has written an award winning who has written an award winning novel called a bellwether christmas, which tells a story of christmas in medieval times . of christmas in medieval times. it was inspired by historical events. we will be asking what christmas day would have been like back in the 13th century. and finally , we'll be speaking and finally, we'll be speaking to professor ralph schollhammer, a friend of the show, to discuss the history of the christmas tree. all of that and lots of chat with my panellist andrew eborn . but first, an update on eborn. but first, an update on the latest news headlines . the latest news headlines. >> thanks , neil. good evening, >> thanks, neil. good evening, i'm ray anderson in the gb news room. merry christmas to you all our top stories. one of the uk's richest men has agreed to buy a 25% stake in manchester united . 25% stake in manchester united. billionaire and ineos chairman sir jim ratcliffe says he wants to make take bannau to the very top of english, european and world football. the move will

see around £236 million pumped into the club , and includes the into the club, and includes the responsibility of managing its operations . police are urging operations. police are urging drivers to take extra care on the roads following a number of collisions in the past 24 hours. millions of motorists are on the highways this weekend, the aa telling drivers to expect lengthy jams as people travel for their christmas getaways , as for their christmas getaways, as the met office is also warning of the risks of flying debris and power cuts , with wind gusts and power cuts, with wind gusts of up to 70mph hitting parts of scotland and northern england. rail passengers have been deaung rail passengers have been dealing with delays and cancellations as well, with major london stations closing for engineering works well party leaders may be at odds in parliament, but they are united in spreading festive cheer this yeah in spreading festive cheer this year. now warning for those of you watching on television, some of the footage we're about to show contains flash photography in his christmas message, the

prime minister offered a promise of a brighter future, while labour's sir keir starmer said that the story of jesus is a reminder that in dark times, hope and love are always worth advocating for. both leaders have thanked frontline and key workers for their service over the christmas period . well, the the christmas period. well, the king will deliver his second christmas message from a room decorated with a living christmas tree for the first time. a photograph has been released ahead of tomorrow's broadcast. king charles is a long terme environmental campaigner, so sustainable and natural ornaments are hanging from the tree, which will be replanted at a later date and you can watch the king's message here on gb news at 3 pm. on christmas day tomorrow is set to be the warmest christmas day in more than a century, with the met office saying that temperatures will reach 14 or even 15 degrees. that's after

15.3 was recorded at heathrow and cippenham in berkshire today, making it the warmest christmas eve in over 20 years. this is gb news across the uk on tv and in your car on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news. now let's get back to . let's get back to. neil oliver. >> i've always been a child around and about christmas. my folks were especially good at doing christmas and it rubbed off on me . doing christmas and it rubbed off on me. i've doing christmas and it rubbed off on me . i've never grown out off on me. i've never grown out off on me. i've never grown out of it or beyond it. for the 20 plus years that i've had my own family and my own children, it's only made me fonder. their childhoods gave me all the excuse i needed to extend my own indefinitely , wallowing in all indefinitely, wallowing in all that christmas has always meant to me , as i'm sure is true for

to me, as i'm sure is true for most. my first memory of hearing the story of the nativity of the birth of jesus is from my earliest school days . i still earliest school days. i still regard it as one of the most comforting and hopeful stories of all the bare outlines of what became the stuff of a gazillion nativity plays for children to perform , my own included are perform, my own included are split between the gospels of matthew and luke, mary and joseph travelling to bethlehem. no room at the inn, an infant laid in a manger. shepherds sent by an angel to see him, a guiding star. three kings beanng guiding star. three kings bearing gifts . saint francis of bearing gifts. saint francis of assisi is credited with putting on the first nativity play in 1223, having been given permission by the pope . permission by the pope. apparently his production featured a hay lined manger , a featured a hay lined manger, a donkey, an ox and a sermon about the baby jesus . renaissance the baby jesus. renaissance artists like leonardo, michelangelo , botticelli and michelangelo, botticelli and raphael all painted nativity

scenes and so fixed images in everyone's minds. the appearance of the angel, the adoration of the shepherds and kings, the flight of the holy family out of danger and into egypt . danger and into egypt. historians debate every scrap , historians debate every scrap, of course, some speculating that it was only fiction added many decades after the crucifixion to satisfy early christian audiences keen to know the circumstance of the birth of their messiah . circumstance of the birth of their messiah. i'm circumstance of the birth of their messiah . i'm not moved their messiah. i'm not moved either way by any of the speculation, and doubt. none of it matters as far as i'm concerned. the story just works for me. like magic, always has and always will. as with so much in the bible, there are layers of meaning that might be overlooked and yet carry so much weight. we get the reference to the inn from the greek word kataluma that more accurately describes a room in an ordinary home offered to guests. travellers with nowhere else to go.the travellers with nowhere else to go. the name jesus means to deliver or to rescue bethlehem

means house of bread , and jesus means house of bread, and jesus is laid in a feeding trough for animals as a reminder that he will grow to be food for all, and an invitation to a table from which their lowly status had previously left them. excluded and shepherds were the lowest of the low in israelite society . but it was they who society. but it was they who were sent by the angel to welcome jesus. first of all, the christmas story is about kindness to strangers . help for kindness to strangers. help for those in need about feeding the poorest and hungriest. if we forget christmas, we forget what it is to be human. or perhaps humane. it's about a mother and her baby and hope everlasting in the darkest of times. it's a story about light kindled in the dark , and we tell it to our dark, and we tell it to our children in what might otherwise be the darkest week of the year. here in the northern latitudes. december 25th was likely adopted as the date of the birth to unite, and so include older traditions and festivals . the traditions and festivals. the 25th was the date of the roman

