ratio has view. our tax to gdp ratio has hit its highest level. the gap between the haves and the have nots is in danger of becoming a chasm, and the disadvantaged are no better off than they were 15 years ago. and get this the uk has the highest property taxes in the developed world. so a simple question for you is this country going back .7 woods and country going back? woods and shadow health secretary wes streeting says a tough love approach is needed to save the nhs. is he right? and what would that look like? and get this right. twice as many parents want schools to prepare children for adult life rather than higher academic achievers . do higher academic achievers. do you agree with that? are we teaching the right things in schools as . yes, indeed. so schools as. yes, indeed. so we're going to have to debate on all of that to come. but first, let's cross live to polly middlehurst for tonight's latest news headlines as . michelle,

news headlines as. michelle, thank you . thank you. >> the top story this hour, the government's rwanda legislation has come under fire once again today, this time from a breakaway group of conservative mps who say it needs a complete rewrite . it. mark francois, rewrite. it. mark francois, chairman of the tory led european research group, says the rwanda bill only provides partial and incomplete solutions. a total overhaul may be the only way, he says , to be the only way, he says, to stop the boats . stop the boats. >> we all want to stop the boats , but there have been two legislative attempts at this already. the nationalities and borders act that didn't quite work. the illegal immigration, an act that didn't quite work. so this is kind of three strikes and you're out, isn't it? so what is really important it is if we're going to put a bill through parliament to have a piece of legislation, which is fit for purpose , as the bill is fit for purpose, as the bill is currently drafted and it isn't

well, the illegal migration minister , michael tomlinson responded. >> he said he's confident that the plan does comply with the law and will work. >> look, this is the toughest piece of legislation that's ever been tabled before parliament. this is what we're determined to debate tomorrow. this is what we will debate tomorrow. we'll debate tomorrow. this is what we will dto ate tomorrow. we'll debate tomorrow. this is what we will dto amendments we'll debate tomorrow. this is what we will dto amendments in we'll debate tomorrow. this is what we will dto amendments in due a'll come to amendments in due course. but i'm convinced because seen and i'm because we've seen it and i'm convinced because of the government's legal position that convinced because of the goverrpublishedgal position that convinced because of the goverrpublishedgal pafternoon,t we've published this afternoon, that piece that this is the toughest piece of legislation , that this does of legislation, that this does meet concerns of the supreme meet the concerns of the supreme court. and we're going to have that debate tomorrow afternoon. >> in other news today, the prime minister has been defending controversial eat defending his controversial eat out to help out scheme, saying it was merely part of a micro policy within a bigger plan to reopen the uk . rishi sunak told reopen the uk. rishi sunak told the covid inquiry it had been designed specifically to safely lift lockdown, restrict at the time he began his evidence with an apology to those who'd lost their loved ones . but he played their loved ones. but he played down suggestions by lead counsel

hugo keith kc that severe inefficiencies in downing street had led to a chaotic style of governance. were you aware that his closest advisers had seemingly unanimously taken the view that there was a lack of efficiency ? efficiency? >> the administration is described privately as brutal and useless or criminally incompetent or operationally chaotic . chaotic. >> the fact that there was debate and that people were passionate about it and they had different points of view is, i think, a unsurprising thing. and be good because it would be worse if we were having this conversation and all the commentary was, well, there was no debate about any of this whatsoever. it was all just signed off, straightforward . signed off, straightforward. someone put a piece of paper, someone that someone checked, and that was the we of it. i think the last we heard of it. i think that would actually be far worse, frankly. so it's worse, quite frankly. so it's good was debate about good that there was debate about these things.

>> well, the prime minister has also blamed borrowing also blamed government borrowing dunng also blamed government borrowing during for record high during lockdown for record high taxes . he told the inquiry the taxes. he told the inquiry the economic impact of paying it backis economic impact of paying it back is only now being felt by taxpayers. it comes as new data shows property taxes are among the highest across the developed world, with the office for budget responsibility signalling further hikes will come . now, further hikes will come. now, three people who tortured and starved a vulnerable woman in west london have been convicted of her murder. the court was told shakira spencer was treated like a slave and went from being a beautiful and happy size 16 in two thousand and seven to looking gaunt and skeletal before her death last year, her body was found in her flat in eaung body was found in her flat in ealing last september , the ealing last september, the defence secretary says securing the seas is the only way to defeat president putin of russia as he announces a new maritime coalition alongside norway to

royal navy mine hunter ships will be transferred to ukraine as part of efforts to bolster the country's defence capability . city it's going to deliver long term support, according to the mod , which includes training the mod, which includes training , equipment and infrastructure to boost security in the region . to boost security in the region. grant shapps says it sends a critical message to president putin if the kremlin does believes we're distracted by events in the middle east, he is mistaken. >> this moment is a wake up call to the west , a >> this moment is a wake up call to the west, a moment once again to the west, a moment once again to renew our complete and utter resolve and prove putin wrong . resolve and prove putin wrong. >> grant shapps a major data breach within the police service of northern ireland has been described as a wake up call for forces across the uk. the surnames and initials of almost 9500 officers and staff were published by mistake back in august . well, the reports into august. well, the reports into that data leak has made 37

separate recommendations for improving information security within the psni . i and chief within the psni. i and chief constable john butcher says he accepts responsibility for the report . report. >> every police force , every >> every police force, every pubuc >> every police force, every public sector organisation should read this report. it is certainly a wake up call for every police force in the country, in my view , it was country, in my view, it was difficult reading , but i accept difficult reading, but i accept andindeed difficult reading, but i accept and indeed embrace the learning within it as the report shows, no individual or team department or decision or indeed act caused this breach . this is an this breach. this is an organisational failing, an accumulation of issues . accumulation of issues. >> john butcher now campaigners are making a last ditch effort to block controversial plans to build a tunnel next to stonehenge in wiltshire. the save stonehenge world heritage site group is challenging the government's decision to back a £1] government's decision to back a £1.7 billion scheme, describing

