>> good evening. it is 9:00. this is patrick christys tonight with me. mark dolan. >> response both to the immediate challenge, which is clearly driven by far right hatred. >> far right are a reaction to fear, to discomfort, to unease . fear, to discomfort, to unease. >> police prepare for more

despicable riots in at least eight towns and cities this weekend . but did starmer weekend. but did starmer properly address the legitimate concerns of the british people in his downing street address yesterday? was he right to single out the far right? we'll hear from both sides on that one. also tonight, someone who is effectively a biological male beating up a woman in the boxing ring tells you everything you need to know about the madness of woke ideology. does a woman have to die in the ring for people to wake up and realise you cannot change your sex? i'll tackle that next. and let me tell you, the gloves are off. >> plus, huw edwards ought to return the salary. i think having been arrested on such serious charges should disgraced ex bbc presenter huw edwards return his bumper tax payer funded salary and his gold plated pension after admitting child abuse? >> image charges? i'll speak to a top tv exec about whether he

will do the right thing . also, will do the right thing. also, harry and meghan won't come to the uk over safety fears, but are heading to crime ridden colombia, which has one of the highest murder rates in the world. are we tackling the duke and duchess of double standards at ten? and i'll take you through the first of tomorrow's front pages with my top panel of prime time pundits this evening . prime time pundits this evening. journalist and author hilary sergeant, tv news legend john sergeant, tv news legend john sergeant, and entrepreneur and social commentator joana jarjue. oh, and creepy joe strikes again. >> remember, no serious guys to your 30. >> god loves. she was 13. welcome to hell. an action packed two hours of friday tv woke harry and meghan at ten, and the madness of the olympics and the madness of the olympics and boxing goes bonkers. let's get to work .

get to work. does a woman have to die in the ring for people to wake up and realise you cannot change your sex? that's . sex? that's. next. >> very good evening to you. back to mark. in just a few moments time. first though, a look at the headlines at just after 9:00 and despite police warnings , it seems a weekend of warnings, it seems a weekend of planned protests have now begun across the uk. rallies have stemmed from misinformation onune stemmed from misinformation online about the suspect of a stabbing spree in southport. there are additional patrols in liverpool tonight and in sunderland officers there are describing ongoing disorder there are reports in southport, southport tonight that various protests are taking place. you can see there scenes from sunderland with rioters kicking a taxi and throwing stones,

releasing fire cannons. a taxi and throwing stones, releasing fire cannons . and they releasing fire cannons. and they were earlier seen interrupting police on the streets, chanting as mounted police and officers in vans took to the roads to keep the peace. meanwhile the prime minister has visited southport for the second time this week to announce a package of support for the town during his time there. this week, sir keir starmer has praised the town's resilience and announced mental health support and events to bolster local cohesion. meanwhile, tonight in london, downing street has joined with other landmarks across the north west, lighting up pink over the weekend in memory of the young girls that were killed in the southport knife attack. nine year old alice dasilva aguiar , year old alice dasilva aguiar, six year old bebe king and seven year old elsie dot stancombe were killed when a knifeman attacked them on monday. eight other children were also injured, along with two adults. robert jenrick claims the conservatives lost the july general election because of a

broken promise on immigration. the former immigration minister was speaking at the launch of his campaign to become the party leader and to succeed rishi sunak. mrjenrick also claimed the british political system has, he said, appeared either unwilling or unable to secure the uk's border , broke our the uk's border, broke our promise to the british public to deliver controlled and reduced migration and the secure border that the public rightly demand . that the public rightly demand. >> we allowed the cycle of broken promises to continue and as a minister, when i concluded that i couldn't secure any more changes to our legal migration system, i resigned from cabinet last year . last year. >> in other news, today , >> in other news, today, organisations are considering their ties with huw edwards as plaques have been removed and a mural was painted over in his hometown. it's after he admitted this week to having indecent images of children. the culture secretary is calling on the bbc

to reclaim £200,000 in salary that mr edward received from the broadcaster between his arrest in november and his resignation in november and his resignation in april this year. meanwhile, a former intelligence officer from the national crime agency has been jailed for 18 months for viewing hundreds of indecent images of children on his work computer. the court heard how his job gave adam taylor, from essex access to the dark web, although his area of work covered drugs and firearms. the 40 year old admitted the charges dating between 2019 and 2022. we've heard tonight that 96 migrants are suing the uk government , migrants are suing the uk government, claiming migrants are suing the uk government , claiming they were government, claiming they were badly treated at the manston processing centre in kent, their lawyers claim the group were unlawfully detained between september and november of 2022, with allegations also including a lack of access to hygiene products, forced removal of huabs products, forced removal of hijabs and reportedly inadequate conditions for children and pregnant women. the home office, though, hasn't yet filed a

defence. and finally, some good news from the olympics. two silver medals in the pool have added to team gb's success in paris today. ben proud came second in the men's 50 metre freestyle, while duncan scott was runner up in the men's 200 metre individual medley, and it follows three golds today, taking the total now to 27 medals and putting gb fifth in the table. meanwhile, the news in the last half hour from the bmx semi—finals , it appears that bmx semi—finals, it appears that kai white has been taken to hospital after a crash. he had of course been a medal hope coming into the final stages of the competition. reports at this stage, though, suggesting he is okay but has been taken for further checks. those are the latest gb news headlines for now i'm sam francis much more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone , sign direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com >> forward slash alerts .

>> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> good evening. happy friday one and all. now i've always said that the one good thing about woke is that it contains within it the seeds of its own destruction. enter stage left imane khelif someone with some key genetic characteristics of a biological male pummelling a female boxer in the ring. if you thought that there is a war against women, their sex based rights and their safety, look no further than a female athlete almost having her nose broken with the first right hook at the hands of , to all intents and hands of, to all intents and purposes, a bloke . but what purposes, a bloke. but what would you expect from these dreadful olympics? the most right on woke games ever. having offended 2.6 billion christians

around the world with a piss take of the last supper and jesus christ replaced by an obese drag queen. the events in paris have captured in a short few days everything that is going wrong in the western world. imani khalife may have a complex backstory and genetic abnormalities. it's not an easy situation, but this is an individual with very high levels of testosterone and x y chromosomes, and someone who, in the past has failed a gender to test prove themselves a woman. but that doesn't bother the ioc on their watch, she her gets to punch an actual biological woman in the name of sport. so how did that work out then? well, the italian female boxer angela carini had to withdraw from the match and relinquish her hopes of olympic gold in less than a minute. that's right. her dream was gone in seconds. she said

that she'd never been hit so hard, and the blows were so powerful. she literally feared for her life . but the numpty for her life. but the numpty olympic organisers, who would struggle to get you drunk in a brewery, were more concerned about fairness to khalife, who identifies as a female of course she does. people are turning themselves inside out trying to explain this individual's genden explain this individual's gender. well, the last time i checked, a biology textbook, if you have high levels of testosterone and a masculine physique and x y chromosomes at the very least you are not a woman and therefore you have no place in the ring . where is the place in the ring. where is the safety for women ? where is the safety for women? where is the duty of care? where is the fairness of an obvious physical advantage? people point out that khalife fought in the tokyo olympics four years ago. well, that was a mistake too. they say

she lost. i don't care. two wrongs don't make a right in the end . there are just two end. there are just two biological sexes. something the world and especially mad woke progressives captured by a bonkers ideology, seem to have forgotten. but don't take my word for it. here is the world's most respected fertility expert , most respected fertility expert, doctor robert winston, speaking on the bbc question time show. enjoy! >> i will say this categorically that you cannot change your sex, your sex actually is there in every single cell in the body. >> you have a chromosomal sex, you have genetic sex, you have hormonal sex, you have all sorts of different kinds of psychological brain sex. they're all different. and we are very confused about this. unfortunately aren't we? >> indeed. hopefully the sheer madness of what is playing out at the olympics will wake people up to the lunacy of this strange religion, this ungodly cult that says you can change your sex or

identify by any number of genders or no genders based upon your mood that day. we are all punch drunk from listening to this nonsense. it's time to deliver a knockout blow to woke ideology. the gloves are off. let's get reaction now from my top pundits . this evening we top pundits. this evening we have journalist and author harriet sargeant, former bbc chief political correspondent john sargeant and entrepreneur and social commentator joanna joana jarjue. listen, i'm showing my age takes me half an hour to get across the studio now. great to see you all. harriet, let me start with you. this is a complex story, isn't it? because this individual is not a trans woman as such. but it's my view. she has no place in the ring opposite a woman. >> well, i quite agree. i mean, we've had progressives, stop punch and judy shows, which i used to watch as a child because it's apparently about domestic abuse. and here we have punch

and judy, you know, on the olympic stage for everyone to see. and punching up a woman suddenly becomes sort of acceptable entertainment and acceptable entertainment and acceptable competition. and i thought what you just said earlier was absolutely right. i mean, it is very simple. it comes down to whether you're x or x, y, and most importantly, it comes down to puberty. because when boys go through puberty, they get an advantage. they get to become 90% stronger than girls . they get 75% more than girls. they get 75% more mass in their upper body, right muscle mass, and all the rest of it. which means that the weakest man has a punch that has two and a half times the force of the strongest woman . so there is no strongest woman. so there is no level playing field , and it is level playing field, and it is very dangerous. >> joanna, i mean, i don't know if you caught this 62nd boxing match, but i thought it was a

horror show and i don't think it should have happened. >> i mean, it is a horror show. any boxing show, to be honest to me, is a horror show. but i think that, this really shouldn't be weaponised against this individual, actually, because let's be real, you've clarified that it's not a transgender situation. this is somebody who was born a woman. and some of the tests that have been done before have said that she's had high levels of testosterone, but actually, seven in every 1000 professional female athletes have really high testosterone. and this is the type of thing. and people have been saying this for a while, that this whole transgender argument is then going to get spun and weaponized against actual cisgendered women, which means you're actually born a woman, which a woman which this individual was born as, and also intersex women as well. and realistically, i don't think that , you know, it's as realistically, i don't think that, you know, it's as far as what people are trying to make it out to be as a woman. >> why don't you care about women's safety? >> because she is a woman. if it was another situation , she is was another situation, she is a woman. it's not a transgender. why? >> how could she be a woman?

