tv John Cleese GB News December 3, 2023 6:00pm-7:01pm GMT
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huh. >> i'll sign it later. thank you. i got into cambridge without having any idea that i was a slightest bit creative . was a slightest bit creative. creativity which just means knowing how to come up with a better idea, was never mentioned at my school. but then i joined the cambridge footlights and i found that i could write something on a blank sheet of paper which would make people laugh. and then i discovered something else. if i wrote a sketch in the evening. but got stuck and went to bed . when stuck and went to bed. when i got up in the morning and sat down at my desk, i saw the solution almost straight away and this happened so often. i slowly realised that my brain must have been working on the problem while i was asleep and that's when i decided to try to understand what creativity is
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all about and today i'm going to talk to some people who might be able to help me. i'm going to start with a great lyricist . start with a great lyricist. yes, you , tim rice , ladies and yes, you, tim rice, ladies and gentlemen. and tim, why or when did you first start? said since you could be creative ? you could be creative? >> well, i think i was more inclined to be creative from a young age, but i had no concept of being creative. i thought i was just writing. i just thought that was the way for my mum. >> it was, yeah. >> it was, yeah. >> it was, yeah. >> i remember writing for her 28th birthday almost a whole book of poems and drawings . i book of poems and drawings. i mean, they were terrible, but i always wanted to write things, but i had no no concept whatsoever of this could be something that would be a career . i just it was fun or even unusual. >> i you're right. >> i you're right. >> i you're right. >> i didn't think it was unusual. my brothers did much
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the same thing a few years later . and i think my parents were both writers to a certain extent. my mother very much so. so i suppose. >> so you were used to this atmosphere here? >> yes, but we weren't running around thinking what a creative, artistic family, because it was so natural for your family. >> yeah, we were kind enough to have a look at that little book i creativity. was i wrote about creativity. was there anything it that you there anything in it that you disagreed with? >> i don't. i don't mind. >> no, i don't. i don't mind. >> no, i don't. i don't mind. >> it'd be more interesting if you did. yeah, but you see, i find that i have to get into what i call a creative mood before it starts to come. i can't just sit down and start writing . writing. >> no, i've totally sympathised with your getting a space and taking time to get into your space and. and no distractions . space and. and no distractions. and my problems often been that itend and my problems often been that i tend to look for distractions . i tend to look for distractions. you think i've got to write something and you suddenly think. on the other hand and my cds need to be put in
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alphabetical order and i'll do that. now because it'll only take five minutes and that takes all you sort your socks. >> yes. you you sharpen pencils and pencils and all these things. anything to avoid the if you can get going. >> but there were so many things you said which rang true, like you said which rang true, like you get stuck and you go out and take the for a walk. yeah, take the dog for a walk. yeah, for hour. and when you for half an hour. and when you come back, your brain has recharged . recharged. >> but a lot of stuff is just given to you , isn't it? do you given to you, isn't it? do you know what i mean ? some of it. know what i mean? some of it. you get to yourself by logic, but a lot of the times the best ideas pop up while you're taking the dog for a walk. >> exactly . and you you >> exactly. and you you mentioned that there are two parts of your brain, the hare and the tortoise. yes. yes. and your hare is racing ahead with ideas. your hare is racing ahead with ideas . and sometimes it comes to ideas. and sometimes it comes to a blockage . yeah. whereas the a blockage. yeah. whereas the tortoise tends to be plodding along along. you can dip along all along. and you can dip into without really without into that without really without really knowing your dip. >> a lot of thinking is just. it's just sort of logic. and you can do that. you don't have to
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be clever or creative. it would be clever or creative. it would be a waste of time . hmm. so when be a waste of time. hmm. so when you do when you when you sort of sit down to write, you do it eventually after you've done the socks and sharpened the pencils, you sit down. then your mind is full of all these things. oh, i should have called. so and so and i haven't the qatar and i haven't bought the qatar birthday present. you know, that sort of stuff. you've to get birthday present. you know, that soroff stuff. you've to get birthday present. you know, that sorof alluff. you've to get birthday present. you know, that sorof all that.>u've to get birthday present. you know, that sorof all that. then to get birthday present. you know, that sorof all that. then you:o get birthday present. you know, that sorof all that. then you settle rid of all that. then you settle down. yes at that point, down. yes and at that point, something starts to do something starts to happen. do you that describe your. you is that describe your. >> yes. it obviously >> yes. yes. it obviously depends to a extent on depends to a certain extent on what task is. but one of what your task is. but one of the rules i've always tried to follow is always write something you would like if somebody else had written it . and so you've had written it. and so you've got a fighting chance when you finished it, of actually quite liking it yourself. you may get fed up with it after a while, but that's very interesting. >> that seems very difficult. >> that seems very difficult. >> well, i mean, somebody else might have written it. >> no, somebody else would write if somebody else had written. >> i mean, i sort of think if i
