>> hello. >> hello. >> good evening . >> hello. >> good evening. i'm >> hello. >> good evening . i'm michael >> good evening. i'm michael portillo, bringing you state of the nation tonight. gb news vote 2024. the leaders. the interview with rishi sunak has occurred and it covered topics from gamble gate to the dire polling that suggests that he could lose his own seat to his views on nigel farage. >> he makes very clear that he doesn't want you, in his words, to surrender to keir starmer as a leaked recording of a labour frontbencher reveals the true cost of the green transition has the penny dropped on net zero.7 and will politicians be honest about it.7 nigel farage addressed an audience in the north east today, claiming that pandemic lockdowns were the uk's biggest peacetime mistake. he's also condemned the british government

for paying money to france to suppress migration, whilst french vessels escort illegal sailings by migrant dinghies towards britain. i'll also be speaking to a member of tony blair's cabinet about how this election compares, and contrasts with the blair fever of 1997. lord faulkner, the former lord chancellor , will impart his chancellor, will impart his worldly wisdom state of the nafion worldly wisdom state of the nation starts now . nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my panel gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson, and the journalist and conservative peer paul goodman. but first, it's peer paul goodman. but first, wsfime peer paul goodman. but first, it's time for the news bulletin with polly middlehurst . with polly middlehurst. >> michael, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that the prime

minister is urging voters not to surrender to labour, adding that this is a really important election moment where britain could make a better choice. he was speaking to gb news political editor christopher hope and rishi sunak said if labour wins the election, they'll reverse all the changes he's made . he's made. >> want people to surrender to labour? i don't want them to surrender to their tax rises. i don't want people to surrender our borders to labour, our welfare system, labour, our national security to labour. i'm up for the fight. i want people to join me in that fight like we should not surrender our country to this right. we can do better. last years has not been easy. i'm not saying we've got everything right. i completely understand that. but this is really important . this election. really important. this election. if labour are in power, they'll have a blank check to do whatever they want. that means put up your taxes, reverse all the changes i made to get us to net zero in a sensible way. reverse all the progress we made on illegal migration. >> rishi sunak. speaking to christopher hope earlier on. well, on the subject of illegal

migration, sir keir starmer has told gb news a labour government would work with whoever is in power in france to tackle the migrant journeys across the channel. he says the issue is much more than just about borders. >> record numbers of people are coming here in small boats. he's lost control of our borders, literally lost control. not only of the numbers that are coming, but also who's coming. and so this is not just a border issue. it's a national security issue. the deterrent is smashing the gangs that are running this vile trade so that nobody but nobody gets into a boat to cross the channel. the prime minister is simply interested in a gimmick. the rwanda scheme for people who've already arrived here. a few hundred people. >> sir keir starmer, meanwhile , >> sir keir starmer, meanwhile, the former newcastle united owner , sir john hall, the former newcastle united owner , sirjohn hall, has owner, sirjohn hall, has switched his support to reform uk after previously donating tens of thousands of pounds to the conservative party. he was cheered on at a reform speech

near sunderland, where the party leader, nigel farage, was speaking. mr farage said it was a privilege to welcome sirjohn a privilege to welcome sir john into the family and said he'd made a substantial donation to the party's campaign. sirjohn said he feels the tories have let him down. >> the conservative party has let me down. there have been a failure for the last many weeks for the last 14 years and they don't speak now, for my english is my way of life, which i feel is my way of life, which i feel is under threat. and i looked around basically who i could find to support, to speak for me and the reform party. i feel tonight is the only ones who are going to speak and about, saving my english culture. >> sirjohn hall, those are the >> sir john hall, those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm polly middlehurst back in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts .

slash alerts. >> thank you. polly middlehurst. facing opinion polls worse than any confronted by a major party leader, the prime minister, rishi sunak, may be commended for continuing to fight to retain office and yesterday evening was widely thought to have won the debate with sir keir starmer on the bbc in today's interview with gb news, he dismissed the thought that he might suffer a portillo moment in his own seat, losing his place in the next parliament, attacked keir starmer on taxes and defence and claimed progress for his own government in reducing immigration. nonetheless, the opinion polls offer grim reading for the conservative party. some of the methodology being used at this election is unfamiliar to many of us, and time will tell whether it is insightful and reliable. but one thing on which conservative and labour agree is that we should disregard the polls when we vote. although

conservatives really mean, please be wary of the labour supermajority, which is indicated by the polls and labour really means don't fail to vote, assuming that those opinion polls are right. whilst labour and conservative may have struggled to find new stories for each day, and whilst the ed davey has largely confined himself to self—deprecating stunts, nigel farage, leading the reform party, renews the agenda each day. he's recently chastised the government for paying chastised the government for paying money to france, allegedly for them to deter illegal cross—channel migration, whilst in fact the french authorities apparently escort dinghies crammed with migrants to the international median line in the english channel. today, farage has been condemning the economic and social costs of pandemic lockdown, another issue on which he hopes to dislodge disillusioned tories and maybe labour supporters too. we will discuss that later in the programme and i'll conclude today's programme by speaking to lord faulkner, the man who went from being tony blair's flatmate, to lord chancellor of the united kingdom. i'll ask him whether it takes tony blair to tell labour the definition of a