it as vandalism. the plans will overhaul eight miles of the a3 and three aimed at speeding up journey times across the south—west of england . a hearing south—west of england. a hearing will be held in the high court tomorrow year with gb news across the uk on tv in your car on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news this is britain's news channel. thank you for that, polly, our michelle dewberry with you till seven. >> and alongside me, the giant journalist and parliamentary sketchwriter quentin letts and a senior lecturer at queen mary university of london. richard johnson i'm going to create like a little spin off programme, which is just the panellists reaction to the headlines because quite amusing. because it is quite amusing. quentin was just pointing out to us there what in that news us there was what in that news bulletin wake up calls three wake up calls in one minute, within one minute, get rid of the clock, says quentin. the alarm clock, says quentin. we yeah that is

we don't need it. yeah that is quite a good show, actually. i might create some kind of podcast or something. anyway, you drill, you? you know the drill, don't you? it's about us three. it it's not just about us three. it is about you guys at home as well. what's on your mind tonight? you can in touch tonight? you can get in touch with all the usual ways. with me all the usual ways. email gbnews.com or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet gbnews.com or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me gbnews.com or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me atgbnews.com or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me at gbiews.com or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me at gb news.»m or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me at gb news. l] or you with me all the usual ways. emétweet me at gb news. i think)u can tweet me at gb news. i think i'm going to pronounce this right, but xianzhi. is that how you pronounce it? they say, can i just ask michelle, is anyone else getting fed up of the covid inquiry? the same questions that are being asked again and again and by different sets of and again by different sets of lawyers got a lawyers that person's got a theory. he says. or she says. is it because they are being paid hourly? how on earth will this how earth much money in terms how on earth much money in terms of cost to us, the taxpayers? will inquiry end up being? will this inquiry end up being? yes indeed. we're asking about this because today it was rishi turn in the hot seat. what do you make to this? i think that view, are there some things up very well. a lot of people are drearily fed up about this now. but one of my panellists pointed out last week that actually that's all and good that

that's all well and good that view. you're not someone view. if you're not someone that's one, if that's lost a loved one, if you're perhaps in that camp, this inquiry is perhaps something that they are desperately connected with and concerned by. >> do you think so? i'm not sure about that, actually. and i also question not those question whether or not those are victims of are the only victims of lockdown, my view. there are lockdown, in my view. there are other lockdown, those other victims of lockdown, those whose families were affected by the effects of lockdown and also the effects of lockdown and also the rest of us, the whole country, because we're we were hit economically. so i think we're all victims. i very much fight against this idea fight back against this idea that the people who are that the only people who are victims were those who lost people. >> rishi acknowledge that that didn't he? because at the start of his thing he said sorry, not just people that had just to those people that had lost but also which lost loved ones, but also which i quite interesting. i thought was quite interesting. so that had so those people that had suffered as well. >> yes, i think. and that's because was much more because he was much more sceptical lockdown sceptical about lockdown and others that viewer who others. i mean, that viewer who says she's fed up join the club . says she's fed up join the club. ihave says she's fed up join the club. i have to sit through this blasted thing day after day and then try and write sketches about it where it's he time

blasted . blasted. >> oh, is that what you said? yes. i've got dirty ears. yes. oh, i've got dirty ears. i've dirty ears. i had i've got dirty ears. i had a completely different there. completely different word there. so that myself. so i take that back myself. >> sister michelle. >> sister michelle. >> i know. where are you on? joined a nunnery. >> i know. >> i know. >> where are you? honestly had >> where are you? i honestly had a different word. a completely different word. >> your mind i >> go wash your mind out. i know. i think that says more about me. >> perhaps it does. >> perhaps it does. >> anyway, be very polite. >> anyway, i'll be very polite. i i it's worth i mean, i think it's worth having inquiries these big having inquiries on these big matters, one of the concerns matters, but one of the concerns i is about the timing of i have is about the timing of it. is it too soon in the life life cycle of government life cycle of this government really , to get candid, frank really, to get candid, frank admissions of where things got wrong ? because i think if you're wrong? because i think if you're still having this inquiry, when it's still within the same cycle of the parliament that was elected that did covid, you're going to the people are going to be much more defensive . they're be much more defensive. they're not going to be honest. i mean, i would think one of the ways that might be served is that might be better served is really get behind trying some really to get behind trying some of behind this and really to get behind trying some of really behind this and really to get behind trying some of really look behind this and really to get behind trying some of really look atzhind this and really to get behind trying some of really look at where his and really to get behind trying some of really look at where didand to really look at where did

covid emerge, how did it spread and think about some of the more immediate kind of less politically contentious versus more scientific side because we have some of the best scientists in the world and blame there is a lot of political blame to be had, but that's already been being processed through the political process. and we can have an inquiry down the line that brings in the big hitters and hopefully, you know, once they're they've lost power or whatever , they'll be a bit more whatever, they'll be a bit more honest. and if a point of inquiry is to protect us from making the same mistakes again , making the same mistakes again, wouldn't it make more sense to do do it not in the heat of the political fight, but i think speed was quite important and is quite important because the alleged professed idea of this inquiry is to work out what we do better next time. >> if there's another pandemic, which might happen quite soon. sweden already its sweden has already had its inquiry mistake that the inquiry and the mistake that the lady hallett's inquiry has made is being getting too obsessed . is being getting too obsessed. first of all, with all the political gossip and disaster, having that man cummings up

first because he's total poison to anything. but also it's just got too gripped by those stupid whatsapp messages. we want to know whether or not work down. lockdown worked. now if you look at the death numbers for sweden and japan, which didn't really do lockdowns much lower than ours and much lower than other countries that have done, do you lockdown? >> do you think there was enough? this is point enough? because this is a point that came in the inquiry that came up in the inquiry today when sunak getting today when sunak was getting questioned in terms of the cost benefit analysis that was done on these measures and whether or not they were ever truly considered the impact, the unintended consequences, perhaps, that. perhaps, you might say, of that. >> i think obviously they >> well, i think obviously they were dealing with unknown and were dealing with an unknown and in the pressure of the moment, were dealing with an unknown and in tiknow,;sure of the moment, were dealing with an unknown and in tiknow,;sure ofthe moment, were dealing with an unknown and in tiknow,;sure ofthe big�*ment, were dealing with an unknown and in tiknow,;sure ofthe big concern you know, one of the big concern they was about deaths and they had was about deaths and that's very difficult. i think , that's very difficult. i think, for politicians to have to weigh up the economic consequences and so on. but i mean, in hindsight, it's clear that that there were areas where it was a mistake to go so tough. i mean, speaking