>> how could she be a woman? >> she doesn't. she doesn't fulfil the threshold of a female biological woman. >> a woman . you can't be with an ex—wife. >> but she was born a woman. >> but she was born a woman. >> she wasn't. >> she wasn't. >> she was born. you don't change your chromosomes. >> and also, can i just make . >> and also, can i just make. >> and also, can i just make. >> can i just make a really, really important point? so this whole thing about her having x y chromosomes was because she did. no, it's okay, but let let me let me just make this point the accusation of her having x y chromosomes hasn't actually been proven yet. this is something from a test that she was doing. and for the world championships, which disqualified her both for apparently having x, y chromosomes and also for having high levels of testosterone . but high levels of testosterone. but without the proof, i actually think it's really dangerous to have somebody who is an algerian woman and let's be clear that in algeria is both illegal to be gay and transgender. and we're basically just weaponizing this against this woman when if it's about testosterone as well, she had a dna test and the dna test showed that. but you have no proof of that, though.

>> this individual, this individual presents, this individual presents, this individual presents, this individual presents as a biological male. how would you feel about a system they don't present as a biological she her physical manifestation, her biology is akin to a male because she has xy chromosomes and high levels of testosterone, and high levels of testosterone, and a very masculine physique as well. so here's a question i've got for you. how would you feel about a sister of yours or a female best friend? facing someone that presents as a male in a boxing ring? would you be comfortable with that? >> but the thing is, she's not presenting. she's she's not presenting. she's she's not presenting as a male. that's what i'm saying to you. she's not as a female, but she is she's she's qualified female. >> if you've got x y chromosomes. do i have to play the robert winston tape? >> oh, yes. >> oh, yes. >> she is a female. the international olympic committee have said that she's a female. she was born a female. her documentation says that she's a female. if she was born as anything else. right. based on these x y chromosomes, that apparently let me just reiterate, we still don't have proof for. right? if she was born as a if she if she was born

as a male, then she would now be classified as a transgender female. and she hasn't. she's woman. >> unmasculine and just kept you know, i you know, i just think the rose between two thorns. no, i think we need a bit of wisdom now, don't we? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> we waited. i think we want a bit of wisdom. no, the key point seems to be extraordinary that this gender test, we're not told what the details are. now, tony blair had a very simple idea that, in fact, if you have a cervix, you're a woman. if you have a penis, you're a man. now people may think, oh, that's rather obvious, isn't it ? but rather obvious, isn't it? but what's extraordinary is that this now seems strange. and other people then said, oh yeah, no, we all, we always thought that. and then we're suddenly in this world of the ioc world, which seems to be completely different. no, no, you have to have a gender test and you have to have testosterone. then you have to have this. you have that. you say, wait a moment, can we not go back to this very simple idea is what is biologically a man and what is biologically a man and what is biologically a man and what is biologically a woman. now you can have arguments about gender

and what people feel about it, and what people feel about it, and what people feel about it, and what they then what they would like to be, what how they would like to be, what how they would like to identify. but if you're talking about straightforward male female characteristics as robert winston, brilliant man, of course points out , this is a course points out, this is a test. it's one of the easiest tests in biology. joanna briefly, if you can, is her opponent lying when she said, i've never been hit so hard in my life and the match ended in less than 60s. >> i mean, maybe it's the hardest punch that she's ever had in her life, and maybe the, this individual from algeria was the best opponent, the best opponent that she had. >> like i was saying, this isn't something that is, like, unique to this person. i did say at the beginning of this, seven in every thousand professional females have higher testosterone levels . if you've been through levels. if you've been through menopause, your testosterone levels spike up. if you have pcos, you spike. >> but why don't we give them the details of the test? >> this is not. but this is the thing and i think it's dangerous. last, last point. >> no, i'm sorry i keep repeating, but we have been

given details. dna test is very simple. i don't understand why there's sort of any mystery about it. well. >> well, no, because they they pass the gender test and they failed the gender test. >> people like me, they think, wait a moment. can we just sort this bit out briefly ? this bit out briefly? >> briefly? joanna, wouldn't you on the side of caution? i mean, why are you taking a bullet for this individual if she may have killed that italian boxer yesterday, >> i wouldn't go that far, but i would absolutely go that far. >> if the fight ended. unless less than 60s. i don't want to imagine how it would have gone oven imagine how it would have gone over. it was a horrible. >> can i just say it was a horrible the actual scene? >> can i just. can we just can we just go back to the actual scene, which most of us saw? yeah. 46 seconds. it was absolutely horrendous. you thought, here's this woman being punched in the face. >> and if it was two men that were boxing and someone had a knockout, everybody, all of the boxing fans at home would be saying, wow, what a knockout. what an amazing athlete. what an amazing athlete . have you? have amazing athlete. have you? have you all wondered? sorry. have you all wondered? sorry. have you , have you all, have you all you, have you all, have you all wondered why? i don't know how

old this woman is, but let's say she's 30 years old. why her entire life, all her documentation has said female. so. okay. >> joanna. finish. >> joanna. finish. >> have we wondered why all of her documentation for all of her life has said female ? life has said female? >> i guess she's had female algeria, which, as you said, if you're in fact gay or trans, you're in fact gay or trans, you're in fact gay or trans, you're in trouble. you'll be in prison. so, you know, if you say what is the reason? the most obvious conclusion from those a long way away from it, is that she's thought this is the only way. >> she has been competing for years in the women's category, and she's always been a woman. until somebody has actual proof, i don't. >> you're concerned about a fellow woman, a sister in the ring. >> oh, don't don't don't play that game with a fellow sister. >> i don't think you have a duty of care towards other women potentially in the ring, facing someone that presents as a biological male, as a woman. if that doesn't bother you, i'm. >> you know. >> you know. >> no, actually, do you know what would be of risk if actually it's about the testosterone levels and if it was skyrocketing testosterone

levels, but again, there are other women. there were other women . so what? but like there women. so what? but like there were other women, but there were other women who also have a similar biological makeup in terms of testosterone touching people. >> they're running. >> they're running. >> if you're a running and you've got this tetris, you really should stop demonising this woman . this woman. >> big trouble with matthew. crack a ring and you've got to pay crack a ring and you've got to pay the bills. >> someone can i say what final point ? point? >> no, i mean, if you're if you are an athlete and you're a runner, all right, then you'll win your race. but you're not actually all right. >> you you locked out. >> you you locked out. >> sorry. you locked out every woman that has pcos and menopause and higher testosterone levels that they're not really a woman and they shouldn't compete in certain sports. >> they've got crazy, they've got xx, xy chromosomes, and what if they've got female genitalia? if you can't give me 10s okay i can, can i just say something? >> can i say something honestly ? >> can i say something honestly? you two you really do get it. women fighting each other in the boxing ring is nothing like this. yes, exactly. can i, as a pure as a as a poor, pathetic man, can i now enter this? now look, the point about it is

surely is the most of the sporting bodies around the world are sorting this out. they may have been slow, but they are now sorting it out. they're agreeing that in fact, you can't have this position where men who are genuinely more powerful. so the ioc must sort themselves out. and to have a british spokesman speaking for them, i find embarrassing. well there you go. >> well, listen, this point, there you go. >> show's all about opinions. what's yours? gbnews.com/yoursay in a statement last night, the paris 2024 boxing unit and international olympic committee have said we've seen in reports misleading information about two female athletes competing at the olympic games. the two athletes have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women's category . as the women's category. as i pointed out in my monologue, including the olympic games , including the olympic games, tokyo 2020, aiba world championships and eba sanctioned tournaments, the ioc is committed to protecting the human rights of all athletes participating in the olympic games. the ioc is saddened by

the abuse that the two athletes are currently receiving. i think you'll find it was the italian that was abused in the ring, but there you go. coming up, culture secretary lisa nandy has a clear message for bbc fallen star huw edwards huw edwards ought to return the salary, i think, having been arrested on such serious charges , so is lisa serious charges, so is lisa nandy right ? serious charges, so is lisa nandy right? the disgraced former face of bbc news huw edwards should return his bumper taxpayer funded salary after admitting child abuse. image charges. i'll be joined by a top tv executive about whether he'll do the right thing . but up next, do the right thing. but up next, as police prepare for more potential riots across the country this weekend, did sir keir starmer strike the right tone in his address to the nafion tone in his address to the nation yesterday in response both to the immediate challenge, which is clearly driven by far right hatred, far right are a reaction to fear, to discomfort, to unease . or did he fail to

to unease. or did he fail to properly address the legitimate concerns of the british people? we'll hear from both sides. sparks will fly. kind of the mood of the show tonight.