woman , whether we can trust sir woman, whether we can trust sir keir starmer, who at the last election supported jeremy corbyn and whether labour or britain could cope with a starmer supermajority . gb news is supermajority. gb news is political editor christopher hope spoke to the prime minister earlier today, and here are excerpts from what he had to say last night is keir starmer just does not have a plan for government on the economy. >> no answers on immigration, absolutely no answers. >> nine times you asked him he can't tell you what he's going to do. >> i've got a very clear plan for what i'm going to do with illegal migrants. they don't get to stay in our country. they should remove. he can't tell you what he's going to do on welfare. yep. the guy thinks that you can't make a penny of savings from the welfare budget. that's just clearly not right. that's just clearly not right. that's why i want to build on the progress we've made. cut people's taxes. and last night, people's taxes. and last night, people could see the choice very clearly. the only poll that does matter is on the 4th of july. right. and but what i'd say is, look, if those polls that you're talking about right end up happening on polling day, that means handing labour a blank cheque. blank cheque . you can't

cheque. blank cheque. you can't get it back. but i'd say to everyone watching that those polls aren't destiny, right? if i'm everyone's prime minister, i go to that nato summit increasing our defence spending to 2.5% of gdp, because this is the most dangerous time our country has faced in decades. we need to keep people safe. we need to keep people safe. we need to keep people safe. we need to get our allies to invest more. keir starmer is your prime minister he goes to that nato wmmw minister he goes to that nato summit. what's the first thing he's done? cut defence spending. when people are cheating at gambling it is illegal. we have laws against that. the gambling commission investigate people who they suspect of doing that, and they should do that . when and they should do that. when i learn about all of this, i was furious. like everyone . everyone furious. like everyone. everyone would be furious. you know, the idea that people would do something like that is just the antithesis of what public service is all about. i've been your prime minister, everyone's prime minister for 18 months. in that time, we've taken significant action. net migration was down last year, the first full year i was in office. and this year, thanks to the reforms that i've put in place, the number of visas we've issued is down by 30. that has never happened. and as i said

the other night, if the if labour win, the people smugglers and the criminal gangs are going to need a bigger boat, do not surrender our borders to keir starmer and the labour party. what nigel farage said about putin was completely wrong plays into putin's hands. putin is someone who has deployed nerve agents on the streets of britain just the other day, doing deals with north korea. >> finally, your message to the gb news viewers there watching this, this interview here, they're worried about immigration. they're containing the economy around. i mean, can you can't labour do that as well? can't aren't labour offering a more convincing case now than they have done in recent recent elections? well, the first thing i'd say is that the first thing i'd say is that the labour run welsh parliament have banned gb news turns. >> and i'll just say this right. i get that people are frustrated with my party with me. it's been a difficult few years with covid, the war in ukraine. we haven't got everything right. we haven't got everything right. we haven't made as much progress as we would have liked in some areas. but this is not a by—election your vote can make a

difference. this is a choice about our country's future and the impact it will have on your family finances. do not give labour a blank cheque to do what they want. do not surrender to them. >> so that was the prime minister joining me. now. gb ministerjoining me. now. gb news political editor christopher hope, as well as my panel gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson and the journalist and conservative peer paul goodman, christopher i think we were all pretty wide eyed watching that interview. it's as though we had not seen this rishi sunak before, or certainly i don't think we've seen him during this campaign. i think we've kind of established that that he sounds and looks completely different from how he's been until now. so my question is, why do you know what's gone on in the background? who's been talking to him and saying what something has happened because we i went up there on monday to edinburgh, saw rishi sunak, gave quite a lacklustre speech, addressed six journalists in a room, five questions about the betting scandal, and they made no

attempt to try and change the subject. >> talk about what he's bothered about. >> talk about what he's bothered about . and then suddenly on about. and then suddenly on wednesday, he comes out the traps and goes for the jugular with keir starmer and carries that into that , that that that into that, that that meeting in the pub with gb news this morning, fuelled by a full engush this morning, fuelled by a full english breakfast, he told me this morning, which is very rare for him, and some muesli and berries, but i think he's just, i don't know, is he seeing the finishing line in sight? he's got a chance. has he got a new idea? the new idea appears to be targeting 150,000 people who he says he changed their mind to have a big bearing on the election. you're rolling your eyes, michael portillo. >> i roll my eyes because politicians always say this of course it is true. the election is settled by 150,000 people, but you can't get at those 150,000 people without getting it. the millions amongst whom they swim. >> well, you seem to think they they on gb news, he said, you know, he did say, we did say at one point, you know, the viewers watching this, he's talking. >> he thinks maybe he thinks then the red wall, i don't know what or where they are, but he thinks they're through our

channel, nigel, i'd like to ask you, do you think do you think this has been researched ? the this has been researched? the word that he used, i think, 17 times in the debate, was a surrender . don't surrender to surrender. don't surrender to laboun surrender. don't surrender to labour. when you asked him, you said you've used it 17 times last night. he then used it four times in his answer to. you didn't say why he surrender, surrender, surrender, surrender. yes. do you think this word has been researched? yes, absolutely. >> i mean, the idea being that they're still trying to get, get rid of, get rid of this notion of the supermajority . and on the of the supermajority. and on the bafis of the supermajority. and on the basis of that, it's a damage limitation exercise to rescue as many tory mps as they possibly can. it doesn't feel like this is a winning message. it's just that and the 150,000 that you mentioned there, i mean, under first past the post, it's true that 150,000 votes can make a difference in the most marginal constituencies, but not when there's a poll lead of 20. so it is in itself a nonsense. but i think that the message all the way through now is please vote