festival of sol invictus. the unconquered sun, celebrating the coming of longer days and shorter nights after the winter solstice . it was close enough as solstice. it was close enough as well to saturnalia, the mid—december festival, when romans sang songs , kindled romans sang songs, kindled lights, shared food and exchanged gifts . but for all exchanged gifts. but for all that i love christmas like no other time of year , i'm hardly other time of year, i'm hardly blind to the reality of the world. just now , my children world. just now, my children have intensified my pleasure in everything the significance of everything the significance of everything but that's double edged from the moment i had a child, children , it's been child, children, it's been impossible to watch or hear about anything happening to other children, other people's children in other places, anything bad of any sort, without seeing the faces of my own , remembering always the own, remembering always the vulnerability of my own . and vulnerability of my own. and when it comes to christmas this yean when it comes to christmas this year, like no year, i remember before, i can't think about me and mine without contemplating what's happening in the

benighted holy land where the story of christmas began . story of christmas began. bethlehem, where we are told jesus was born, sits now in the west bank and has been under siege by israeli forces since the start of the war. would there still be a room at the inn this year for any lost souls? some scholars say the christians of palestine in gaza and the west bank are the remnants of the oldest christian community in the world, with roots in the early first century ad , they are early first century ad, they are known as living stones , a known as living stones, a reference to the way the apostle peter, the big fisherman described the role of the first faithful in laying the foundations, being the foundations, being the foundations of the house of god . foundations of the house of god. it seems only a few hundred christians are left in gaza now , christians are left in gaza now, fewer every day. as it turns out , in the week when the nativity story tells us about a mother and child , the holy family, and child, the holy family, another mother and child as precious as any others to those who loved them. christians. both were shot dead within the

compound of the holy family church in gaza, where they had been sheltering from the violence in this week, when silent night is sung all over the christian world, the leaders of the nominally christian nafions of the nominally christian nations of the west are mostly silent , too, about the outrage silent, too, about the outrage the latin patriarch of jerusalem said that mother and daughter nahida and seema anton were shot by a sniper in cold blood. he said one was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety, so and more people were shot and wounded as they tried to protect others inside the church compound. no warning was given, no notification was provided. together in prayer with the whole christian community, we express our closeness and condolences to the families affected by this senseless tragedy. at the same time , we tragedy. at the same time, we cannot but express that we are at a loss to comprehend how such an attack could be carried out, even more so as the whole church prepares for christmas. end quote . while the patriarchate quote. while the patriarchate accuses the israel defence force

of the killings, israel disputes , it's that version of events . , it's that version of events. but the mother and child are dead all the same, felled by bullets inside the compound of the holy family church . it's the holy family church. it's hardly as though christians are alone in dying in that place . alone in dying in that place. and at this time, all lives are sacred and tens of thousands of muslims and thousands of jews have been slaughtered, too . in have been slaughtered, too. in recent weeks, all people bleed the same colour here in the west. it's christianity of all the faiths that is browbeaten into watering down its festivals, forgetting the simple and ancient traditions that have brought comfort and hope to billions of people. for more than 2000 years. during the years just past years of lockdown and oppression, censorship and coercion , the censorship and coercion, the leaders of the christian faith have been conspicuous by their silence , at best complicity with silence, at best complicity with the authoritarians, at worst , the authoritarians, at worst, church doors were closed and locked , congregations left to locked, congregations left to fend for themselves . what is a fend for themselves. what is a church without a congregation, after all? just another empty

building . over and over, people building. over and over, people were told christmas didn't matter , that gathering with matter, that gathering with family would just have to be forgotten. that christmas dinner was just another meal. more than ever before. we need christmas and must reclaim it. christmas is at least the best kind of christmas can promise. so much. celebrates the best of what it is to be human and alive. it's all about gathering with loved ones, defying the dark and the cold. it's about the promise of the most optimistic and hopeful gift there is, which is the birth a child. hope of birth of a child. hope of brighter future through the birth of a child is older than christianity itself was predicted , long before the predicted, long before the eventual coming of jesus. the roman poet virgil, who died decades before the birth of jesus christ, decades before the birth of jesus christ , wrote about the jesus christ, wrote about the birth of a boy who would bring a golden age to the world when wickedness would be taken away and the earth freed from fear, the child would receive the life of gods and reign over a world at peace. a precious little hope of that as it turns out, more

and more people have a growing unease about the state of the world, were made anxious and kept anxious, set at each other's throats, when we should be directing our anger at those who worked ceaselessly who have worked ceaselessly to make way . the make the world this way. the book isaiah was written book of isaiah was written around 700 bc by christian believe. virgil was predicting jesus christ, just as isaiah was for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called wonderful. counsellor, the mighty god , the everlasting the mighty god, the everlasting father, the prince of peace , is father, the prince of peace, is it to remember those it matters to remember those words more of the story i've mentioned before, and i will again now align , etched in again now align, etched in defiance, into the wall of a basement by someone hiding from nazis during world war ii. i believe in the son. even when i cannot see it. i believe in love, even when i do not feel it. i believe in god. even when he is silent and it feels like we're all under siege now, not just in the beleaguered little town of bethlehem, but the world

oven town of bethlehem, but the world over. we're on the outskirts of a dark place, all over the world. wars rage, the millions are on the move. people who feel the cold, not just the cold of winter, but of an anti—human ideology that would take everything from us, including each other , including everything each other, including everything that makes christmas so important in all circumstances. it is possible vital to remember the light , to remember that the light, to remember that light and warmth are real. but we can resist in simple and fundamental ways by keeping the lights lit and fires warm wherever is possible . by keeping wherever is possible. by keeping christmas . wherever is possible. by keeping christmas. here's the thing de follows night, winter follows summer and autumn. but winter, even the darkest winter , knows even the darkest winter, knows that the spring is coming, even the darkest winter, knows that the spring is coming , that that the spring is coming, that the spring always comes . joining the spring always comes. joining me tonight is the broadcaster and lawyer andrew eborn. andrew

