book, he's the author of a new book, meeting life 19, meeting churchill a life in 19, counters. the book tells winston

churchill's story through churchill's life story through the of memories from 90 the prism of memories from 90 different who met him . different people who met him. sinclair through sinclair has trawled through mountains of diaries, memoirs and letters to put all this together, and it features accounts from some of the 20th, 20th century's most famous people thinking charlie chaplin, albert einstein. also some of those who were closest to him. so it really is a riveting read. let's have a look at it now just so you can see it in time for christmas in all good bookshops, as they say. sinclair it's fascinating this i mean, we know a lot the man and indeed , a lot about the man and indeed, we'll get on to it in a moment because sometimes feel as if because sometimes i feel as if history rewritten history has been rewritten slightly about churchill. but some people he met and some of the people he met and some of the people he met and some of the anecdotes about what he them and how he he said to them and how he behaved people. i mean, behaved with key people. i mean, for about for instance, tell me about charlie and this charlie chaplin and this slightly uneasy relationship he had with him. >> he he and charlie chaplin were actually they were friends. they across decades. they met across the decades. they met across the decades. they first met in 1920s hollywood. and when churchill was out there plugging one of his books and charlie chaplin

was literally the most famous man in the he much man in the world, he was much more famous churchill at more famous than churchill at that they met at some that stage. and they met at some incredibly glamorous kind of hollywood party. they couldn't quite here quite size each other up. here were wits in were two of the finest wits in the room. rapier wits, and they couldn't quite find the level to address each other. but they knew they were kind of they knew that they were kind of they were of drawn to each were sort of drawn to each other. chaplin went to stay other. then chaplin went to stay at churchill's chartwell at churchill's house, chartwell in , in the early 1930, in kent, in the early 1930, churchill took him through his whole hinterland of eccentric hobbies from the bricklaying to showing charlie chaplin the swan that he kept. >> oh, to have been a fly on the wall during that encounter. >> well, on top of that, churchill. then the churchill learnt that chaplin wanted to make a film about napoleon . we make a film about napoleon. we got scott's napoleon out make a film about napoleon. we gothe scott's napoleon out make a film about napoleon. we gothe moment.'s napoleon out make a film about napoleon. we gothe moment. i napoleon out make a film about napoleon. we gothe moment. i thinkleon out make a film about napoleon. we gothe moment. i think i'd1 out make a film about napoleon. we gothe moment. i think i'd much at the moment. i think i'd much rather seen charlie chaplin. >> absolutely. chaplin. >> and>lutely. chaplin. >> and churchill suggested some comedy ideas for it. so he was suggesting comedy ideas to chapun suggesting comedy ideas to chaplin because he was churchill was a great cineaste, and he considered himself something of an and you see them an expert. and so you see them crossing over and they meet in

the late 1950s when chaplin happens be having dinner at happens to be having dinner at the fourth wife, the ritz with his fourth wife, oona, and they discuss chaplin's last film. so yes, they crisscross the decades crisscross across the decades before we get to on some of the political relationships, i was also intrigued with how he got on with albert einstein. >> mean, hand, the >> i mean, on one hand, the great mathematician, an i don't think was particularly think churchill was particularly famed his scientific famed for his scientific mind, but mind. but more his literary mind. >> calculus. yes he that a >> calculus. yes he said that a quadratic equation was something that was at the portals of alice in wonderland. it was, yes. it just happening. just wasn't happening. he couldn't get into artillery or engineers in sandhurst military college because he didn't have the maths , but he drew the maths, but he drew mathematicians to him and physicists to him like a flame. now albert einstein was actually a rather moving meeting between them in 1933. einstein again went to visit churchill at chartwell in kent. hitler had just come to power in germany. einstein saw instantly what this meant to germany's jews, and he

led an initiative to try and get as many german physicists out of germany and into britain as possible . and churchill was possible. and churchill was fully behind this. and there's a wonderful there wasn't much of a transcript of their meeting in chartwell, but there's a wonderful photograph, them both standing garden , standing in churchill's garden, bathed of radiant bathed in this sort of radiant sun einstein, his hair standing sun, einstein, his hair standing on end, defying the laws of relativity. churchill there relativity. and churchill there in his onesies and said, in one of his onesies and said, what a wonderful meeting that was. was einstein was. and it was einstein who said churchill, he is said of churchill, he is eminently wise rather than the other way round. >> well, high praise from einstein people . and then einstein of all people. and then obviously, relationship obviously, the relationship between eisenhower between churchill and eisenhower has much written but has been much written about. but tell bit more about how tell me a bit more about how they got on. i mean, i remember studying at school, you know, them travelling around on that train in with to trying train in with regard to trying to of work out how to play to kind of work out how to play the stages of allied the next stages of the allied war effort , how did they get on? war effort, how did they get on? >> because one of the things we're quite familiar with in terms of churchill is the sheer gravity of obviously the war

