series. i've been able to bring in some of my smartest and most amusing friends to contribute. but i have other friends who aren't particularly interesting or attractive, and they keep pestering me to be on the show . pestering me to be on the show. so i'm going to devote an entire program to these hangers on just to get them off my back . thank to get them off my back. thank you . a few weeks ago i was you. a few weeks ago i was talking to an audience and when we got to the q&a , the first we got to the q&a, the first question guy in the front row said, i said, yes. he said, do you think matthew syed should be our next prime minister and i said, yes . so our next prime minister and i said, yes. so thanks for being here. it's a pleasure. >> this person, did he bear a

passing resemblance to me.7 was it my brother? no >> no, it was the nice thing was there was a kind of general hum from these 400 people. so no, i don't know where to start with you. do we start with ping pong or . or sunday you. do we start with ping pong or. or sunday times? i got very offended when they call it here. >> it makes it sound like a jumped up parlour game roughly equivalent to tiddlywinks, as we know. i hope people in this know. and i hope people in this room know a globally room know it's a globally competitive sport. room know it's a globally competiour sport. room know it's a globally competiour sporifriends why >> tell our dear friends why we're talking about table tennis i >> -- >> so -- >>so| >> so i this is 5mm >> so i this is a slightly odd thing to admit, but i was the british table tennis number one for ten years. ten years and three times commonwealth champion. the weird thing, though, i'm 52 and at the time at the time i was playing table tennis this was like the dominant thing in my life. i'd wake up thinking about table tennis. i'd practice before school after school holidays , school after school holidays, weekends, getting to the top of table tennis was my raison debt, and my parents were behind it because i was passionate about

it. i had a wonderful coach. i grew up in suburban, reading and it turns out i should. i should mention this, that i grew up in suburban reading street suburban reading the street silverdale road had more than half the top table tennis players in the country. what what more than half the top in the country. and there were 50,000 paid subscribers to the governing body, about a million recreational players. so was recreational players. so it was an unbelievable concentration of fantastic ping pong with weapons right in this totally ordinary . right in this totally ordinary. >> all right. so what's that about? >> so this the explanation, it form the start of my first ever book bounce. i was trying to deconstruct what it is that enables people to get good at what they wish to get good at. and obviously, talent plays a factor. but opportunity the school aldrington school, there was a primary school teacher who was a primary school teacher who was a primary school teacher who was a ping pong fanatic and the best coach in the country and just by silverdale road, there

was a club. now, in most parts of the country, you want to play table tennis, you have to go to the municipal sports centre, but you can't go to take. you're waiting for the yoga to finish or the bag. but there was or the bag. but here there was a purpose 24 hour. it was purpose built 24 hour. it was only one table it was only one table and it was a wooden shack really. but we were all street, had a set of all on the street, had a set of keys so we could go any time. we could go and we're clocking up and we're practising and we're playing. it. and playing. we're loving it. and this is coming and this coach is coming in and giving perfect technique. giving us a perfect technique. and ordinary group and so a totally ordinary group of young kids. so what age are you? >> soi you? >> so i started playing at 999, and i became the top player in my age group at about 11. >> and then it dominates my life through till the age of 33. and it's only then as i'm slowing down that i realise my father was telling the truth when i said want school said i want to leave school after my o—levels. he said, yeah, can't play table yeah, but you can't play table tennis . you're going to be tennis. you're going to be a retired long time. and then retired a long time. and then i'm thinking, right, have to i'm thinking, right, i have to reinvent and then i go into reinvent it. and then i go into into writing. having got to the

end of the career of table tennis what a what tennis and thinking what a what a career i've had. i a brilliant career i've had. i look back on it now and i think, what on earth was i doing? what was i? you know, you've got this this white ball you this tiny white ball and, you know, the five years i'm know, the last five years i'm trying improve trying trying to improve my technique. from like technique. and i moved from like 23in the world to 22. what was the point ? who cares? you know, the point? who cares? you know, what was i thinking of? there were so many other things to do. >> what find sometimes >> what i find sometimes i just think extraordinary think the extraordinary obsession that you seem to need to become absolutely top class. it's one of the things i don't like about writing is about the only thing i don't like about writing is that some point it always comes an obsession. yes. you know , and picasso did not you know, and picasso did not stop at 3:00 to play tennis. you know, you need that kind of obsession. i think unless you know, to get right up there. i think that's right. >> and i think it's a shame sometimes when people say, you know, this person hasn't had a good work life balance. isn't

that kind of morally reprehensible? but you look at the wright brothers who created powered flight, you read the biographies and the author biographies. they were absolutely fanatic about getting this thing off the or this thing off the ground or newton or marie curie or, you know, in some tiger woods, it wasn't actually a healthy life to try and become the best golfer started. >> trouble so many of the of >> so trouble so many of the of the greatest artists were pretty neurotic . but of course that's neurotic. but of course that's because they were obsessional there was no balance there at all. >> but but there are certain activities where these people probably have tough lives. then neurotic, you know, they get burnt out, but they give to society city a new technology , a society city a new technology, a new way of thinking, a great piece of art. yes. you can look back on your life and say, right, fawlty towers life , life right, fawlty towers life, life of brian, say the name again . a of brian, say the name again. a fish called wanda . and these are fish called wanda. and these are the brilliant , you know, at the brilliant, you know, at least am i right in thinking that you look back ? i can't look

