kids do it. he's going to use sanctions, including things like restricting driving licenses and finance . good idea or not. also, finance. good idea or not. also, the bank of england , they've the bank of england, they've held interest rates. was that a right decision or not.7 fascinating. kwasi kwarteng makes his debut on the show tonight . what a great day for tonight. what a great day for it. also keir starmer last night talking tough on landlords. he says he's going to stop the bidding wars when it comes to private rentals. somebody tell me how. and let me ask you this why. as we run up to the general election, have we got muslim groups making demands? on one hand, hindu groups making demands on another? we've had one candidate i've heard .of saying he's running for the black and the brown people. what's going on? why is sectarianism entering the general election campaign? you tell me . yes, indeed. all of tell me. yes, indeed. all of that and more before 7:00. but first, tonight's 6:00. news.

>> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb newsroom. your top story this hour. opposition leaders are accusing the tories of being corrupt after a string of being corrupt after a string of people with links to the party are caught up in allegations of betting on the timing of the general election. four people are being investigated by the gambling commission, including laura saunders, the wife of the tories campaign director craig williams, another conservative candidate, has also admitted to an error of judgement after placing a bet on when the election would take place. prime minister rishi sunak says any lawbreakers will be booted out of the party, but lib dem leader sir ed davey says the conservatives aren't learning from their mistakes. >> people know the outcome of something and they bet on it. i think that's immoral , and i think that's immoral, and i don't think that looks i think it's right , don't think that looks i think it's right, and too often in

this parliament, we've seen the conservative party, its only members of the conservative party looking like they're in it for themselves, not for in for pubuc for themselves, not for in for public service. and what's in the best, best interests of the country ? country? >> meanwhile, rishi sunak's attempting to move on from the scandal , accusing labour of scandal, accusing labour of planning to change every rule they to can stay in power if they to can stay in power if they win the general election. the prime minister is urging the voters not to sleepwalk into the polls on the 4th of july. speaking at the launch of the conservative manifesto for wales, he warned against falling into labour's trap. >> this is a man who tried to overturn the result of the brexit referendum , who twice brexit referendum, who twice urged everyone to make jeremy corbyn prime minister, and who ran on a series of pledges to be labour leader that he cynically then abandoned my friends because he has such a past, he doesn't deserve to decide your future . future. >> and sir keir starmer says

jeremy corbyn would have made a better prime minister than boris johnson . he was facing a johnson. he was facing a grilling from members of the pubuc grilling from members of the public alongside rishi sunak, sir ed davey and john swinney. at last night's bbc question time leaders special in york. the labour leader says he's now changed the party and claims it's clear to see the chaos that happens under a conservative government >> the choice at the last election before the electorate was not a good choice. you had bofis was not a good choice. you had boris johnson , who won and then boris johnson, who won and then three years later was thrown out of parliament for breaking the rules that jeremy corbyn, who is now expelled from the labour party. that's why i have been so determ and to change the labour party and to make sure that that change. labour party puts forward a credible manifesto for growth so that at this election there will be a real choice between carrying on with the failure of the last 14 years, or turning the page and rebuilding the country. >> in other news, a seven month

old baby girl who was mauled to death by a dog inside her family home in coventry has been named . home in coventry has been named. ellie doherty suffered serious head injuries after being bitten by the pet dog and died in hospital last sunday. the dog, registered as a belgian malinois , which is considered not dangerous, has been removed from the house and humanely destroyed . some news from devon, where a schoolboy has been found guilty of attempted murder at exeter crown court . the boy, who can't crown court. the boy, who can't be named for legal reasons, attacked two sleeping students and a teacher with hammers at blundell's school in tiverton. the 16 year old admitted assaulting the two boys and the housemaster , but claimed he was housemaster, but claimed he was sleepwalking. the metropolitan police has referred itself to the police watchdog over contact between officers and a 20 year old man accused of the murder of a woman on a bournemouth seafront. nasa ansari, from croydon, has been charged with the murder of 34 year old amy

grey at durley chine beach in may and the attempted murder of lianne miles at the same location. in wales, workers at tata steel have announced an indefinite strike from the 8th of july in protest over the company's plans to close blast furnaces and cut 2800 jobs. unite who represent more than 1500 members in south wales, says this is the first uk steel worker strike in over 40 years. tata is transitioning to greener steel production, but workers argue it sacrifices their jobs and community. and a gang of cyber criminals has published sensitive nhs data online. stolen from a blood testing company. overnight, a russian cyber crime group known as kylin shared nearly 400gb of private information, including patient names, dates of birth, nhs numbers and blood test results. the health service is investigating the full extent of the breach and for the latest

stories, sign up to gb news. by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common alerts. now it's back to . michelle. >> thank you very much for that. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight on dewbs & co alongside my panel. dewbs& co alongside my panel. we've got a new face to the panel tonight. everyone we've got the former chancellor of the exchequer, kwasi kwarteng. and alongside him, we've got the former labour minister, bill rammell. good evening gents , to rammell. good evening gents, to both of you. you're very welcome to the show. you haven't done this one before i haven't. you'll have to tell me he's done a lot of other gb news programmes, so you can tell me at the end which one is his favourite. i'm sure it's going to be dewbs & co anyway. you know to be dewbs& co anyway. you know the drill. it's not just about us three. it is about you guys at home as well. what's on your mind tonight? you can get in touch with me all the usual ways. you can email gb views @gbnews. com you can go to the