next. coming up, should huw edwards return the £200,000 salary he was paid after his arrest? but has sir keir starmer failed to

properly address the concerns of the british people? it's time for our head to head . so the pm for our head to head. so the pm yesterday told any potential rioters that the authorities will be watching you . however, will be watching you. however, despite the warnings, it seems the weekend of planned protests have begun across the uk in sunderland tonight there was a stand off between police and protesters outside a mosque where officers had stones and beer cans thrown at them. there were continued reports that an overturned car has been set on fire, while police in riot gear have come under sustained attack as rioters set off fire extinguishers against them. in his downing street press conference, sir keir starmer raged at far right plotters , raged at far right plotters, which he said were moving from to community community. but reform uk leader nigel farage claimed that starmer is blind to a bigger issue at play now. >> the far right are a reaction to fear , to discomfort, to

to fear, to discomfort, to unease that is out there, shared by tens of millions of people. let me be clear, i don't support street violence. i don't support thuggery in any way at all. but i'm worried not just about the events in southport, but about societal decline that is happening in our country. >> so did sir keir starmer fail to properly address british people's concerns? let me know your thoughts gbnews.com/yoursay or tweet us @gbnews and do vote in the poll. going head to head tonight are former police sergeant harry tange and director of the sanctuary foundation, doctor krish kandiah. doctor kandiah, thank you so much forjoining us. do you so much forjoining us. do you think that sir keir starmer, the new prime minister, struck the new prime minister, struck the right tone? was he was he right to mention the far right and extremists ? and extremists? >> i think he did strike the right tone. i think the main thing he did was to support the police, who have been incredibly brave. first of all, they were the ones that stopped the terrible attack that killed

these three beautiful children . these three beautiful children. and then very quickly, they had to defend themselves from being attacked by a gang. i think thugs is the word that's been used. hooligans they've been attacking hundreds of police officers around the country. and what the prime minister said is he wanted the police forces to work more closely together. that makes a lot of sense to me. he's also said that he's going to go after the disinformation that's been spread online, and some of our well—known mps who have spoken up for the far right have actually been retweeting wrong information . information. >> doctor, who are those? who are those mps that have spoken up for the far right? >> well, you just played a little clip where you had nigel farage defending the far right . farage defending the far right. >> when did he defend? when has he ever defended the far right? he finds the far right right despicable. he is a mainstream politician. he's the leader of a political party that's just earned 4.1 million votes at the general election . general election. >> he just gave an explanation for why he has sympathy with

them. >> well, do you think, doctor kandiah, that people are right to be angry about illegal immigration or current levels of legal net migration ? legal net migration? >> i think what we're all right to be angry about is that three children were killed and blaming muslims by attacking mosques, yes, is completely an exploitation of that horrible event. absolutely, absolutely. be angry about. >> absolutely. you're quite right on that one. harry tangye , right on that one. harry tangye, what do you think about this story and about sir keir starmer's position on the riots ? starmer's position on the riots? >> oh, he led a good, good chance. go, didn't he really, i don't think he's helped the police at all. i think he's been part of the major problem because what he's said is that this whole thing is all about yobs and thuggery, and there's no message behind it. they've just got they just want to demolish towns and throw bricks at cops. now let's get this straight. first of all, i was in the police for 30 years. these are my friends and colleagues.

don't throw bricks at my cops. thank you very much . i, i don't throw bricks at my cops. thank you very much. i, i i'm very fond of them. it is not them who makes the decisions. it's the politicians and it's their bosses . and if you think their bosses. and if you think there's two tier policing, it's not the front line cops that make those decisions. leave them alone. they're just normal family men and women, many of which probably have sympathies with you. now we've got three quarters of a million of net immigration into this country every year from the tories and labour seem to be, according to those masses out there, relaxing the whole thing of this. now, if you have a lot more unvetted young men in the country from different cultures , i think different cultures, i think everyone must agree. statistically speaking, you're going to get a lot more crime because they're not all vetted. so you don't know who they are, and they drive past these plumbers and electricians drive past huge hotels with people. i've done it myself and they're in new tracksuits, mobile phones. they're all men . and phones. they're all men. and they think, well, i'm paying for those and i can't. i can't heat the house, i can't put food on the house, i can't put food on the table. and so they're turning to the mainstream media.

forget it. no impartiality whatsoever. they're told they're they're far right. they're turning to the government and they're voting. and they see there's the voting system is completely unfair. they see this two tier policing because the bosses and the politicians are too afraid to deal with people who are a different colour. look, let me make this clear. my girlfriend, who is the sweetest, lovely, most gentle person in the world, is a muslim. she's arab, muslim, and so. and i'm thinking, you've got to listen to the bigger picture out there. this thuggery is the is the is the is the tip of the iceberg. there's a lot of people who aren't into violence. they don't want to go on these violent marches. but you will always get the tip that shines through. but the tip that shines through. but the message is still there. and he ignored it. >> indeed. and i think you didn't answer my question , didn't answer my question, doctor candy, i asked you whether it was reasonable for people to be angry about illegal immigration, which is currently costing the country £8 million a day in accommodation costs

alone, and legal net migration of 700,000 in a year. that's a town about the size of leeds annually. are people right? and is it understandable, or at least that they're angry about it ? it? >> look, i'm up for a grown up conversation about immigration. >> second time you haven't answered my question. >> i'm up for that conversation. but look, these these riots are in response to a dreadful attack in response to a dreadful attack in southport that should be the centre of this. >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it'sjust. >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it's just. and >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it'sjust. and i >> it's just a catalyst station. >> it's just. and i want to say, harry, i'm so grateful for your service as a police officer. and i'm seeing brave police officers get caught in the middle of it. okay the families of the victims do not want this violence. they are not being honoured that these three girls that have been killed, they are not being honoured by this. in fact, the other children who were from that community are more scared by the riots than the attack. >> and, and on that, on that we can agree. >> doctor candia, thank you so much for joining >> doctor candia, thank you so much forjoining us. a fascinating conversation. that is doctor chris candia, the

director of the sanctuary foundation , and former police foundation, and former police sergeant harry tanguy, a fascinating debate, of course, opinions split on this, but what do you think? well, 91% of you agree that the prime minister did not address the british people's concerns. 9% disagree, coming up, the enhanced games or doping olympics hopes that it's juiced up. athletes will smash usain bolt's record when it launches next year. but is it just a dangerous gimmick? former british olympian mara yamauchi weighs in on that. and the woke olympic gender boxing madness soon. but next, culture secretary lisa nandy has a clear message for huw edwards. >> huw edwards ought to return the salary, i think, having been arrested on such serious charges, should he hand back the money, i'll be speaking to a top tv executive

next. >> well, breaking tonight this just in the teen at the centre of the sex pics scandal that to led huw edwards downfall has spoken publicly for the first time to the daily mirror newspaper . the man whose gender newspaper. the man whose gender we can now reveal , newspaper. the man whose gender we can now reveal, aged 21 but who was a vulnerable teenager when edwards first asked him for explicit photos and messages, has said the following. speaking exclusively to the paper, he

said i've stayed silent for so long to protect hugh, but i feel sick at what has happened. the man, who wishes to remain anonymous , says he feels feels anonymous, says he feels feels like huw edwards has groomed him now extraordinarily, huw edwards is likely to keep his rumoured £300,000 gold plated pension, funded by taxpayers and those forced to fork out almost £170 a yearin forced to fork out almost £170 a year in the licence fee. that's in addition to the £200,000 salary he picked up after he was arrested in november for accessing indecent images of children. here is the culture secretary, lisa nandy. view huw edwards ought to return the salary. >> i think , having been arrested >> i think, having been arrested on such serious charges, all the way back in november , to way back in november, to continue to receive that salary. all the way through until he resigned is wrong and is not a good use of taxpayers money. i think most people in the country

would agree with that. but obviously, whether he does that or not is up to him. >> well, i'm delighted to say that. >> joining me now is former chief executive of channel five and an ex producer at the bbc, david elstein. david, first of all, your first reaction to this breaking news that the alleged vulnerable youngster referred to in those original set of allegations a year ago against huw edwards, has spoken out . huw edwards, has spoken out. >> well, it was always a matter of time before that was going to happen, and it just reminds us that the bbc was already on notice, >> all the way back to the whole sun story. but there was a real problem with huw edwards, and they're also getting internal complaints about his behaviour. so it makes it all the more inexplicable, that when, tim davie, the director general and debbie furness turness, the chief executive of bbc news,

were told the nature of the accusations against huw edwards back in november, but they did nothing about it. they didn't call him in and say, what's going on, what have you done? what are the charges you're going to face? how are you going to plead, are you planning to resign now or do i need to fire you? that's what should have happened back in november. it's a complete red herring for lisa nandy. now, to say that hugh wedgwood should give the money back.i wedgwood should give the money back. i mean, she's completely missing the point. this was the responsibility of bbc management. and yet again , they management. and yet again, they failed to get to grips with a problem involving senior talent working within the bbc. and we've had 5 or 6 examples of that over the last 10 to 12 years. we've had inquiries into jimmy savile, inquiries into stuart hall, and there's an

inquiry into the tim westwood affair that's cost £3 million and is still sitting inside the bbc. they haven't done, they haven't published it, they haven't published it, they haven't done anything about it. the bbc seems to be culturally incapable of making firm decisions in the interests of the licence fee payer. >> well, is it behaving like the roman catholic church, circling the wagons and protecting its own? >> well, there is an element of and we saw this with the martin bashir affair, where the senior executives protected him, not least to protect themselves. and i guess psychologically, they kind of imagine themselves as counterparts of their top presenters and therefore identify with them and won't intervene when they need to, but for it to happen five times in a row and still they don't learn. the lesson is really remarkable. >> and of course, newsnight were