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want to write something that i would like if, you know, somebody else had had had had doneit somebody else had had had had done it and i think i always have that in the back of my mind, which really means i've got to like it myself. you mustn't try and write something you think, is this year's trend? >> no, no, no . the moment you >> no, no, no. the moment you write for an audience , something write for an audience, something goes. it might work for financially, but it's never going to be good art. >> and i've always said there are no hard and fast are really no hard and fast rules because we wrote rules because when we wrote superstar, we couldn't get any anybody to stage it . any anybody to stage it. any theatrical producer . the anybody to stage it. any theatrical producer. the camera mackintosh's of the day , they mackintosh's of the day, they said, well , mackintosh's of the day, they said, well, you mackintosh's of the day, they said, well , you know, the two said, well, you know, the two guys are unknown. and but above all, they said religion , forget all, they said religion, forget it. it would never work . and it. it would never work. and we'd sort of said rather feebly, well, it's not really a religious piece. it's about it's a story and it's being told in a new way . and because nobody new way. and because nobody wanted to stage it, we were forced our manager managed to
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get a deal to do it on record. and that was great because firstly we ditched any idea of having dialogue, which we'd thought about, and we turned it into an opera in the sense that it was non stop music with no no speech. it was non stop music with no no speech . and also we were able to speech. and also we were able to use much bigger forces. andrew could have a rock band and a big orchestra and a choir which had we staged it even in the west end, you wouldn't have had that in those days. the technology wasn't there and we probably would have opened in a very nice provincial theatre with a nine piece band. yes with no, no rock section . section. >> and it's fascinating to hear this. >> and the superstar would have, which originally was just called jesus christ, which perhaps was was not the ideal title, but it would have probably died. the death in some very nice provincial theatre . but doing it provincial theatre. but doing it on record changed the whole piece and the record took off like a bullet. not here, but in
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america . america. >> so you were saying that i thought you might amuse to know that when we were luxuriating in the success of the holy grail, we had a meeting and we said, what are we going to do next? and eric idle said, i think we should make a film called jesus christ , not lust for should make a film called jesus christ, not lust for glory . christ, not lust for glory. >> yeah , that was our >> yeah, that was our contribution to the religious atmosphere at the time. >> tim i want to introduce a great friend of mine, john duprey. john has written an immense come on in, john. he's written an immense amount of music for monty python. he wrote the music for spamalot and he wrote the music for what an honour to meet you, sir. >> an honour to meet you, john. >> an honour to meet you, john. >> it is true. and i think he's a bit of a genius because he can sit down at a piano and within about four seconds come up with about four seconds come up with a tune that's just blind panic. no, no, but it's an extra ordinary. i've never thought of a tune in my life. i don't know
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how you think of a tune because the moment i think of a tune, i think, oh, no, it's that tune. you were saying that you were a little bit surprised sized that tim sometimes does lyrics from the song. normally it's the other way. absolutely. >> seems to me that the >> it seems to me that the really very hard thing to do really a very hard thing to do that normally the words and the idea you know sort of like the way elton works you've said, you know, the lyric comes first and then you form the tune for the. well, that's the way elton works i >> -- >> yeah. when i first worked with him , i assumed, like all with him, i assumed, like all composers, he had a lot of great tunes lying around in his locker. and i said, you got any great tunes for this lion king lark ? and he said, no. and lark? and he said, no. and i said, have you got any reason able tunes ? because even able tunes? because even a reasonable tune by elton would be better than most people's tunes. he said, no, no, i never write a tune until i get the lyrics. and i didn't know that about him. i knew that bernie wrote lyrics by and large first.
