but the tory plans for so—called mega prisons , where labour is mega prisons, where labour is being urged to scrap those plans and instead spend that money on things like prevention and rehabilitation, instead , should rehabilitation, instead, should they? and speaking of law and order, jess phillips has apologised for the comments that she made when many people said she made when many people said she basically was excusing people taking to the streets to batter white people. your thoughts? and the transport secretary said, i quote, she's going to move fast and fix things in relation to this train strikes. while she's achieved

that by giving a 15%. i also quote no strings attached pay rise. i've got to be honest with you, i actually think my three year old child could negotiate better than this. your thoughts? and last but not least is cancel culture . real? all of that and culture. real? all of that and more. but first, the 6:00 news headunes. headlines. >> michelle, thank you and good evening. the top stories. a 15 year old boy from sunderland has become the first person in england to be charged with the more serious offence of riot over recent unrest in the uk. that's according to the crown prosecution service, in which that incident occurred. on the 2nd of august. the boy appeared in court today and the case was adjourned for two weeks following what a district judge called a surprise charging decision . in other news, the

decision. in other news, the proportion of a—level entries awarded top grades is up on last year and remains above pre—pandemic levels. hundreds of thousands of students in england, wales and northern ireland received their exam results today. more than three quarters of english 18 year old applicants have been accepted into their first choice of university, according to the government . but education government. but education secretary bridget phillipson says there are still inequalities in the education system. >> today is about celebrating the achievements of our young people, but i do recognise that the gaps that we've seen opening up under the last conservative government when it comes to regional differences are really stark, and that gap is widening. there is an awful lot that we need to do and i want to make sure, as education secretary that we break down those barriers to opportunity for our young people, that where you're from doesn't determine what you can go on to achieve in life. >> the economy is continuing its recovery from last year's recession, with growth extending over the latest quarter, according to official data. the ons said gross domestic product increased by nought point 6% between april and june. labour's

darren jones, chief secretary to the treasury, says the government inherited a huge financial challenge from the tories. however, shadow chief secretary to the treasury laura trott says the economic growth is thanks to the previous tory policies. british challenger two tanks are thought to have been used in ukraine's surprise incursion into russia. it comes after the government confirmed kyiv was free to use uk weapons inside russian territory, with the exception of britain's powerful storm shadow missiles. the latest turn in the conflict has sparked concerns about a wider escalation of tensions between russia and the west. staying with international news and hezbollah has launched more than 25 rockets and is suspected drone at northern israel, according to israel's military. the strikes are a significant escalation, but not the attack that israel has been anticipating since the assassination of senior figures from hamas and hezbollah two weeks ago. the southern lebanon based terror group has been

steadily stepping up attacks against israel in recent days. just after 2 pm. local time today, a suspected drone entered israeli airspace from lebanon and was shot down over the golan heights, according to the idf . heights, according to the idf. foreign secretary david lammy has said that resumed talks aimed at halting the israel—hamas war could define the future of the middle east. his comments come, as it was earlier reported that israel's military offensive in the gaza strip has killed at least 40,000 palestinians and wounded more than 92,000 since the october 7th attacks, according to the hamas run health ministry. a new round of ceasefire talks is taking place in the qatari caphal taking place in the qatari capital, doha, in an effort to end ten months of fighting in the palestinian enclave and bnng the palestinian enclave and bring 115 israeli and foreign hostages home. us news now an arrest has been made in connection with the overdose death of actor matthew perry, according to us media. the

friends actor was found dead in a swimming pool at his home in california in october last year. the los angeles county medical examiner's office attributed his death to the acute effects of ketamine, a sedative that can be used as a recreational drug, as well as to treat depression. an individual was reportedly arrested in southern california today. arrested in southern california today . the duke and duchess of today. the duke and duchess of sussex have been welcomed to colombia as they begin their four day tour of the south american nation. harry and meghan were met in the capital, bogota, by colombia's vice president francia marquez and her husband. they spent around half an hour at the vice president's residence, where they exchanged welcome gifts, and they were also offered tea, coffee and traditional colombian cheese bread. it's understood they'll focus on the impact of they'll focus on the impact of the digital world on young people. the military community and female empowerment. the duke and female empowerment. the duke and duchess will also explore colombia's history and culture and global superstar taylor

swift is closing the european leg of her eras tour with five nights at london's wembley stadium. these are live pictures where thousands of fans have been gathering all day. it is the first time that taylor swift returned to the uk since paying tribute, of course, to the victims of the southport attack last month, where three little girls died in a mass stabbing at a dance class featuring her music. earlier this month, taylor swift was forced to cancel three shows in vienna after a suspected islamist terror plot . those are the terror plot. those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm tatiana sanchez. it is over to michelle for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thanks for that, tatiana and