some of our tory mps back. >> paul, just to remind us and viewers too, that many people have voted, i have voted. i mean, it's awfully late in the election to change your tone and come out with at least a damage limiting message . limiting message. >> it is. >> it is. >> do you do you feel a regret that he didn't start? i mean, you know, let's do a thought experiment here. supposing instead of appearing in the rain outside downing street, he had appeared in the dry inside downing street and sounded like that he can be like this from time to time. >> in the last stages of the leadership election against liz truss, he was very much in that vein, dropping the glottal stop. lots of right, lots of very direct points. he can do it intermittently and sadly, in this election he's done it rather late. i don't know if his confidence was buoyed by having been done when in the debate. i don't know if he was also buoyed up a bit by the fact that chris is a very fair interviewer and doesn't try to talk across him and interrupt him, and gave him and interrupt him, and gave him a chance to make his points. but your fundamental point is right.

this is now very late in the day. >> he's christopher. did you did you get any hints from around the interview? >> you you sit down with the prime minister, the man in the pub, and we see the formality of it. how did you feel about him off camera? how was he before he started? how was he after he ended? >> quite, quite, yeah. quite jolly, quite relaxed. he wasn't too rushed. normally, normally every time his time is calibrated. no, he seemed up for it and he discussed how we're going to do it and how we'd be a chatin going to do it and how we'd be a chat in the pub. but i would let him speak and try and interject when i could. i thought he was, you know, he seemed very relaxed and he can be quite, quite edgy when he's tired, i think. and another camera in front of his face. who is this person speaking to me? understandably. but i thought, yeah, he seemed quite relaxed. i've been struck, having covered been all over the place with the prime minister and with sir keir starmer is the safety first nature of this campaign. he's he's doing it meetings and with like his prime minister still . so you know when minister still. so you know when he when inflation hit 2% an amazing moment for his his his administration. he went off to suffolk to a nuclear power station, didn't go to a market

and talk to people affected by the cost of living crisis. and he's he's he's campaigning like a prime minister, not like he wants to win people's votes. and i don't understand why that is. >> we're missing that, old soapbox, the soapbox, which we thought would would emerge, actually, nigel, how will labour respond to this idea that the pubucis respond to this idea that the public is being invited not to surrender to labour, not to surrender to labour, not to surrender to labour, not to surrender to keir starmer? firstly, do you think labour will be in the least bit bothered by it? do will it? is it something that requires a counter? do you think? >> well, yes, because what they're bothered about is that in the event that people think labour are just going to walk it , they're not going to vote laboun , they're not going to vote labour. so labour are now have now changed their tack and are talking about the fact that, oh, the polls are much, much nearer than we think they are, that , than we think they are, that, don't believe them too much. you've got to keep voting for us. otherwise you may not get a labour government. so that's that's their counterattack. to what the tories are doing, i mean, both are a bit of in a

sense, a bit of a nonsense, aren't they, that the that the voters will go out there again because of our first past the post system? they can vote tactically in marginal constituencies. but really there's no kind of without pr, there's no kind of without pr, there's no kind of without pr, there's no way that they can start influencing the final result in that way, paul, the message appeared to be don't surrender to starmer. but what it really meant was don't vote for reform . for reform. >> i think there's a lot in there. i thought there was a slightly dunkirk dad's army feel to the word surrender. it's slightly sort of, you know, union jack waistcoat, john bull feeling to it. so undoubtedly there was an effort there to get at that sort of reform voter and try to make them think twice about either not voting, voting or voting labour. >> i think it is. or voting labour. >> i think it is . i pooh—pooh >> i think it is. i pooh—pooh the idea, and i rolled my eyes at the idea of 150,000 voters, but i find it quite plausible that there are voters who, on the morning of the election, won't know whether to vote

conservative or reform. i find that a plausible proposition, because in many ways, you know, i can see how voters float across, you know, those two possibilities. is it plausible? >> and usually you get a sort of slight row back for the government and talk about hidden tory voters. is it is it right to think about hidden reform voters , about people who've not voters, about people who've not declared for reform, who feel it's somehow not respectable to say that you're going to support reform ? i don't know, but this reform? i don't know, but this is a very complicated election in terms of who turns out to vote on the day and how it affects the result and labour's worry about their voters just not turning up because they think labour are going to win anyway, is a quite reasonable one. >> chris. i found it a pretty dull election. not very much has happened except perhaps that reform has caught up, maybe even possibly overtaken. the conservatives are you, you know, as a person who has to live through this, you've been at it for five weeks. are you cheered by this interview in the sense that it was quite lively? is it possible it opens up a slightly livelier last week and chapter in the general election?