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yes but i didn't know that that elton only ever did that . elton only ever did that. >> i'm fascinated. i mean , i'm >> i'm fascinated. i mean, i'm listening to the radio and something like the brandenburg concerto or honky tonk women or memories or or something. it's the way that what becomes a hit or the difference between that and an ordinary song, i find absolutely fascinating. and i, l, absolutely fascinating. and i, i, i wonder if it's an external thing , whether, whether i've thing, whether, whether i've heard that music sort of out there and you have to channel it. and there are musical archetypes out there . i'm archetypes out there. i'm interested in that. >> i'm sorry, john, i just have >> i'm sorry, john, ijust have to stop you there because i'm getting a lot of signs saying this has become very, very boring. thank you very much boring. so thank you very much for along to thank you for coming along to thank you and you for so and thank you for being so boring. john i, i've read some of your stuff and i mentioned
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this to you the other day. i i like your ruthlessness . like your ruthlessness. >> it get my ruthlessness gets me into a lot of trouble. yeah, i know. >> but it's worth it, isn't it? yeah. i'm not sure you can get anything done unless you're a bit ruthless as well. >> i think in this era it requires a certain amount of nerve to put anything to paper. really? yeah. because it is so easy to get yourself into trouble all using a single word in a way that people take the wrong way. >> or yes, particularly literal minded people take something the wrong way because they don't understand and the importance of context and affecting the meaning . meaning. >> well, also we're surrounded by killjoys. yeah. so you know, nothing gets you into more trouble. and you should know this than a joke. yes absolutely. and i simply cannot write a completely straight faced column or book. and it's what i write that it's really
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just to amuse myself . if that just to amuse myself. if that gets me into such hot water. >> when i was reading we must talk about kevin. i had to stop after a time because i was feeling hopeless. >> hopeless? yeah >> hopeless? yeah >> seriously? because i think i've always had a fear of hopelessness . i always need to hopelessness. i always need to be able to do something to make things better. and when that's not possible, i think i kind of panicked and it set a little bit of that off. so i'm reading it in slices . in slices. >> i write about a lot of dark subjects, but the execution is not dark. no there are writers who do want to make their audience suffer . yeah. and i'm audience suffer. yeah. and i'm not one of them. i don't think of literature as medicinal . of literature as medicinal. >> ha ha . >> ha ha. >> ha ha. >> when you settle down to write in the morning, can you just settle down and start writing or do you have a little routine? i mean, like i sort of sharpen pencils and tidy things. do you
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have anything just to get into a mood? >> no, no . >> no, no. >> no, no. >> in general, i have resisted fitual >> in general, i have resisted ritual as i think they are just delay mechanisms . and i also delay mechanisms. and i also think that it's a mistake to imagine that you have to go through some kind of mystical sequence. i don't believe in mystification . it's a job. and mystification. it's a job. and so i don't i don't depend on being in a mood or feeling like it. that's a formula for never getting it done . eventually you getting it done. eventually you know, i if i sit there . yeah. know, i if i sit there. yeah. and i don't have anything else to do, then i will generate text. >> well, i could never figure out why i always put off the moment of writing and i thought i was wasting time. and then i slowly came to the conclusion that it was actually getting me into a more of a writer mood because a psychologist once said
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to me, if you're sad, you have sad thoughts. if you're angry, you have angry thoughts, all that. he said, if you want to create, you want to have a creative feeling about you, which i get by. relax ing and very much by stopping interruptions and i thought it was a waste of time. but i now think it's a way of moving from an ordinary every day. let's deal with the world mood to something that's more creative . something that's more creative. >> i've had to develop a less protective way of going about things. first off, i'm i'm interrupted all the time by people who want me to do something and of course, like this. but and thanks for doing it. you have interrupted me and we'll make the best of it. but but furthermore , i live with a but furthermore, i live with a drummer. i'm married to a drummer. i'm married to a drummer. a drummer who has sessions in our house and also practice his and i have learned to completely tune him out. i can tune out whole bands playing
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down stairs . all i have to do is down stairs. all i have to do is pay down stairs. all i have to do is pay attention to what i'm doing. >> you went and lived in belfast . with was, it seems a very strange thing for a writer to do to me. >> were you getting well, actually , i have to say that at actually, i have to say that at the time it was a trite thing for a writer to do, especially a novelist . at this business of novelist. at this business of setting a novel in northern ireland, when you're from elsewhere . there was a cliche by elsewhere. there was a cliche by the time i got there in 1987, there had been many, many novelists who had come through and wanted to set something in the troubles . it was a little the troubles. it was a little depressing. when i first got there, i thought everyone was that i learned quickly to be embarrassed by my presence in the town . so i mostly redeemed the town. so i mostly redeemed myself by sticking around. that is what made me not a cliche , is what made me not a cliche, was having lived there for 12