effort . but on gravity of obviously the war effort. but on top of this, there were some extraordinary lighter moments that eisenhower particularly recalled. eisenhower remembered how churchill had the habit of talking late into the night about military campaigns, and he would invoke everything from greek classics to donald duck in his efforts to explain this peloponnesian wars and eisenhower loved all that. but he said when he was staying at chequers , he was put in an ice chequers, he was put in an ice cold bedroom. first of all, and a four poster bed, which he said was just something from the civil war. oliver cromwell. and he awoke in the night having had a terrible nightmare that he was being strangled. eisenhower dreamt that he was being strangled, and he to strangled, and he woke up to discover it that he discover that it wasn't that he had borrowed churchill's voluminous nightgown and it had wrapped itself around his neck throughout the course of the night. >> my goodness me. now, i would imagine as you researched this book, you may have found out a few drunk an encounters with churchill. i mean, know churchill. i mean, we know famously braddock famously that bessie braddock story. give us the line

story. just give us the line again, because i it's often again, because i know it's often repeated. but churchill said to her, repeated. her, it's often repeated. >> it's very politically >> and it's very politically incorrect. churchill well, bessie braddock said to churchill , well, bessie braddock said to churchill, well, winston , you churchill, well, winston, you are drunk and churchill said to her, madam, you are ugly. but in the morning i shall be sober. now i mean, you just a you wouldn't get away with that now, but be there. there's a postscript to that story which isn't at all known. but actually can be found in bessie braddock's own memoirs, which was first of all, she's completely glided over it. she could pretend it didn't happen. she'd been irritating and annoying churchill on purpose throughout year. throughout the year. >> and bessie braddock was a kind political adversary. >> and bessie braddock was a kind explain. cal adversary. just explain. >> a ferocious left wing >> she was a ferocious left wing liverpool mp , full of kind of liverpool mp, full of kind of absolute brimstone, loathe , absolute brimstone, loathe, absolute brimstone, loathe, absolute tribal loathing of churchill . churchill. >> but actually behind the scenes it wasn't as straightforward as that. she admitted that, yes, he was actually the greatest living englishman. and on of that, englishman. and on top of that, he actually quite large he had actually quite a large regard for he put her on a

regard for her. he put her on a special commission for mental health in 1950s, in his health in the 1950s, in his second term as prime minister. and introduced him to a and she introduced him to a nigerian boxer, a heavyweight champion , who had come over to champion, who had come over to britain , and she desperately britain, and she desperately wanted to introduce him to churchill because he idolised churchill because he idolised churchill . so were churchill. and so there were moments of of honeyed moments of kind of honeyed accord between them. know, accord between them. you know, they're one they're famous for that one story. but actually, churchill they're famous for that one story. bileft:tually, churchill they're famous for that one story. bileft wing], churchill they're famous for that one story. bileft wing opponents and his left wing opponents often on fantastically well. often got on fantastically well. >> i mean, was a sociable >> i mean, was he a sociable man? obviously, he wanted to gather great and the good gather the great and the good around was interesting, around him. he was interesting, interested in meeting interesting people of the era. absolutely. and yet , at the same absolutely. and yet, at the same time, you one gets this time, you know, one gets this picture him with his black picture of him with his black dog and him disappearing into the countryside at chartwell and painting paintings that actually he was a bit of an isolationist figure. but perhaps that's not the all, the case. i think at all, because lived over the space because he lived over the space of 90 years. >> i mean, he was born in 1874, the late autumn of the victorian era. lived the way era. he lived right the way through to 1965 and the rolling stones. and course of stones. and in the course of those 90 he becomes those 90 years, he becomes