website gbnews.com/yoursay or of course you can tweet or x me wherever you are. however you're watching or listening, you are very, very welcome tonight, look, let's cast our mind back, shall we? probably about 24 hours ago or so, rishi sunak was grilled on national service. let's take a look. >> have a set of sanctions and incentives, and we will look at the models that are existing around europe to get the appropriate mix of those. there's a range of different opfions there's a range of different options that exist henri paul there's all sorts of things that people do across europe, whether that's looking at driving licences, other access to finance , all sorts of other finance, all sorts of other things. there's a range of things. there's a range of things and we will have a royal commission look at all of those, come back to the government and recommend what the appropriate mix of incentives and sanctions is. >> now, that has made a lot of headunes >> now, that has made a lot of headlines today. that comment kwasi mixed headlines, i've got to say, and a lot of them have been quite critical. where are you firstly, on this policy ? you firstly, on this policy? >> i think it's a good idea. i think you've got communities right across our country who have very different traditions , have very different traditions, as lots of people coming from other parts of the world. and i think national service is a really good idea to bring people

together to have community cohesion, national cohesion, and actually to instil our young people with a sense of service and also a belonging sense of belonging to the national community. i think it's a good idea. as the prime minister said, it's an operates in a lot of countries in europe. >> so you back it is it a cynical ploy to get the older people to vote for the tories? >> look, there are lots of reasons why you push policies. i'm not going to get into the motives of that. why as an idea? because i think you've got to look at the policy and see whether it's a good policy or not. you can't guess motive. you can't say, well, he's doing this because of that. >> well, there must be a motive behind it because no one's just in an election campaign just randomly going to make stuff up. >> they must be objective, be cynical, and let's try and examine the proposal on its merits. and i've always thought that some form of community service, national service, is a goodidea service, national service, is a good idea to bring communities together and to instil jul a sense of. >> yeah, i'm not being cynical at the end of the day, everyone

from all different parties, coloured stripes, everybody is looking say, right, what is going to be, what are going to be the vote winners for this party to get us across the line? because ultimately everybody wants to win power. so that's what i'm interested. >> policy. i mean, you know, this is a thing about our media today and our culture is that we're obsessed with the kind of, you know, the horse race of politics. let's look at policies that can actually help the uk. and i think national service is a good idea. it's a good policy so it can bring people together. >> let's let's look at the policy. i'm not exaggerating. i think this is a complete dog's breakfast two days before the forgive me, two days before the announcement, the tory defence minister said we've got no plans whatsoever to bring in national service because it would do more harm than good. this is a crude naked pitch to the over 65 seconds who are attracted to reform . but the question that's reform. but the question that's been dogging it since the announcement is enforceability. and i have to say, i could not believe what i heard rishi sunak say last night. you're going to take on young people and then if they don't take part , you're

they don't take part, you're going to hit their driving licences or you're going to hit their bank accounts. it's an assault on young people. so and when you look at the intergenerational unfairness we've seen over the last 14 years, the elderly protected every turn. young people seeing their tuition fees trebled and can't get access to housing. this is monstrous. >> so look, i think an idea of national service is a good idea, okay? you've got people from all sorts of parts of the world. we've got a multicultural, multi—ethnic population now. and one way to bring people together is through some form of a national service. now, there are practical elements to it. there need to be worked out. and that's what he said. he said there'll be a royal commission . there'll be a royal commission. frankly, i think the driving licence issue is difficult because anyone who knows millennials know that a lot of them don't have not even millennials. i mean, generation z we're talking about they don't have, driving licenses. lots of people don't have driving licenses until they're a bit older. so taking away their driver's license, i don't think is going to be an effective, deterrent. i think bank accounts, i agree, seems a bit

severe, but i think the idea needs to be debated, which we're doing , and i needs to be debated, which we're doing, and i think it's a good idea. i think it's a good thing to try and bring people together. but of course, to enhance national cohesion, it would be unenforceable. >> i think you'd have massive civil resistance from young people across the country. it'd be like going back to the poll tax, where i don't think the numbers of people i don't think refused to pay. >> so, so if you look at and he mentioned it, the prime minister, if you look across europe, there are lots of countries that have national service. sweden in germany has had it. lots of countries do it andifs had it. lots of countries do it and it's a vital element in terms of bringing people together and ensuring that we actually have a national community, because that's the problem we have. we have lots of lots of people coming into the country and there's no sense that people are building a sense of nationhood and a sense of togetherness. and i think national service is a good idea to target that just at young people. >> i agree with you. we need values and beliefs and traditions that bring us

together, bring everyone together. targeting young people in this way, i think, is what they're being targeted . so what they're being targeted. so what are you suggesting then? >> rolling it out, extending it to all age groups? >> no, no, i think this is a fatuous solution. i don't think it will work, and i don't think it's the right way forward. and you know, kwasi talks about other european countries, many other european countries, many other european countries have done away with national service, one because their military are opposed to it. they don't want young people. >> it's not just about military. it's not like it was in the 50s. and when it was stopped in, i think in 61, that was entirely military and it wasn't even it was just men. it wasn't it didn't extend to females. i think what we're trying to do in the 21st century is to bring people together. of course, it will apply to both men and women, and it's not just about military capacity. it's about bringing together people and having a sense of public service, sense of nationhood. and that's a good thing. >> who do you think it's going to bring together ? to bring together? >> i think look, we go across the uk and look at constituencies like mine. my old