from my sector, from education, i think that we were too tough in shutting down schools and universities . this was a segment universities. this was a segment of the population that by and large was less affected directly by the virus. and we know that the long term costs for education, but also for health, for mental health have have have percolated through the system and some of the ruinous ruin and also the second time round when it came to the later stages of lockdown and the scientists wanted a further one and the politicians have become much more sceptical and they learned that maybe the scientists were in a bit of a muddle about it or else they're pushing too much from a particular view. >> so you mentioned education. i will never forget how often school children were made to mask like for hours and hours mask up like for hours and hours and hours on end for and hours and hours on end for what reason? i mean, the science behind mask mandates were

questionable, i would say at best. you mentioned the cost like you mentioned like very flaky. you mentioned the depending the costs. right. so depending on what factor of the on what your factor of the inquiry, 200 million. no, i was going to the covid measures. going to say the covid measures. right. the covid right. so the cost of the covid measures, depending on you measures, depending on where you look, factor in. so 310 look, what you factor in. so 310 billion to 410 billion. right. which equates actually drill this down a bit to 400, £4,600 to £6,100 for every single person in the uk. right? >> every single person. >> every single person. >> yeah. apparently. yeah. this is, this is a level of debt we're talking about. so a lot of bread. why is there such a fascinate like fascinate ation from people like rishi sunak of paying off this debt quickly? i remember him when power. one of when he came to power. one of the things he did is he the first things he did is he stood proudly stood there really proudly saying not saying things like, we're not going this on to going to pass this debt on to our grandkids and all the rest of it. why not? why? >> we will pass some of it on. but it's good idea to get the but it's a good idea to get the debt down much as you can debt down as much as you can because the debt payments themselves enormous, because the debt payments themselvesthey'reormous, because the debt payments themselvesthey're bigger, enormous. they're bigger than some budgets. some departmental budgets. >> going >> and with interest rates going up, governments more to up, it costs governments more to service debts. i mean, service their debts. i mean, i'm not thinks that

not someone who thinks that governments a debt governments should run a debt free. it's impossible to run government debt free, but particularly now that interest rates higher. that rates are higher. it means that government find more government has to find more revenue to, in effect, maintain the same level of services because more money has to be spent on something that's not a service but is financing the debt. >> you mentioned as well. then in terms of costs of the inquiry, i mean, the costs of this covid inquiry are eye—watering as you were just alluding to. why? why do you think it is so insanely expensive? well lawyers, lawyers, lawyers, £220 per hour, some of them are getting. >> now, if you can keep that going for a few years, i mean, you're looking at at a villa in sardinia at the of it with sardinia at the end of it with with a yacht called the lady hallett. i mean, it's just it's terrific gravy. >> but why is that? because fair enough. people have got commercial rates. i get that. no problem . but where is the kind problem. but where is the kind of negotiated an announce in people? because if you are getting all of these people on a contract x amount of years contract for x amount of years or whatever, where is the

bargaining the bargaining power, the negotiation to bring rates down? >> well , the amalgamated union >> well, the amalgamated union of public servants and lawyers has has really stiffed us on this one. and it's the number of lawyers. i mean, there's about 100 of them involved in this. you go into the inquiry room, it's like nasa headquarters. they're all looking at these control room. you know , all got control room. you know, all got computers and there's masses of ranks of them all. they're quite unnecessary numbers. it is briefly with you, richard. >> yeah, i think also the terms of these inquiries need to be tightened up and need to be thought about more, more carefully. i mean, the thinking about the politics of this, governments want to show the pubuc governments want to show the public that they're taking on accountability and so they want to show that they're doing the full blue ribbon inquiry with with no limits and so on. but actually see in terms of what that might deliver for the taxpayer, particularly in a in a tight political situation. it might not actually deliver very

much at all. >> well, are you reassured by this inquiry? i started the show with a viewers response saying absolutely not. what about you guys at home? tell me what you're making to the inquiry so far. next up, i want to talk to you about how life for you in you about how is life for you in this country? do you feel better off? do you feel things are going in the direction? or going in the right direction? or quite is this country quite frankly, is this country going you tell me .

tomorrow morning, pull the bill, don't have the vote . have the don't have the vote. have the vote risk losing . vote risk losing. >> hi there dewbs& co with me. michelle dewberry. tell seven journalists parliamentary sketchwriter quentin letts alongside me as is the senior lecturer at queen mary university of london. richard johnson senior lecturer. >> can i be a senior sketchwriter if it depends . sketchwriter if it depends. >> you might get you might get some kind of progression promotion. it depends on your performance. more money on performance. get more money on dewbs& do. dewbs& co. i do. >> a little bit, yes . >> a little bit, yes. >> a little bit, yes. >> are you considering a career

change something? change or something? >> can see myself >> yeah. i can see myself as a senior bishop in the church of england. know, my england. you know, one of my viewers, marlena, richard viewers, marlena, says richard is right. is absolutely right. >> he says about shutting >> what he says about shutting schools universities during schools and universities during the pandemic, she says. the covid pandemic, she says. however almost four however there we're almost four years from the first years on now from the first lockdown some universities lockdown and some universities are carry on with are still happy to carry on with some of those measures. she tells about her daughter. she tells us about her daughter. she has to go to university. they have a variety lectures now have a variety of lectures now still conducted on like still conducted on things like zoom, says . covid remains a zoom, she says. covid remains a very convenient excuse for some interesting i hear that. i do hear that actually quite a lot. keep your thoughts coming in one of your my viewers, paul, says, why is this inquiry not focussed on origins of covid? why is on the origins of covid? why is nobody out there seemingly interested in holding people to account when it comes to that? thatis account when it comes to that? that is the million dollar question on. let's talk about this, shall we? there's a variety of reports out that have caught my eye over the last day or so , all about when it comes or so, all about when it comes to the states of life for us here in the uk about the level