that you look back? i can't look back on table tennis. i can throw anything. no one watches me on youtube. the two clips that are out there smashing against the david mellor, this is not a legacy. >> now, when i asked you to come on, i said to you, is there something that you would particularly want to talk about ? particularly want to talk about? now's your chance . now's your chance. >> it's something that i think we don't talk about enough. and i think because it's a bit depressing, but actually we need to confront difficult truths and it's that as a civilisation we crossed a very interesting rubicon in the 1950s. we had developed the power to destroy ourselves as a species. so the number of nuclear weapons that were on the planet in the 1950s and since and still today was sufficient to destroy humanity many times over. >> you notice putin was boasting that he'd got more than we have . that he'd got more than we have. >> i think he's right about that . oh, you think putin has more?

i don't think you need many to cause a bit of a problem . cause a bit of a problem. exactly. what's fascinating ing is that science is an inherently unpredictable trajectory. we don't know what scientists are going to discover next. they don't know either. by definition , they're going into the terrain of the unknown. the same with technology. and yet we have now developed ever more technologies that confer an existential risk on the species, one that's come up recently is artificial intelligence . generalised ai may intelligence. generalised ai may pose a threat to humanity, but there's also, for example, bacteriological warfare. we know from covid that you could easily manufacture presumably a pathogen with a long incubation penod pathogen with a long incubation period , but a very high period, but a very high infection fatality rate. and if a if a scientist using genetic sequencing was able to do that and unleash it, it could kill billions of people within months . and as i understand it, we are moving much the democratisation of technology . erg means that

of technology. erg means that we're conferring more power on individuals and in a population globally of 8 billion people, there's always going to be fanatics, psychopaths , people fanatics, psychopaths, people who, for whatever reason , are who, for whatever reason, are willing to inflict damage on the rest of humanity. this seems to me we are not giving any attention to this at all. and what worries me is i sometimes worry that the woke in anti—woke debate is just a gigantic piece of freudian displacement. it's almost like the big challenge of existential risk is so big that let's just have a chat about these completely irrelevant ephemera and we don't have to deal with it. well, that's what the internet is looking like more and more. >> even the even the news sites that i used to go to get more trivial every month, right . trivial every month, right. >> it's almost like when the world reached a place after 250,000 years of humanity where we actually now realistically could destroy ourselves within certainly within 50 years, the former astronomer general said,

this is mankind's last century. he wrote a book on the topic. many of the people that i bump into in academic circles are convinced we won't make it to the next century. yet the the next century. and yet the whole popular culture is kind whole of popular culture is kind of videos of people of funny. videos of people falling over on the internet in the political debate is thrashing around in the shallows of decadence and superficiality . of decadence and superficiality. >> anything else is scaring the excrement out of you. >> well , these the characters in >> well, these the characters in this room scare me enormously. yeah. there is something intimidating. >> they're all robots, right? >> they're all robots, right? >> are they ai? >> are they ai? >> yeah, all of them. they were ones that had gone a bit wrong. >> is one of the most. >> so we got them cheap. >> so we got them cheap. >> it's amazing. it's amazing. >> it's amazing. it's amazing. >> well, thank you, matthew. we'll pick up this conversation again later on. >> thank you, john. great to . >> thank you, john. great to. see now, as i expect you've heard, we've had a lot of complaints about the music. >> but i think it's quite good. and i'm going to chat to ben

castle now, who wrote it. i'm very, very pleased to have you because of your dad . because of your dad. >> oh, that's nice. >> oh, that's nice. >> tell me about roy. >> tell me about roy. >> well , he >> tell me about roy. >> well, he was a >> tell me about roy. >> well , he was a lovely >> tell me about roy. >> well, he was a lovely dad to have been gifted with. >> he could do anything, couldn't he? he was a wonderful dancen he couldn't he? he was a wonderful dancer. he could sing . he could dancer. he could sing. he could play dancer. he could sing. he could play musical instruments. he could play sketches. could. could play sketches. he could. he was just wonderful. he was one of my favourite performers in my youth. >> oh, that's amazing. >> oh, that's amazing. >> loved him. every time >> really loved him. every time he was a kind of he came on there was a kind of cheery freshness about him, and i just adored him. cheery freshness about him, and ijust adored him. so it's great i just adored him. so it's great to have you here doing the music. >> oh, thank you. >> oh, thank you. >> i want to ask you . >> i want to ask you. >> i want to ask you. >> thanks. thanks very much . >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thank you. yeah, but what i want to know, you play a massive number of instruments. want to know, you play a massive number of instruments . what have number of instruments. what have we got here? that's. those are drums , right? drums, right? >> yeah, those are drums. that's the electric bass. oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> now, these look very old. are they, roman or etruscan or. >> this saxophone is the >> this. this saxophone is the one the normans played . oh, one the normans played. oh, really? yeah. yeah.