constituency and other places, and you've got a very fragmented society. that's the thing. you see people who only go on social media and speak to like minded people , there's no sense really people, there's no sense really these days. it was not strong sense of sharing a kind of national story , sharing national national story, sharing national culture. and i think national service is a very good way of bringing to people, bringing together people in that way. >> kwasi do you not understand how singled out young people feel? you look at what's happened for the last 14 years, andifs happened for the last 14 years, and it's a reality that the elderly have been protected through the pensions triple lock. so you're saying they shouldn't have been protected? no, no, no, but that's the reality. whilst young people have been thrown to the wolves. >> so i think that's a really cynical and very pessimistic view of how young people think. >> it's not spoken to any young people about this. >> yeah i have, it's not time i'm there in favour of it are they? >> it's not targeted at, they're in favour of it. >> it's, it's they like it. they

like the idea of it. some of the people i speak to then you're on a different planet. the idea that people just don't want to do it because they don't want to share in national community is ridiculous. young people are patriotic and they want to learn about the country. they want to learn about the society they're in. and i think national service or a sense of national service bringing people together is a good idea. >> i'll tell you what young people would like is an apprenticeship or going to higher education. that's good. to both of which have been cut significantly. okay, so those are separate. >> that's a separate discussion 40% cut in apprenticeships. completely agree with you. but instead of coming to the table and trying to shoot good ideas down, i think you should be brought. of course it's a good idea. it's a good idea to bring people together and share in a national community. >> i'm biased right, and of course i'm going to, you know, disagree with what the conservatives are putting forward. i genuinely think this is the worst idea that you've put forward in terms of equity and fairness and enforcement. >> would you? okay, let me let me turn the tables on you. you've agreed with me that we should bring people together. we should bring people together. we should try and, you know, create a sense of national cohesion.

what is your alternative to that? this is a clear policy, a clear idea draws on the past, but it will obviously change it and make it more relevant to today's society. what's your idea? >>i idea? >> i think, for example, you've got to look at the schools curriculum and ensure that british values an opportunity to debate and discuss these issues is embedded within the curriculum . i think volunteering curriculum. i think volunteering opportunities, i think, you know, youth work and youth centres, which used to bring young people , regardless of young people, regardless of background, together and they've been decimated over the last decade or so. >> i don't disagree with you. i think all of those initiatives are good, but i think as a form of, togetherness, bringing everyone together and also building that national cohesion, national service has got to be discussed and we're discussing it now. i think it was one of the best policy offerings in this campaign. and i think the prime minister has done well to articulate that. >> i still don't understand how it's going to bring everyone together. so you're going to have a group of young people, 18 year olds, they're going to be

told, you have to do this. it's not nice to have you have to do this so you can have loads of people that resent doing it, or they're going to try everything to pull a fast one and get out of it. so that's you're going to have that cohort. sure. by the way, there will be loads of 18 year olds that are up for it. good for you. >> they'll have opportunities they've never had before. yeah. >> so that's so that's great for that group. so that's that group there off of the you know high five. you you're doing great. the ones that are resisting. so you're going to have them that are absolutely not being brought together. you're going to have their parents that probably don't appreciate their child being forced into something. i mean, i just think, how do we embrace, how do we embrace, you know, the people that are really going to have quite a visceral rejection of this. >> so my problem with that argument is that we're very good at tearing things down. we're very good at shooting down ideas, being cynical, all being very negative. and this actually in all this campaign is one of the most positive forward looking policies is and i think it needs to be examined. and as the prime minister said, we'd have a commission, we'd look at, sanctions so that we, you know,

people have to do this national service because it doesn't make sense if it's voluntary. it's not a national service, if it's just something that you can opt in and out of. but i think the idea of having something that bnngs idea of having something that brings people together, everybody , regardless of their everybody, regardless of their societal, their societal background, their ethnic heritage, their religion, i think is a good idea. i'm for that. >> but this is not the way forward. and look, it's a gimmick, but your solution is youth clubs. >> well, you know, i mean, the schools curriculum, it's youth clubs. >> but you know, the tory defence minister, two days before this was announced said, we're not going to do it because it would do more harm than good. what changed? a young special adviser within tory central office said we need something eye catching to appeal to the over 65. this is what we're going to do and it doesn't add up and it doesn't work. >> but when you say that someone said that they're not going to do it, were they not referring to essentially like a conscription where you're putting people into the armed forces, potentially against their will, was it not that that they were rejecting because this national service thing is not they're just all elements of this, as i understood the prime

minister last night within the debate will be enforceable. >> yes. and the two means that he identified you've acknowledged kwasi. i think taking away the driving licence and your bank account is not acceptable. okay. so how how are you going? okay, so. >> and what he said was that we'd look at a royal commission. those are just two suggestions. yeah. royal commission is taking it into the long grass. but we look at how you can enforce this. and it's not just about the old. it's not just about the old 1950s square bashing, type military, which was, you know, people appreciated that. we're going to it's going to be a different offer. it's going to apply to men and women. and you won't necessarily be directly focused on the armed services. it's all about trying to build togetherness and national cohesion, which we're lacking. you accept that. yeah. and this is a positive solution to trying to solve this problem . and i'm to solve this problem. and i'm not hearing any. >> at the very least, ideas are going to be significant numbers. who will not want to do it. how are you going to enforce it? answer i hear none because there isn't a credible way of enforcing. >> so he did. he mentioned two