>> i think so, and i think that, the pm actually was challenging the pm actually was challenging the labour leader. and what would you do? you know, you attack rwanda as being a waste of money, but what would you actually do? would you negotiate with the taliban? they were lines that landed very well last night. he repeatedly said, what's your answer? i think the mistake has been that they've allowed the polls to lead their argument against labour by saying, for the fear of a supermajority, rather than taking on starmer on his arguments and saying, well, what you're offering on, on illegal migration is, is basically the tory party's offering. without rwanda, what else would you do? i thought that was compelling. i think if we can get back to debating the two parties on ideas, it's quite refreshing, thought. >> another very good line from the prime minister was referring to the migrants. you're going to need a bigger boat. >> it didn't land, though, in the audience. and it's a jaws joke, isn't it? but it is. >> it is indeed a jaws joke. thank you very much to you, christopher. and the panel, paul goodman and nigel nelson coming up , labour thinks that £28 up, labour thinks that £28 billion of net zero spending is a tiny amount. we'll be speaking

to a sustainable investment manager to find out if this tiny amount isa is a drop in ocean when it comes to

change. and welcome back to state of the nation. i'm michael portillo, labour's chief secretary to the treasury. darren jones has described the 28 billion that was scrapped from labour's green investment plan as a tiny amount investment plan as a tiny amount in a recording that was leaked to the telegraph. >> we're still absolutely committed to it. it's still one of the top five priorities and it's going to be a huge amount of effort to get there, but we'll have to move quite quickly. but a lot of the coverage in the news was about that specific 28, which, because journalists like conflict made it sound as if we basically junked the whole thing. but we definitely have, because some people say that like 28 billion isn't enough. no. it's tiny. i've got to be worth hundreds of billions of pounds. we need ,

billions of pounds. we need, hundreds of millions of pounds , apparently. >> well, as i discussed last week with the former environment secretary, george eustice, the institute for government has projected the total cost of achieving net zero by 2050 will be £1.4 trillion, but the savings from the transition will equate to 1.1 trillion. if you take one from the other. the total cost of net zero is on that calculation. 321 billion. so, as mr jones says, such numbers do make the 28 billion originally allocated by labour sound very tiny indeed. i'm joined by james alexander, chief executive of the uk sustainable investment and finance association. welcome back to gb news. thanks very much for being with us, there's been a little bit about climate change during the course of the election , at the course of the election, at a launch the other day of the labour party, jim ratcliffe of manchester united and ineos, laughed out loud at the idea that we could have a green, production of electricity on the

on the target, on the timetable that's been proposed. we have had stellantis saying that it may have to pull out of production of vehicles in the united kingdom, because they're going to be fined if they produce too many non—electric vehicles and demand for electric vehicles and demand for electric vehicles seems to be going down. can net zero be achieved on anything like the timetable being proposed by either labour or the conservatives >> yes, and it has to be. and the reason why it has to be is because the challenge that we face is so significant. but, but, but more importantly, it's a huge economic opportunity for us. and for the country. you know, we're seeing this framed and you framed it a moment ago as a cost. this is not a cost. this is about getting investment, private investment into the uk. and there's a huge wall of capital. our members have, you know, trillions of pounds that they need to invest around the world. and at the moment they're not looking at the uk as an investment destination. and the reason why is because the uk doesn't have the right policies on sustainability that are about driving the economy forwards into a greener future that will

augn into a greener future that will align with where the rest of the world is going. >> okay. i mean, let's take the two examples that i came up with generation of electricity. how will you achieve net zero on anything like the timescales suggested by labour or conservative? >> with what? well, so we know that a lot of the technology that a lot of the technology that we need is already there. what we now need to do, which ones? well, the renewable infrastructure, the, the solar, the battery storage, the other electricity storage, the wind turbines, these are, you know, these are very significantly advanced in technology . advanced in technology. >> wind turbines are awfully useful on days when it's windy. a solar is awfully useful in sunny countries, but many days the wind doesn't blow and we don't have much sun. >> well, so this doesn't need to happen. this transition is very gradual. what we're doing is we're developing. it is in the process of developing the technology that will allow us to store the energy. and the good thing is that that's all in store. it where in either in batteries there's many other ways of storing technology which are the other ways. my expertise is in investment. and i can tell you, i can tell you tell me, how do you store electricity? well, what i can tell you is that

there are what what acreage of batteries would you require or what what storage? >> i mean, you can store energy, can't you, by pumping water up mountains. what what does it cost to install a facility like that? >> so. well, i can tell you is that it's not a cost, it's an investment. and that is because we have got people across the industry, the financial services industry, the financial services industry that are already looking at investing in energy storage. and can i tell you why they're not doing it? because we haven't yet got the uk in a position where those investments can actually work. reason why we haven't got the planning rules in place, where these things can get can get planning permission, but more importantly , we do not but more importantly, we do not yet have the grid capacity that will allow us to do that. and so we need to rapidly fix those things so that we can attract huge walls of investment into the uk. >> but you're telling me all the things that we don't have, which was rather my point that it's not achievable on the timescale suggested, either by labour or by the conservatives >> i don't think anyone's pretending this is going to be easy, but i think no, no, i'm not saying that it's easy. >> i'm saying it's i think what's important, it's impossible on the times that it's possible and that the money and the investment is there,