>> this one at the time >> this very one at the time they built the castle, it was actually. >> it was actually left here. they left it here. they left it. i think they thought they might have the following have another gig. the following yeah have another gig. the following year. yeah, yeah. year. yeah, yeah, yeah. >> they came. >> and then they never came. >> and then they never came. >> know, we all know what >> well know, we all know what happened what that? happened and what is that? >> that's not a violin. >> now, that's not a violin. >> now, that's not a violin. >> no, i don't so. when i >> no, i don't think so. when i bought it, it said flute on the, on the flute, on the package. on on the flute, on the package. >> yeah. >> right. yeah. >> right. yeah. >> that's it. and this. this is. this is an flute. so . henry this is an alto flute. so. henry mancini used these a lot in his pink panther themes and. >> and what i find astounding, ben, is that you just pick that thing up and suddenly something quite beautiful happens . quite beautiful happens. >> well, i still find it astounding as well. well, i hope something beautiful happens. it's not always the case. >> what i'm interested in is the. the music effects me really emotionally . that's what i want emotionally. that's what i want from music. yeah and a lot of my

friends say you don't like music. and i say, no, i don't like a lot of music. i prefer total silence to a lot of music, you know? yeah. so what else have you got there that you can demonstrate anything on? >> so, yes, this is the saxophone . saxophone. >> oh, what are you doing that with your fingers, wasn't it? >> it was just a little cassette machine i've got in there. yes. so so just to make me look good, i just don't know how people can do this , but for me, i almost do this, but for me, i almost feel guilty every day that my hobby is, is my career. yeah, because i love it. >> thanks for the dad like yours . you weren't being told to get a proper job. yeah that's it. >> he would have been very upset if i'd become a heart surgeon or something. >> now play something just at the end, which is the double bass. >> the double bass .

>> the double bass. >> the double bass. >> oh, that's that one. >> oh, that's that one. >> that's this one. yes. this is the aerophone. yeah, right . and the aerophone. yeah, right. and ihave the aerophone. yeah, right. and i have a laser phone in my pocket. just. just being a prototype . well, actually, this prototype. well, actually, this this is called the nose flute. but with this , you're blowing but with this, you're blowing with your nose and the shape of your mouth determines the note . your mouth determines the note. so . unbelievable this has now so. unbelievable this has now beethoven didn't write a concerto for that. >> it's still to come out if he did. >> yeah, it'll be found one day. >> yeah, it'll be found one day. >> people are looking into it to just do the theme. come on, berglund. oh ipp berglund. oh |pp . i berglund. oh ipp . i love you . ipp. i love you. >> oh, i love you, too . thanks. >> oh, i love you, too. thanks. thanks so much,

>> only on gb news the people's channel >> only on gb news the people's channel, britain's news channel . channel, britain's news channel. >> and now sir trevor mcdonald , >> and now sir trevor mcdonald, thank you so much for doing this silly show. great pleasure . real silly show. great pleasure. real pleasure. you see, what fascinates me about you, sir trevor, is that you've been working in british television since 1973. >> it's a very long time. 50 years? yeah >> what i want to know is how has it changed over that time ? has it changed over that time? >> my impression is that every thing happens much more quickly now and you don't have as much time to make up your mind about what you say and how you're going to present what you say. and it's not easy anyway these days to get a fair idea of what's going on in in some situations you have to work very hard. yes at discovering i mean,

one of the things that was remarkable about you is that you always wanted to get out there and find out what was really happening on the ground. >> i mean, you went straight off to northern ireland. >> go to northern >> i wanted to go to northern ireland. i must confess here partly for personal reasons. i was employed by itn and i had absolutely no reason why they gave me this job. and i wanted to make sure that i was doing what everybody else was doing . what everybody else was doing. in other words, to put it very bluntly, i didn't want to be the token black man on itn. i wanted token black man on itn. i wanted to do what everybody else was doing . and as you say, it doing. and as you say, it resulted in my going to northern ireland, which was probably one of the most extraordinary things i've ever done. i'd never heard a bomb go off before i went to belfast. i could hardly spell kalashnikov if i didn't know what what that word meant. and here was i thrown into this situation . an but i learnt a lot

i >> -- >> what did you learn, though, when you were in a situation like that with violence all around you? what do you learn? >> i began to understand what the problems were all about and i'll just give you one example. there were always difficulties about the so—called marching season , and i thought, what's season, and i thought, what's the problem about marching ? you the problem about marching? you could march wherever you like . could march wherever you like. that's not the point . the that's not the point. the protestants wanted to march down the catholic areas , the national the catholic areas, the national lists of the catholics wanted to march down. the protestant areas. there was almost a kind of aggression to the politics. there was a very strong kind of religious base to some of this . religious base to some of this. i remember once i frequently say to my friends, i stumbled into an argument about my communities and mixed races and mixed areas.