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years, 12 and most novelists came in for six months. yeah, got a feel for the setting and checked out again. >> was it something about the atmosphere around there that made it. oh hey , i'm talking to made it. oh hey, i'm talking to you. >> you're not the star. >> you're not the star. >> here, sit down. the star. >> here, sit down. the star. >> was there something about the atmosphere that actually fed your creativity ? your creativity? >> it had a nice combination of a place that was in a lot of ways off the beaten track, out of the way ? yeah. i lived in the of the way? yeah. i lived in the attic of an old victorian house with grounds . it was really with grounds. it was really cheap. with grounds. it was really cheap . so it it suited my cheap. so it it suited my economics. it was very peaceful . economics. it was very peaceful. all i but at the same time it was somewhere where something was somewhere where something was happening. yeah, that that
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it had a sense of eventfulness about it. and you never knew when something was going to blow up. yeah. >> and i was going to wonder whether you were sort of there was gunfire . was gunfire. >> well, it was it was a time when, you know, the army was still on the streets. it was a fascinating place to be. >> and oh, what a shame. >> and oh, what a shame. >> no , thank you . >> no, thank you. >> no, thank you. >> you're a wonderfully determined you know, cats and i don't get on you don't get on. >> yeah , they poop in my garden >> yeah, they poop in my garden all the time. >> i think they're the meaning of life myself. but. >> but what i what i really got out of belfast was first i got my cut. i cut my journalistic teeth there. i started writing for the wall street journal europe comment pieces about political shenanigans. there and i got a the equivalent of a
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phd's worth of political education. it made me far more cynical. yes and it made me more conservative. >> yes , i found that especially >> yes, i found that especially early, ostensibly liberal american support for the ira atrocious and that that severed . atrocious and that that severed. my my atrocious and that that severed. my my allegiance to liberal democrats in the united states . democrats in the united states. >> and it released me. and that's how i was raised. my parents were liberal democrats, and it released me into a much more independent minded politics. i started thinking for myself for the first time in my life, that's what i noticed about your writing. >> and on that point, thank you. that was for me , quite wonderful. >> how you enjoyed talking to you. it's fun and i'm one of those extremely boring people who can't help but tell you how
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>> the dinosaur are with me. john cleese on . gb news hello john cleese on. gb news hello. >> hello. >> hello. >> so i'm now going to talk to a man for whom i have enormous respect. he is not a critic. he's a reviewer. he's been described as the man who knew more about broadway than anyone else who's written definitive biographies of arthur miller and tennessee williams and his reviews and writings about show business are . the get out. what business are. the get out. what are you doing here? rouse. rouse
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it's not you, cat . john la john. it's not you, cat. john la john. >> good to see. >> how are you? i'm well. nice to see you. john and i have a rather interesting connection because is john you married ? one because is john you married? one of my ex—wife's. i think i have indeed. you've married connie booth for about 35 years now. >> we've been. >> we've been. >> oh, come on. it's not that back that far, is it? really >> yeah. >> yeah. >> how wonderful . and i want to >> how wonderful. and i want to tell you something. i think you know this. i've told you before, your dad was a great star. tell us a little bit about him. well, my father was english. >> people would know him as the cowardly lion in the wizard of oz. yeah but he had a phenomenal run as a performer and was very, very in his day. he was one of the great low comedians of the first half of the 20th century. when he died in 1967. his his
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his face was on the cover on the on the front page of the it was front page news of the times. and when i went to write this pertains to writing about theatre when i wrote his book, i realised that nothing that was written about him bore any real relation to who he was and so part of what got me on the road to writing about theatre was trying to leave a better narrative about about theatre and theatricals to carry that that knowledge further and expand it. i make a distinction between reviewing and criticism, reviewing is, as it now is , is reviewing is, as it now is, is a consumer function . the articles consumer function. the articles such as they are, are really just to tell the reader whether they should go and see it. well that's part of what critic ism
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is, but really what criticism is, but really what criticism is, is to put a play is meant to stimulate thought and from my point of view, criticism really extends that into the world. it thinks about the play and puts it in a conscious text of the culture, psychology, all sorts of things . yeah. whereas a of things. yeah. whereas a review is the context of no context. oh, i see what you you see what i'm saying? if you like when you write, if i read about what people write about your pieces is they always talk about the depth that they have much more depth than most. >> what portrays. >> what portrays. >> that's part of the for 20 years i was the drama critic of the new yorker, and that's the sort of gift of having space and time. most reviews , those are time. most reviews, those are written in a very short space. you can't really think in the way i'm talking in 800 words, can't do it . can't do it. >> you do really long thought