that's, that's going to allow this to happen. >> okay. i mean, let's turn to electric cars, the government's proposal has been to phase out, cars driven by carbon, by hydrocarbons within quite a brief period of time. what is happening at the moment is that people are not buying electric cars. anything like the rate that was predicted . that may be that was predicted. that may be partly because they're worried about charging them. they may not have charging facilities, but now the government is committed to working against the market. so it is going to fine car companies for producing non—electric vehicles. when the people have decided they don't want to buy them . want to buy them. >> no, that's that's not that's not the way that this has happened. what the government's done. and it was a very sensible policy was to have the 2030 electric vehicle target mandate. what that meant was that investors had the confidence to come here and invest in all the infrastructure that was required to make it possible to run electric cars. now, obviously, you can't have electric cars without the plug in point where how do you get those? you need private investors to come in and help make that possible across

the country. that was beginning to happen. huge amounts of capital were being deployed because investors had the confidence that with those targets set by government, that there would be customers for their electric vehicle plug in point, that also it was creating a they don't have that confidence now. yes. and the reason why is because that target has been rolled back to 2025, in one, in one, in one swoop. it really damaged investor confidence. and the whole of investment is a confidence game because investors are looking at investing pensions , people's investing pensions, people's pensions, our pensions for the long term into infrastructure in the uk. >> i'm sure you understand investors and maybe because they used to be a politician, i understand ordinary people . understand ordinary people. what's happening is drivers are not buying these vehicles. >> and when did that start to tick down at the point that the electric vehicle target was was changed, the target was driving? i think it's when it was doing its job of driving activity, building, building more clients for the electric vehicle infrastructure, therefore making the infrastructure more viable. therefore making more infrastructure be financed and built. that's the whole point of the target. and that is when

government, investors and corporates all work together in lockstep to move things forward. and that is exactly what we need to do if we're to achieve this transition on energy, on transport in in other areas, you get you get investors, you get companies. and crucially, you need the government and the policy landscape to make that possible, to build that investor confidence, which allows the investment to flow. and that is what will drive this country in the economy into the future. and thatis the economy into the future. and that is the positive thing. now the alternative is we don't do those things and the country stays in the slow lane, stay relying on fossil fuels whose pnces relying on fossil fuels whose prices spike whenever there's geopolitical turmoil. we have the long term challenge of not knowing what energy is going to cost and that creates the challenge where people feel they can't invest further. >> wouldn't we be joining the united states in china in the slow lane because neither of those countries has committed to the targets that we have. >> so what the united states has doneis >> so what the united states has done is put trillions of dollars into the inflation reduction act committed itself under law as the united kingdom has, and neither has china. but it's about and you talk about the in the united states, it's what is it's about the point when those countries are not doing it well. so what we found ourselves, what the united states is doing, the

actions of the united states is actually hoovering investment across the atlantic from the uk. we are not an attractive destination for capital at this point. and the reason why is partly because we haven't got the government policies in place to make the uk attractive, but also because america has done a great job of attracting capital with its inflation reduction act. now we have got to find a way in the uk to make ourselves a comparatively better investment destination for global private investors, with trillions of pounds to spend to and invest, we've got to find a way of making ourselves an investable destination. >> thank you very much indeed. that's james alex james alexander, who's the chief executive of the uk sustainable investment and finance association. coming up, nigel farage was on the campaign trail in the north east today. how did the geordies, mackems and smoggies receive the leader of reform uk? stay tuned to find

welcome back to state of the nation. i'm michael portillo, as even nation. i'm michael portillo, as ever. nigel farage was busy making headlines today addressing a reform uk rally at the rainton arena in the north east of england. the leader of the party projected in one poll to win 18 seats, had this to say to win 18 seats, had this to say to a crowd of a thousand people the tories say we're in economic trouble because of the pandemic, but hang on, you didn't need to lock us down for a second and a third time. >> i actually believe the long term economic and psychological damage from lockdowns two and three is perhaps represents the biggest mistake any british government supported by the opposition has ever made in peacetime . peacetime. >> now, farage also made

headunes >> now, farage also made headlines when he called for a confrontation with the french over channel crossings whilst britain pays france to suppress illegal immigration, vessels operating for the french state escort illegal migrants in their dinghies towards britain. i'm rejoined now by my panel. gb news, senior political commentator nigel nelson and the journalist and conservative peer paul goodman. paul is this true that in return for the hundreds of millions that we're paying france? i mean, i've seen photographs, but they're only photographs, but they're only photographs of what appear to be vessels working for the french state, which are escorting illegal migrants to the median line in the english channel. that's certainly what nigel farage is asking to us believe. >> it's certainly true that we have given money to the french to try to deal with the problem. i remember that happening when priti patel was home secretary. what i don't understand from nigel farage is so clearly, and i've been trying to think about it all day, is what his solution to the problem is, regardless of what we are or are not doing with the french, well, you might want his money back. he might want his money back. he might

also want a solution that's completely impracticable, which seems to be the case, which is simply trying to force the boats back on the french. okay, you try and do that. what happens then? well, but but there is a halfway house. >> i mean, it is common ground between us and the french that these sailings are illegal. well, they're not they're not illegal. >> no, i mean that the migrants may become illegal when they get to this country. it is not illegal under international law to sail across the channel in a dinghy , even though you're dinghy, even though you're clearly imperilling your life. i mean, i'm i that's my choice. i remember nigel saying that if he tried to set sail in in his little boat. yeah, from any french port, he would be absolutely hemmed around by bureaucracy and red tape. yes. which would prevent him sailing in his little boat. but you're saying if 50 people set out to claim asylum in imminent danger of capsizing , arranged and of capsizing, arranged and financed by a criminal gang , financed by a criminal gang, that there's nothing wrong with that. i mean, sorry, nothing