and i hadn't got hold of exactly what was happening. and i said, i don't understand what your problem was about. mixed areas or mixed communities. you know. and i said, i have a mixed marriage, for example . and they marriage, for example. and they said, is your wife catholic? i said, is your wife catholic? i said, no, she's white. but immediately , you see, they immediately, you see, they thought there was a religious bias to everything . that was bias to everything. that was what i took away from from i'm kind of interested, though, whether you had whether you learned anything about human nature from that kind of thing and also from. >> well, let me ask you, you interviewed saddam hussein . interviewed saddam hussein. what's that like ? what's that like? >> yeah . saddam hussein was >> yeah. saddam hussein was a fascinating interview in the fact that he had not done many .

fact that he had not done many. and i think it was the only one that he did for british tv. so i had the weight of expectation on me that i was the only one who was going to be able to see him. so i was terrified. and he had a pretty awful reputation . some he pretty awful reputation. some he told me, in fact, that there was one meeting at which some minister began to voice a disagreement about something with him. saddam hussein took the minister out, shot him , the minister out, shot him, continued, and continued the meeting as though nothing had happened, and so i was i was terrified about about doing this. but. >> but you weren't physically frightened? >> no. you had to you had to. you know, my man up. >> and what was the fear? was it just being with someone who was so ruthless? i thought that i would say something which he

would say something which he would not like. >> and he would say, i did not like this. and it would get a little awkward . and nothing like little awkward. and nothing like that happened . what i learned that happened. what i learned was that it was so rare for people to see him being talked to and being asked to, you know, being made to answer questions. there were about half a dozen of his ministers sitting around my interview and i got a little annoyed and i said, what are you guys doing here? don't you have anything else to do on an evening? and they took me aside and they said, you don't quite understand, do you? we never see him being asked questions , which him being asked questions, which he made to answer. him being asked questions, which he made to answer . and then he made to answer. and then leading on from that at the end of the interview, i went back to my hotel suite and did discovered that that there were about half a dozen people from the ministry of information in my hotel suite drinking my whisky and which didn't please me too much. and they said, how

was it? and i went on about the interview. and you know what i said and how he responded and so on.and said and how he responded and so on. and they were quite nonplussed about this until i discovered that what they were really saying to me was , what really saying to me was, what was he like ? and it took me was he like? and it took me a little bit to understand that they had never met him. they had never been in the same room with the president of iraq . so he was the president of iraq. so he was a dictator who kept a long way from his people all his edicts went out and this is why dictatorships always go wrong, because in the end, there are only told what people think they want to hear. >> that's right. that's right. tell me about the greatest nelson mandela . nelson mandela. >> i found him one of the most extraordinary people i'd ever met. i couldn't understand how someone who had spent 27 years behind bars could emerge so

conspicuously and bitter about about anything that had happened to him. and i had sort of very good reason to think about that even more profoundly when i met him after the first interview, five years later, when there was the south african world, the rugby world cup, which was being held in south africa, and i went to do an interview with him very early in the morning. one day of the matches at and he said , the matches at and he said, could you have the lights turned down? and we did . and he said, down? and we did. and he said, could you turn them down a little bit more? and we did. and he asked he said just a little tweak down again. and i said, you know, mr president, the problem is this is television and we need the lights. and if we turn them down any more, they would not be able to see you or me when this is transmitted. and he apologised immediately. he was extremely gracious was always extremely gracious and he said, no, i have had problems with my eyes and so on. i've had splinters in my eyes

and he then went on to say , from and he then went on to say, from breaking rocks on robben island , breaking rocks on robben island, and i thought looking at this presidential figure , i couldn't presidential figure, i couldn't actually construct in my mind the scene when he'd been made to break rocks and robben island. but yes, that's that's what happened. and yet he never , happened. and yet he never, never dwelt on any of that . and never dwelt on any of that. and i had forced it out of him with this stolen story about the lights . and so what i found lights. and so what i found about him was that he had this view that he could play a part in changing the south african system . and in changing the south african system .and i in changing the south african system . and i challenged him on system. and i challenged him on this because i thought, you know, i'd been to south africa before, and i thought there were pretty implacable about what they wanted to with their they wanted to do with their country. and i thought it'd be very difficult for any one man, even mandela, to change this . even mandela, to change this. and he said to me and i've always remembered this, he said ,

always remembered this, he said, if you're prepared to sit down and talk serious , ali, then and talk serious, ali, then everything is possible. and i said, no, no, no. but not everything is possible. some of the peripheral things are possible. but the fundamental principles remain and they can't be changed. and he said, no, everything is possible if you're to prepared sit down and talk seriously early and to compromise . yeah, and for compromise. yeah, and for somebody who'd been put behind bars for 27 years as coming out and talking about the ability to compromise , as if i'd been in compromise, as if i'd been in prison for 27 days as compromise would not be the first thing on my mind. on on coming out. and he is able to do that with that that conviction. and it worked to some extent. you know , yes, to some extent. you know, yes, he changed he changed the face of south africa with the cooperation of people who began to see the virtue of doing this like like the clerk the clerk

did very well. yeah, he did very well. and they both got the nobel prize. >> yeah. yes, that was good. >> yeah. yes, that was good. >> that's right. that's good. yeah >> well, thank you so much . i >> well, thank you so much. i really appreciate it. thank you .