michelle dewberry. and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me. my panel, the former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie and james schneider , the former james schneider, the former adviser to jeremy corbyn. good evening gents. you're both very welcome. especially you, kelvin, because viewers at home, what you won't realise is that every time i see kelvin, he makes me laugh. you know, there's a lot of depressing stuff going on in the world. you just have to take one look at kelvin's feet and it is just enough to cheer a lady up. you go through some strange kind of midlife crisis. >> yeah. i'm like, i'm going very, very odd. i'm going back in time. >> i am took some pictures of some of the footwear that he actually comes to work in. i can't even believe what he wears in one of these days. i will shame him by showing you them. but not tonight. you'll be pleased to know. you know the drill. it's all about you guys at home as well tonight. get in touch all the usual ways you can email me gbviews@gbnews.com, or you can go to the website gbnews.com slash yoursay and talk to me there. or of course you can tweet or text me, but

you're very welcome tonight, look, before we get stuck into law and order, labour's relationship with the unions , relationship with the unions, cancel culture and all that good stuff, something did catch my eye today. it stopped me in my tracks. take a look at this sculpture. this is something that mark zuckerberg, you know, the facebook chief, he, had that this sculpture made. this is not a sculpture. this is mark zuckerberg. there is the sculpture. look at this. a steel sculpture. look at this. a steel sculpture of his wife . he wants sculpture of his wife. he wants to bring back a roman tradition. and i saw that, and i thought, oh, i wonder if someone wants to make a roman sculpture of me for their front garden. is this the kind of thing you'd do for your loved one, kelvin? >> well, i couldn't just do it for one, could i? so i just feel that my garden might be full of with various divorces and relationships, might be full of, of sculptures. the one thing i can be sure of is that none of the, none of the holders of the important office of mrs. mackenzie would actually have a

sculpture of me in their garden. >> oh, is it a dartboard or something with your face in the middle of it? i imagine james is that your kind of thing? >> well, i think i probably i think we probably need to save up some money so that we can have a garden first before we can have any sculptures. so i think for now, i think for now, she might have to do with flowers or something a bit, a bit lower cost. see, that's when you know you're doing well in the world, isn't it? >> when you've got so much loose change that you can commission things like that for your own back garden? i like it anyway. look, let's talk serious matters. there's lots i want to discuss with you about law and order tonight. not least. something caught my eye. dangerous career criminals, apparently with more than 100 convictions, are apparently being spared jail time. this caught my eye. and let me just give you some stats about this, because apparently the number of people with multiple convictions that avoided prison has apparently tripled from 1200 odd in two thousand and seven to 3000 325 in 2023. we're at a

time where, you know loose lips on twitter can see you get sentenced. you know, i don't agree necessarily with that approach. but i find it absolutely astonishing that you can have multiple multiple, multiple, multiple convictions and not be sent to prison. what do you think to that? >> well, there was a case which caught my eye yesterday, which was the lady. i think she's like 53. and i think she cares for her. she's a carer for a rather sick husband, and she writes something really quite wrong on facebook. and that's her actually. and she ends up getting, i think, 18 months. i found that bizarre because had this been three months ago, or is it three months ago, she probably got a suspended sentence for that . sentence for that. >> want that the woman that was saying something like, you can you can burn, you should burn down a mosque or something with the adults in it. yeah. i mean, look, it's not really be saying that. >> no, you should not be saying

that. and one of the things that might come out of all this cracking down is that people will not be saying that in future, on the basis that they may well be going to jail. all i am saying is that 3 or 4 months ago, she would have got a suspended sentence, which may not be right, but the thing is, she got 18 months. what about this? there's a guy in london who stole on his e—bike, stole 24 mobile phones from various people in one single day. a massive criminal, a really nasty piece of work. he drove at 50 miles an hour down, down pavements get. people had to scatter to get out of the way, he was chased by the cops and all the rest of it. he ended up getting 20 months, right. why all i'm saying is the prime minister has ordered the judges correctly. probably to crack down on on these rioters correctly. okay. why don't we have the same sentencing policy throughout the whole year so that when this guy who steals 20 phonesin that when this guy who steals 20 phones in a day. right. why doesn't he get five years, right? why doesn't he get five

years? i mean, i agreed with the with do you remember, do you remember that lady who was murdered in a pub by a machine gunnerjust before christmas on gunner just before christmas on christmas eve? in fact, that killer got 48 years. he's 22 years old. he won't be out. that's the earliest he will be out with when he's 70. okay, fantastic. why don't we have judges permanently on the case of these criminals? >> i would argue. have you been killing someone with a gun? you shouldn't be out at all, quite frankly. but anyway, whatever. >> james, i do think we are seeing people, getting prison terms for words and then people not getting much for actions. and that's got to be that's got to be a problem . there's one one to be a problem. there's one one of these cases that's in that's come up from the recent riots around that, but from the online harms act that's now in place. and one of them i saw i think it's on trial tomorrow , there it's on trial tomorrow, there was a rapper who on tiktok said something which is libellous about tommy robinson , but

about tommy robinson, but they're being taken for a criminal charge, which could end up in a in a prison term, which seems to me quite weird. i think if you libel someone, then they're entitled the person you've libelled is entitled to take you to court, and that's not a matter for our criminal justice system and our prisons, which really should be about serious offenders and people that are a danger to other people. and the rehabilitation of those where that's possible. so i think in some of these and of course, you can cherry pick, ineed of course, you can cherry pick, i need to be clear about the particulars of the specifics of the case you're referring to. >> if i've got my facts straight, i think that you're referring to a fellow that goes by the name of twister cheese, something like that. yeah. i mean, how pathetic. what kind of grown man calls himself twister cheese anyway , that aside, what cheese anyway, that aside, what he actually said was that he made, some social media posts suggesting that tommy robinson had told people to attack mosques and that was not true.