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pieces about some of the stuff. >> you can get something going and you can have an idea or express an idea in in an thank you in a very nice good in 1500 words. but it's basically a point of view . i mean, i think point of view. i mean, i think a critic and i'm not talking just about myself, but eric bentley , about myself, but eric bentley, kenneth tynan , they are really kenneth tynan, they are really in the illumination business. yes. yes you're there to stay late. thought and you're there to have an argument, perhaps. but it's not to dismiss as the most important thing about a critic is that he loves the medium that he's criticising that and that he knows something about it. >> so i forgot that bit. yes >> so i forgot that bit. yes >> you know, i think it's christopher hampton said to ask a working writer what he thinks
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of critics is like asking a lamppost what he thinks of dogs. and of course , the thing i and of course, the thing i object to in that joke is working writer because i think there's just good writing and bad writing and elegance or eloquence comes in in any genre , eloquence comes in in any genre, any genre. and my objection to a lot of the, the reviewing is , is lot of the, the reviewing is, is that the people who are passing judgement are book learned, but they haven't ever written anything . they haven't made anything. they haven't made anything. they haven't made anything , they've never written anything, they've never written anything, they've never written a joke book or a play or had an acting lesson. they have no idea of , of, of, they , they can see of, of, of, they, they can see something. they can know what's good, but they don't know why it's good. that's exactly the point. >> i'm so glad you made that. and but you see, that's part of
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the differentiation between most of the really in important critics on either side of the atlantic have all slept on both sides of the bed. >> they've made theatre and they've written about it. they know what the process is. finally going back to creativity i >> -- >> see how much creative liberty do you think there is in reviewing or critiquing as you write in your book on creativity , critical creativity is play. >> and my job is to sit in front of the play and let it happen on me . yeah, play with it. and when me. yeah, play with it. and when i sit in front of a in a typewriter, whether i'm playing , typewriter, whether i'm playing, i'm discovering it again. i'm reading , i'm discovering it again. i'm reading, imagining it, and i'm playing with the idea is and seeing how they resonate with me and in the culture. so in that sense, you're starting with a blank page and you're building up a story which which describes what you've you've seen, but also pushes it out and paints a
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larger picture. so in that sense , you're creating a, a narrative which has hopefully at its best, the possibility of entertaining and showing people something that they didn't know before. and that's what is creative . and that's what is creative. >> and i now see just listening to you now why all the people writing about your writing talk about its depth . well, thank about its depth. well, thank you, john. >> pleasure. >> pleasure. >> really, my love to call me tonight. i.
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glad you could do this. >> thank you for having me. john oh, we love each other. >> i used to have so many of your paintings and i had to sell them when i lost all my money. >> so you told me. yes. >> terrible. >> terrible. >> um, what i'm interested in is you. you do representational art, which is the art that i enjoy. but i'm interested in what you add. i mean, you look at a landscape or a piece of a street or something like that , street or something like that, and then you start to paint it, but you're not copying it. you're doing something else to make it into a great painting . make it into a great painting. what do you do you think about that? or is it just happen automatically? no there's always automatically? no there's always a little thought process that happens before the beginning of a painting, and sometimes it's a extremely short little process where you see something and you just think that's that's
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exciting. >> lovely . it's very often in my >> lovely. it's very often in my case, it's very often to do with a light . i case, it's very often to do with a light. i paint a lot of things that are so light sunlight, shadow , night—time scenes , but shadow, night—time scenes, but with a little bit of subtle moonlight window light, something like this. it's very often the trigger is the light . often the trigger is the light. and i'll see it and i'll log it in my head and think that i could possibly make a painting from apart from your technique, what else are you adding in a sense of creating ? sense of creating? >> that's an impossible question to answer. >> probably. >> probably. >> yeah, but try anyway. >> yeah, but try anyway. >> it's your what you. it's this thing about the initial spark you have to try and transmit that onto a two dimensional surface . that so that it's surface. that so that it's communicated to someone else because that's what you're doing. you're trying to show someone else how delighted you've been by something or how horrified or how.