of inequality. the difference and the gap between the haves and the gap between the haves and the gap between the haves and the have nots, the amount of tax that we're paying, the threshold and the rates and the levels of things like property tax.et levels of things like property tax. et cetera. et cetera . tax. et cetera. et cetera. that's before i even get to on the subjects of ten out of the next election. and how people vote. they're depending on class. sometimes, for class. and sometimes, for example, go and example, don't even go out and vote at all. is this country going backwards ? going backwards? >> quentin letts no, i don't think so. i see a terrific place to live. i love england, i love britain and you mentioned there you're in the camp of the haves. i . that's true. but when you i am. that's true. but when you go into the streets, you don't get a great idea of haves and have nots. it strikes that have nots. it strikes me that britain is very homogenised britain is a very homogenised country, particularly much more class than used to be the class wise than used to be the case. we've we've forgotten a lot of our class hang ups. thank goodness. yes. >> i think it expresses itself generationally now. and i think the is, is housing the big divide is, is housing security and that, i think is something that people of my age and younger are constantly

mention on about how they don't have a sense that they're going to be able to get a to buy a house that but also that in the private rented market that it's just the conditions can often be terrible that they're far too expensive. and then to add on to that, i think the other thing that, i think the other thing that makes people feel like the country is not going anywhere is quite literally when it comes to infrastructure . and the sense infrastructure. and the sense that the railways and the potholes and just the way of getting around the country becomes harder and harder as it feels that there's not been enough investment in these in these kind of vital services . these kind of vital services. >> his in a slightly less mercantile way though this is a country where i think there's terrific racial harmony. i've lived in america and it's a much less happy place for someone to be have a mixed race marriage, for instance. this country is much better on that. but also just the general british sense of humour is a terrific thing still. and i think that there

are untold old benefits in the british approach to things for instance, one of which is disrespect for politicians as we chuck pies at our politicians in the way that some other countries don't. and maybe that's a consequence of having a monarch who's not involved in politics, which is a good thing. but i just think this is this is still a peerless place to be. >> come on. i was going to say, i mean, i think in terms of sort of the social and cultural divisions in this country, i would agree that they feel less intense than they do, say, in the united states and or france or france. yeah. i mean , i think or france. yeah. i mean, i think i mean, they have a harder edge in some of those countries. and also, we still, although also, i think we still, although there are clear divisions and they do feel they're growing in some ways, know, we some ways, you know, still we can come together as a country for the most in a way in for the most part in a way in which now, you know, when i travel in the united states or in france or some other in france or in some other european countries, now, there seems be a real genuine seems to be a real genuine

divide hate their divide where people hate their fellow we're fellow citizens. yeah, we're very self—critical in this country, the country, but, you know, the immigration status sticks rather. >> i mean, which which we all have been getting so worked up about. do show one thing that people still want to come here. >> well, are you too . >> well, are you too. >> well, are you too. >> i'll say it to you both. are you too? just a little bit out of touch because you are in like the you're in the posh end of society. i would suggest to some senior a member of the senior lecturer, a member of the politico. sketchwriter politico. senior sketchwriter yes senior sketchwriter you are. >> yeah, that's a fair point. michelle that's a fair point. but i've got three children who are in their early 20s and they are in their early 20s and they are they they're not in any sort of ambrosia themselves economically. so, you know, i see, i see their point of view as well. >> the disadvantage. ridge apparently in this country, they are no better off than they were 50 years ago. life for those people is not getting easier. there are no kind of, i don't know, like happy days on the honzon know, like happy days on the horizon . life for those people horizon. life for those people is very tough. >> unemployment is much lower

now , but there's been there's now, but there's been there's been significant wage stagnation for a very long time now. >> so people do don't see >> and so people do don't see throughout western europe . throughout western europe. >> i mean, america is done much better on that front. >> but people don't see an improvement in their lives after working in in, you know, their for job a long time. i mean, forjob a long time. i mean, people feel that they're just treading water. and you can see how people can feel very i think that's true of everyone. >> i i maybe there's >> i don't i mean, maybe there's a of a lot of youngsters are a lot of a lot of youngsters are in their early 20s and they're getting opportunities. getting some opportunities. there opportunities there are a lot of opportunities out there if you are out there and if you are there are a graduates, though, are a lot of graduates, though, who get the jobs that are who don't get the jobs that are well, of graduates have well, a lot of graduates have too much have taken on too much debt slightly dodgy courses debt for slightly dodgy courses sometimes your sometimes and not not like your courses, are brilliant, courses, which are brilliant, but some universities but there are some universities out that are taking their out there that are taking their students and maybe students for a ride and maybe the would be better not the kids would be better off not doing those courses. >> but say, i found that >> but you say, i found that interesting what you said interesting what you just said then a lot of then and you said a lot of graduates are not getting jobs at their or where to that

effect. >> i think one of the >> i think that one of the problems is in society will come on before the end on to education before the end of program is that so many of the program is that so many people have pushed people have been pushed into university this of university and fed this kind of illusion that, you know, you're going to have this degree and then you're somehow at a different elevated level to other you've got other people and you've got these illusions kind these kind of illusions of kind of and, know, i'm of grandeur and, you know, i'm not disrespectful, not being disrespectful, but i didn't to imply that. didn't mean to imply that. >> well, i was talking about were, that were, you know, jobs that require do require graduate degrees to do them. quite often, which them. i mean, quite often, which is too many jobs. well way is way too many jobs. well way too many degrees. >> agree to a degree. >> now, i agree to a degree. >> now, i agree to a degree. >> and quite often it can be actually people who go down the non—degree get non—degree job who can get a skill like being a plumber or an electrician can actually electrician who can actually sometimes better than the sometimes do better than the students gone to students who have gone to university and we have had a problem of people being directed to too often into university before considering the alternative. >> and we're going to come on to education towards the end of the programme, because i want to ask you, are we teaching young people the right in people the right skills in schools or not? but in the meantime, from says,

meantime, kathy from devon says, can you ask quentin letts what on on about? she on earth he's on about? she says, i often haven't got says, i quite often haven't got a that's the of a clue myself. that's the end of the programme. just leave the programme. we'll just leave it that's $1 million it there. that's $1 million question says. we've question right? she says. we've never been more divided as a country. brexit showed us that we're by race, we're divided by class race, money, politics, town and country. typical of country. quinton is typical of the elite or london the metropolitan elite or london centric and have no idea what life is like for the rest of us. kathy i live in herefordshire. she's finished. she's not she's not finished. she's not finished. did rac has been failed politicians who are failed by politicians who are universally derided the media universally derided by the media and unable to stand up and they seem unable to stand up for civil servants who are not elected. real problem, elected. the real problem, she says, media says, lie with the media who have power in this country. >> newspapers have less power than they used to. >> i wanted to be a >> alas, i wanted to be a dictator, but i went into the wrong field and i live in herefordshire, so i'm not a london file. i hate london. >> but do you think there's because i actually think what she's saying is quite interesting. >> and also when you say about we're very united, i would argue actually, that i think she's wrong. >> i think she's wrong. i think brexit was a lot of some people