and now i'm going to have a chat with our resident pollster , with our resident pollster, frank luntz. frankie, thank you for being here. de—man. >> i wouldn't miss this for the world. >> oh, that's lovely. now, when i met you the second time in an elevator , you were amused that elevator, you were amused that i'd just read your book. yes right. >> you made me speechless . >> you made me speechless. >> you made me speechless. >> and what was the name of the book? >> words that work. >> words that work. >> so explain why , by your >> so explain why, by your expertise, helped you to write that book. >> so my job is to understand how americans feel. it's actually a global experience and

to know the power of words to change minds, to change hearts, to be able to communicate to you. but how did you discover that? i discovered it by accident . i had been told, thank accident. i had been told, thank you very much . you're welcome . you very much. you're welcome. good boy. so there's a difference , by the way, between difference, by the way, between he's a worker versus an employee. so i realised how well dressed he is . clearly dressed he is. clearly polyester. not. not natural fibres. if you call him a worker that means he works 9 to 5. if you call him an employee, that suggests that he has a career. that suggests something significant. so even though you may not like him , i could may not like him, i could understand why. yeah just by changing how you label him, you change his relationship with you and your relationship with him. yeah, i get that. >> but what i'm interested in is how do you know which is the better? you said to me once you said, never say you write anything. or we say you craft it because writing is pedestrian .

because writing is pedestrian. >> yeah. the two gentlemen playing chess right now, they could be writers , but if you could be writers, but if you craft something that suggests something special, an expertise. but how did you acquire your expertise? >> i mean, were you always listening as you were at oxford for a year? >> i hated it. >> i hated it. >> yeah, i know. >> yeah, i know. >> but did you? every minute. and you can see i hated every minute that i wear the i wear the union. jack with pride. i'm an anglophile. i love being an anglophile. i love your work. i love the comedy. i love the culture. and i look at my country and i'm so disappointed and i hate these americans who come to a foreign country and bash their own . and i find bash their own. and i find myself doing it because we're not the same country. don't move that, by the way, put that put that, by the way, put that put that pawn back. that is not the move. the move would have been your queen. come on, put the pawn back. yeah, the queen. and don't screw that up. and by the way, i just want you all to know the nuns behind us. yes. they're

cheating. unless you deal with that, you're cheating, pamela. >> yes. she nodded . how do you >> yes. she nodded. how do you know? but i watched this when you were. when you were at oxford. were you already noticing this business about the words? it's fascinating. but what where did the impulse come from to study this to see which words are good and which aren't? where did it come from? >> it came from a speaker of the house named newt gingrich and he said to me, we don't have a language guy. we don't have a we have a theoretician , but we have a theoretician, but we don't have someone who focuses on the messaging. would you be willing to do that? this happenedin willing to do that? this happened in 1993 and the first examination i did of this was the was the idea of the difference between an orphanage and a foster home or a foster home. sounds nicer, but it's actually much worse than an orphanage . and newt gingrich orphanage. and newt gingrich right around christmas time of 1994, talks about the importance

of supporting orphanages and the pubuc of supporting orphanages and the public condemned him. he lost his significant support because all they could think of was tiny tim and a christmas carol. and it made newt gingrich into the grinch. that's gingrich the ganh grinch. that's gingrich the grinch that stole christmas. that was the first time that i studied language. if you call something an estate tax , you're something an estate tax, you're rich. if you call it a death tax, you just died. if you call it climate change, it's not so bad if you call it global warming. it's really frightening .even warming. it's really frightening . even in the stuff that we dnnk. . even in the stuff that we drink . you call this drink. you call this a carbonated. it means that it's got chemicals. you call this sparkling . it's a fun taste of sparkling. it's a fun taste of the mouth if you call it gambling , you're addicted. if gambling, you're addicted. if you call it gaming, that's las vegas . vegas. >> that's very good. those are good examples because i always wonder when people buy pre—owned cars whether they would have bought a used car.

>> yes, but you missed it. it's certified pre—owned . if it's certified pre—owned. if it's certified pre—owned. if it's certified to guarantee that someone beat the crap out of your car. but the word certify fide is significant . it's fide is significant. it's powerful. and we see it right now, even even in the terminology of the government , terminology of the government, the respect that people have . the respect that people have. it's not about diversity. it's not about inclusion. it's about respect. if i show you respect, that's the highest value that i can demonstrate to you. i respect your craft, i respect your humour. >> you got this information from a poll, from polling and focus groups and asking questions , groups and asking questions, which has a bigger impact on you, which matters more. you were asking individuals, correct? yeah >> okay. a typical survey. don't make. he's a really bad player. you you . i wouldn't pay you you. i wouldn't pay attention to him. why don't you resign now and you can go and have a drink. >> but is it just so distracting . and even looking around this room, i see that he's wearing a