illegal, nothing illegal. >> the international law, nothing illegal. and the illegal migration act, which is which is badly, badly called, actually makes that point. it doesn't say that these are illegal. what it says is they're inadmissible when they arrive in this country. at that point, they can well become illegal migrants, but they're not illegal migrants while they're in the channel. >> so if you were the prime minister. yeah. and you'd paid hundreds of millions to the french. >> 500 billion. >> 500 billion. >> 500 billion. >> 500 million. yes. 500 million. and you saw the, the dinghies leaving france, not only unhindered, but actually helped escorted towards the median line . would you not want median line. would you not want your money back? >> no. on the basis that they're not escorting them. what they're doing is they're standing by the french attitude to all this is they work under international maritime law. that means that they don't actually they don't come to the aid of those. they don't aid the dinghies, but they only come to their aid if they're in trouble, if they're getting into trouble, or they're

asked to other than that, they're purely standing by. so they're purely standing by. so they're not escorts, they're not trying to usher them across the channel. it's nonsense . and the channel. it's nonsense. and the rest of the money is being used for 500 extra french police. we've also got a detention centre being built. it won't come online till 2026, but we have actually got that happening. that's where the money is going. >> nigel, you've given a brilliant explanation, if i may say so, but i'm not at all sure that you haven't rather help nigel farage with your explanation, because it just strikes me as so completely absurd that that could be the case. >> there's another oddity about the farage argument, which is that the picture you're painting is as though the french were watching every single boat go out. i would want to know how many boats the french are actually watching, because there will be numbers going off from the beaches of normandy all the time that are not being observed by french boats. that is part of the problem. >> may i switch the subject to nigel farage's other subject, which was the damage done by the second and third lockdowns? did you have a sympathy with that

position that was a really interesting argument that farage made. >> it was the second or third time i've seen him argue something that's contrary to the instincts of his supporters. so i heard him lauding the french health care system in a debate the other evenings, which, again, is not really where they are. and this was an instance of him making an argument that a lot of reform voters at the time would have had sympathy with. they were wanting more extensive lockdowns, but actually , on the lockdowns, but actually, on the subject of the actual how do you how do you judge that? >> have they been polled? yes you have. i'm a potential potential reform voter and i dislike lockdowns very much and argued against them at the time very much. >> there has been polling on it and most of the opposition to lockdown at the time. the articulate opposition came from articulate opposition came from articulate , libertarian minded articulate, libertarian minded journalists at the rather top end of the scale, not from, not from. have you recognise yourself? not not, not from sort of ordinary voters . but i did of ordinary voters. but i did have a sympathy for his argument

in retrospect, in that he was very careful not to apply this to the first lockdown, when we knew rather less about covid and when there was a better case for locking down while you're trying to get to grips with what was going on. >> it seemed to go down well with the crowd tonight. this particular point, we could hear him being cheered and applauded for the point . and nigel, what for the point. and nigel, what do you make of it? i mean, first of all, do you happen to think that the second and third lockdowns were pretty damaging economically and psychologically? and whether you do or whether you don't, do you think there's political potential, political advantage to farage in raising this point now? >> no, because covid hasn't really played a big a big part of this election anyway. i mean, covid is past well, it's still with us, but it's not with us in the in a pandemic form. i mean, if you look at the lockdowns, nigel, it was interestingly did keep away from the first lockdown. but even if you look at the second and third lockdowns, every time we had a lockdown, infections went down and a few weeks later deaths went down to lockdowns quite

patently weren't. and the question should be, especially with the third lockdown, did we do it soon enough? we should have done it in the at the end of december 2020, you haven't you haven't mentioned costs there at all. >> you don't you don't think that the cost ought to be brought into the argument at all? i can't believe we're talking about lockdowns in 2024. but here we are, here we are, bnng but here we are, here we are, bring costs into. >> no, i wasn't bringing costs into it. i was i was bringing human life into it. and have we locked down the third lockdown? >> human life has a value. if you're going to build a motorway, you'd say this motorway, you'd say this motorway saves so many lives a year and it costs so many millions. and then you come up with a figure as to whether it's worth doing. we never did that in the pandemic. we didn't say these are the lives that are being saved. and this is the life expectancy of the lives being saved, and this is what it's costing. >> so what you'd like to do there is put a cost on those lives that we've saved. right? okay. >> well, which is what we do in all fields, all other fields . yeah. >> but if you're talking about talking about the numbers of people who are likely to die. so we lost, what, 270,000 people

dunng we lost, what, 270,000 people during covid without the vaccine, we could have lost another half a million. >> yes. the vaccine was indeed a great saviour . and nigel, not great saviour. and nigel, not even nigel farage is making an argument about the vaccine, thank you very much to you both very good humoured debate there. paul goodman and nigel nelson. coming up, the polls are suggesting a 1997 style labour landslide, at least after the break out, reminiscent with a man who knows tony blair extremely well. don't go anywhere, please