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>> let's talk about some of your paintings, because this is one this is very typical of your work, i think. could you put it up so we can't see your face? thank you. just a little higher. >> thank you. thank you. >> thank you. thank you. >> now tell me so here, for instance, when i see something like this with a shadow and a little bit of translucent essence, i would go , oh, that's yummy. >> i can paint that. and also, you know , sunlight shining you know, sunlight shining through . this is actually through. this is actually a white bougainvillaea . and white bougainvillaea. and shadows on the ground. it gives a sense of warmth, of well—being and delight. >> this one took my breath away when i looked at that one. thank you, jonathan. right up, please . you, jonathan. right up, please. right up. no more. that's it. now, when i saw that , i had a now, when i saw that, i had a shiver down. my god. but what media is that? that is an etching. >> what i did, i was in india
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and i had a sketchbook which i filled with sketches on beaches. this particular beach was just the most exciting place. it's just outside. it's at a place called juhu, just outside bombay, mumbai . it's inked with bombay, mumbai. it's inked with blue at the top, darker in the middle. and i print these at home on my etching press. >> what have we got here? oh, thank you, jonathan. good i think. oh he is completely helpless . could you hold that helpless. could you hold that one right up so we can't see any of anything of you at all? tell me about this one. this is a drawing that i did in the studio or it's a pastel . or it's a pastel. >> it's done in pastel. people talk about pastel paintings. so it's a painting . but in pastel. it's a painting. but in pastel. and it's done from a from a series of photographs that i took in in the living room of a of a very good friend of ours in
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in tbilisi in georgia. oh in georgia. and i couldn't sit down and paint while i was in her flat. so i took some pictures. and then when i got home, i collaged them together. and my eye goes to her all the time. >> the colour there is very, very warm colour. is that what was it? >> the whole atmosphere. i'm trying to get the atmosphere of the flat, the clutter, the trans nuisance of the curtains, the glow ing of the standard lamp and so on. >> and that seems to be the lot. oh, no, we've got another one coming up which used to belong to a comedian called comedian john cleese, who very kindly bought this one because we need two people here. thank you, jonathan. tell tell me about this one. lift it up. so that it's horizontal down a bit. your your do you know what people people are not going to like you if you attack me. >> they love it when i attack you. no, they don't tan you shut
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up . up. >> right, lucy , this was the >> right, lucy, this was the local prison in somerset where i was given somerset, my dear. >> we're in somerset, and i was given the job of teaching an evening class , really? to the evening class, really? to the inmates. they came along, but they. they weren't that interested until i went one week and said, how about if we get one of you guys to sit here and i'll draw a portrait of you? oh i'll draw a portrait of you? oh i accumulated a portfolio of sketches which which i then took back home and i thought, i wonder if i could i'd sort of manipulate these individual sketches into to a give the effect of my class . oh. but it, effect of my class. oh. but it, it captured the absolute boredom of being in prison, although my class was in fact quite an entertaining sort of jolly atmosphere , for in reality , you atmosphere, for in reality, you know, i wasn't i was talking to somebody yesterday. >> it was telling me how
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enormously helpful it is for people in prison to get involved in artist stick pursuits, that it changes everything, which i don't understand why it does, but it seems as if it does very often . often. >> if you can learn a skill of any sort, it changes your outlook . but you know, if outlook. but you know, if perhaps if you can't read and write, but you can learn to draw or or paint or and there's unfortunately , there's just the unfortunately, there's just the funding has been cut massively from that sort of thing because the tories don't understand about anything like that . about anything like that. >> lucy that was just lovely and thank you so much for coming to talk to me. well thank you . talk to me. well thank you. i still feel that there's things that we've left out so far, so i've invited an old friend here, guy clark , to come and talk to guy clark, to come and talk to me. so we talk about some of them now, guy here is kind of my
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mentor because . because in 1992, mentor because. because in 1992, when 1997, i wrote the book and he wrote a book called hairbrain brain tortoise mind. he wrote a book called hairbrain brain tortoise mind . and almost brain tortoise mind. and almost all the thinking i've done about creativity since is based on that one book because you were suggesting that there's different at speeds of thinking and that they are suitable for different tasks. >> yes, in order to solve problems, you need to use the right tools for the job. yes, as in any kind of if you're a carpenter or a plumber, you have to use the right tools for the job. and our thinking tools vary in all kinds of ways. but when i was thinking when i was writing that book, i was thinking that they in speed . so they vary in their speed. so there's some of our tools are really fast. you know, if you're, you're having to respond very quickly , be very creative very quickly, be very creative in the moment like a tennis player or a cricket player, you
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don't have time to think you split second absolutely faster than thought. then then there are the kind of logical you know, the court of law, the learned lecture kinds of things which operate at the speed of thought, like edited by the way we're speaking now. you can't speed me up too much or or i stop making sense. yeah. and then there are other kinds of thinking that are slower than thought. you know, you can't slow thought down too, too much, or it stops making sense. other registers and it's very important to get the right register for the right job different kinds of problems need different kinds of problems need different speeds. and i think what i was thinking when i wrote the book was our culture in a way has sort of forgotten about the two outer sets of speeds, the two outer sets of speeds, the slow gear and the fast gear, if you like. and we want we try and do everything at the speed of thought. we try and put everything into that and we assume that speed of thought is