ways, which are bonkers, i think i think, i think one of them is quite draconian. the bank accounts . and i think the, the accounts. and i think the, the driving licence won't work because a lot of 18 year olds don't have driving licenses these days. it's not sorry . these days. it's not sorry. >> no, no. carry on. i was just about to say it's not just, you said it's about draconian. when you're talking about restricting finances accounts is tricky. >> i mean, that's a difficult. yeah. >> a lot of people will be watching what rishi said. and, you know, a lot of governments got a little bit carried away with their power during the covid era. so when people now hear , you know, we're going to hear, you know, we're going to restrict your access to finance, people will automatically start thinking about, i don't know, social credit scores, digital currencies , overreach and all of currencies, overreach and all of that between between freezing bank accounts and confiscating whatever it is driving licence . whatever it is driving licence. >> is there lots of things that are fines? there are all sorts of ways that you can enforce this, and encourage people to do the national. >> well, look, i think what we have certainly got a consensus around the table and probably with you at home is something needs to be done. we do need to move things forward in a more unhed move things forward in a more united fashion in this country.

but is that answer the military service or the national service? should i say? is that the right one, and how would you enforce it at home? if it is indeed something that you agree with? get in touch with me. all the usual ways. after the break, i want to talk to you about the interest rates. was it right that the bank of england froze them yet again? you at two.

hello, everyone. i'm michelle dewberry with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, i've got the former chancellor of the exchequer, kwasi kwarteng, and the former labour minister, bill rammell. good evening to each and every one of you. we've just been debating whether or not you could actually enforce the so—called national service in this country, duncan says it just won't work the way that they say it will, it would only work if you essentially made them do it immediately upon leaving school. but i think that is kind of one of the ideas,

because of course, it is aimed at 18 year olds, christopher says, what about a national service which would include apprenticeships? there you go. so it'd be the best of both of your worlds. he thinks that would work. mark says so let me get this straight. parents are going to be forking out for driving lessons, and then the tories are going to come in and take their driving licence away from them because they weren't paying from them because they weren't paying paint, park benches every other weekend. keep your thoughts coming in on that one. look, i want to talk to you about something else which will probably affect many of you. and that is, of course, the interest rates in this country. you will know now that the bank of england decided to freeze them, basically keep them at the level that they are. i think it's a 16 year high or something there or thereabouts. that's despite, of course, inflation finally hitting the target of 2% kwasi of course, when people hear your name now, whether you like it or not, people will think about interest rates in association with you. what do you think to the fact that that we're still at this base rate now? should it be should it have been changed

by the bank of england or not? so the bank policy, i mean, people say, are you put up more mortgages, but that wasn't government policy. >> there was an effect on the gilt market, but of course, most people's mortgages across the country are linked to the bank rate, which is controlled by the bank of england. and what they've done is they've lifted they've done is they've lifted they've raised it something like 50 times. i mean, it's the bank rate at the end of 2021 was 0.1, and now it's 5.25. so it's 50 times greater, roughly, than it was three years ago, two and a half years ago. so the issue is when are they going to reduce the rates? that's what people want to hear. and i think the bank were damned if they did. and damned if they didn't. if they reduced rates during a campaign , then a whole bunch of campaign, then a whole bunch of people are going to say, this is political, and if they, increase them, a whole bunch of people would say it was political and they couldn't because inflation is going down. so i think it was a very finely balanced decision . a very finely balanced decision. and they they've decided to keep them as they are. and i totally

understand why they've done that. and the question i think should be asked is if the prime minister hadn't called the election, what would have happened? and it's a hypothetical question, but i think it's quite likely that they they would have they would have reduced them because it would have been less political than to do that. >> and going into this election, do you concede that a lot of people will be put off voting for the tories because of the acceleration of that interest rate rise off the back of your mini? >> well, it was it was linked. and i've said this repeatedly. i think we try to do too much too fast. we were trying to boost growth. and a lot of people, as you say, associate me and particularly liz truss with, with that episode, and i totally understand that. but now we've got a situation where the interest rates are , as you say, interest rates are, as you say, at 16 year high, they've been yanking them up over the last 18 months. and i think it's right for them to consider reducing the rate . but the problem that the rate. but the problem that they had this week was the fact

that that we're in the middle of an election campaign. and so , as an election campaign. and so, as i say, i think if they'd reduced them a whole bunch of people would have said, this is political and i think that added to their reluctance to do that. >> i understand where you're coming from, but i don't think it was a political decision. if it was a political decision. if it was, then it would have been a unanimous decision. it wasn't. it was 7 to 2. and i think the underlying issue and the seven who voted for the freeze said it was a finely balanced judgement. they did, and the key issue was services inflation, which is still 5.7, even though the overall rate is at 2, so i think they felt they needed to squeeze that out of the system before cutting rates. >> i think bill's right, and i think they'll do that next time. i think it's absolutely something. the seven who voted to freeze it, i'm sure would have been thinking about the election campaign. not it might not have been the main reason , not have been the main reason, but it was definitely a factor. and of course, the hypothetical iposed and of course, the hypothetical i posed was what would have happened if we weren't in an

election campaign. and i think that they would have had more motive to reduce the rate . motive to reduce the rate. >> i mean, many people would argue, by the way, because no one wants their base rates go up in effect. well, unless you're a saver, actually, you probably do. but if you've got a mortgage, you definitely don't. yeah, but many people would argue the other way that actually the bank of england was perhaps too slow to have raised them in response to the covid. that's right. times as well. that's right. times as well. that's right. times as well. that's right. but i mean, this is a it's a great gift from the tories for you to be able to beat the tories with this whole reaction to the mini—budget and that hike, because it's cost people. people can feel it. yeah, absolutely. >> and look, i don't want to be unfair to kwasi and i think you have acknowledged the failings. it was too much. i tell you what, it's got massive political cut through because one, it was a massively unfunded budget and two, it was the assault on independent institutions. so sacking the permanent secretary at the treasury , not having an at the treasury, not having an office for budget responsibility report . and that utterly spooked report. and that utterly spooked the market. >> so there were there were lots i mean, we could go to the