welcome back to state of the nation. i'm michael portillo with the polls showing a labour landslide, many have drawn comparisons with the 1997 election, when tony blair became prime minister with a massive majority . yet things do seem majority. yet things do seem different to me today. in 1997, the country was awash with optimism that a change of

government would bring about great change. things can only get better as the song went. i just don't detect that mood today, nor do i see the enthusiasm for sir keir starmer. that was clearly widespread for tony blair to check my impressions, i'm joined by one who was and is a good friend of tony blair and who would go on to serve as his lord chancellor . to serve as his lord chancellor. welcome, lord faulkner. charlie, great to see you on this point about whether the optimism in the country, about what what's going to happen if there's a change of government. do you agree that the optimism that was felt in 1997, i thought rather naively at the time, but never mind that that is absent today. >> yes, i do, i think the mood is much bleaker at the moment. >> i mean, i think there's so many differences with 1997. >> i mean, this is from my point of view as a labour supporter , of view as a labour supporter, we were jolly uncertain about what would happen in 1997. >> we'd been bruised by the experience of 1992, when a lot of people possibly including

ourselves, had thought that we would win, and then we had surprisingly lost. and polling wasn't so accurate in those days.i wasn't so accurate in those days. i don't know if you remember, but in 1992, there was a exit poll that's after the polls had closed on the bbc and i think on the itv saying it was going to be a hung parliament. >> and in fact, in 1992 the conservatives won an overall majority. >> so polling was not reliable or not as seen as reliable , as or not as seen as reliable, as reliable as it is now. >> so we were uncertain and unsure, but we did think we could win and we hoped we would win. you'd been in, but your uncertainty , which i think was a uncertainty, which i think was a kind of rather sort of professional and metropolitan thing, you didn't dare hope. >> but in the country there was tremendous hope. yes. i mean, the song things can only get better was was heartfelt. people really as tony blair went up to downing street, you remember gladhanding his way up downing street, i do. people were celebrating. they thought everything was going to come. right as i say, i thought that was naive, but i don't think it's going to be like that. if

sir keir goes up. downing street on friday morning. >> and i think that's partly because how have politicians fared since 1997? they've not fared since 1997? they've not fared that well. >> for example, we've had the expenses scandal that makes the idea of somebody like tony blair, who the hope of the nafion blair, who the hope of the nation rested upon his shoulders. >> people believed that he could bnng >> people believed that he could bring change. and i mean, you say it was naive, but he did bnng say it was naive, but he did bring very, very substantial change. people have got a much darker view. i think now about politicians. it's hard to imagine any politician having that sort of, caveated hope resting on his shoulders and part of the reason was because he seemed so fresh and so new in relation to it, i wonder, i wonder, though, if there are some matters that relate ad hominem things that relate to the man himself relate to sir keir starmer. i think he probably has sustained some damage. has he not? from that question about why did you support jeremy corbyn at the last general election, by the way , you were in jeremy corbyn's

way, you were in jeremy corbyn's shadow. i mean, i perhaps you can perhaps you can understand the answer that he gave. what what what is the explanation that a man could support jeremy corbyn at one election and then be so different at the following one? >> well, i mean, the you remember tony blair became elected first of all, as a mp who had supported the was it called by gerald kaufman the longest suicide note in history, which is michael foot's 1983 which is michael foot's1983 election? if you're labour, you support the labour candidate for prime minister. >> so i just referred to people's cynicism. >> no wonder they're cynical when you say this. >> but why do you why do you think people do you think people don't believe that? >> we often and i don't know if you remember, you might have been a politician at some time yourself. michael. do people support everything that their prime ministers say? not necessarily, but they recognise that we have a party system whereby you pool your disagreements because you agree on enough to make it worthwhile, and agreeing in 2017 or 19 that

it would be better to have a labour government than a tory government is a perfectly reasonable position to take up , reasonable position to take up, it seems to me. but that's not i. that's my explanation for that. that would be my position as to why i supported jeremy corbyn. you must have had some very considerable doubts about some of the prime ministers that you served. >> well , this is not about me, >> well, this is not about me, but i don't think i don't. >> i'm not saying that i don't aren't that i don't think i would have. >> i didn't need to have doubts about, let's say, john major, as you would need to have about jeremy corbyn. i don't think they are essentially comparable. tell me this. >> do you think were you an mp when ian duncan smith, did he never run in an election , no he never run in an election, no he didn't, he didn't run in an election. >> were you an mp when he was the leader of the tory party and he got he got more votes than i did for the leadership. >> yeah. but by the way, i'm. i'm the interviewer. >> sorry, but this is an interesting discussion, but, i mean, i'm drawing attention to the fact that party politicians have to do things.