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assume that speed of thought is a good thing. we assume that it's a good thing and we assume that it's a ubiquitously good thing. good. it's good thing. but it's good. it's good for everything. it's like snake oil for mind, if you like , oil for the mind, if you like, right? you know, whereas if you're using the slow gear mode, what you call tortoise mind, you can deal with problems that you simply can't begin to solve. >> if you're in a faster way of thinking. yeah that's right. >> if you're in a court of law, thought the speed of thought works very well , it usually works very well, it usually comes out with a right answer. but if you're writing poetry or devising a new scientific theory , a lot of that work, it turns out, is done not at the conscious, deliberate rate, articulate level. einstein put it very well. he said the words of the language only come into my creative process at a very late stage. the actual creativity itself is done
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through thinking slowly and through thinking slowly and through what einstein called more or less clear images. through what einstein called more or less clear images . yes. more or less clear images. yes. so he's speaking. he's working in a different language . you in a different language. you could call it a language, but it's a visual language. and he said it's also a physical language , a language of physical language, a language of physical promptings is important. and only right at the last minute when he has to explain his thinking to other people. does it then have to get squeezed into the box of words, if you like? yes that's that's so interesting because the assumption is you've got to think fast. >> no one during my entire education, which was a good engush education, which was a good english education in a prep school, public school, nobody ever said to me, it's okay, lay on some subjects just to think about them. and then let your unconscious do the work. >> did a teacher ever ask you a question and you said, you know,
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it's a good question, sir. let me get back to you on that right . right. | me get back to you on that right . right. i remember. i must have been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson . i been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson. i can been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson . i can remember it in a lesson. i can remember it very clearly. and i was gazing out of the window and the teacher said, what are you doing? claxton? and i said, i'm thinking, sir. he said, well, stop . stop it. >> yes, i was thought he assumed that i was wasting my time. of course. i mean, you had to be einstein to be able to sit there with your feet on your on your desk, on your desk at princeton university, and people think, oh, einstein's working well. there is most of us do that. you know, we're slacking. >> absolutely dream time. i mean, if you ask people when they get their best idea was it's not when they're right up against the deadline , when against the deadline, when they're in a court of law or something like that, it's i mean, when do you get your best ideas? often when you're falling asleep, when you're walking the dog, when you're in the shower ,
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dog, when you're in the shower, in the shower, when you're not that you've been chewing over , that you've been chewing over, you've got to chew. >> chew it over first, right? yeah. and then you can leave it pretty for your unconscious yeah. and then you can leave it pr> in my little book, which i know you've read. yeah. what i say is you've got to get away from ordinary life . because i from ordinary life. because i looked at some research which had done on architects . and what had done on architects. and what what they discovered was the only difference between the creative ones and the uncreative onesis
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creative ones and the uncreative ones is that the creative ones could play. yes yes, yes. then i read a book by a dutch guy called homo ludens playing man . called homo ludens playing man. yes, yes. and he said, if you're going to play, you have to separate play from ordinary life. yes yes. >> you have to create. i think you are having read my book, you caused the coined the phrase tortoise enclosures. that's right. we have to protect space and time . and time. >> yeah, that's right. >> yeah, that's right. >> for the for the tortoise. otherwise the wretched hare just is bounding around all over the place. >> and the trouble is keeping the hare out. because any kind of interruption disturb holibobs the peace that you need just to sit and play. yeah sit there and play. yeah >> and it's very easy. i mean , >> and it's very easy. i mean, creativity is a delicate flower . creativity is a delicate flower. why are we so luddite in education? why do we resist having a slightly more sophisticated view of the mind, which embraces the need to do not only just invite, but to
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cultivate playful ness of mind the tolerance for making mistakes ? yeah. the example i mistakes? yeah. the example i was thinking of was a friend of mine, a wonderful primary school teacher who has very subtle, subtle, clever ways of detoxifying the idea of making mistakes . detoxifying the idea of making mistakes. four year olds arrive in school already , some of them in school already, some of them frightened of making mistakes. yes, they've learned to be good little boys and good little girls. yeah. and they have to get everything right first time or they feel stupid. >> it's crippling. >> it's crippling. >> so , becky, my friend becky >> so, becky, my friend becky talks to the kids about there's different she says there's different she says there's different kinds of mistakes . you different kinds of mistakes. you know, there are smart mistakes and then there are sloppy mistakes. a smart mistake was an idea you had based on the best information that you had at the time. and it just didn't turn out. but you learnt a lot from it. sloppy mistake is you didn't bother. yeah. now for children, that's a very liberating . the that's a very liberating. the idea that there is such it's