got their knickers in a twist about brexit. but a lot of them were middle class. but were in the middle class. but i just don't it's right that just don't think it's right that our is more divided. say our country is more divided. say than the united states or greece or , which is about to or spain, which is about to bifurcate. maybe or france. it's just not true. >> but why are you comparing to us i don't mean to be rude to those countries, but some of the like the lowest common denominators. like the lowest common derwhy|ators. like the lowest common derwhy|at0|we saying, >> why are we saying, oh, because in of because they're in a bit of a mess over there. we're not as bad as them, so therefore it's okay. >> well, i mean, i mentioned sudan. does that help you? >> but i just. you think >> no, but i just. do you think it's just not true of russia? >> i don't think china these places much less good places places are much less good places to uk. to live than the uk. >> i don't think we're more unhed >> i don't think we're more united than we used to be. but i mean, i do think worth mean, i do think it's worth looking at other parts of the world, you know, peer rich democracies seeing democracies and seeing that actually, you do like actually, you know, we do like to ourselves in this to beat ourselves up in this country, be it country, but it could be it could be worse. now, that's not to say that it can't be better here, but i do that by and here, but i do think that by and large, people for large, most people don't. for example, engr page

example, now refuse to engr page with with get involved with with talk with get involved with his friends, people that they have political disagreements with. and i think that we should try to cherish that as much as we can and we should be able to learn to disagree. well that's why channel is actually why this channel is actually very useful in that regard , very useful in that regard, because it i think it takes that that seriously. and as a country, we should take that . we country, we should take that. we should cherish that, simon says . should cherish that, simon says. >> this country is lost. there is absolutely no incentive anymore do the right anymore to go and do the right thing, to go to work and to abide by the law. for example, lee says, i feel sorry for my children and their future . children and their future. michelle was a child, michelle when i was a child, where places like youth centres, towns were bustling people towns were bustling with people you live, you you could afford to live, you had to look forward to in had things to look forward to in life. how have we become now over the years? what do we really to look forward to? really have to look forward to? our children deserve better than the shambles. that's lee in cornwall . well, that whole point cornwall. well, that whole point about youth centres and things like that's does kind of like that, that's does kind of come up quite a lot. do you

think the closures of youth centres and things like that have kind of somehow impacted in terms progression for young terms of progression for young people and their opportunities in life , or is that an excuse? in life, or is that an excuse? >> no, i don't think an >> no, i don't think it's an excuse and think that have excuse and i think that we have seen out of the seen a hollowing out of the kinds public services and in kinds of public services and in the way of keeping town centres in places that were desirable for people to come and to spend time. so places look shabbier. you know, part of that is, of course, that the nature of, say, retail has changed. and so the kinds of shops that maybe families would have gone to now are not there in the same way. but also it requires then government to take to take proactive, proactive steps and to try to actually make , you to try to actually make, you know , if shops are empty to take know, if shops are empty to take them over, to take them over perhaps, and to turn them into places where young people can spend time and hang out and be in a in a in a safe environment. because if that's not happening

and if people don't come from homes where they have lots of space and places to socialise and then they could be in much less desirable places and that will be a bad thing, i'll just say to people like kathy simon and lee be be not so gloomy , i'd and lee be be not so gloomy, i'd say go places like in near me, which is in herefordshire , as which is in herefordshire, as i say, not in london, on a sunday morning. >> ledbury rugby club. there are hundreds of kids getting involved. it's fantastic site. the trouble is they don't come to church. but i mean, it's just the community involvement there is fantastic . and also the is fantastic. and also the village next to us is a little cricket club which gets just lots of boys and girls involved in sport and there are really good things going on. if you just get involved, get out of your house, looking your your house, stop looking at your mobile telephone and be positive. >> be optimistic. i agree with that. but people need the that. but people do need the right they also need that. but people do need the rigfeel they also need that. but people do need the rigfeel that they also need that. but people do need the rigfeel that they're/ also need that. but people do need the rigfeel that they're in lso need that. but people do need the rigfeel that they're in ao need that. but people do need the rigfeel that they're in a in|eed that. but people do need the rigfeel that they're in a in aed to feel that they're in a in a safe environment . right. and safe environment. right. and that's across the that's not true across the country. in some maybe that's not true across the co some in some maybe

that's not true across the co some rural in some maybe that's not true across the co some rural areas, ;ome maybe that's not true across the co some rural areas, that's|aybe in some rural areas, that's that's easy to achieve. that's quite easy to achieve. but you know, often, particularly youth in urban areas , that kind of security and areas, that kind of security and areas, that kind of security and a nice space and so on is actually harder to find than you might think. i've got to say. >> there'll be people watching this. i know some of my viewers will be screaming at you. >> tellies. you'll be telling me that there real that actually there is no real sense of communities in the areas that you live anymore, that your cities, your towns are changing before your very eyes at speed, you're at a rate of speed, that you're struggling to up with and struggling to catch up with and that there's not much to look positive about in your area. claire goodness claire says, goodness me, i agree quentin. me agree with quentin. we are. me and partner are always saying and my partner are always saying this is the best country to live in. people need to stop moaning, get believe me, we get to work, and believe me, we have better than most have it better than most countries. very lucky, countries. we are very lucky, says claire. >> come to village, carol service. >> then you'll see. then you'll move where lives. it sounds move where he lives. it sounds absolutely all of our absolutely fabulous. all of our problems would be gone, wouldn't they? anyway, look, let's talk nhs reckons that nhs wes streeting reckons that basically saying that basically they're saying that winter they're using basically they're saying that wint�*as they're using basically they're saying that wint�*as an they're using basically they're saying that wint�*as an excuse they're using basically they're saying that wint�*as an excuse forey're using basically they're saying that wint�*as an excuse for moreising

basically they're saying that wint�*as an excuse for more money that as an excuse for more money every year. he says what the nhs needsis every year. he says what the nhs needs is tough love, needs is more tough love, a little bit of hugging. is that right? you me .