white jacket , which you should white jacket, which you should not do until the 4th of july. >> and i see that the two of them are drinking with hats inside and they should not be wearing them. i see the nuns back notice that back there. i notice that they're cheating. have to they're cheating. you have to look is no joke. you look and this is no joke. you actually study how people look at you when i talk to you, you make eye contact . most people make eye contact. most people don't. most people know that surprises me. >> most people don't. >> most people don't. >> people don't because >> most people don't because they're intimidated so they're intimidated by it. so when they see that someone's looking at them, they'll look down, around. down, they'll look around. they don't direct to don't pay direct attention to it. i see how this room is, is constructed. i see how far the tables are from each other. i see where the lights are placed. >> you see, one of the things i do in this area is in this series, i'm trying to be closer to the people i'm interviewing because i think that gives a slight sense of intimacy and people are more likely to forget the surroundings and get involved in the conversation. >> and what's different from this is most shows that are discussion oriented, you're on a

couch or you've got a chair and the guests are on a couch. this is much more personal. you've got your chair, i've got my chair. this is how you elicit how people really feel. we're afraid , ed, to say what we afraid, ed, to say what we really think. we're afraid of being cancelled . we're afraid of being cancelled. we're afraid of being cancelled. we're afraid of being judged . and your effort is being judged. and your effort is to bring out the truth and there's nothing more important than the truth . and this is why than the truth. and this is why i'm in the great why i'm in great britain and not in the us, because the us has lost respect for the truth. our politicians, our business leaders, the substance of these conversations are so important right now . but are so important right now. but we say things to make ourselves look good. yeah rather than what we truly feel. and the challenge right now is how do you tell the truth so that people trust you ? truth so that people trust you? how do you know that what you read is the truth? how do you know that? what you see on the bbc or itn or channel 4? how do you know that it's the truth? because if we lose the truth, we

lose democracy. absolutely my greatest fear and you have it in britain with your former prime minister boris johnson. we have it in america with donald trump. but two of them, the way, but the two of them, by the way, they're not the same. boris >> they have a lot of similarities. boris has written more books than trump has read. >> yes, trump is coloured in more books than than boris more books than than than boris has there's something has written. there's something i want you to see. i don't know if there's a way to get my. yes, lewis, can we get frankie's computer here? >> oh, look , he's having >> oh, look, he's having a little drink. aren't you, sweetie? oh, that reminds me of your second wife. oh . okay tell your second wife. oh. okay tell me what this is about. and we can. we can show it to the audience, too. >> we asked the question about what mattered most to democracy, to the future of the country, and nothing matters more than the truth. this has been my life for the last ten years. on the passionate pursuit of the truth. no matter what. >> if i don't have the truth,

how on earth do i know how to vote? or what movement to attach myself and the good news is that's exactly what the popular nafion that's exactly what the popular nation thinks as well. >> even more than transparency, even more than integrity. without the truth, you cannot have a strong democracy. you cannot have an effective media. you cannot have a performing academia. nothing can function without the truth . and this without the truth. and this allows to us say to our elected officials, look me straight in the eye and tell me what really is not what you want it to be, but any of them going to do that? >> frankie? i mean, they're all minding their own backs, aren't they ? they? >> there's some things more important than an election. there is some things more important than making people feel good. >> yes, but they've got to be very special. people before they feel that, don't they ? feel that, don't they? >> but have to hope that we >> but we have to hope that we have them. clearly have enough of them. clearly it's not necessarily in the leadership in your country or my country. and it's why i left my country. and it's why i left my

country. it's why i'm here right now. >> 9 you basically now. >> you basically switched >> so if you basically switched residents every year, i come here for 2 or 3 months to get my beanngs here for 2 or 3 months to get my bearings again to get my oh, he switched it on for us again. i do notice here, frankie down bottom right . and all the things bottom right. and all the things that are least important are seriousness , tolerance, seriousness, tolerance, tolerance, respect , affiliation, tolerance, respect, affiliation, dignity and clarity . yes. how dignity and clarity. yes. how can you have truth without clarity? this is very strange . clarity? this is very strange. >> i do find it interesting that even even your cat understands the importance of this . john, the importance of this. john, you make people laugh. you make people feel good for 30 minutes at a time or in a movie, 90 minutes and at two hours. but so many people are so afraid of the future. they are so concerned about their families. yes, about freedom . and they don't have the freedom. and they don't have the answers to fix it . the economic answers to fix it. the economic challenges right now gave rise to boris johnson in this country

and donald trump in america. the feeling of being ignored or forgotten, left behind , even forgotten, left behind, even betrayed. these are serious emotions that lead to january 6th, that lead to conflict and if we don't address them, then even a master showman , a master even a master showman, a master comedian, a craftsman on with words , even we will fail. words, even we will fail. >> do you think there's anything that i >> do you think there's anything thati or >> do you think there's anything that i or you or somebody listening in can do now to help, to make things just a tiny bit better ? better? >> you have to demand that people look you straight and eye, straight in the eye, and tell you the way things are. you have to insist that where you get your news is accurate . it get your news is accurate. it factual and compress offensive. so you get all sides of the story. yes. when i first met you, i was pretty partisan and i was very careful about having . was very careful about having. >> you were centre right when you first met me. >> but but i was partisan and