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almost like an oxymoron. the idea of a smart mistake. yeah. so then she's moved one stage further on. she has a big display in her classroom . display in her classroom. mistake of the week and her children queue up to have their smart mistakes acknowledged as the smartest mistake of the week. >> very smart. >> very smart. >> that's genius, isn't that? it's genius. >> but one of the curses, isn't it ? is this idea that thinking it? is this idea that thinking quickly is always better than thinking slowly. >> it's so this this idea again, it's very prevalent in business. the business world, which you, i think know better than i do. but somehow or other, the kind of people we want around here are people we want around here are people who are decisive , right? people who are decisive, right? yeah. and if you allow or encourage a culture of speediness and decisiveness , speediness and decisiveness, thatis speediness and decisiveness, that is a lot of people don't realise that that is stupid . realise that that is stupid. that's the word literally stupid. you're stifling intelligence and creativity in your organisation because everybody thinks they have to be
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a clever dick and whatever question, however complex, however novel, whatever question comes up , the smartest person in comes up, the smartest person in the room is the one who has the quickest answer. yes which is who is slick , stupid. who is slick, stupid. >> yeah. what do they call them? they call them the. the articulate, incompetent . articulate, incompetent. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes, absolutely right . >> yes, absolutely right. >> yes, absolutely right. >> yes. they suffer from premature articulation . an premature articulation. an that's a very good one. >> thank you . god bless you. if >> thank you. god bless you. if you have me. >> cheers . >> cheers. >> cheers. >> enjoy our water. it's a very best gb news water. >> very good. >> very good. >> only been used once . you you >> only been used once. you you see, when people are trying to create, they want a quiet place with no interruption . ones where with no interruption. ones where they can let their minds play and wander to wherever they want to go without any hurrying . and to go without any hurrying. and sometimes they feel confused because they've never been there
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before and they're okay with that. before and they're okay with that . executives and managers that. executives and managers are the polar opposite . they are the polar opposite. they want to control everything they demand clarity. they pride quick thinking and they like their employees to work hard and humourlessly and always in a hurry . so it's not surprising hurry. so it's not surprising that creatives and the suits don't get on. but we need them both because as the economist magazine once said about hollywood, if the creatives are in control, the place soon goes bankrupt and if the suits are in charge, then all the films are finished on time and under budget. but nobody wants to go and see them because they're so boring. so there has to be balance and that has to come from the top because they're the ones with the money and the power. >> are you finished yet? and what was that bit about execs being boring? >> that wasn't a sorry, i'll
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change that bit actually. well, what would you like me to say? what would you rather we'll sort it out in the edit. >> let's cut to the music now more energy this time . by half more energy this time. by half a b philosophically must ipso facto , half not be, but half the facto, half not be, but half the b has got to be v xvii it's entity you see. >> but can a b be said to be or not to be an entire b when half the b is not a b due to some ancient injury. the b is not a b due to some ancient injury . singing a la dee ancient injury. singing a la dee dee. one two, three and eight. >> the half of me a, b, c, d, e, f, g— >> the half of me a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h, the half of b is
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this wretched demi b off asleep upon my knee. >> some freak from a menagerie. no it's eric. the half a b filium a philly d eric hoffer b ho ho ho z. >> the half of me . >> the half of me. >> the half of me. >> i love this hive employee bisected axis mentally. one summer after afternoon by me . i summer after afternoon by me. i love him to gnarly loss in the early semicon . only the end
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early semicon. only the end. next time on the dinosaur i. >> i see these you know trans women are real women. no, you're not. okay, that's the bottom line . line. >> i was married to a therapist. >> i was married to a therapist. >> what? and you survived? ha ha. well, she calls me 20 million. >> i want to know what you really feel about woke . really feel about woke. >> i. i hate it.
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>> i'd much rather hear what you have to say , sir. send in your have to say, sir. send in your opinions to gb views gb news. com keep them clean and you never know . i might com keep them clean and you never know. i might read com keep them clean and you never know . i might read them never know. i might read them out with my panel here on dewbs& co we debate, we get stuck into the issues of the day on a show where all views are welcome, especially me, yours, gb news the people's channel. britain's news channel . news channel. >> good evening. i'm ray addison in the newsroom. free speech nafion in the newsroom. free speech nation is coming up in just a moment. but first, our headlines tonight and our top story. police have confirmed a death in freezing conditions after the body of a man was found in a car in nottingham. i'm describing the incident as tragic. they say they're investigating the circumstances, but are not treating it rather as
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