they've issued an open invite to any of those five backbench groups . to hi any of those five backbench groups. to hi there. >> michelle dewberry till 7:00. quentin letts and richard johnson remain alongside me. before the break, i brought coffee from devon in one of my viewers. she was disagreeing with quentin. quentin basically said, don't be so gloomy, kathy . said, don't be so gloomy, kathy. well, kathy is responded , oh, well, kathy is responded, oh, no, she's back. this is. yeah this helmets. yeah. it's a future show. this cafe v quentin, she says i am not gloomy at all. quentin i love this country, but it's on its knees and i am involved. she says that she's involved. she's a trustee for a local council, for example. says, you're for example. she says, you're response. telling response. your response telling people like just to be more people like herjust to be more positive how out of touch positive shows how out of touch you are. she says her local council are not council offices are still not back work since the back at work yet. since the pandemic. of their housing pandemic. all of their housing stock. she says, been bought

stock. she says, has been bought by not me , by people like >> not me, by people like quentin rich city folk who have noidea quentin rich city folk who have no idea what life is like for working class people. >> communities are divided, >> our communities are divided, she . simon says no one is she says. simon says no one is talking about the state of the construct industry. i am a bricklayer, he says. haven't been able to work since the beginning of october. ryan says the more successful you are in this country, the government simply takes advantage of you. there you go. let's talk nhs, shall we? because wes streeting has basically said that every winter a crisis comes around and it's been used by the nhs to ask for more money. he's saying it's time to accept that we don't need more money. money is in fact tight. what we need instead is to rethink perhaps how it provides care and to approach it with a tough love approach. is he right? >> well, i think we have seen in the last few years is more money has into health service has gone into the health service after a period of not proper austerity for the health service , but certainly around it. and

the situation doesn't feel much better for people . and so i do better for people. and so i do think that it is time for us to think that it is time for us to think about how the health service can work better and wes streeting was talking about the ways in which we can use technology to join things up better, the way in which the gp services is can be much more efficient. i mean, it does seem when you interact with the gp service that it is a bit it feels like it is a bit stepping back in time, trying to ring through and, and get, get your appointment and wait and so on. so i do think that although money very important for the money is very important for the health it clearly isn't health service, it clearly isn't the end all. and the be all and end all. and i think he's right to start raising questions about it. raising some questions about it. >> agree? >> do you agree? >> do you agree? >> do. i think little i >> yes, i do. i think little i love little where's wes streeting? he's he's one of the few labour lot frontbenchers who's trying to who's actually trying to make a character, political character who's actually trying to make a cha himself olitical character who's actually trying to make a cha himself ,litical character who's actually trying to make a cha himself , which character who's actually trying to make a cha himself , which is aracter who's actually trying to make a chahimself , which is quiter for himself, which is quite important if labour is important because if labour is going be in government, we going to be in government, we need able to relate to need to be able to relate to these people and they need to be able sell messages to us. able to sell messages to us. it's important part of

it's a very important part of the political set the the political set up and the politicians to be prepared politicians have to be prepared to characters . and little politicians have to be prepared to is characters . and little politicians have to be prepared to is a characters . and little politicians have to be prepared to is a sort acters . and little politicians have to be prepared to is a sort actlittle and little politicians have to be prepared to is a sort actlittle chapittle wears is a sort of little chap in a way. but i mean, he's he's showing himself to have he's got a bit of cop on in a way. however i think he's talking complete baloney. i don't believe of what he's believe a word of what he's saying. that? because saying. why that? because although talking although he's talking tough about well, there's our about the nhs, well, there's our glory about the nhs, well, there's our glo look. what that's our glory there. >> oh, there she is. yes >> oh, there she is. yes >> anyway, digress. >> anyway, i digress. >> anyway, i digress. >> don't think i don't >> anyway, i don't think i don't think wes will ever actually be able to pull off any beating up of the nhs because i don't think the labour movement will stand for it and i don't think sir keir starmer, who seems to me a bit of a feeble flower, i don't think that sir keir starmer will go for it. so i think wes streeting is just it's sort of political triangulation going on here. it's sort of he's sort of choreography rather than anything meaningful in terms of policy . policy. >> sandra says the problem with the nhs is simple, michel. there's too many chiefs and not enough indians as well. >> i think that's not the only

problem with it. i mean, one of the problems that we have is that the nhs has been picking up the other areas of the slack in other areas of service that are, that have faced much tighter cuts . so for faced much tighter cuts. so for example, when it comes to mental health, both the nhs has had to deal with that which might some of that's been consequence of lockdown and so on. the consequence is of the social care crisis , both for child care care crisis, both for child care but also much more significantly for the nhs. adult social care and then nhs is basically having to try to pick up the pieces for this because the nhs has been kind of politically protected and has had extra funding. but that's not really how the system ought to work. so it's not just a question of looking at the nhs, it's actually looking at some of the ancillary services around have been under around it, which have been under around it, which have been under a squeeze. a tighter squeeze. >> it's bit random as well, >> it's a bit random as well, isn't it? my old mum, 89, had to have one of her headlights done. i had have a cataract i had to have a cataract

operation and she was waiting over a year for it at our local county hospital. but then when i mentioned this to the optician and well, mad. and they said, well, that's mad. and week they'd got her and within a week they'd got her an she was done an appointment and she was done at hospital . so it at gloucester hospital. so it just to me that the, just seems to me that that the, the random quality, the, the disparate levels of care suggest an organisation isn't entirely working as it should. indeed. >> and a postcode lottery, some might say. vicki says , michelle, might say. vicki says, michelle, our democratic vote has been ignored again by ignored time and time again by our governments . and therefore our governments. and therefore you how can we be optimistic you ask how can we be optimistic about the future when essentially we have no say at all about where our country is going ? and again, lots of people going? and again, lots of people too much focus in terms of on diversity and inclusion and all the rest of it on the nhs. many people are saying we should . people are saying we should. echo what some of the other countries are doing and charge people perhaps to go and see a gp's is an ongoing conversation, isn't there, about charging people to attend