forced by the bbc management to pull an expose of jimmy savile because it coincided with the great celebrations of his career. there are definite unfortunate historic echoes of this story, david, but let's hear from the director general. here's what he had to say when someone is arrested, there's no charges. >> also, another factor at this point was very significant duty of care considerations. i think it was right for us to say, look, we'll let the police do their business. and then when charges happen, we will act . charges happen, we will act. >> david, briefly, if you can, should huw edwards pay a financial price for his crimes? there is a rumoured £300,000 a year gold plated pension and the small matter of 200 grand. he earned after he was suspended . earned after he was suspended. >> his pension goes back 40 years, you don't hand back your entire whatever it was . £4

entire whatever it was. £4 million pension pot because you've now resigned from the bbc andindeed you've now resigned from the bbc and indeed should have been fired. the 200,000 is entirely down to tim davie. it's nothing to do with hugh, but tim davie should have taken the decision when he did. he failed to do so when he did. he failed to do so when he did. he failed to do so when he talks about there hadn't been charges, he was told what the charges were going to be and that they were extremely serious. he chose to do nothing. yet when , cliff richard was yet when, cliff richard was suspected by south yorkshire police of some ancient, child abuse crime, the bbc long before he was charged because he was never charged, hired a helicopter to film his apartment whilst the south yorkshire police executed a search warrant. honestly, the hypocrisy , warrant. honestly, the hypocrisy, is just dismaying. and the incompetence is also really upsetting. if i were a licence fee payer and i am, i'd be

pretty cheesed off with the way the bbc management has handled this. it's not hughes fault that he was paid the 200,000. it can't be his fault that he's got a pension. the bbc management is acting on our behalf. let them do so . do so. >> david. >> david. >> deeply grateful for your time. former chief executive of channel five television and former top producer at the bbc, who is raging about the management's handling of that situation . coming up. remember situation. coming up. remember when prince harry said this just two weeks ago? >> the reasons why i won't bring my wife back to this country? >> yes, indeed. but he's happy taking meghan to crime ridden colombia , which has one of the colombia, which has one of the highest murder rates in the world. i'll be tackling the duke and duchess of double standards at 10:00. you won't want to miss it. but next, the enhanced olympic games athletes full of all the hormones you can think of competing to a level. will that work? find out

next. harry and meghan's wild double standards. you won't want to miss it at ten, but welcome back. no olympic games passes without a good dose of doping controversy. today, australian coach brett hawke said chinese swimmer pan zanla's world record win in paris was not humanly possible, as china's athletes come under scrutiny for alleged doping. well, what if all the athletes were superhuman themselves , juiced up to their themselves, juiced up to their eyeballs with as many chemicals as they wanted? that is the dream for the enhanced games, which plans its first edition next year, where there will be no drug testing, it will be a pharmaceutical free for all, a bit like the gb news christmas party with participants free to pump juice and dope. however they see fit. plenty say it shouldn't happen, but its founder, aaron de souza, argues the games are doing something

truly extraordinary that is shaping the future. well, to discuss this, i'm delighted to welcome an incredible athlete in her own right . former british her own right. former british olympian mara yamauchi. mara, thank you so much for joining us. what do you think about the idea of an olympics where you can take as many medications as you like ? you like? >> i think it's a nonsense idea, and to be honest, i'm not sure it's even going to go ahead, >> i mean, one of the reasons why doping , why the anti—doping why doping, why the anti—doping system exists is because doping is unsafe. it's dangerous for athletes health. it's not only about fairness. and the enhanced games are claiming that this is going to be the safest competition ever. well, it won't be if athletes are doping. that's that's really dangerous. >> it'll be the fastest though, won't it? and great entertainment. >> well, we don't know. >> well, we don't know. >> i mean, you know, you can't just dope on the day of a competition, the effects of doping , you competition, the effects of doping, you have to do over a penod doping, you have to do over a period of time and you know, i can't see any of the world's

best athletes or very few signing up for it, because if they go there and dope, they won't be able to return to their sports. they'll be serving serving bans for breaking the doping rules. >> isn't it more honest, given that so much doping already happens ? happens? >> no, i don't think it's honest. i think we have to stick with the system. we have. and i mean, the answer to that is that the anti—doping authorities need to need to clamp down more in my own event, the marathon, the women's marathon, you know, doping is a very serious problem . doping is a very serious problem. and the national and global anti—doping authorities just need to need to clamp down on it. >> well, i think you win the argument with the principle of the health and the safety of the athletes involved. of course, this doping is absolutely disastrous for the body. it's a big experiment that could cause cancen big experiment that could cause cancer, could shorten your life. i absolutely agree. let's hear, though, from the founder of the enhanced games, aaron de souza, who says we're doing something truly extraordinary, something that's shaping the future bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right. adults with free,

informed consent should be able to do with their body what they wish. individuals should be able to make risk decisions for themselves. now, mara, before we 90, themselves. now, mara, before we go, can i just ask you about your thoughts on a boxer who presents as a biological male fighting a woman in the ring? >> so this isn't about presenting, two boxers in the paris olympics in the women's category have twice failed sex tests. they they were shown in those tests to have x, y, as in male chromosomes, my view is it's very dangerous and unfair, the ioc are allowing it their, their criteria for inclusion in their criteria for inclusion in the female category appears to only be female in your passport. they have no rules about having a male body, so it's very serious. and i think the ioc have completely brought the games and boxing into disrepute by allowing males into the female category . female category. >> why do you think the ioc have

allowed this to happen? >> i think they've been captured by extreme gender identity ideology. i mean, they produced this document last november, a framework in which they said there's no presumption of advantage. well, the entire history of sport tells us that males have advantages over females. this is very clear in all sports. so i think they've been captured by this ideology and they need to get back to reality. they need to listen to scientists like doctor emma hilton and doctor ross tucker and others who who know all this stuff inside out. they need to get away from ideology and most importantly, they need to restore fair and safe sport for females. this is very misogynistic, to be honest . misogynistic, to be honest. >> does this feel like a tipping point to you ? point to you? >> i hope it will be. i mean, the scenes we saw angela carini, the scenes we saw angela carini, the italian boxer, yesterday, collapsing in tears on the, you know, on the mat after facing a

male in the ring. this has become global news. people are horrified by it. totally understandably, and i hope it will be the breaking point for this awful ideology , and that this awful ideology, and that the ioc will change course and return to sex testing and fairness for female athletes. >> let me say it's been the deepest privilege to have you on the show. my profound thanks to british olympian mara yamauchi. thank you, mara . bold and brave thank you, mara. bold and brave words and i think important words. of course, there is a flip side to this. many would argue that the ioc simply want to accommodate people who identify by a different gender. i know it's complex. there is a grey area regarding this person's biology, but my last guest there, mara yamauchi, very clear that that particular boxer is a biological male. why are we even debating this? it's strange, isn't it? because the woke were telling us during the pandemic to follow the science. now they've given it up. anyway, harry and meghan are back. i'll be dealing with them in no

uncertain terms. they won't come to britain because it's dangerous. so they're off to colombia. make it, make sense . colombia. make it, make sense. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> good evening. here's your gb news weather from the met office. it is going to be relatively warm. not as hot as it has been, but warm and sunny at times through much of this weekend though, there will be some rain pushing through initially. we have a front making its way southeastwards through this evening and overnight that's already brought quite a bit of rain across scotland and northern ireland, but it's now clearing these areas and so here it is going to turn mostly dry overnight, with some clear skies for england and wales, though, turning increasingly cloudy and there will be some outbreaks of rain around. where we have the cloud, temperatures aren't going to drop much. another warm night to come, but quite a bit fresher across scotland and northern ireland, dropping into single

figures, particularly in more rural spots. but first thing tomorrow across many parts of england and wales it is going to be a bit grey. initially there will be some outbreaks of rain around and worth bearing in mind. some of the rain could be a little bit heavy at times, a bit brighter first thing across nonh bit brighter first thing across north wales and much of northern england, though, some cloud here and there. a brighter start for scotland and northern ireland. just a couple of showers starting to feed their way in from the west as we go through the morning. eastern scotland getting off to a lovely fine start to the day with plenty of sunshine here. those showers though, across western parts of scotland and northern ireland, will become more widespread here as we go through the afternoon, and some heavy ones are quite likely. meanwhile, across southern southeastern parts of england here we will have some bursts of rain through the day and these could be heavy at times before they clear away later. elsewhere, a good deal of dry, bright and sunny weather and with temperatures, albeit not as high as they have been getting into the mid 20s, it will feel warm in any sunshine. sunday should get off to a fairly fine start, albeit a fresher start than of late for

many of us before some wetter weather starts to push its way in from the northwest and this is likely to bring some heavy rain as we go into the beginning of next week. so do watch out for some high rainfall totals, particularly across northern and western parts. i'll see you again soon. bye bye. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