i've heard from me there. what does christmas mean to you ? does christmas mean to you? >> well, i like the idea of spnng >> well, i like the idea of spring is always around the corner because, as you say, we're living in the darkest ages at the moment, where hope is the one that we hang on one thing that we can hang on to. and christmas, i mean, means all sorts it means. all sorts of things. it means. well, two ronnies sat next well, the two ronnies sat next to a studio, so we to each other at a studio, so we love that sort moment. and love that sort of moment. and it's about family for me. as it's all about family for me. as with you, with your children, it's about getting family together, reunite, fighting that sort over sort of stuff, fighting over those invictus which those soul invictus games, which is monopoly in these is probably monopoly in these days. happens that is probably monopoly in these daysof happens that is probably monopoly in these daysof thing. happens that is probably monopoly in these daysof thing. butippens that is probably monopoly in these daysof thing. but whats that is probably monopoly in these daysof thing. but what i that is probably monopoly in these daysof thing. but what i love|at sort of thing. but what i love about is that sort sense about it is that sort of sense of community and it is, of community again, and it is, as you say, that uniting sense of hope is that it's of hope is that and it's the it's the hope that comes from the birth of a child. >> and i would whatever >> and i would say, whatever your religion, your your religion, whatever your spirituality you know, spirituality or not, you know, the of a child, which is the birth of a child, which is the birth of a child, which is the focus of christmas, is surely optimism made manifest . surely optimism made manifest. >> oh, absolutely. because you're starting from scratch, aren't you? it's a whole new life. whatever could happen life. and whatever could happen with that, life is basically he

hasn't the prejudices hasn't got any of the prejudices that rest of the year might that the rest of the year might have brought. so think it's have brought. so i think it's working that sort of thing. working on that sort of thing. but it back to what but again, it goes back to what i say about hope. hope that i say about hope. you hope that this beginning will bring this new beginning will bring a different era. if you like the consumer. >> forrest, you know, you know, buying everything the sun. buying everything under the sun. you apparent you know, for no apparent reason is the point. no. and is not is not the point. no. and people should not and need not feel excluded by that. and from that, because christmas is about, you know, together i hear what you're saying though. i mean true that the, mean it is it's true that the, the loneliness is, is accentuated for so many people , accentuated for so many people, but we, of us without money, but we, all of us without money, have us to can have the power within us to can feel someone else's loneliness. >> no, absolutely . and i like >> no, absolutely. and i like involving them. >> and i like the idea that at christmas time you knock on your neighbours you not have neighbours who you may not have spoken the rest the spoken to for the rest of the yean spoken to for the rest of the year, just see how they're year, just to see how they're doing. and as you say, it's not about the commercial side. it's doing. and as you say, it's not abo about commercial side. it's doing. and as you say, it's not abo about money. rcial side. it's doing. and as you say, it's not abo about money. it's. side. it's doing. and as you say, it's not abo about money. it's more it's doing. and as you say, it's not abo about money. it's more about not about money. it's more about involvement. hope. involvement. it's about hope. it's that doesn't it's about. and that doesn't cost to a bit of cost anything to a bit of civility, a bit of inclusion in this world has got to be good.

what have have you how what have what have you how have you interpreted of or you interpreted the role of or the of the performance of. >> so called faith leaders in the past? know, from the years past? you know, from the years past? you know, from the england through the years past? you know, from the you england through the years past? you know, from the you know,anland through the years past? you know, from the you know, younnd through the years past? you know, from the you know, you know,ough the years past? you know, from the you know, you know, which the, you know, you know, which is know, the church of is the, you know, the church of the here through the the state here through the through the catholic faith. and you know, the church of scotland, the official, scotland, all of the official, uh, . how think uh, presences. how do you think they responded? and have been seen to, the on seen to respond to, to the on going challenge? >> it's very >> yeah, i think it's very difficult. and every day hear difficult. and every day we hear new scandals. always say, new scandals. they always say, look, comes in on foot look, trust comes in on foot but leaves horseback. and you leaves on horseback. and you have this this very have the vatican this this very week has had a particular scandal with somebody in prison week has had a particular scafive with somebody in prison week has had a particular scafive and] somebody in prison week has had a particular scafive and a;omebody in prison week has had a particular scafive and a halfbody in prison week has had a particular scafive and a half yearsn prison week has had a particular scafive and a half years forrison for five and a half years for embezzlement. and you turn around the more hear around and the more you hear about scandals, about these scandals, more worrying the church worrying it is. but the church is a physical place, as you is not a physical place, as you said in your brilliant monologue, actually monologue, it's actually the community. people community. it's the people that make . it's the people make a church. it's the people that sort of that build that sort of community. so i think they are we some troubled leaders, we have some troubled leaders, i think, just religion, think, across not just religion, but politics various but across politics and various other think what other things. and i think what we need to do is get back to those common things, those those common sense things, those values that we hold so dear. and

sometimes leaders can take sometimes the leaders can take us direction. sometimes the leaders can take us and direction. sometimes the leaders can take us and don't direction. sometimes the leaders can take us and don't you rection. sometimes the leaders can take us and don't you think1. sometimes the leaders can take us and don't you think some of >> and don't you think some of it because they don't really it is because they don't really stand believe in stand for or believe in anything, that that, that, anything, and that that, that, um, absence is there with um, that absence is there with politicians and it's there with faith leaders that they're not speaking from the heart and standing up and declaring what they what they mean and what they what they mean and what they say. >> right? >> right? >> without running it first through some sort of public relations filter to see what the on going consequences will be for the position . for the position. >> you're absolutely right. i think the problem at the moment, nealis think the problem at the moment, neal, is we live in soundbite think the problem at the moment, nea wherez live in soundbite think the problem at the moment, nea where politicianssoundbite think the problem at the moment, nea where politicians willdbite think the problem at the moment, nea where politicians will give age where politicians will give you soundbite of you a little soundbite of whatever and that seems whatever it is, and that seems to no depth that. and the to be no depth in that. and the problem with politics is they're in the business of getting re—elected. by its very re—elected. so by its very nature, terme nature, it's not long terme because talking because you're not talking about the aspects the fundamental aspects of society, really society, the bits that really bind us for me are bind us together for me are important, and it's irrelevant about the politics about the religion, the politics or otherwise. >> thanks for that, andrew. >> oh, thanks for that, andrew. after the break, which is upon us already, be joined by us already, i will be joined by the layman, the british catholic layman, author commentator gavin