i'm not partisan anymore. my fear is, is that the left does it and the right does it. yeah. the the right may do it better than the left, but they both try to do it and in the end we have to do it and in the end we have to reject that. we have to say enoughis to reject that. we have to say enough is enough in fact, the word that i love more than any other word the english other word in the english language reconciliation. language was reconciliation. yeah the that these british yeah the idea that these british chess players and these alcoholics sitting right there and the nuns that are behind me can actually get along. yeah, that was my goal. >> have fun together. yeah. >> have fun together. yeah. >> and now it's empathy . yeah. >> and now it's empathy. yeah. it's knowing where you come from, knowing what you're challenges are, and actually showing some heart . challenges are, and actually showing some heart. not just head, but heart to one other question. >> will you shut up? yes >> will you shut up? yes >> yes. you can ask me anything. >> yes. you can ask me anything. >> i've always wanted to say that someone . now, when you were

that someone. now, when you were a kid in redding, tell me you were a person of colour. you were a person of colour. you were regarded as a person of colour. how were you treated by the by the whites ? the by the whites? >> well, so the school i went to, you leave the school and there's a little parade of shops and on the door of this was for years there was a do you remember the nf the national front . front. >> oh yeah. >> oh yeah. >> it was kick effing peas out of this country. vote nf your first reaction is of shock, but do you kind of finish up thinking rubbish? >> well, at the time i definitely struggled with the fact the first girl i asked to date me, yvonne , and this would date me, yvonne, and this would have been in the second year of senior school. >> you know, it took a bit of courage, you know, as a ping pong wasn't unfashionable, but, you know, she said, pick on you know, and she said, pick on someone your colour . and

someone of your own colour. and i was like, heartbroken. i really, really liked her. i really, really liked her. and i thought, a disaster. and thought, this is a disaster. and i i'd bed and i remember i'd go to bed and wake up having dreamt that i was white and up thinking, white and wake up thinking, damn, still i'm still brown damn, i'm still i'm still brown as well. and two wonderful as well. and i had two wonderful parents you brilliant loved parents that you brilliant loved me. it was i wouldn't want me. and it was i wouldn't want to say anything negative about my child in that but yes, my child in that sense. but yes, i of it all the i was conscious of it all the time and nf was still there . time and the nf was still there. i went first football game i went to first football game reading the p—word was shouted liberally . that was the first liberally. that was the first club game. you or other people at me and more because it was it was quite unusual to have a brown skinned kid going to a football game in the first national team match that i went to. was this a test of your knowledge here? all right. it was it was england against czechoslovakia and the first ever black person to play in the england men's national team. do you have any inkling of who that because you know your sport is a defender , no defender ? viv defender, no defender? viv

anderson and my mum takes me and andy, my brother, we go to wembley and i remember getting a hot dog from the van and we thought it was very extravagant to buy like £0.20 or something. and we got in and the and the n—word liberally and n—word was liberally used and monkey chants. so, so john, growing up , monkey chants. so, so john, growing up, was it let me ask you this . you this. >> why they do it . >> why do they do it. >> why do they do it. >> fear of the other a way of bonding with each other at school. there was a teacher who used the p word to my face many, many times. but you know what i would say? >> you know, you see what is interesting to me is we're saying, yes, right. but you know, you even say short. yes >> even saying even saying that is now . is now. >> is that right? >> is that right? >> but but that for me, that's not a that's a positive. >> it's a contraction . why does >> it's a contraction. why does it have this extraordinarily nasty, um , atmosphere connected ? nasty, um, atmosphere connected? >> that's a really good question. so worth sort of

analysing at school when i would hear this word , people would hear this word, people would say, that's no worse than you saying erg for an english person or brit, why is it worse ? the or brit, why is it worse? the reason it is fundamentally different is i knew that my dad, hard working, different is i knew that my dad, hard working , really hard working, really charismatic, brilliant human being, was working in the civil service and he worked hard. he wanted to provide for his family. he wanted to give us as his children opportunities , his children opportunities, passionate about it. but he couldn't get promoted. he would never get invited to social events at the water cooler. people or the corridor they were talking. he would come and they would dissipate. and it was incredible. so my mind , i'm incredible. so in my mind, i'm thinking i live in a society where empirically, at the moment, much less now. and i'll come back to that one's colour influences one's life chances in an arbitrary way. so someone drawing attention to my skin colour with the with the word, the p word, can you see that comes straight id with a whole

range of other things that are of deeply pernicious to me and to my family and to my father's progress and to my progress. so saying to someone, you're a brit, you're drawing attention to someone who has it's brilliant to be a brit in britain, but using the p word has totally different connotations. why the n word was so stigmatised in america. >> i think i've been insulated all my life from this kind of thing. my dad was in india in the early 20 and he seemed he had a condo ascending attitude to the indians and but he liked them and told affectionate stories about them and about how the english behaved in those days, which was not vicious or horrible so much not not in his experience, but was more like the rugby teams on saturday night when they've had too much been night when they've had too much beer. that's that sort of thing. and so i grew up with him. i

remember him sometimes inviting people of colour to his house just to have tea. and my mother was a bit surprised she didn't mind the only people that that we hated were the welsh , which we hated were the welsh, which is hilarious. just over the border. yeah, well, just we could just look across the water. the bristol channel, and there they were . so it was very there they were. so it was very to me. and then i went on to clifton college where we had a jewish house and a lot of my friends were jewish. i used to organise teams from north town to play soccer with a tennis ball over because they had a great court and i never really saw anything very nasty . great court and i never really saw anything very nasty. i, i saw anything very nasty. i, i saw anything very nasty. i, i saw a superiority not to the jewish house because they were cleverer than us, but you know, i saw i never saw anything horrible. and then when i hear you talking, it's so aimless .