technicalities of it. i mean, there was the big issue actually, was the pension funds. that's what killed them. that's what broke the back of the liz truss administration. it's no accident. the day i was sacked was the day that the bank of england essentially closed the window to support all those pension funds that had had essentially borrowed to money buy its technical long. >> but if you're if you're responsible for, submitting budgets and all the rest of it, then surely people would argue that you stress test your thinking, that you make sure that you've dotted the i's thinking, that you make sure that you've dotted the 1's and cross the t's and ran it by whoever it is and scenario tested. >> kwasi was trying to do that. i accept i don't think the prime minister let him, but the issue that we had , and i agree that we had, and i agree completely with liz truss on this was that and labour are going to come back to this. >> i even hear their rhetoric. they say growth is the big issue because frankly, we're not going to be able to pay for all the pubuc to be able to pay for all the public services without growing the economy. and you can't grow the economy. and you can't grow the economy. and you can't grow the economy by just simply increasing taxes. >> and this is a pushback that you'll hear again to the labour party, because a lot of their manifesto and their plans and

ambitions are pinned, as kwasi says, on this growth, which is fabulous if growth happens, but then if it doesn't , do you think then if it doesn't, do you think there's enough kind of, wiggle room or whatever you want to call it, to support the plans of labour without having to take, hike taxes? >> look , we're very clear. we're >> look, we're very clear. we're not going to hike taxes. and i acknowledge if we don't get the growth that our plans are predicated on, it's going to be a tough few years. but i think our growth plans are credible. it's one ending the chaos and instability so that businesses can plan. it's to a national wealth fund. so you leave her in £3 of private investment for every £1 of public investment. three it's a mass housebuilding programme to kick start the economy. and but don't don't judge politicians on what they say, judge them on what they do. so the record of the last labour government delivered £150 billion more growth than 13 years of this tory government. >> so we're in a different context. you will remember that for most of that time was before the 2008 financial crisis. yeah.

and this isn't a problem . and this isn't a problem. >> the figure i'm quoting includes the world banking crisis. so yes, it was i'm comparing like with like. >> but the issue that i'm talking about isn't just a british issue. if you go across europe and people say we'd be better in the eu, you look at the eu countries, you look at france, you look at germany. they've got stagnant growth. i think germany is in recession. this is a europe wide problem in terms of how and you've got to solve this problem. you've got to provide good public services. but how do you do that if your economy is growing at 0.5? and that's a very difficult problem. >> and it's $1 million question. i know you say there will be no tax rises, but i've got to tell you, i speak to people every single day. a lot of people don't believe you. they really don't believe you. they really don't believe you. a lot of people will say, what's going to happenis people will say, what's going to happen is there's going to be a very quick emergency budget. people are then going to start saying, oh, actually, things are not what we thought that they were. things are not going in the direction that we thought they were going to go in. really sorry to have to do this, but boom, there's your tax rises. do you know what, michel? >> there's a number of labour party members hoping you're right. they're not. you're not right. they're not. you're not right. reeves and starmer are absolutely determined that we're

not going to go back to tax and spend as the only way to deliver the investment that we need. >> so if we get growth under laboun >> so if we get growth under labour, that's wonderful. 2% growth, 2.5. but if, god forbid, we don't get that growth, they will have to rely on raising more money through tax to pay for the public services, because the problem is a very simple one. i think. >> i think if we don't get the growth we're in for a tough time. yeah, i think we will get the growth and we can get maybe, but this is a europe wide problem. >> we can't just simply look at the uk in isolation and say, oh, well, we're not growing. well, germany isn't growing. >> look at the united states where the states joe biden is motoring ahead. he's not getting the political credit. >> and frankly, and, you know, i think trump had something to do with it. he sharply reduced corporation tax, which is what we tried to do or stop the increase. that's what jeremy hong campaigned for as well when he wanted to be a leader. >> actually, yeah, he did, he did. he said we should bring it down to 15. >> he did. but of course, once he got to the treasury, the facts had changed. and, you know, he had a particular crisis to deal with, which i was involved with and partially

responsible for. and i take that as a, you know, one has to that's the thing i hate about modern politics. people don't put their hands up. >> well, do you do you feel like because, you know, you say you take responsibility and accountability? yeah. some do you actually feel bad because there's a lot of people that are really struggling, i think it, i think we, i mean, i don't know what you mean by feeling bad. obviously, if i had my time again, we should have staged it. >> well, i would feel awful if i knew that, that my decisions as a politician, had meant that people now really he was financially, in often cases in desperate, desperate circumstances now because of decisions regrettable , awful. decisions regrettable, awful. >> it was regrettable. but i think the actual strategic goal is something that whoever forms the next government, how do we get growth is something we'll have to relook at. >> but when you hear about families struggling as a as an individual does it make you feel bad or not? >> it makes me. i think it's regrettable. of course it is. it's bad. of course you feel bad. but but but but at the same time, you can't lose sight of what the problem you're trying to solve. and i think i'll feel a lot worse, if we don't get any