>> good evening. it is 10:00. this is patrick christys tonight with me, mark dolan and breaking whilst we're on air. images onune whilst we're on air. images online this evening are showing a fire at the sunderland central police office as violent protests continue in the city. has this new labour government and our new prime minister, sir keir starmer, lost control of the streets. starmer spoke about

the streets. starmer spoke about the far right. there are community tensions, is law and order falling apart in this country? i'll get full reaction from tonight's top pundits. also this evening we broke our promise to the british to public deliver controlled and reduced migration. so is robert jenrick, the man to save the tories from oblivion? i'll be sitting down with former conservative minister paul scully shortly. paul scully plus this. >> there's not that much i can say , but i'm nothing like i was. say, but i'm nothing like i was. >> this is an incredible story. i'll be meeting the woman who developed a swedish accent despite never visiting the country. she wants to raise awareness of foreign accent syndrome and as always , syndrome and as always, tomorrow's front pages with full pundh tomorrow's front pages with full pundit reaction . tonight, top pundit reaction. tonight, top journalist and author harriet sargeant, tv news legend john sergeant and entrepreneur and social commentator joana jarjue

and creepy joe strikes again. >> remember, no serious guys to your 30. god love you . your 30. god love you. >> absolutely. there are no words. the girl was 13 a busy houn words. the girl was 13 a busy hour. let's get to work . hour. let's get to work. disorder on the streets of britain. that's . next. britain. that's. next. >> mark, thank you very much . >> mark, thank you very much. and good evening to you. it's just after 10:00 and we'll start then with a recap of that breaking news mark mentioned there that a police station has been set on fire in sunderland as a weekend of planned protests appear to have begun across the uk. these are the latest pictures from the scene of that blaze in the centre of the city, with reports also of at least

two other vehicles also being overturned and set on fire as rioters have clashed with police officers. tonight, if you're watching on television, you can see here one of those overturned cars set ablaze and earlier police in riot gear also came under sustained attack as protesters set off fire extinguishers and threw rocks and bottles. you can just make out there in those pictures. the scenes of that attack against riot police covering themselves and shielding from the violence earlier, up to 200 people were heard shouting anti—islamic chants as well as mounted police and officers in vans took to the roads to traffic and keep the police. those rallies seem to have stemmed from misinformation onune have stemmed from misinformation online about the suspect of a stabbing spree on monday in southport. any more details throughout this evening we will of course bring to you here on gb news. meanwhile, the prime minister has visited southport for the second time this week to announce a package of support for the town during his visit

there this week, sir keir starmer praised the town's resilience and announced a mental health support and event to bolster local cohesion . to bolster local cohesion. meanwhile, in london, downing street has joined with landmarks across the north west. it lit up in pink and will do over the weekend. two in memory of the young girls killed in the southport knife attack . nine southport knife attack. nine year old alice dasilva aguiar, six year old bebe king and seven year old elsie dot stancombe were killed when a knifeman attacked them on monday. eight other children were also injured, along with two adults. turning to other news now, a mural of former newsreader huw edwards in his home village of carmarthenshire has been removed. the artwork has now been painted over, while institutions including bangor and cardiff universities are reviewing their ties with the x presenter. that's after he admitted accessing indecent images of children. the culture secretary, lisa nandy, is calling on the to bbc reclaim £200,000 of salary. mr edwards received between his arrest in november and his resignation in

april . prisoners who've been april. prisoners who've been released as part of an exchange between russia and the west have spoken of their burden that others are still in jail. it was the biggest exchange of prisoners since the cold war, and included jul russian british citizen vladimir kara—murza. he was detained following opposition of the invasion in ukraine. in exchange, eight russian prisoners were freed, including an assassin who was serving life in germany . we'll serving life in germany. we'll hean serving life in germany. we'll hear. meanwhile, 96 migrants are suing the uk government, claiming they were badly treated at the manston processing centre in kent. their lawyers claim the group were unlawfully detained between september and november of 2022, with allegations including lack of access to hygiene products , forced removal hygiene products, forced removal of hijabs and reportedly inadequate conditions for children and pregnant women. the home office , though, haven't yet home office, though, haven't yet filed a defence and finally, potentially some lighter news.

but perhaps not. if you're a fan of crumpets, they've been removed from supermarket shelves because reports they may contain pieces of metal. the food standards agency says certain batches of morrisons crumpets , batches of morrisons crumpets, with a best before date of either the 6th or 7th of august, could be unsafe to eat, and the warning also applies to the hovis brand, with those same dates . slightly concerning for dates. slightly concerning for mark dolan. i've seen him sneak a packet just now. those are the latest gb news headlines. for now i'm sam francis. more at 11:00 for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . gbnews.com forward slash alerts. >> thank you sam. well, a grave start to the hour. breaking news images online. this evening are showing a fire at the sunderland central police office as violent protests continue in the city.

these are the latest pictures from the scene of the blaze, with reports of at least two vehicles also being overturned and set fire to as rioters have clashed with officers. earlier this evening, there was a standoff between police and protesters outside a mosque where officers had stones and beer cans thrown at them. now police in riot gear have come under sustained attack as rioters set off fire extinguishers against them . this extinguishers against them. this is a developing situation . is a developing situation. members of the crowd are reported to have chanted in support of far right activist tommy robinson, whilst others shouted insults about islam. now this, of course, is a point previously made by the prime minister, keir starmer, about far right agitators travelling to certain places in order to cause trouble, including southport. course in the aftermath of the horrific murder of three little girls cars in the city centre, as i mentioned, have been targeted by the group.

mounted officers pushed back demonstrators, some of whom were in masks and locals in sunderland have been told to stay out of the city centre. northeast mayor kim mcguinness has spoken out. she said she was appalled by the scenes in sunderland. make no mistake, she said, if your response to tragedy is to use it to commit violence to abuse others, attack the police and damage property, you stand for nothing except thuggery, she goes on. you don't speak for sunderland, you don't speak for sunderland, you don't speak for sunderland, you don't speak for this region. a cinema in sunderland, the omniplex was also forced to close during the evening in the interest of pubuc evening in the interest of public and staff safety, look, this is a developing situation, here are pictures of scenes of absolute carnage at this police station , razed to the ground and station, razed to the ground and symptomatic of what we've seen elsewhere in the country in the aftermath of that attack on three innocent girls in

southport with me this evening. i've got journalist and author harriet sergeant, former bbc chief political correspondent john sergeant, and entrepreneur and social commentator joanna joana jarjue. joanna, a nasty pattern is emerging here, isn't it? >> yeah, a really nasty pattern. and unfortunately, you know, this is one of the terrible things really about the development of social media that misinformation spread so widely . misinformation spread so widely. and i know that a lot of people will say misinformation, what you're talking about, people are protesting about x, y, and z. but when we look at the protests earlier on in the week in southport, that was triggered a lot by misinformation and there would have been people, a chunk of people there who were protesting because they were just outraged and hurt and i guess expressing their grief in a different way. and there were other people who were there for a very specific reason that weren't even from southport. and this is earlier on in the week that were targeting things like, mosques, for example , that had mosques, for example, that had to be rebuilt. and then now you've got in another area in the country, people just and

this is what i don't understand. every single time that people riot like this, the country that you love so much and the country that you want to defend, you're now burning down a police, a police station, it makes no sense. you wake up the next day and then it's the people, the decent people in sunderland from that community that then have to go and volunteer and clean up, while you guys then probably sleep off your hangovers from the night before. >> john, far right activists or ordinary people worried about what they feel is a broken country? >> no, i think i rather agree with joanna very much that for the people in the areas this happenedin the people in the areas this happened in sheffield to the moment they were interviewed, they said, look, this is our area that's being wrecked . these area that's being wrecked. these area that's being wrecked. these are things that we depend upon. that bus in flames is our bus, which we're going to lose . so which we're going to lose. so there is a clear difference between the interests of the people in the area who know what's going to happen , which what's going to happen, which means that they will suffer more, not less. they don't believe in a revolution or

taking over a government. they just think, what about our area that's been wrecked? the outside agitators , therefore, quite agitators, therefore, quite reasonably, from the government's point of view, are the main source of interest. can we stop them going around the country because of course they have no interest at all, particularly in the locals. they want the agitation. they are professional agitators and they have a wonderful way of communicating on the social media. very easy for them to say sunderland's the next place, let's go there, let's wreck them. >> harriet sergeant, i mean, clearly there are people that have travelled to cause trouble. we condemn them in the highest order. but is it wrong to tar everyone that's concerned about our society with the same brush? >> yes, i do think so. and i think this is part of something far more fundamental. that has expressed itself in a way that none of us approve of or want, but which is of deep feeling that has tried to, through the

ballot box to get its way. and each time, i mean, you had brexit, you had the conservatives given a vast majority to control immigration. and what happened every time those i feel legitimate fears were just ignored and the immigration was on steroids, put on steroids, and people have tried and tried and have not been listened to and are now really angry. and i felt that keir starmer, i'm afraid, has only stoked this. i felt that the speech he gave a few days ago , did not calm things down. ago, did not calm things down. he should have made clear that we are all in front of the law. we are equal and that we all have to obey the law. but that is not the message that has come oven is not the message that has come over. i mean, for i example, live happened to live, near edgware road. and for the last nine months, every saturday we have had cavalcades of cars.

we've had people being shouting and chanting, screaming, anti—semitic. >> oh, i'm sorry, which has been deeply, sorry. wait a minute. sorry. are you saying are you dismissing. >> are you dismissing calls for intifada, which means suicide bombers on buses and on trains? >> oh , but, you know, let >> oh, but, you know, let harriet finish. harry had a tremendous. she's. yeah. this is harriet. >> finish your point. >> finish your point. >> harriet has gone on and on. no, no. >> can i say that i think you're both doing what the media and political elite are doing, which isignonng political elite are doing, which is ignoring the concerns of ordinary people. >> i finish your point. >> i finish your point. >> finish. because this has been said over and over again and all these things that there's two tier policing. this keeps on being brought up, and it's a deep sense of unfairness . and i deep sense of unfairness. and i have i have seen this every week . have i have seen this every week. >> joanna, how can you chuckle about the so called peace marches in which hateful anti—jewish slogans have gone unacknowledged by the police and not dealt with?