>> do you think it took tony blair like a deus ex machina god arriving in a machine to tell the labour party what a woman was, to tell keir starmer what a woman was? he came up with a definition which is rather straightforward, but i think it involved penises and vaginas. it seemed fairly straightforward to me. but did did the labour party really need its ex—leader to come and tell it what a woman is? >> no, no. and that whole debate about transgender people is a is about transgender people is a is a is a slightly fake debate. the question in a way everybody knows what a biological man or a biological woman is. and that's not a difficulty. the question is, how does society deal with people who want to be a different sex to their biological, original sex and you recognise in addressing that issue , you've got to address the issue, you've got to address the absolutely legitimate concerns of, for example, biological women who want to have safe spaces and they want to be absolutely secure in that knowledge. and that's the dilemma for the law. but nobody wanted to be phillipson today

was asked eight times by nick ferrari, whether a trans woman who has a penis, who's in a restaurant which has a male and a female loo, which of the two loos should that person use ? loos should that person use? >> she was not able to answer it after eight goes. are you able to answer it? >> sorry, could i miss a trans woman? >> yes. with a penis. yeah. and there are two loos. one's male. and which one is female? which would she use? well, the one that. >> the one that causes least offence, i would have thought would be the not answering it ehhen >> least offence to humour to her, to other people and to herself. >> mostly that was how do you do that? >> by taking a poll in the restaurant. i are you saying then the only answer. >> she's got to go to the gents loo. >> what i'm saying is that your answer. what i'm saying? >> well, you're criticising me for not being able to answer the question. >> well, only because. only because i think you're speaking for the labour party. what? what i think people the serious point here is that labour is likely to come into office next week. >> that is what the polls

suggest. >> but and lots of questions like this have not been answered. labour is saying we want to make it easier for people to transition. >> i don't think the answer in relation to that sort of question is, well, it's obviously straightforward. he's he sorry. the trans woman . she he sorry. the trans woman. she has got to go to the male, i think even though even though it would, it might well be that there would be no offence caused in the particular restaurant, that she would behave in a completely discreet way. and i think your position is no , think your position is no, you've got to say she's got to go to the gentleman's. >> i have no position. i'm simply i'm simply asking the question . we've got a matter of question. we've got a matter of seconds to go. okay. can i just ask you what is your prediction for the election? obviously, i'm talking about seats. yeah. >> i can't give a i just don't know. but i mean, the polls are making it absolutely clear labour are going to get a lot of seats. but i, i think there may well be surprises in relation to this. i wonder whether or not, reform at the moment may get more seats. i just don't know than people are expecting .

than people are expecting. >> okay, we'll go with that, lord falconer's prediction is that reform may get more seats than people are suggesting. next on is patrick christys, patrick, are you there for me to speak to you? >>iam you? >> i am always for you, michael . >> i am always for you, michael. >> i am always for you, michael. >> that's jolly good. what are you going to be talking about this evening? >> yeah, loads to go out tonight, the junior doctor strikes . are they killing strikes. are they killing people, and will labour actually be able to stop them? nhs nurses as well are now suing because a sexually active man who identifies as a woman is being allowed in their changing rooms. they join me live in the studio and angela rayner wants every single borough in the country to take their fair share of illegal migrants. has labour capitulated on illegal immigration? with a week to go, michael , that all week to go, michael, that all sounds fascinating. >> that's all coming up after the weather, we'll be back with more state of the week, state of the nation next week . for now, the nation next week. for now, i'm michael portillo. this has been state of the nation. good night .

night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news >> hi there. it's time for the latest update from the met office for gb news. cool atlantic winds return across the uk this weekend. that means blustery showers, especially for northern parts, but some drier and brighter interludes too, especially across southern parts. low pressure and unseasonably deep. low is now crossing northern scotland. around the south of that low, we've got these strong winds bringing unpleasant conditions really across scotland, northern ireland, northern england, spells of rain or showers continuing through the night, the strongest winds pushing through northern and northeast scotland. meanwhile, further south, it's mostly dry, apart from 1 or 2 showers for wales in the south—west patchy cloud, but a cooler night for many of us, so 11 to 13 celsius by dawn. now we start the day with those winds and the outbreaks of rain continuing across northwest scotland , northwest highlands

scotland, northwest highlands seeing prolonged and at times heavy rain and the rain then sweeping into orkney and shetland. later some shelter from the rain across eastern and southern scotland, but a few showers here, brightening up across northern ireland compared with the last 24 hours. a few sunny spells but also 1 or 2 showers. a few showers there for wales. northern england, perhaps the southwest, but the further south—east you are, the drier will be, the brighter it will be. there'll be quite a lot of cloud to be honest, across the uk during the day, but some brightness will develop, especially towards the southwest by the afternoon. further north any rain tends to break up into showers, but there will be some heavy downpours for the highlands. grampians, the northwest of scotland and that strong wind continues, making it feel on the cool side in the south, where we've got some sunshine and lighter winds 23 celsius. so not too unpleasant. we start saturday with a lot of fine weather. best of the sunshine. the south—east, as well as parts of southern scotland, northern ireland. this finger of cloud pushes into northern and western england as

well as wales to bring some light rain by the afternoon. but for many, this weekend is looking mostly settled , if a lot looking mostly settled, if a lot cooler compared with the weather of recent days . of recent days. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

showdown of the 2024 election cycle live on cnn in atlanta, andifs cycle live on cnn in atlanta, and it's just seconds away now. you can watch it live here on gb news. the rules of the debate are as follows. the candidates have agreed to appear at a uniform podium. microphones will be muted throughout the debate, except for the candidate whose turn it is to speak and both men are launching their campaigns off the back of brand new

multi—million