growth and we strangle, we strangle any innovation out of this economy. but, you know, a lot more people will suffer if we're growing at 0.5% over the next five years than than did in the mini—budget, which was a penod the mini—budget, which was a period of seven weeks that i was in government. >> i agree, and i, lord your ambition to grow the economy. but i tell you what, on the left in politics, we always know we have to really bed the proposition seven down and ensure that it is bomb proof and with respect, that's not what you did. and that's why the markets were spooked. and particularly that decision to remove the office for budget responsibility. the markets were just going what are they. >> there were no you know we can discuss this till kingdom come. there was the energy intervention which was scored, you know, huge amounts of money that we used, we spent to protect people's bills on top of the tax cuts and all of these things added up together. and i accept that some of what you say and you talk about your plans and you talk about your plans and stuff and you'll talk about

private investment and stuff like that, there'll be people watching this and they'll be shouting at the screens about things like the pfi contracts in places like the nhs. >> many people will say actually looking backwards, that's been a hindrance to services like the nhs, not a help. >> that's true. the pfi delivered , along with government delivered, along with government investment, 100 new hospitals across the country. at what cost? yeah, but hold on. i acknowledge at the beginning of that programme that there was a learning process going on, particularly within the civil service. the contracts got much better as we went on and they delivered those hospitals. what have we had over the last 14 years? >> i mean, you know, 10 or 12 hospitals we can pick over the history. i mean, i think one of the biggest mistakes we made was when gordon brown sold off the gold reserves for 200 people. >> we'd be shouting that as well. >> there tend to the price of gold is nine times higher than it was then. >> why are you saying no to that? surely you would concede that? surely you would concede that that was a mistake. >> no, no, no, i don't, because if you look at independent analyses, the government got a good deal. >> that was a i mean, you know, i don't want to obviously you weren't responsible for it, but

that was a big mistake as a humble backbencher at the time. >> but i'm i'm surprised that you think selling off those gold reserves at a relatively cheap price. >> and it was the lowest it was a historic low. he sold that. >> but i don't want i don't want to say that it is value for money. >> we can we can relitigate the past. >> and on the back of it, we got the longest period of uninterrupted growth since the second world war. >> nothing to do with the selling of the gold reserves. but anyway, what do you make to it all at home? >> i know you, you'll have very strong opinions on what it is you're hearing. get in touch with me all the usual ways. i'll bnng with me all the usual ways. i'll bring you into the conversation after the break. speaking of after the break. speaking of after the break. speaking of after the break, a treat for you tonight. we've got a big interview with the labour leader, sir keir starmer. coming up, he will be speaking to our political editor, christopher hope, and a special programme at the 2020 for the leaders special. of course, takes place from 7:00 right here on gb news. after the break, i want to look at something keir starmer said last night. actually, about, stopping renters being able to outdo each other, gazump each other with rental offers. how are you going to do that? see in two.

>> anyway. >> anyway. >> hi there. i'm michelle dewberry . this is dewbs& co. dewberry. this is dewbs& co. we're keeping you company till 7:00 tonight, kwasi kwarteng and bill rammell remain alongside me. we were just having an interesting debate there about, bofis interesting debate there about, boris johnson and how the land would lie if perhaps he was running in this election. i know that some of you at home will have strong opinions on that as well. look, sir keir starmer, he was speaking out last night, let's just have a listen to what he had to say . he had to say. >> you have to stop the landlords ripping off tenants who are doing . you'll probably who are doing. you'll probably be familiar. this bidding war, you get this bidding war going on until the rents go through the roof. >> so you're saying they have to take the first offer? is that what you're saying for private landlords? no. >> we can't have this bidding war like this. >> no, i get that. is that. are you telling private landlords they have to take the first offer, then they have to. >> we have to have a scheme in place to stop them driving the rent up and up and up. >> okay, i'm still not entirely clear how you're going to do that. well, no, no, you've got to address this. want to let you what do you think to that kwasi. >> so that is for me pure

socialism. and it doesn't work very simply. we tried this stuff in the 70s. rental caps, all the rest of it. and if you force private landlords to do whatever it is you want them to do and have caps and all the rest of it, the danger is that they simply won't put their properties on the market. and if you constrict and what will it do? lessen and lessen, they might sell they might sell the properties. and if you if you sell, if you if you lower reduce the amount of rental properties available , that will push the available, that will push the pnces available, that will push the prices up. so the very thing you're trying to stop, you will create by making it less attractive to. >> yeah, but it might some would have watched this and pushed back and say, well, actually, if all these landlords put their properties on the market, what it might do is sure for the rental properties, it might increase prices there. but actually now if there's an influx of properties, it might start lowering the prices. >> so that's great if you're and that's great if you're in the market to buy property , i get market to buy property, i get that. but if you're a rent someone who wants to rent and you don't have enough of a deposit to buy a property, restricting the number of properties that you can rent out

will increase the price of the rent. and that's the one thing you want to avoid. >> i think this is a really serious issue and it's about fairness. 4 in 10 people who are renting in the private sector are paying more than the advertised rate, because we have this dickensian practice of landlords auctioning the property and saying, how much are you prepared to pay, how much are you prepared to pay? and i think that is fundamentally wrong. and what keir was talking about and what's in the manifesto is requiring landlords to publicise the rent level and then not encouraging people to undercut it. and i think that's the right way forward. >> so you're trying to control the market. it's like rental caps that we had in the 70s, where you had a cap on how much you could charge. it's effectively like that. and as i say, the problem with that is that the landlords aren't necessarily going to play ball with you. so they they can they can sell their properties. >> they even have rent control in the united states. the nirvana of the free market. no, ho. 110. >> no. >> in some states, in some states, they don't have it in