>> listen, how can you chuckle about that? the reason why i'm. i'm sorry . i'm sorry. >> let me actually let me actually clarify what i was chuckling at. i was chuckling at the irony of what was happening, of what, harriet was just saying, given the scenes that everybody is watching right now. i'm not saying that i don't condemn anybody who was as much as i condemn anybody who has anti, islamophobic chants, which is what we're seeing here as well in sunderland, other places around the country , and also in around the country, and also in the pro—palestine, protests as well, equally. but what i'm saying is that it's crazy that you even kind of bringing that as some sort of like equivalence to what the scenes that we're seeing right now. that's not to say that people chanting anti—semitic stuff in those protests, but why are you protecting why are you even bringing it to this level? >> finish your point and then why? >> why are you even bringing it to this level like it wasn't good enough? that and let's actually be, let's clarify that those chants and the people who were saying anti—semitic stuff were saying anti—semitic stuff were literally few and far between. right you are literally you are literally seeing a

projection of from the river to the sea. >> right? i see, wait a minute, but wait a minute. nobody else is allowed to speak. okay, can i ask one question? >> i rant on, but i mean, are you suggesting that this sunderland trouble is anti—semitic? for goodness sake ? anti—semitic? for goodness sake? >> no she's not. >> no she's not. >> you go on and on about all sorts of other issues. this is quite what's interesting is that the prime minister made it quite clear in his speech that there was a danger of more trouble because of people coming from outside. the prime minister is then condemned, wired and oh, he made a clear warning, said it's very important for the police to act against these outside agitators. we've got to have a special squad. we've got to be able to photograph people. we've got to make sure that they can cross police boundaries. why because there may be trouble. >> now there is trouble. wait, wait, wait. >> now there is trouble one at a time. >> because let me tell you, we can go live to downing street now. and in contrast, from the scenes of carnage, fire and disorder in sunderland to calm in downing street and a pink

glow and that's in tribute to the awful attack on monday in southport, and the three little girls who lost their lives, who were murdered in cold blood, attending a dance class. so that's downing street live. if you're just joining us, scenes of disorder and chaos in sunderland. sadly symptomatic of what we've seen earlier in the week. and you can see fire officers there trying to deal with this enormous inferno. i mean, essentially the police station has been razed to the ground. a major public hazard, reports of cars being overturned. this clearly the first major political headache for our new prime minister, sir keir starmer. we're going to get reaction to that from former conservative mp and minister paul scully. plus his thoughts on who should replace rishi sunak as leader of the conservatives but chaos on britain's streets r , that's

next. if you're just joining us breaking news this evening, images online are showing a major fire at the sunderland central police office as violent protests continue in the city. these are the latest devastating pictures from the scene of the blaze , with reports of at least blaze, with reports of at least two vehicles overturned and set on fire as rioters have clashed with officers in worrying

parallels with what happened in southport on tuesday in the aftermath of the murder of three little girls at a dance class at the start of the week. earlier this evening, there was a stand off between police and protesters outside a mosque where officers had stones and beer cans thrown at them. police in riot gear have come under sustained attack as rioters set off fire extinguishers against them. well, let's get more reaction to this very worrying and developing story. reaction to this very worrying and developing story . we're and developing story. we're joined by former conservative mp and government minister paul scully. paul, these are troubling scenes. what's your first reaction on that ? first reaction on that? >> good evening mark. yeah, it really is troubling. >> as you as you say, it's something that i've just fresh to and been catching up as i've been waiting to come on this evening. and it's absolutely horrendous because there's such a detachment from what is going on in westminster, what is going

on in westminster, what is going on here in sunderland, in hartlepool, before outside downing street and as you say, in southport, where it seemed in southport that people were coming out because they were describing it as, because of what happened in the, the stabbings. but then there were people that were fuelled with alcohol that were, you know , alcohol that were, you know, clearly being agitated , by clearly being agitated, by social media and by other people. and so it's going to be a lot of investigation that's going to need to be done. the what is stirring this up in the here and now and what we can do to quell it. >> indeed, clearly, there is a very nasty and malignant far right element. people who want trouble, who are travelling to these areas to hijack what ultimately, certainly relating to monday was a tragedy. there is also the genuine concern of ordinary brits about illegal immigration and quite unsustainable in many people's view. levels of legal net migration, is it wrong to conflate the two? is it either

or? what's behind this anger and this chaos? >> i mean, what you know, if you look in, past history, i remember the croydon riots, the tottenham riots, croydon riots and other parts of the country back in. i think it's 2011 and it happened at a similar time of year. it happened at a similar time of year . it was a it happened at a similar time of year. it was a hot summer. i remember travelling back from houday remember travelling back from holiday to find i'd not far from croydon, a load of shops being looted. at that time it seemed to be a couple of events that then, really inflamed tension around the country in particular communities. so i think there's a lot of things going on here. i don't think you can conflate the two. but one thing that that southport, tragedy seem to have , southport, tragedy seem to have, you know, brought people out because of the agitation around social media and some of the fake information that was going out that has then led to tensions on other issues , as you tensions on other issues, as you say, about migration, people shouting, i want my country back. clearly this is not the country we want back , so they

country we want back, so they don't represent normal , people don't represent normal, people that are really concerned about migration , that want to tackle migration, that want to tackle both illegal and legal migration to make sure we can control it properly . properly. >> indeed, look, you have to condemn this violence, this disorder , wholeheartedly. tens disorder, wholeheartedly. tens of police officers were badly injured in southport. there may well be injuries in sunderland. you've got firefighters now deaung you've got firefighters now dealing with arson, a terrible fire at a police station , scenes fire at a police station, scenes of destruction, appalling , of destruction, appalling, unforgivable, unacceptable . unforgivable, unacceptable. where do we go from here as a country, paul, >> well, it's awful because it sounds like from what i understand, in southport, there were people that police officers that had the day before been traumatised themselves because they were they found the scene of those, dead and injured children that were then having to defend themselves against rioters. >> you've got 11 year old,

child, i understand that's been accused of setting light to a, to a vehicle. you've got the police off a police station there ablaze, and we've seen that happen, you know, we've really got to make sure that we can come down on this hard, but we've got to understand. but we've got to understand. but we've also got to actually make sure that we're not inflaming the situation by just having this division in conversation from whitehall, from westminster, when you're actually you're just writing off actually you're just writing off a load of people as all being far right. this is being agitated by some people from the far right, but not everybody on those streets are in the far right. if you just dismiss them as that , is that something? as that, is that something? >> is that something that, sir keir starmer did? did he point the finger to exclusively at the far right? some people think that that is a distraction, that that that is a distraction, that thatis that that is a distraction, that that is cover for wider issues in our country. the that is cover for wider issues in our country . the political in our country. the political establishment aren't willing to face up to, i think look, i think there's a lot of issues that have been unspoken or not

spoken in depth enough over the last of last few years. >> you'll remember that i got into some trouble a few months ago because i was talking about no go areas, and, you know, when i talk, when i actually was talking about prejudice that we're not tackling because there's lots of the, political class that say, you know, there's nothing to see here. there's no problem. you're just. i'm just writing you off as, one of these agitators. of course, there's a problem . we can see there's a problem. we can see that now coming out in people's tension. people's anger. but that's been fuelled by agitators. it's been fuelled by alcohol. but there are . but alcohol. but there are. but behind that, there are people with legitimate concerns. and so we've got to make sure we can divide the two and actually hammer down really hard on these people that are creating the scenes that we're seeing on the screen at the moment. whilst tackling prejudice , whilst tackling prejudice, whilst tackling prejudice, whilst tackling migration and actually making sure the vast, vast majority of people who have concerns don't feel that they're getting attached to these people

in any way , shape or form. in any way, shape or form. >> now, paul, we got you on to talk about the tory leadership. but of course, this developing story has changed the agenda. and i do look forward to getting you back on to talk about the race for a replacement to rishi sunak, which will happen in november. but we really appreciate your considered thoughts on what a worrying scenes in the north east. my thanks to paul scully , former thanks to paul scully, former conservative minister, and of course the ex tory mp. thank you paul course the ex tory mp. thank you paul, we've got a statement now from yvette cooper, the home secretary, and she has said criminals attacking the police and stoking disorder on our streets will pay the price for their violence and thuggery. the police have the full backing of government to take the strongest possible action and ensure that they face the full force of the law. they do not represent britain really worrying scenes. our country is in trouble at the moment . anger, violence, moment. anger, violence, disorder in some of our major cities. has the prime minister got to brace himself for a

summer of political violence and chaos? we'll discuss that next with tomorrow's papers. don't go anywhere

welcome back. well, scenes of chaos and carnage in sunderland as a major police station is on fire. there's chaos. cars have been overturned. public disorder with sad echoes of what happened in southport on tuesday in the aftermath of the murder of three little girls at a dance class. so we're going to pretty much throw the running order out of the window and focus on that story for most likely the duration of the show , because it duration of the show, because it paints a picture of a country in disorder and a new prime minister in sir keir starmer, who may have to brace himself for a summer of political