you talking, it's so aimless. it's so stupid. >> but, you know, john, i would say and this is based on deep personal experience , this we've personal experience, this we've got so much better in this country. yes, we have. i think we are one of the most possibly the most progressive, racially tolerant countries in the world. and i've never, ever conscious of my i have to be very careful of my i have to be very careful of saying that because we're not supposed to admit anything's getting better. >> but this is a tragedy to me. >> but this is a tragedy to me. >> yeah, i think the story of racism in this country is a good news over course of my news story over the course of my lifetime, relative to other nations. doing nations. we're doing tremendously is absurd tremendously well. it is absurd to compare ourselves to the united states . for example, united states. for example, it still deep seated cultural still has deep seated cultural problems, and we're making great progress. are we? but to say that we've made progress, people say think it's say that means you think it's perfect. don't think it's perfect. i don't think it's perfect. i don't think it's perfect. nothing perfect . perfect. nothing is perfect. >> nothing's going to be >> nothing's ever going to be perfect. >> but look at how well certain ethnic are in this country. >> things a bit better here and there. >> absolutely. i'll tell you

what, john. i feel tremendous what, john. i feel a tremendous sense of gratitude when my father, know, even in the in father, you know, even in the in the 60s, know, harold wilson the 60s, you know, harold wilson introduced relations introduced the race relations act . actually, that in the act. actually, that was in the that was in the 70s. but there was progressive legislation that's why i stood for parliament. i stood for labour. i thought this was a really wonderful thing to do, stand in 2001, years ago , thousands, 2001, years ago, thousands, millions of white people have wanted to the right thing and wanted to do the right thing and have marched and have campaigned. think we've campaigned. and i think we've got now where if got to a place now where if anybody said, as they used to say to me, you know, with brown skin, that you're in slightly inferior, a genetic inferior, you have a genetic congenital defect relative to what? no one says that now , i'm what? no one says that now, i'm very proud that you're able to think that that we've made these strides england, britain , i'm sorry. >> undoubtedly , we have >> undoubtedly, we have undoubtedly . that's good. that's undoubtedly. that's good. that's good.i undoubtedly. that's good. that's good. i mean, i only want things to get a bit better because we're never going to be perfect .

we're never going to be perfect. i feel i should apologise for inflicting these nonentities on you. and i'd just like to promise that i won't do it again . now, for something much better . music .

to next time on the dinosaur hour. i like a ruthlessness in my ruthlessness. >> gets me into a lot of trouble and i was gazing out of the window and the teacher said, what are you doing? >> claxton? and i said, i'm thinking, sir. he said, well, stop it . stop it. >> there are two parts of your brain. >> the and the tortoise.

>> the hare and the tortoise. your is racing ahead with your hair is racing ahead with ideas. sometimes a ideas. and sometimes comes to a blockage, the tortoise blockage, whereas the tortoise tends be plodding along all tends to be plodding along all along. you can dip into along. and you can dip into that. knowing, that. and that really knowing, john, married one of my john, you married one of my ex—wives, i think i have indeed. >> you married connie booth for about 35 years now. >> we've been . >> we've been. >> we've been. >> come on. do you know what people people are not going to like if you me. like you if you attack me. >> they it when i attack. >> they love it when i attack. you know , they don't you. you know, they don't stand you. they shut up. what you get for breakfast is something that if we jobs right, you will we do our jobs right, you will wake to news that you didn't wake up to news that you didn't know the night before. >> conversation . it's not >> it's a conversation. it's not just and eamonn. want to just me and eamonn. we want to get know you and want you get to know you and we want you to get to know us from 6:00. >> it's breakfast with eamonn and monday to thursdays and isabel monday to thursdays on gb news, britain's news channel

>> it's 7:00. very good evening to you. i'm alan armstrong in the gb newsroom and the international red cross says 17 hostages are now in israel after being released by hamas in gaza . being released by hamas in gaza. israel's prison service has confirmed the release of 39 palestine prisoners . in palestine prisoners. in exchange, it is the third of a four day pause in fighting in total, the two sides have agreed total, the two sides have agreed to swap 50 israeli hostages for 150. jailed. palestinian says a four year old israeli american girl was among those released earlier . us girl was among those released earlier. us president biden has welcomed the news and says he hopes the truce will be extended i >> -- >> so i'm hopeful this is not the end. it's going to continue , the end. it's going to continue, but we don't know and but i get a sense that . all the players in a sense that. all the players in the region, even the neighbours who aren't, have been directly involved. now we're looking for a way to end this.

involved. now we're looking for a way to end this . so the