new york. yeah. and it's a disaster in new york because you get people who've been in properties for 40 years. >> so talk us through the practicalities of it. how do you think this would actually work? >> well, the detail isn't there at the moment that will come in the legislation, but there are a number of ways that you can do it. >> it's a it.— >> it's a classic it. >> it's a classic socialist. >>— >> it's a classic socialist. >> no, no, no in the details. it's a classic socialistic policy, socialist policy. >> and it won't work . and the, >> and it won't work. and the, the way you tackle the problem is by building more houses, which that's how that's how you tackle it. >> 1.5 million more homes. fair >>1.5 million more homes. fair enough. but you're trying to control the rents that landlords can can seek. >> you're going to drive a whole bunch of landlords off out of the market. you're going to reduce the number of properties that can be rented, and you're going to drive up the rental price. >> i don't think that will happenif >> i don't think that will happen if you do it in a balanced and proportionate way. and yes, the devil will be in the detail when we legislate. but let me give you some examples. >> retail not being considered though. >> well, because you have headunes >> well, because you have headlines within the manifesto, the detailed legislation requires parliamentary draughtsman to draft the legislation to go through the house of commons. but let me

give you some examples of how you might do it. you might do it through the tax return that, you know, you have to submit what you advertise the property at and how much you actually took in. you might do it by giving a legal right to the tenants to actually challenge when they feel they've been unfairly discriminated. what it is. but all of that will be about deterring landlords from going down this road, no matter how you dress it up, bill, this is a form of rental control and that never works for the reasons i've described, because essentially the landlord owns the property. >> and if you're saying there's a there's a cap, a rental cap, the amount that they can charge for the rent, you're essentially driving them probably out of the market. and that's a disaster because essentially you're taking off, you're taking out, i don't want to drive people out of the market, but i do want a level playing field and a sense of fairness. >> and this is about deterrence. i think it is wrong. and i think you think it's wrong kwasi that that landlords should be able to auction their properties and say, we'll take in the highest bidder, but that's not that's

not the right way to rent out, buy a house. >> that's exactly what happens. that's exactly what happens . you that's exactly what happens. you know, there might be an offer in terms of an advertised price for the house, and then people can put in bids and as a household, by and large, once someone is accepted, the offer , they don't accepted, the offer, they don't say to other people, oh, you've come in with more. >> we'll now take your offer. i actually think we ought to look, and i don't often say this at the system in scotland where they've got a better track record. yeah explicitly on gazumping they've done. >> they've done stuff to try and prevent. >> you could learn the lessons of that across the rented sector. >> but i think there's a huge risk in, in essentially having a rental cap. >> well do you think to that are you a tenant, are you a landlord. and do you think that in practice this kind of thing could work and is it welcomed by you? get in touch. tell me your thoughts coming up after the break, why have we got a situation where you've got muslim groups issuing manifestos of demands , you've got a hindu of demands, you've got a hindu groups issuing manifestos of demands, and you've got at least one candidate i've heard recently saying he's standing to represent black and brown

people. what's going on in this election campaign? see in two.

hi there. michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. the former chancellor of the exchequer, kwasi kwarteng alongside me. as is the former labour minister, bill rammell. we were just talking, about whether or not you can control the rents that are being required and or offered . philip required and or offered. philip says i'm a landlord and i am seriously considering selling off my portfolio. if the labour party get in, he says , i party get in, he says, i wouldn't do it rush, though i wouldn't do it rush, though i would be sitting and waiting for a decent bid. judy says landlords should charge what they want, and if no one rents off them, they'll soon reduce the price, bernardo, he says that there's too much greed fuelling the prices in the housing market. keep your thoughts coming in. but look, new research has revealed that voters of faith are placing apparently a great deal of importance on their religious beliefs when deciding how to vote. so what really stopped me in my tracks today caught my

eye. apparently, a small number of tory candidates have signed a so—called hindu mana festo, it's really kind of made me stop a little bit because, i remember there was a list of muslim demands. you've got this now so—called hindu manifesto that people are kind of saying, oh, yeah, we'll support it, you know, i saw a candidate the other day saying that he was running to represent the black and brown people in his constituency. this is sectarianism , and i don't really sectarianism, and i don't really think it's got a place in, in british politics. >> do you know i don't like it. i represented a constituency which i think was 95% white, and inever which i think was 95% white, and i never had an issue with this. i never had an issue with this. i don't think we should be looking to divide people on the grounds of colour or religion or ethnicity , and i think this ethnicity, and i think this development is unfortunate. we were discussing earlier, it's something actually that's been in britain for quite a while, because in certain cities like glasgow and liverpool, there were sectarian voters who were divided on protestant and catholic lines historically.