author and commentator gavin ashenden. he's also formerly a priest of the church of england and subsequently a continuing anglican bishop, all of which puts him in the perfect position to outline the importance of christmas for us the christmas for us in the religious calendar. don't go anywhere

radio. >> welcome back to deal. oliver live. merry christmas. i'm going to say that again because i like heanng to say that again because i like hearing myself say that merry christmas. christmas eve, christmas. it is christmas eve, tomorrow is christmas day, and it's time to be celebrated all it's a time to be celebrated all around i'm joined now around the world. i'm joined now by gavin ashenden to talk about the significance of christmas. a former priest of the church of england, more recently converted to the catholic faith. good evening gavin. merry christmas to you , neil. to you, neil. >> merry christmas to you and to those who are sharing this moment with us. >> absolutely. it seems to me,

gavin, that it has never mattered more to celebrate christmas , to keep christmas, to christmas, to keep christmas, to mark the day. would you agree ? mark the day. would you agree? >> i would, something's happened in the last few decades, and certainly during the course of my lifetime, which is meant that the two things human beings need meaning and hope, and perhaps compassion would be three. which reminds me, the monty python inquisition joke. but anyway , inquisition joke. but anyway, three things that we need have have disappeared. they've been sucked out of life, and they're all three things meaning, hope and compassion. at christmas. provide human beings with. and i think we need them today more than ever. >> and christmas, the heart of christmas, the birth of the child, is, i would say, is hope and optimism made manifest ? and optimism made manifest? >> i think it is being a human being is quite difficult. where do we come from ? where are we do we come from? where are we going to? how are we meant to navigate the struggle with good

and evil and hope and hopelessness? if there's a god, we need him to make himself tangible. he needs to be available to people who are more than more than just the mystics, more than the intellectuals. he needs to be available to, to every human being and braking into and space in human into time and space in human form is a very good way of doing it. and really worked quite it. and it's really worked quite well . well. >> you mentioned light and dark andideas >> you mentioned light and dark and ideas of good and evil. so many people write to me real letters that arrive in the mail about their anxiety and their fear about the present situation in the world, and a sense, more than anything else, that something, somewhere is badly wrong , but that they have relied wrong, but that they have relied more and more on their faith to get them through it. i i can only imagine that you empathise with that feeling completely . with that feeling completely. >> i do, i mean, looking back over history, being a human being is quite a precarious exercise. um i think in, in the

last few decades, there's been a sense that somehow we could rely on ourselves, modernity, progress, technology . we could progress, technology. we could protect ourselves to some extent. we've discovered that the protection doesn't work very well, and we need to look for different resources and resources that are less tangible. you might say more spiritual, um, uh, more metaphysical . and these are what metaphysical. and these are what faith provide . they, they faith provide. they, they provide a way of interpreting what's happening to us as human beings. and and our society's not been very good at it. we've not been very good at it. we've not been very good at it. we've not been spiritually not been very spiritually literate. we don't understand religious language. and one of the things christmas does the things that christmas does is us again that the is it reminds us again that the kind of language we need to work out to be human being is out how to be human being is available we've just got available to us. we've just got to not got to do anything. but it's for to take and it's there for us to take and receive and use it if we want it. >> andrew eborn that idea that that loss of that literacy, that the loss of the language, the inability or unwillingness to express , you know, the thirst express, you know, the thirst that from the soul doth arise and all the rest of it. what do

you make of that? >> well, it is interesting, and i think it's a very valid point, people, at the moment we need a sense of purpose in life. >> and i think without that sense of purpose, it's going to get very difficult. i get very, very difficult. i always power always advocate about the power of intelligence. they of artificial intelligence. they talk jobs and talk about taking over jobs and enhancing lives so enhancing people's lives so people more leisure people will have more leisure time. question this time. the question is this though have leisure though they have more leisure time, they going to do time, what are they going to do with it? and i think that's the real i'm very interested real issue. i'm very interested in well, he in your guests as well, he converted recently in your introduction, talked introduction, you talked to catholicism. um, i'll be fascinated to fascinated if he's happy to share that. why made that share that. why he made that conversion and that's conversion and whether that's changed his view of life. >> gavin, what do you what >> well, gavin, what do you what do respond? do you respond? >> very happy to answer, >> i'd be very happy to answer, because spend quite a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, spend quite a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a pend quite a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a lot d quite a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a lot ofjuite a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a lot of my; a of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a lot of my life of >> i'd be very happy to answer, bectime, a lot of my life being my time, a lot of my life being being prejudiced against being quite prejudiced against catholicism. quite lot being quite prejudiced against ca disinfo m. quite lot being quite prejudiced against ca disinfo nation quite lot being quite prejudiced against ca disinfo nation out quite lot being quite prejudiced against ca disinfo nation out there. lot of disinfo nation out there. and, also some, some, some and, and also some, some, some bad history. when simply bad history. when i simply discovered that what roman discovered that what the roman catholic church taught was catholic church had taught was true, and one of the things that it's got in its repertoire , so it's got in its repertoire, so to speak, is a lot of very holy

people, an enormous amount of saintliness that has changed society wherever it's been. and then they invented the schools and the hospitals and the hospices and the universities . hospices and the universities. it all came out of catholicism. the whole of western culture did really . um, and as there's really. um, and as there's a crisis now in western culture where we're actually involved in, um, in destroying ourselves, where there's an anti—life thing, anti—life in the womb and anti—life at euthanasia , anti—life at euthanasia, anti—life at euthanasia, anti—life as we allow our children to, um, to destruct their capacity for reproduction . their capacity for reproduction. um, it's so catholicisme um, as i looked at it more carefully , i looked at it more carefully, as liberal protestantism began to evaporate in front of my eyes. um began as i tested it to be true, and i thought i better grab it fast while there's any time left, and i'm very glad i did . did. >> how have you been? reassure aad then by the by the performance, if that's the right word of leaders within the within, within the catholic faith. because i have looked on