people if they fail to attend their appointments? that's always interesting proposal always an interesting proposal and michelle, why and michelle says, michelle, why are about are you not talking about the awful doncaster in awful attack in doncaster in that michelle i'm that shop? yes, michelle i'm very, of that attack. very, very aware of that attack. it's absolutely appalling. a lady got in lady apparently got locked in a shop very, very badly shop and very, very badly abused. unfortunate i can't really debate that subject because it is an ongoing legal case as we speak. but we're not. i'm indeed very, very aware of it. i want to talk to you after the break about young people. we touched on this, haven't we? education in many parents now saying they want schools to prioritise like life prioritise things like life skills over a focus on purely academic study our our schools, teaching our children the right things

hello there michelle dewberry title seven journalist parliament sketchwriter quentin letts alongside me, senior lecturer at queen mary , lecturer at queen mary, university of london. richard johnson is too. they're just

having a conversation in the break about one of the points that quentin made earlier in the show when he was saying basically the need for basically about the need for politicians to essentially become , characters, become caricatures, characters, expanse. >> well, it's a very important part of public life is reaching out to people. and there are lots of reports at the moment that the voter turnout is likely to be low next time round. that's possibly because the two main party leaders and neither of them is wildly exciting, aren't they? >> and to glue pots, really. so you think about some of the best politicians both on the left and the right, who who are able to lean into their characters. you know, wilson with his know, harold wilson with his pipe know, harold wilson with his pipe and his coat and his pipe and his gannex coat and his having his spam, or margaret thatcher leaned into her character or a tony benn . and i character or a tony benn. and i think more recently , you know, think more recently, you know, nigel farage of this, of this channel or, or boris johnson, they they are able to embrace , they they are able to embrace, you know, a rounded person an and it makes them more accessible sometimes they're liked for it, sometimes they're

loathed for it. but the public can feel something about them that's quite human rather than bureaucratic . bureaucratic. >> well, there you go. is that what you want in your politician is a character. speaking of characters, nigel farage is indeed out of the jungle now, and joining his and he will be joining us on his show so don't miss show at 7:00. so don't miss that. the millionaire graham graham says michelle britton is a third world country now for most cor blimey. is that a view you can't say third world country now anyway , look, country now anyway, look, developing countries, a report that was published today shows that was published today shows that essentially parents want their to taught more their kids to be taught more practical skills school, get practical skills in school, get this, it's such like a healthy eating , a financial literacy eating, a financial literacy which i get the latter one. but healthy eating is that the job of a school teacher really? anyway, so many parents now are saying let's focus more on life skills focus skills than this obsessive focus on academia. you're a lecturer. do you agree? >> i disagree because i think learning traditional, traditional subjects does teach certain life skills. okay maybe not in the most direct way , but

not in the most direct way, but learning how to prepare for an exam requires you to learn how to time manage to be self disciplined. how to make decisions about do you go out with your friends or do you do you spend time doing something productive ? now, this isn't to productive? now, this isn't to say that this is the only set of skills that a student should learn. i think to that learn. but i think to say that learning traditional learning kind of traditional subject is passe, is definitely a kind of faddish overreach action. >> that's true for some people, isn't it? and those those some more bookish children will benefit from , um, a really benefit from, um, a really scholastic intellectual subject, even like latin and greek, even though you can't go to the ancient world and jump in a taxi and use your in ancient greek, it's still got a usefulness in that the mind. that it develops the mind. however, the less bookish however, for the less bookish children, i suspect that there is some benefit in the more vocational stuff. and also the one of public schools one area of public schools teaching i would drop is teaching that i would drop is can say this before, before can we say this before, before 6:00 or 7:00, the sex teaching, it strikes me as complete waste of time because the children

mainly know much more about the birds and the bees than than a lot of staff and they lot of the staff do. and they just those lessons. the just enjoy those lessons. the excruciating embarrassment of mr snobs having to talk about it sort of below the radar , below sort of below the radar, below the navel stuff, you know, i mean, it's just it's pointless. so i would far rather that children learned how to change a spare wheel or something like that in those lessons. >> mean, i am concerned >> i mean, i am very concerned actually, about the whole kind of is the word for it now, of what is the word for it now, genden or of what is the word for it now, gender, or whatever gender, ideology or whatever it's almost it's called. that's almost to me, feels like getting me, it feels like it's getting taught schools as like a fact taught in schools as like a fact that wants to be a girl that if a boy wants to be a girl and vice versa, then you can be i don't understand where that has suddenly in. and it's has suddenly come in. and it's almost like without challenge, it's and it's just in the schools. and that very contested that is a very contested ideology. as a mother, ideology. and as a mother, something very something that i am very concerned with. but don't even get me started on that cause i've get me started on that cause pve got get me started on that cause i've got few minutes to i've only got a few minutes to go that is a whole topic to go and that is a whole topic to debate itself. debate on itself. >> subject that it is. >> very good subject that it is. >> very good subject that it is. >> is. it's one of my >> i mean, it is. it's one of my primary concerns actually, because isn't at because my child isn't at school, but he's heading that

way. of course, like all children. and i start to think, way. of course, like all cdon'tn. and i start to think, way. of course, like all c don't wanti i start to think, way. of course, like all c don't want my;tart to think, way. of course, like all c don't want my son to think, way. of course, like all c don't want my son to thiiwould i don't want my son and i would say indoctrinated into this mentality that you're not mentality that if you're not happy a boy, don't worry happy being a boy, don't worry about can sort of about it, son. you can sort of just become a girl and all your woes now fixed. i don't buy woes are now fixed. i don't buy into that. and it's into that. and i think it's a root mental health issues on root for mental health issues on that. children. but anyway, i think that of important think that one of the important skills students to learn skills is for students to learn critical thinking and that means being a space, being able to have a space, particularly, for particularly, i guess for i'm thinking universities but thinking at universities but also secondary school and also in secondary school and some of the subjects where you learn how to have good arguments, you learn how to put your across. arguments, you learn how to put youwell, across. arguments, you learn how to put youwell, and)ss. arguments, you learn how to put youwell, and then sometimes you >> well, and then sometimes you learn put that put learn how to put that put a different case well. but learning structure your learning to how structure your thoughts again , that's thoughts and ideas again, that's something taught the something that's taught in the kind more traditional kind of more traditional subject matters . but i think actually matters. but i think actually that can be very useful in life. learning how to engage with other being able to other people and being able to to how sometimes to sell yourself. if you're on the on in the market, you take it the job market, if you take it into kind of into that kind of instrumentalist way. >> work in >> mike says, i work in education schools need to education and schools need to teach personal discipline. a