yeah. so it's not something that's completely new, but obviously with muslim faith groups, hindu community groups, there's a there's a tendency and there's a there's a tendency and there's a there's a tendency and there's a potential for it to increase. and i think that's something that we should try and resist. >> i think it's a really worrying trend, mobilising people on the basis of their religion. you know, go back to the rochdale by—election, where george galloway, dreadful man, you know , he was delivering you know, he was delivering different leaflets to muslim households compared to non—muslim households. the case you're referring to, michelle, are this hindu manifesto of various tory mps. theresa villiers is one of them. arch brexiteer cracking down on immigration that hindu tory manifesto actually says loosens the immigration rules for elderly hindu people. you know, this is just playing, fragmenting with religion. >> no. bill and i are probably on agreement on this, i think trying to divide people on

religious or ethnic lines and then appealing to different groups , because they're hindu or groups, because they're hindu or muslim or black or whatever . i muslim or black or whatever. i think it's very divisive. >> but it was the labour candidate , actually, who came. candidate, actually, who came. it was. and i mean, i'll say it's klaxon and i'll read out the candidates in just a second, but, it was him that came out and said that he was standing for all the black and brown people, but i think what he was trying to say, it wasn't that within some wider context. >> yeah. it was. >> yeah. it was. >> i don't think you know, clacton is actually very white as a constituency . i think it's as a constituency. i think it's probably about 95. i think what he was trying to say was he was standing for black and brown people across the country. and as a representative, as an mp representative, i think i don't agree with him. but if someone came out, that's what he was trying to say. just to put the context, if someone came out and said, i'm standing for all the white people in the country, they would be vilified . they would be vilified. >> yeah, they would be. they would be vilified. >> there would be calls to get them off the ballot and you name it, it would be discerned and it would be outrageous. >> but but but i agree with you. you know, you shouldn't be

standing for one section of the community should be trying to win them all across. but i agree with kwasi as well. this has a long history and my labour predecessor, stan newens, who's now sadly dead, he told me stories in the 70s of the catholic priest in the church advising people not to vote for him because of abortion . so, you him because of abortion. so, you know, i think involving religion in politics in this way, it has a history, but it's not the way forward, i agree. >> there you go. >> there you go. >> we've got we've got a point of agreement to end the show. and i've just got to say quickly, because i did mention a couple of, constituencies there. the candidates in the clacton constituency are jovan , asswell, constituency are jovan, asswell, nepal from the labour party, giles watling from the conservatives matthew bennett from the lib dems, nigel farage from the lib dems, nigel farage from reform uk and natasha osborne from the green party, craig jamieson from the climate party, tony mac, who is an independent, tassos papadopoulos , who from the heritage party, andrew pemberton from ukip and in chipping barton, mark dolan from the lib dems, david fabi from the lib dems, david fabi from the lib dems, david fabi from the greens, hamish hutter from the greens, hamish hutter

from reform, richard hewison from reform, richard hewison from rejoining eu, dan tomlinson from rejoining eu, dan tomlinson from labour, theresa villiers, conservative and keir , laura, conservative and keir, laura, independent. and brief, conservative and keir, laura, independent. and brief , there independent. and brief, there you go. look, gents, that's all ihave you go. look, gents, that's all i have got time for. very much enjoyed the conversation. maria says that she's very much enjoyed the panel. different views, but polite and respectful debate . she says thank you to debate. she says thank you to both of you, as do i, and thank you at home. don't go anywhere, though. i'll be back on monday. but for next, it's the 2024 nights. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update from the met office. this weekend will be a little bit cloudier than the week has been, but it's still going to be warm. but next week will be even warmer for the time being though, we've got a few weather fronts still moving in from the west that's going to introduce quite a lot of cloud from western areas, but also some

rain through this evening for parts of wales, north western england, much of scotland down to the south—west as well through this evening. and that's going to push eastwards through the night, introducing more cloud to central and eastern areas by tomorrow morning. now behind that it does turn much clearer across parts of northern ireland and scotland. we could see temperatures as low as five degrees for northern ireland, but for many of us another fairly mild start to the day. however, sunshine is going to be slightly more limited. very first thing tomorrow, but for much of scotland it should be a fairly bright start to the day that will likely see a bit more cloud across eastern areas of scotland. perhaps into the far northwest as well a risk of the odd shower. but for many areas of northern ireland and scotland, a bright start to the day . elsewhere across parts of day. elsewhere across parts of northeast england, a cloudy start to the day, some drizzly rain as well across eastern areas of england , but for much areas of england, but for much of wales in the southwest, still fairly bright and that sunshine will become a bit more widespread throughout saturday. the cloud is going to break up and lift up, and that will allow and lift up, and that will allow

a few showers to break out here and there across eastern areas of england. but i think most of us should stay dry through the day on saturday. and in that sunshine still feeling fairly warm. we've got very high uv levels and very high pollen levels. temperatures climbing towards 24 degrees across the southeast, but widely into the low 20s. another warm day to come on sunday. there is a more cloud arriving from the west through the day though, so it will likely be another cloudy start this time across wales, northwestern england and into the southwest. but once again it will brighten up as the day goes on.andin will brighten up as the day goes on. and in that sunshine it will feel very warm. turning even warmer though monday and into tuesday as temperatures climb to the mid to high 20s. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors

gb news. >> good evening. it's 7 pm. on friday, the 21st of june. and this is a gb news election

special with me. patrick christys. welcome to vote 2020 for the leaders . for the leaders. yes. welcome to a special edition of vote 2020 for the leaders. i am patrick christys and tonight i'll be bringing you a special sit down with the man hoping to be prime minister in two weeks time. sir keir starmer, the leader of the labour party, sir keir, will be answering the questions that you have sent in. so please keep them coming because this is the first of some interviews to come with other party leaders as well. tonight will be a show about all of the leaders. we have representatives from each of the three major parties. exactly two weeks before one of them takes hold of the keys to downing street. what has rishi sunak really got in store for the younger generation? for example , you'll have a set of example, you'll have a set of sanctions and incentives, and we will look at the models that are existing around europe to get

the appropriate mix of those. >> there's a