at faith leaders across the piece and been disappointed . did piece and been disappointed. did you find it? you find it? definitely no , not at all. definitely no, not at all. >> no. i think they've behaved appallingly. um, i mean, the first thing i did was to read a history of bad popes so that i wouldn't be let down or disappointed. i think what has to distinguish between between people who are, um, the people who running organisation who are running the organisation and, uh, the, the thing and, uh, and the, the thing itself, the thing itself has an organic life in it, which goes on producing holiness and transformed lives. the people who run it are sometimes good. they're sometimes bad. at the moment, i think they lack courage . and i'm afraid all the courage. and i'm afraid all the religious leaders appear to have drunk the kool—aid of secular society , perhaps to get approval society, perhaps to get approval , because i think they're frightened . um, but but what frightened. um, but but what today requires is courage of people, for people who say they can see clearly. we certainly need leaders to help, uh, facilitate the organisation who have got courage and deep wells . have got courage and deep wells. we don't have enough of those at

the moment, but the but the project itself has to do with jesus. um, if the catholic church in particular was a human construct, it would have failed ten times a century over the last 20 centuries. but it isn't a human construct construct. and jesus has kept it alive, mainly through his own life, which he's shared with people who want to cooperate . we we're tempted to cooperate. we we're tempted to try and use power to put things right . um, try and use power to put things right. um, but we. but but try and use power to put things right . um, but we. but but power right. um, but we. but but power isn't the way forward. it's the it's cooperation with compassion with the god of compassion. and that's that's a kind of like is a dance. it's a relationship. it's all to do with the baby. the baby grows up. we discover the baby is not just a baby, but a saviour. not just a saviour, but but the creator of the universe. and we start at dance with him, not even an institutional church can crush that. >> do you feel hope this christmas eve, this , this day of christmas eve, this, this day of all days ? is that is that hope all days? is that is that hope still there for you ? still there for you?

>> it is. but but my hope is directed in a particular way. my hopeis directed in a particular way. my hope is directed partly in response to the people you said who are writing to you. why are they a sign of hope? because they've run out of patience with they've run out of patience with the status quo. they've run out of patience with a half lies and the lies of consumerism. they've run out of patience with all the soft untruths they've been told. and want to know now how to and they want to know now how to live. it matters essentially , live. it matters essentially, it's the old religious language of how do i, how am i saved? people ran up to jesus all the way through the gospels saying , way through the gospels saying, how do i get out of this? how do i this? how i i get beyond this? how do i manage this? and to everyone he came up to, gave a particular came up to, he gave a particular answer that met their need and as a type of us meets our needs too. so for me , my hope is when too. so for me, my hope is when i pick up the gospels and i read them and read the life of jesus, i go, them and read the life of jesus, l 90, wp them and read the life of jesus, i go, yep, with him this can be overcome and i can be healed. hatred can be forgiven, the cheek can be turned, violence can be subverted by love. the

despair is overcome by, by, by, by hope and compassion . an by hope and compassion. an absolutely there is hope. but it's all to do with him and not so much with us. >> a perfect message of hope. thank you so much, gavin , and thank you so much, gavin, and merry christmas to you and yours i >> -- >> thank 5mm >> thank you to and you and to everyone listening. god bless you here we are upon another break, after which i'll be joined by american author laurel gillen, whose novel a bellwether christmas tells the story of the history of christmas . history of christmas. >> don't go anywhere

>> you're listening to gb news radio . radio. >> welcome back to neil oliver live . on christmas eve, we've live. on christmas eve, we've had a look at the religious significance and importance of christmas . significance and importance of christmas. now it's time to contemplate the, uh, the history, uh, the way in which

historians have contemplated that story and really start to understand and all that is behind christmas celebrations and what it was like to celebrate in years gone by. laurel gillen , novelist, joins laurel gillen, novelist, joins me now . hello, laurel. laurel gillen, novelist, joins me now . hello, laurel . hello, neil. >> well, it's great to be here. >> well, it's great to be here. >> merry christmas to you and yours. now, i understand that all of this sprung from a trip that you made to italy with your grandmother. can you tell me about that trip and what it was that you experience most? well well, i took my grandmother to italy , and we were with an italy, and we were with an ecumenical group that was travelling all around, uh , the travelling all around, uh, the rome and central italy. >> and i really fell in love with the stories about the early franciscans and i was already kind of mad about the medieval times. anyway uh, so when i got back home, i started doing an incredible amount of research into that period , the early 13th into that period, the early 13th century. um, but, uh, i an adult

novel. i was thinking of never appeared . and then what happened appeared. and then what happened in the years following? we adopted a son, and he happened to be very, very good with animals and loved them. and, uh, little by little, we acquired two sheep, two donkeys and horse . um, and then in, uh, then, you know , two decades later, all of know, two decades later, all of a sudden, i got this idea for this, uh, novel set in the 13th century, and it would use my knowledge of the early franciscan history as well as my knowledge of farm animals at the top of the show. >> uh, laurel, i mentioned saint francis as the man behind the first production of a nativity play, so to speak. yes what? what was it you know, what was it about? because i'm interested. because i have my own my own affection for francis. and i wonder what it was about his story that inspired you ? inspired you? >> well, i just, uh, you know, francis is a larger than life character. he had such a flair

for the dramatic, and he was just so , so earnest and so, um, just so, so earnest and so, um, committed to, uh, this vision he had of living life in a in a as a poor and humble way and helping others. he's and plus, you know, the fact that he was had this affinity with animals also makes him very endearing to me . um, and i just thought that me. um, and i just thought that the whole everything going on at that time was in the church and everything, the history of the church and everything at that point was also very interesting. and he, you know, he really sparked, you know, a revival in, in the church . in the church. >> andrew, you mentioned , uh, >> andrew, you mentioned, uh, earlier in our conversation. yes that your consumerism. yes is part of the a problem , you know, part of the a problem, you know, because it blinds everyone to what christmas is actually about. and i've always been attracted by saint francis and his his notions about poverty. yes is there. yes. is there