large number of these days large number of kids these days can't conversation. they can't hold a conversation. they become they have become aggressive and they have no of personal no sense of personal responsibility either. a lot of them think they are. some kind of superstar gangster and that teachers be living in teachers should be living in fear of them. this generation , fear of them. this generation, he surmises, is much worse than the last. >> well, that's very depressing to that's where to hear that. but that's where the about critical the point about critical thinking important. and thinking is important. and you've good thing you've got the good thing about a is get exposed a school is you get exposed actually. see, very hard actually. see, it's very hard thing say, but a bit of thing to say, but a bit of bullying sometimes, a bit of teasing shows people that they're super king and they're not the super king and they're not the super king and they don't actually have the right run the world some right to run the world that some of might think. of these youngsters might think. i mean, one of the most i mean, and one of the most important very important things is also very counter to say. counter intuitive thing to say. it's important. i think , it's very important. i think, for a school and my parents used to run school, important to run school, very important for school to some bad for a school to have some bad teachers children teachers because the children then learn how far they can push then learn how far they can push the mickey taking of a of a bad teacher and you do learn from that. you do learn the sort of levels of how to deal with bad authority. >> ron says. i think everyone

should be asking our parents abdicating their responsibilities to schools think that is a very interested thing. question yes. alex says schools should teach life skills , but also they need to focus on the importance of diversity issues faced by the lgbtqi and other minority groups and the history of racism by this country to show them all how to be better , he says . i mean, we be better, he says. i mean, we could we literally could do a whole show on this one as well. iteach whole show on this one as well. i teach maths to 16 to 19 year olds, says jan . i do touch on olds, says jan. i do touch on some aspects of income tax and it always amuses me how their little faces drop when they see how much tax they might be paying how much tax they might be paying on their salary after the age of 18, she says. i've got to say, when you see their faces, it make my day. but maybe i it does make my day. but maybe i am says jan. don't am very cruel, says jan. don't worry, your secret is safe with us. listen, quentin was telling us. listen, quentin was telling us all about his idyllic life . i us all about his idyllic life. i am going to try and arrange quinton v kathy from devon. i might organise it on pay per

view. in the meantime, we did learn that quinton is a member of his choir. you want to of his choir. do you want to sing the show? i'd rather not. >> i've got the right underpants for on doing the tenor part. >> quentin . >> quentin. >> quentin. >> i hark the herald >> i mean, hark the herald angels how about angels sing. how about that? keep going, then. >> got about more >> we've got about 15 more seconds. well can't remember seconds. well i can't remember all words. all the words. >> jesus. no, no. glory to glory, to the newborn king. there everyone. there you go, everyone. >> don't to move to one >> you don't need to move to one of these villages. we'll bring the you. have a good the villages to you. have a good night nigel is up night at nigel farage is up next. a treat for you all. next. what a treat for you all. have one. nana have a good one. nana >> a brighter outlook with >> it's a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news evening. on. gb news evening. >> i'm alex deakin and this is your latest weather update from the met office for gb news. after most of us had a dry monday, expect some heavy downpours tomorrow. thunderstorms and some thunderstorms possible and some gusty winds thanks to this area of low pressure. slowly but surely it's been heading towards us over the past 24 hours and

now providing some pretty heavy rain across ireland rain across northern ireland where to linger for where it's likely to linger for most the and that most of the night. and that could disruption. so could cause some disruption. so we have a met office yellow we do have a met office yellow warning in place elsewhere. the rain move through, rain does tend to move through, but quite a bit of but could drop quite a bit of rain in a short space of time as that band crosses england wales into scotland. a touch into southern scotland. a touch of possible in northern of frost possible in northern scotland for but scotland for a time, but generally rising as generally temperatures rising as the night goes on and the rain moves into north—east england. southeast scotland first thing tomorrow and then it kind of lingers again for most of the day. again, because it's been day. so again, because it's been so wet, that could cause some issues south. there'll issues further south. there'll be showers, heavy showers , be showers, heavy showers, potential large hail potential for some large hail stones as these showers drift through. should through. they should move through. they should move through will quite through because it will be quite blustery. if it brightens blustery. and if it brightens up, could get to 12, 13 up, we could get up to 12, 13 degrees. but feeling a lot cooler than that, 7 or 8 with the more persistent rain over southeast scotland and north—east that slowly north—east england that slowly fizzles night, but fizzles on tuesday night, but stays fairly damp across eastern parts of england on wednesday. elsewhere are looking much brighter and drier air. and that

is the theme for the second half of the week. low pressure systems disappear and high systems disappear and a high moves promising a lot. drier moves in promising a lot. drier weather for most for the weather for most of us. for the second of this week. second half of this week. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers as sponsors of weather on .

gb news good evening. >> yes, i'm back after 23 nights in the jungle, much to talk aboutin in the jungle, much to talk about in terms of what happened in there. >> even more to talk about in terms of what's happening to our so—called conservative government. for now, i'll government. but for now, i'll hand you back to richard tice . hand you back to richard tice. thank you, nigel. it's great to see you. there is so much to talk about. we need you back here. we've got to talk about rwanda. absolute turmoil in the

conservative party as we speak, changing by the hour. the prime minister has been at the covid inquiry. i've been very critical of that. we'll see what he's been saying today and much, much more. but first of all, it's the news with polly middlehurst . news with polly middlehurst. >> richard, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story tonight from the gp newsroom is that the government's rwanda legislation has come under fire once again , has come under fire once again, this time from a breakaway group of conservative mps who say it needs a complete rewrite . it. needs a complete rewrite. it. mark francois, chairman of the tory led european research group, says the rwanda bill provides a partial and in complete solution and therefore a total overhaul may be the only way to stop the boats. but illegal migration minister michael tomlinson says he's confident the plan can plies with the law and will work . with the law and will work. >> look, this is the toughest piece of legislation that's ever