almost like a sort of shakespearean character. and in the sheer depth and range of his humanity , i mean, the black dog humanity, i mean, the black dog depressions are a kind of famous they're possibly some slightly overdone because there are others that, in others who suggest that, in fact, wasn't kind of fact, he wasn't kind of manic depressive. he just had episodes where all got too much. and where it all got too much. and given the gravity of everything that dealing yes. that he was dealing with. yes. but, know, in the but, you know, not just in the war, but, you know, the first world sudan and world war fighting in sudan and all of it would be all the rest of it would be understandable. but yes, that extraordinary cavalcade, he met a of everyone, a new kind of everyone, rupert, brooke , uh, violet, asquith, brooke, uh, violet, asquith, lawrence of arabia. and he was a great friends. and then latterly he knew some figures such as gracie fields, maria callas. this is a life that takes in not just politics and not just war either , because we know him either, because we know him primarily for war, but he had a fantastic passion for kind of art and literature and yes, science to his great friend, professor frederick lindemann, who's physicist who could have who's a physicist who could have taught him the rudiments and led to churchill predicting ng wireless technology back in

1931. he made a speech . he 1931. he made a speech. he wrote, no, he wrote an article in 1931 saying that given our current technology in 1931, we can predict that there will be wireless televisions and wireless televisions and wireless telephones, which will enable people to meet up almost as if they were meeting up across a city. but they wouldn't have to move from their rooms. >> and that very prescient. but at the same time, let's talk about some of the kind of revisionism that we've witnessed about some of the kind of re\ recent m that we've witnessed about some of the kind of re\ recent m thatine've witnessed about some of the kind of re1recentm thati mean, fitnessed about some of the kind of re1recentm thati mean, thisssed in recent years. i mean, this idea of recasting churchill, who many in he was many regard in fact, he was voted greatest briton of voted as the greatest briton of all yes. as sort of more all time. yes. as sort of more villainous than that. i mean, what's your on it, sinclair what's your take on it, sinclair well, my take on is that well, my take on it is that churchill was certainly a child of empire . of empire. >> and he throughout his life, he was bathed in nostalgia for he was bathed in a nostalgia for its golden sunsets. he had a very particular view of empire, which was kind of natural because it was that was the world in which he grew up, and that was the air that he breathed. but you know, the current accusations are that he was a white supremacist ,

current accusations are that he was a white supremacist, an imperialist, a racist and a just that. you can find you can find episodes of that happening . but episodes of that happening. but it isn't necessarily the whole story . so, for instance , during story. so, for instance, during the war, when black gis over in britain were being segregated by their officers and not being allowed to go into pubs and cinemas, it was churchill and the cabinet who who objected to this saying this is outrageous. you you cannot american you you cannot have american style britain. style segregation in britain. that's even that's absolutely wrong. even before 1904, when he was before that, 1904, when he was a liberal mp , the very first ever liberal mp, the very first ever bill aliens bill that was called to limit the numbers of immigration to britain, it was churchill who put out a pamphlet arguing against that. so he was arguing against that. so he was a complex case of refuge and asylum. so yes, it's complex to people have always stuck labels on him . when i was growing up, on him. when i was growing up, he was the blood soaked warmonger. yes. who carpet bombed civilians, but people didn't hear a worship at the time either. maybe we should just a bit more nuanced . just be a bit more nuanced. >> mckay's book here,

>> sinclair mckay's book here, it's churchill and it's it's meeting churchill and it's available in all good bookshops. thank much for coming. thank you very much for coming. thank you very much for coming. thank you very much for having me me about it. me and talking to me about it. i'll, course, be back next i'll, of course, be back next week at 930. but up next, it's michael portillo. have a great .

sunday good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. >> as winter descends , warm >> as winter descends, warm yourself by a hearth ablaze with arts, culture, politics and world affairs to start , i'll be world affairs to start, i'll be joined by an excellent political panel to discuss the chancellor's autumn statement. the headline was a national insurance cut . but how else will insurance cut. but how else will the statement affect you and will the economy be boosted or hindered by the unprecedented migration figures released this week showing that the united kingdom population grew by almost three quarters of a million people last year as the horrors of the conflict in the middle east have consumed the media's attention. we are in dangeh media's attention. we are in danger, perhaps, of forgetting the existential battle being fought by ukraine against russian invaders . russia has russian invaders. russia has been launching fierce offensive in ukraine's east to capture the town of advocare so far with little success. but ukraine is

still at a gross disadvantage in