something in that message about, you know, it doesn't have to be about what you own, what you can buy that you can. you can find your way to peace with without a doubt. >> and actually, people who are poor don't necessarily know that they're poor. and until you start seeing the massive people showing their in showing off their wealth in your face the to the garage face and the dash to the garage late christmas eve to buy late on the christmas eve to buy a present for someone who just suddenly something under the suddenly got something under the tree. about tree. it shouldn't be about that. the story about the that. i love the story about the animals. i up with lots animals. i i grew up with lots of animals. we had 18 horses and dogs. you know, same dogs. we had, you know, same sort of dogs. we had our irish wolfhounds and things like that, right two little right down to the two little ones. it's a glorious thing. ones. and it's a glorious thing. i going back nature, i think going back to nature, the in life, you the simple things in life, you can pleasure it. can get real pleasure from it. it doesn't to be about it doesn't have to be about materialistic things. a lot. >> do you it's so >> why do you think it's so effective for all of us? think effective for all of us? i think children, especially way in children, especially the way in which undoubtedly which animals are undoubtedly folded the nativity story, folded into the nativity story, you know, every child learns that the birth of the birth of jesus is, is accompanied by and happensin jesus is, is accompanied by and happens in the presence of

animals and shepherds who care for animals. why is it why does that bring something special to this time of year ? this time of year? >> i think it brings something special because of what happened. 800 years ago. i mean, there's that same reaction. you see, that the king of the universe has humbled himself so much that he's become this helpless , poor babe and he's helpless, poor babe and he's lying in an animal trough , which lying in an animal trough, which is what, you know, a feeding trough, which is what a manger is . uh, and trough, which is what a manger is. uh, and he's surrounded by these lowliest of creatures , these lowliest of creatures, which are animals and i think it just when the people of greccio, italy , saw that 800 years ago, italy, saw that 800 years ago, it just it just mesmerised them. they they just felt this connection , uh, to god and connection, uh, to god and understanding . i think, um , of, understanding. i think, um, of, of the kind of sacrifice it took and the gift of love that, that it represents and, and i think

that has never stopped since then, for 800 years, we've been doing living nativities and nativity sets because seeing that , you know, poor nativity sets because seeing that, you know, poor humble setting really , uh, i think setting really, uh, i think really brings it home. the gifts message really home to us. i i said earlier in the show, laurel and i'll say it again, i often feel year on year , christmas feel year on year, christmas feels watered down, especially in the west. >> it's significance, the meaning eroded . people are even meaning eroded. people are even discouraged sometimes from using the word christmas and they're encouraged for bizarre reasons to talk about the, you know, the winter season and to offer season's greetings and so on and so on. do you agree that it's often christmas that feels like the festival that is least respected in many ways , i think respected in many ways, i think that's something that's been happening for a long time. >> um, because back in history, i mean, even in the middle ages, the, the, the, the church was kind of struggling with the fact

that it had adopted all these, these, um, practices from these, these, um, practices from , um, you know, the romans and the celts and the and, and the vikings and, and also a lot of this was, was , uh, you know, this was, was, uh, you know, barely christian. uh, so and today, you know, we have the same thing. it's like the commercialism and, and everything else. we still have to, uh, make an effort to really, i think , um, you know, really, i think, um, you know, come to that christmas message in our hearts every, every christmas season . christmas season. >> i always want i want to end with my guests at this time, particularly on an optimistic note, what are your hopes for christmas , for yourself and for christmas, for yourself and for the wider community this year ? the wider community this year? >> oh, uh, you know, you always say , oh, you want christmas , say, oh, you want christmas, peace and things like that, but i really think just a better understanding of what francis was , was all about. was, was all about. >> and his love for man , kind

>> and his love for man, kind and for god and for all god's creatures. um, one of the things francis said near the end of his life is that he wished, you know, back then, you know , he know, back then, you know, he loved the birds and songbirds in particular. back then, they were often used for food. and he used to say, well, i wish everyone would feed the birds on christmas . so that would, christmas. so that would, i guess, be my wish this christmas season. in honour of the 800th anniversary of , uh, the nativity anniversary of, uh, the nativity scene , a lovely little girl in scene, a lovely little girl in novelist, author of a bellwether christmas. >> thank you so much for bringing that message to us this evening. >> thank you. merry christmas angela, it's it is an optimistic. >> yes. an optimistic message. >> yes. an optimistic message. >> well, i love it. >> well, i love it. >> it's very good. feed the birds because they sometimes feed us work on that basis charging towards another break. >> one the evening >> the last one of the evening i'll afterwards by i'll be joined afterwards by professor schollhammer professor ralph schollhammer to discuss the history of the christmas tree. don't go anywhere else .

welcome back to christmas eve, neil oliver. live now , there's neil oliver. live now, there's always a debate about whether or not to have a real christmas tree or an artificial christmas tree. and it happens in households up and down the country. year and year out. country. year in and year out. but one thing worth contemplating worth at contemplating worth looking at is history christmas is the history of the christmas tree i'm delighted in tree itself. so i'm delighted in that to joined by a that context to be joined by a familiar face. a friend of this show, professor ralph schollhammer, to discuss the history of the christmas tree, where we now put our gifts in the certainly in the in the in the certainly in the in the in the british tradition of it all. ralph. good evening. merry christmas to you, neil, and merry christmas to you . merry christmas to you. >> this is the highlight of my career with you in career being with you in christmas talking christmas eve and talking about the christmas i think the christmas tree. uh, i think i can put my commentary career to after this. to rest after this. >> oh, bless you ralph. merry