violence. however, of course, fleet street haven't got this story just yet, but let's see what they do have . and we start what they do have. and we start with the daily mirror. and of course, in media terms, it's the only story in town i was in need. but huw edwards groomed me. the young man whose relationship with huw edwards set in motion the star's fall from grace, has spoken exclusively to the mirror about his ordeal. the man who was a teenager and highly vulnerable when edwards first asked him for explicit photos, has told the mirror he feels the bbc newsreader took advantage of him and most damningly says that the star, of course, wants the face of bbc news, groomed him . i was of bbc news, groomed him. i was in need, but hugh groomed me, the damning headline in that mirror exclusive the i weekend. now thousands of affordable homes stand empty despite housing crisis. daily telegraph, kemi badenoch. we need a better

plan for integration and nuclear sub software carried out by belarusians daily mail southport horror stabbing suspect was a star for the bbc show children in need. the times extra police and prison cells to stop more riots. and there's my old mate giles coren, looking very young and handsome. giles coren goes large in ibiza, but he did do yoga at dawn that wouldn't suit him. he's not a morning person. daily express now. glorious gold rush team gb in dreamland. after three more olympic victories , three more olympic victories, britain cannot let rioting thugs win , is the other headline win, is the other headline extremist thugs must not be allowed to win amid fears a summer of riots is about to explode across the nation, shadow home secretary james cleverly said ministers must back the police to do what is necessary to maintain law and order and stop further escalation. the guardian police

braced for unrest from shameful far right. okay, those are your front pages. let's get reaction now from my top pundits this evening, journalist and author harriet sargeant , tv news legend harriet sargeant, tv news legend john sergeant and entrepreneur and social commentator joanna joana jarjue. well, john sergeant, let's have a look at the politics of this. a major headache for our new prime minister, keir starmer. >> very much a headache. no, it's just something which he knows that in fact, you can't have some sort of magical solution across every town. he does know that there are real problems in some areas. there are different sort of problems there arguing about different things. often there often there is a tension sometimes between people coming from outside and the local people. the local people may have issues with the police and those can vary according to each area. so the idea that you simply sort of treat it as if that's it, the whole country is ablaze and we must stop it. it's not as simple

as that. it's very complicated. and the advantage that keir starmer has is that his long years, as you know, as the chief prosecutor, is prosecuting all sorts of people. he knows a lot about the police structure, he knows about the setup. he's even before been on those committees , before been on those committees, those emergency committees. he was there when he was in in the prosecutions, his prosecution job. so in a way, he is someone who doesn't need a great deal of briefing as to what you do in these situations. he also knows how difficult it is . how difficult it is. >> indeed, this is a law and order issue. it's the primary focus of the home secretary. but do you think this new government needs over time to look at what is behind rioting like this? >> yeah, no, they look at all of the different reasons and there'll be another there'll be more attempts at it always is to try and, you know, narrow it down. there's a survey that was done to an academic survey saying that all sorts of different arguments being used. but as far as the government at

the moment have got to concern themselves with it is a law and order issue where they've got to make sure as much as possible, that the actor stop the outside forces being so, so obviously very important in these areas. it's interesting how good the police intelligence was. they knew there was going to be trouble. they said there was going to be trouble. >> harriet. >> harriet. >> what what do you think about what the prime minister does next, what his next move is? i mean, obviously he's got to keep order on the streets, but do the government need to have a look at our society and understand why there seems to be bubbling anger out there? >> yes. i think so. and i think just to ignore that would be extremely bad for this country. i mean , he has to be fair and he i mean, he has to be fair and he has to be seen to be acting the same with every different member, different community, not just singling one community out and seen to be on their side just because he's worried about

their votes. >> i mean, do you see a difference in the way that the policing has sort of played out here in sunderland and let's say leeds two weeks ago when a family objected to children being placed into care ? yes. being placed into care? yes. >> the police there retreated. we didn't see the they just simply took off and left the rioters to carry on. >> now , joanna, what do you >> now, joanna, what do you think is behind the scenes that we've witnessed this week? tonight in sunderland and earlier in the week , hartlepool earlier in the week, hartlepool and southport , and southport, >> from what i've been seeing on social media, that's the only, you know, kind of vehicle that i can judge. it on. and a lot of the noise has been more so about, immigration and people kind of feeling as if people are coming in and causing harm to british children. and i think people have been basically expressing their grief, you know, in that community and even outside of that community, in different ways , but, you know, different ways, but, you know, it's been proven as time has gone on and we've been privy to

more information that the suspect in this situation is actually a second generation rwandan who is a christian. so earlier on in the week, we were seeing a lot of attacks on the muslim community in southport, seeing more attacks across the week in different communities and of the muslim faith of mosques and things like that. but, you know , you kind of it but, you know, you kind of it begs the question, who radicalised this christian then? because if it was actually proven that this individual was a muslim, then we'd be having all of these conversations. so we need to think about it in that context. but i also think that context. but i also think that when i saw that this was a 17 year old boy , i almost 17 year old boy, i almost started to draw parallel parallels to when we see school shootings as well in america and in that situation where race isn't as much of the hot topic and immigration, and when it usually is white american white boys that are teenagers that go into a school and kill other children, and we talk about mental health and we talk about, you know, this person was bullied at school. and it's just a shame that in this situation,

i'm not saying that this particular suspect deserves any type of sympathy. i'm just talking about in terms of just looking at this across the board of how we treat situations like this, whether it's here or across the pond, what the actual solution would be and how we should look at it in that way. because realistically, like i said, this person is a second generation rwandan. everything that they know is british and they were brought up as a christian. so is this really a conversation that we should be having about immigration, or is it the fact that the misinformation that we had at the beginning of the week has then spilled out, and then now it's a conversation about immigration because it really shouldn't be. if we're looking at the identity of the suspect. >> no, i mean, we don't know what happened. we do know that. well, we do know burley has come out of his house. the neighbours said they very rarely see him. and, from from my knowledge of, of dealing with, with teenage boys and writing and investigating them, they just spend a lot of time online and we don't know what. >> let me stop you there because of course, it's an ongoing case

and the police investigation is underway. >> but of course, you're entitled to your view. now, if you're just joining us, let me tell you that there are scenes of chaos in sunderland, a police station has been set on fire, cars overturned, trouble . very cars overturned, trouble. very similar to what happened in southport earlier in the week. perhaps not on the same scale, but still a cause for great concern. and here's a statement from the home secretary, yvette coopen from the home secretary, yvette cooper, who has said criminals attacking the police and stoking disorder on our streets will pay the price for their violence and thuggery. the police have the full backing of government to take the strongest possible action and ensure they face the full force of the law. they do not represent britain. harriet, how do we fix our broken society ? how do we fix our broken society? >> i have an answer. i'm not. i am not sure at all. i mean, i think the way that keir starmer is going about it is certainly not going to fix it. i think a

sort of , absolute wilful sort of, absolute wilful blindness on a part of so many politicians, so many of our metropolitan elite is certainly not going to fix it. metropolitan elite is certainly not going to fix it . but so much not going to fix it. but so much of what goes on in the uk is confined to this london centric view. if you travel to places like sunderland or any of these places where these riots are taking place, it's a very, very different country, which is not really understood from here. and until you begin to understand what is driving these people, what's in their minds , and also what's in their minds, and also to give them , to, to, to, to, to to give them, to, to, to, to, to not just dismiss them, but actually to take seriously their concerns. this country is going to remain broken. >> well, look, joana jarjue and john sergeant have a lot to say about this , how do we heal our about this, how do we heal our broken country, our divided

society ? katharine birbalsingh. society? katharine birbalsingh. of course, britain's strictest head teacher who runs a very multi—racial school in london, has said that multiculturalism is a good idea. it's got great potential, but that it's failing at the moment. why is that? and why are we seeing scenes of appalling violence and chaos and disorder in our great cities? the scenes are horrific. they are unacceptable. they are wrong. they are devastating for the locals. but why is it happening? more on

next. >> that's my whole life . >> that's my whole life. >> that's my whole life. >> welcome back. if you're joining us developing tonight, this is in sunderland. disorder and chaos a major police station in sunderland is on fire. it looks to have been targeted by thugs, by agitators. the prime minister has referred to right wing , hard right forces that

wing, hard right forces that have been going to different parts of the country looking for trouble, looking to hijack, pubuc trouble, looking to hijack, public upset and anger about, of course, what happened on monday. three little girls murdered in cold blood in southport. there was violence and disorder in southport on tuesday . it spread. southport on tuesday. it spread. we've seen it in hartlepool and we're seeing it tonight in sunderland, perhaps not on the same scale , but let me tell you same scale, but let me tell you that protesters have clashed with police as they gathered in sunderland for a planned demonstration linked to the southport knife attack. stones and beer cans were thrown at police who were wearing riot gear outside a mosque in the city. the cops have got good intelligence, as john sergeant said. they saw this coming. mounted officers pushed back demonstrators, some of whom were in masks , and northumbria police in masks, and northumbria police said its officers have been subjected to serious violence and advised members of the to pubuc and advised members of the to public avoid the area. police also had beer barrels thrown at