christmas to you too. we've we've we've spoken several times over the years. >> always about serious issues. all all manner of political, uh , all all manner of political, uh, stories, but never about christmas. so we can we can put right that wrong now and i and it was, it was a delight for me to learn that you've given a lot of thought to nordic christmas traditions and, and the, the advent of the christmas tree in particular. how come ? particular. how come? >> um, well, i have no choice. uh, as your viewers will be happy to find out. this all the cool christmas traditions come from people with german accents. so from the krampus to the christmas tree, right? it all started in germany. um, and it's really actually a nice story. supposedly kind of the first christmas trees. uh came up in, in germany or what, then later became germany in the 15th, 16th century. and one story i really like is that martin luther, like apparently he once saw the, you know, the stars above, and he was so moved by it that he said, wouldn't it be nice ? kind of wouldn't it be nice? kind of when have evergreens in

when we have these evergreens in our put lights on it. our houses to put lights on it. and that supposedly was the beginning of the christmas tree and putting on the tree. and putting candles on the tree. now, i don't know if, if henry the and the beginning of the eighth and the beginning of the, church had the, the anglican church had a similar story about being, you know , moved by the by by the know, moved by the by by the skies . but i know, moved by the by by the skies. but i think it's a, you know, given the protestant reformation, everything. think reformation, everything. i think it's nice story. it's a very, very nice story. and uh, what i really like and it's, uh, what i really like about it's the greatest about it. it's the greatest story of cultural appropriation that ever happened, because . that ever happened, because. right, the idea of the christmas tree comes from the solstitial . tree comes from the solstitial. right. uh, 22nd, 21st of december is the last really short day. and then finally days get longer and you kind of have this very nice way how christianity adopted it and turned it into something of its own a way ultimately own in a way that ultimately worked for everybody. so i think the story of the christmas tree is politically, if we want to go down road, probably down this road, it's probably more than one would think. >> and even it is interesting, isn't it? how pragmatic isn't it? how very pragmatic christianity was in so many ways

in in its attempts to bring and to and to map on to older and established traditions. >> and you look back at the pagan traditions and so on and so forth. >> i think some of the very first christmas tree, which was artificial, actually used to have feathers dyed green, have geese feathers dyed green, i think on that set of basis. and i've heard different people have been attributed with the story about seeing the stars through the and decide through the trees and decide about everything, through the trees and decide about from erything, through the trees and decide about from charles, to everybody from charles darwin to the various people that ralph mentioned is mentioned as well. um, it is fascinating he's that. fascinating how he's done that. it's same with mistletoe, which is about fertility and how is all about fertility and how that on that sort that sort of worked on that sort of basis. lot of it goes of basis. but a lot of it goes back to pagan times and celebrating that sort era. celebrating that sort of era. >> ralph, something. >> ralph, or something. >> ralph, or something. >> something very primal >> there's something very primal and though, and fundamental, though, isn't there, on there, about focusing on something that's evergreen. you know, sense going know, you can sense going back through millennia, through the millennia, the efforts that people made in the darkest coldest darkest of days and the coldest of nights to look for signs that life would return and so to focus on the tree that remains alive in you know, when everything else has died . you everything else has died. you can see why people would would

fix on the conifer , the fir tree i >> -- >> oh, i -_ >> oh, i got absolutely. >> oh, i got absolutely. >> i mean, and you see something else, you see how much human life depended on the seasons. so if we really want this christmas kind of reflect a little bit on our age and on our current condition, i think one of the things we discussed over things when we discussed over the year on your show, these issues so is we live issues so often is we live in this great position. in this great position. we're in this great position. we're in this great position that we are no longer depending the no longer depending on the seasons can go to the seasons right? you can go to the supermarket you can supermarket and you can have, i don't know, a pineapple for christmas longer the christmas and it's no longer the case we are completely case that we are completely quote unquote subservient to the to the whims of nature. and, uh, you know, many reasons for this is technological processes, the use of energy are all the things that have on people's minds that have been on people's minds over the last 24 months. so there is a connection there. and i all your viewers a merry, i wish all your viewers a merry, merry christmas i merry christmas right. and i hope many will have hope that many of them will have a christmas and will go a happy christmas and will go with, spirits with, you know, their spirits lifted with new energy into lifted and with new energy into the year. think you're the new year. but i think you're absolutely if we look at

absolutely right. if we look at the christmas tree, as you just mentioned, this idea that finally, the days finally, right, the days will get or that spring get long or that finally spring is honzon get long or that finally spring is horizon . uh, and is on the horizon. uh, and that's a positive message. and that's a positive message. and that this day that we nowadays, in this day and no longer depend so and age, no longer depend so much of nature and much on the whims of nature and the really the seasons. it's really something upon to something to ponder upon and to be grateful. i mean, there's a lot wrong with modernity. there's could be there's a lot that could be different. there's a lot that could be better. but some things actually over actually have gotten better over the decades or the last the last decades or the last centuries, you want. centuries, if you want. and i think it's worthwhile to in a positive this positive way, ponder about this as do you sense, as well. um, do you sense, ralph, uh, that people are more determined than ever to celebrate this year? >> i mean, obviously there are people struggling in in unfamiliar ways. germany you know, is struggling for energy . know, is struggling for energy. you know, people have been cutting down old growth forests just for firewood, for warmth and all of the rest of it. do you think that the hardship, uh, ironically inspires in people, the determination to look back at the old traditions about lights and fires and evergreen

trees to get them through the darkness ? darkness? >> i hope so, i hope so , i think >> i hope so, i hope so, i think a revival of those traditions and the way we look at life that's connected to it, would be a good thing, even if it's only once or twice a year, right? i understand if this is not something that happens every day, but i think that would be a good thing. i think you see a little bit of revival of this, particularly in the german speaking forest and speaking world, the forest and the trees always had a very specific significance. goes the trees always had a very specito significance. goes the trees always had a very specito the1ificance. goes the trees always had a very specito the 1ifica that goes the trees always had a very specito the1ifica that our goes back to the idea that our history began defeating the history began with defeating the romans teutoburg forest. romans and the teutoburg forest. so among the trees, so basically, among the trees, our if you our nation was born, if you want, at least that's one of the myths that's also surrounding, uh, mythology . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink mythology . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink we mythology . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink we all mythology . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink we all senselogy . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink we all sense that . but yes, myths that's also surrounding, uthink we all sense that the it yes, i think we all sense that the last two years or the last in particular was different. there is something happening on the horizon. so i think there is a sense among people that the next year the coming years will be year or the coming years will be very different from the preceding ones, and i hope that kind one message also to your kind of one message also to your viewers, into this new viewers, let's get into this new as warriors. as happy warriors. the challenges great. um, the

challenges are great. um, the things that we have to overcome are significant. the changes that we want see are that we want to see are substantial. think we substantial. but i think we should lose hope. we should should not lose hope. we should not faith, we should not lose faith, and we should not lose faith, and we should not lose, particularly as the british a certain sense of british in a certain sense of humour. be serious humour. right let's be serious about issues. but be happy about these issues. but be happy warriors i think this warriors about it. i think this is that would be my new is probably that would be my new year's myself and year's message to myself and also viewers and your also to your viewers and to your listeners for fantastic ralph. >> happy warriors, merry christmas to you, to you and yours. thank you so much for everything that you've done for, uh, for neil oliver live in the year past. and i look forward to , conversing you again , , uh, conversing with you again, uh, in the new year. but thank you for now, ralph you so much for now, ralph schollhammer . schollhammer. >> merry neil. see >> merry christmas, neil. see you soon. you 500“. >> you soon. >> see you soon. lovely message there . happy warriors, happy warriors. >> we do that together. we >> we could do that together. we feel good, don't i mean, we feel good, don't we? i mean, we talk peaceful new talk about having a peaceful new yeah talk about having a peaceful new year. we need a peaceful year. boy, do we need a peaceful new year. we do. but. >> but that idea that of focusing light, focusing on focusing on light, focusing on warmth, focusing on the evergreen and the knowledge that, you know, after the shortest day , right. the days

shortest day, right. the days get longer and the and the sun and the spring and all signs of life will come back to us, and we should embrace, without a doubt, as you say, the key to us is about hope. >> let's all hope. >> let's all have hope. >> let's all have hope. >> absolutely. let's always all have hope. thank you much to have hope. thank you so much to my panellist andrew my brilliant panellist andrew eborn. of guests this eborn. to all of my guests this evening. all that remains for me is to wish every single one of you happiest, merriest is to wish every single one of yo christmases st, merriest is to wish every single one of yo christmases and merriest is to wish every single one of yo christmases and the1erriest is to wish every single one of yo christmases and the most;t of christmases and the most optimistic and hopeful of happy new years. see you . soon. new years. see you. soon. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news . weather on gb news. >> hello there , i'm greg >> hello there, i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather. it's going to stay unsettled through the festive period, though it will turn calm and drier as we move into boxing day. low pressure currently dominating the weather pattern, bringing

further rain for many through christmas day . but a brief christmas day. but a brief respite and that ridge of high pressure bringing dry, sunny weather for many on boxing day this evening, a mixed picture out there. outbreaks of rain across southern counties of england and wales. showery rain as well. northern ireland, northern england between as well. northern ireland, northspellsgland between as well. northern ireland, north spells under between as well. northern ireland, north spells under the etween as well. northern ireland, north spells under the clear] clear spells under the clear skies of scotland. turning chilly tonight. some frost and ice elsewhere generally staying mild and those winds just easing after what has been a very blustery and mild christmas eve , blustery and mild christmas eve, christmas day gets off to a bright start . a chilly start bright start. a chilly start across northeast scotland, elsewhere quite cloudy elsewhere generally quite cloudy and out area of outbreaks and this out area of outbreaks of rain pushes north and eastwards across england and wales the day, turning wales through the day, turning heavy rain bumping heavy at times. rain bumping into turn to snow into scotland will turn to snow over the higher ground above, about 200m 5 to 10cm is possible, giving a white christmas here. but elsewhere wet christmas mild as well and breezy temperatures in double figures after a cold start. boxing day morning. it's looking much drier and brighter. plenty of sunny spells to come, but

signs of the next weather system starting to move in across devon and cornwall, bringing outbreaks of rain here and temperatures a little lower for many. but mild air returns as it becomes wet and windy through into wednesday i >> -- >> that 5mm >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers , sponsors of boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on gb news . weather on gb news. >> i'm michelle dewberry and i'm not here to tell you what to think. i'd much rather hear what you have to say , so send in your you have to say, so send in your opinions to gb views at gb news. com keep them clean and you never know . i might com keep them clean and you never know. i might read com keep them clean and you never know . i might read them never know. i might read them out with my panel here on dewbs& co we debate, we get stuck into the issues of the day on a show where all views are welcome, especially yours. gb news the people's channel, britain's news channel.

>> don't again . >> don't again. hello . all hello , all. hello. all hello, all. >> hello. who is it? >> hello. who is it? >> we're here for the show. what show? uh, we're filming a television show . this is show? uh, we're filming a television show. this is a medieval castle , you silly man. medieval castle, you silly man. it's for singing and sword fighting . it's not for some fighting. it's not for some so—called television program, but we made arrangements . but we made arrangements.

strange person. i am bored of you. you're your auntie . soiled you. you're your auntie. soiled her knickers and your mother was a vacuum cleaner. who her knickers and your mother was a vacuum cleaner . who let her knickers and your mother was a vacuum cleaner. who let us in? i spit on your gonads , you i spit on your gonads, you quarter witted son of a cabbage hunter . is quarter witted son of a cabbage hunter. is there someone else up there that i can speak to ? go there that i can speak to? go boil your bottom . can you throw boil your bottom. can you throw him off the ramparts , please? him off the ramparts, please? all right . now all right. now. all right