them as young men chanted whose streets ? our streets? cars in streets? our streets? cars in the city centre have been targeted by the group, with one overturned car being set on fire. the unrest, as i've said, follows riots in hartlepool, in which cleveland police said was unked which cleveland police said was linked to protests in terms of what happened in southport. listen, let's get more reaction from my pundits this evening . from my pundits this evening. journalist and author harriet sergeant, tv news legend john sergeant, tv news legend john sergeant and entrepreneur and social commentator joanna joana jarjue. joanna, do you want to pick up on what harriet was saying just a few minutes ago about the root causes of all this anger? >> i think the root cause is social media. that's where it spreads, you know, like wildfire. and i think that if i was keir starmer in the neck , was keir starmer in the neck, well, this new government, i would be really focusing on misinformation. there is nothing wrong with people being angry about certain things, even if they're angry about things that i don't necessarily agree with, but it just has to at least be

fact, right? >> most definitely. >> most definitely. >> so. and i think that's one of the biggest problems that we've seen this week. the amount of misinformation. and then now people are just like, well, this is actually the opportunity for me to just go and kind of express all of my frustrations about all different facets of things. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> what about harriet's point, though , about northern towns, though, about northern towns, which are not perhaps as well integrated as, as as here in the caphal integrated as, as as here in the capital, for example, where you've got communities living parallel lives, not engaging with british values, maybe not speaking the language and sometimes not following the rule of law. >> well, i don't think that, the people let's let's call i don't know, let's say immigrants, for example, or anybody who isn't white, right. in these northern towns, i don't think that they behave any differently to how they behave in london, for example. i think what's different is maybe how they're received. i think that in london people are a lot more , i guess, people are a lot more, i guess, or down south i'm going to use london as the best example, obviously. and people are used

to living in more of a multicultural society. and i think what can happen in the other side of things is people feel as if they can't integrate because they feel as if they're not welcome to begin with. and i can speak on something like this because i'm somebody who is quote unquote an immigrant, even though i'm black, british and i come from a northern town where i was the only black person in my primary school, for example. so i get this, and i have also experienced severe racism, severe racism, to the point where my next door neighbour at one point has actually posted dog poo on newspaper in my letterbox, and we had to get, you know , an actual bar across you know, an actual bar across our letterbox, because we were concerned that one day it was going to be something that actually would be set on fire. so i just want to finish this point by saying that there wasn't a big, you know, african community in the town that i grew up in. but if you were in my position living with a single mum and things like that were happening to you and you thought

somebody was going to petrol bomb your house next time, and it wasn't just going to be something as, quote unquote innocent as dog poo. you probably wouldn't want to necessarily integrate. so i'm just saying it works both ways with other people who don't make the effort to integrate, which i think they should. and then also, there's other people who also, there's other people who also don't feel welcome. >> fair enough. >> fair enough. >> john, i think the key thing to bear in mind, i suppose, is that the majority across the whole country don't want violence. i mean, the idea that somehow it'll spread because it's sort of exciting . yes, it's it's sort of exciting. yes, it's true for a minority, but most people, if there's a threat of violence, get frightened. they get very disturbed. they don't like what they see and they close their front doors. the idea that the moment there's a riot, a normal person then rushes out to join in because they feel strongly about this, that and the other. they don't. and it's interesting, even with a campaign as violent as the ira campaign, when did sinn fein begin to pick up their real vote? when they renounced violence? now that is the point is, people do learn from these things. the mistake, i think, is to imagine that it's static, that things are always going to

be a certain way in a certain, that things aren't going to change. people are affected by seeing on social media that they're often wrong and they're misinformed. these things take time for people to realise don't trust social media because they can often be simply wrong. although it takes time. >> absolutely. joana jarjue do you disagree with katharine birbalsingh that multiculturalism can work but is currently failing , currently failing, >> well, clearly the scenes that we're, we're seeing at the moment all across the country are showing that something is very wrong. i think that multiculturalism , it's almost multiculturalism, it's almost like two ends of the spectrum. it's either going very well in certain areas and then there's concerns and a lot of work to be donein concerns and a lot of work to be done in other areas. and i think it's about looking at what type of information and how people feel in those particular areas. is it that those areas have been left behind? so then you know, there's information that's then being told to say, okay, actually look at your neighbour. it's because of him that's actually stealing something from you. i don't see anybody. there are people in london and people look at london. and for me, as a

northerner, i did for a very long time, as if it was like the streets are paved with gold and everybody's just so rich down here. no, there are people down here. no, there are people down here who were struggling just as much as they are in bradford. and wherever else, but they're also living next door to immigrants. and why is it that the person who's struggling in a in a council estate in london isn't necessarily blaming their neighbour and the people may be in other areas, more remote areas are. >> harriet, you've done a lot of work with deprived communities, and you've spent time with gangs and you've spent time with gangs and tried to get under under the skin of you know, the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder. ladden >> so what's your experience? well i think that that, everybody and i think in a way i don't think this is about racism. >> i think it's about numbers and the sheer numbers of people coming into the country with, at the same time, the lack of infrastructure that is being put infrastructure that is being put in place for these. so you think if we didn't have the illegal boat crossings and if we had low levels of legal net migration, maybe 50,000 a year, you had infrastructure. >> but if those two things were

the case, you don't think we would have this trouble tonight? >> i don't think nearly. i'd completely disagree. >> you disagree. you completely disagree. >> sorry. we don't have hospitals. we don't. i mean, if so, bristol has a has a has a population of half a million and it has six hospitals. now we had 1.3 million came in just last year legally. so we should be building three two and a half hospitals. >> are you not. are you not making an excuse. >> are you not handing an excuse to far right thugs who have organised this violence tonight? yeah. are you not giving them cover for their vile, what is vile disruption and crime? >> the opposite. i would like to think i was doing the opposite, because i think that what is happening is that those far right thugs would be a tiny, tiny minority who no one would listen to, but the trouble is that decent, ordinary people who feel that their views are not being taken any notice of are

being taken any notice of are being dismissed, find that the only. >> but they're not the people burning, they're not burning, they're not going out and riot. they're not. yeah. john, i think i think what harriet sort of saying, the idea they're getting so cross about all these things they run. harriet finished. harriet finished the point i think because so many people feel that nobody is actually articulating their views in a way that is not inflammatory. >> okay . >> okay. >> okay. >> so john, how about this. we can all i think , condemn 100% can all i think, condemn 100% the far right, disgusting, vile people, troublemakers , violent. people, troublemakers, violent. they're hurting our police officers. they're destroying these towns. but for public anger around issues of legal net migration, the boats, all the rest of it, by calling all of those people far right and bigots and racists, are the establishment gaslighting decent, ordinary people whose lives are being impacted by society that's not working for them anymore? >> no, i think i don't know. do you acknowledge that ? no. can i

you acknowledge that? no. can i can i just. >> you're the bbc for a long time, so it might be a hard pill to swallow. >> all right. can i just just a few seconds to answer. of course. we just had an election where there's been an enormous, an enormous movement which has produced the biggest majority that you've ever imagined for an opposition coming into power. why? because people are perfectly well aware that all the things that are going wrong, and they voted that way. so you can't sort of what you can't do is then have the whole thing all over again, as if there's no change of government. nothing's been expressed in many ways. our democracy has just recently passed the 4 million votes for nigel farage. >> all right. >> all right. >> and millions and millions of people for other people. >> can i just make a distinction? 3 million fewer voters for the conservatives? can i just can i just make a distinction? okay, folks, listen , distinction? okay, folks, listen, let me tell you, it's been a very important evening, a very busy evening. >> thank you. to my amazing pundits, tensions. >> thank you. to my amazing pundits, tensions . tensions are pundits, tensions. tensions are running high. we're all worried about what's happening in the country, and we will return to

this conversation, do stay tuned. headline is next. i'm back tomorrow at 10 am. with tatiana and back at nine as well. it's a busy 24 hours. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> good evening. here's your gb news. weather from the met office. it is going to be relatively warm, not as hot as it has been, but warm and sunny at times . through much of this at times. through much of this weekend though there will be some rain pushing through initially. we have a front making its way southeastwards through this evening and overnight that's already brought quite a bit of rain across scotland and northern ireland, but it's now clearing these areas and so here it is going to turn mostly dry overnight with some clear skies for england and wales, though, turning increasingly cloudy and there will be some outbreaks of rain around where we have the cloud, temperatures aren't going to drop much. another warm night to

come, but quite a bit fresher across scotland and northern ireland, dropping into single figures, particularly in more rural spots. but first thing tomorrow, across in many parts of england and wales it is going to be a bit grey. initially there will be some outbreaks of rain around and worth bearing in mind. some of the rain could be a little bit heavy at times, a bit brighter first thing across nonh bit brighter first thing across north wales and much of northern england, though some cloud here and there. a brighter start for scotland and northern ireland. just a couple of showers starting to feed their way in from the west as we go through the morning. eastern scotland getting off to a lovely fine start to the day with plenty of sunshine here. those showers though, across western parts of scotland and northern ireland, will become more widespread here as we go through the afternoon, and some heavy ones are quite likely. meanwhile across southern southeastern parts of england, here we will have some bursts of rain through the day and these could be heavy at times before they clear away later. elsewhere, a good deal of dry, bright and sunny weather and with temperatures albeit

gb news. >> gb news will start this hour 11:00. with that breaking news, we've been talking about the last few hours that there are reports tonight. a police station in sunderland has been set on fire during what northumberland police have described as another night of serious violence linked to the southport stabbings. these are the latest pictures from that scene of the blaze, with

confirmation now that at least two