so that's why i'm saying that he's found himself in trouble under it's not just about, oh, it's libel. it's about you've deliberately misrepresented something and therefore you've perhaps incited other people to go out and retaliate. and i need to be careful because this is a live case. >> my point there is that we have libel law. and before we had the online harms bill act, now that we had libel, we still have libel. if he has libelled tommy robinson, then tommy robinson is entitled to take him to court for damages on that basis. i'm saying that if you say that . so if i say kelvin say that. so if i say kelvin mackenzie said, you know , some mackenzie said, you know, some offensive bad thing that he didn't say, i don't think i should be taken to criminal court. i think kelvin is entitled to know. but we're in this whole different world now, and i do need to be careful about the specifics of the case that you're talking about, because as you say, this person, let's speak in more specific, in more general terms. >> let me broaden this out. we have found ourselves in what i would almost call some kind of

clown world, where we've rushed now to criminalise people for things that previously you shouldn't be doing. i don't think you should be doing , but think you should be doing, but whether or not they would be criminal acts that should result in prison time, i would personally dispute . and if personally dispute. and if you're going to do that on one side of the fence. so if you're going to start saying, and again, i need to be a bit careful about what i say because there's live criminal cases. but on one side of the fence, if you're going to start saying, you're going to start saying, you know, you're going to be legally in trouble. if you suggested that the, the killer of the southport girls was an asylum seeker, and that's false, and then you whipped up hatred. if you're going to be in trouble on that side of the fence, criminally, for that, it then also then stands to reason if thatis also then stands to reason if that is your kind of threshold and your your mindset, then it also then stands to reason that on the other side of the fence, you would then be in trouble for suggesting that an individual, be that tommy robinson or whoever has basically told people to smash up mosques and batter muslims or whatever,

which wasn't true. >> so the problem, i think, is that we're playing a kind of reactive, legal whack a mole, and that's what's going on. and that's not actually a sensible way to make laws. and what we're seeing is, yes, people say bad things on social media occasionally, or some of that will end up being, illegal in the sense that it's hate speech or it contributes to, you know, it's a specific instruction to go and do an act which is criminal, which would be the same as if i were to say that in this studio. now, that would that would be illegal. but i think in on the social media thing, rather than focusing on how are certain pieces of news spread, how can we see what the algorithms are and how can that be public? and how can we have a system where if something isn't true, it isn't being spread, and we put the onus on the platforms that we're using and how we engage with those, rather than trying to endlessly do this weird balancing act of someone said a bad thing over here, that

person's going to be dealt with now. someone said, a bad thing over here. we have to deal with this and endlessly this endless escalation of policing speech rather than focusing on like really, really bad crimes, really, really bad crimes, really bad physical actions took place in the riots. and there would have been some speech acts which also are directly involved in those. those are the things which should be the focus for law enforcement and the and the justice system. and then if we are concerned about the spread of lies, misinformation, untruths , etc, we should look at untruths, etc, we should look at how those things are spread , how those things are spread, which means understanding which we don't know , social media we don't know, social media algorithms. those should be a pubuc algorithms. those should be a public thing so that researchers so that the government so that all of us can say this spread because of this reason, so that we can know if someone is in a, in a, in a febrile situation , in a, in a febrile situation, someone does say something about something. we can say at this point , something. we can say at this point, something should click in so that that information doesn't

spread or things about that subject doesn't spread for x hours or whatever it might be. >> i know, but you know where you're going to head with that because, elon musk gets a lot of hassle at the moment because people are saying, you know, he's created this wild west or whatever in twitter or x. but before elon musk actually took over that platform , there was so over that platform, there was so much throttling of information based on it being what i would call the wrong kinds of opinions. so many people were shadow banned and things like that to stop their perspectives from getting traction because whoever was running that platform at the time, i would argue , didn't really like those argue, didn't really like those kind of opinions. so you've got to be careful what you wish for. >> well, but actually there was another reason as well. they were trying to protect. and as most of the mainstream media is today, they're trying to protect their advertising base because because if you appeal to the left, then then the big advertisers will come in, right? whether it be disney or unilever or any of those, they'll all come in immediately. the right start getting a view right. then

suddenly that advertising gets pulled. it's an incredible and difficult moment . so my bet is difficult moment. so my bet is in the future if i'm still around in ten years time, my bet is that x or twitter will be behind a paywall. actually go, >> yeah, i think transparency is the thing that we want. i don't think some kind of secretive agreement between governments and social media companies is in any way good, because views that are opposed to the government are opposed to the government are more likely to be shut down than other ones . but us being than other ones. but us being able to see publicly , why did x able to see publicly, why did x get shut? sorry, not x as in twitter. why did some posts get shown to loads of people? you can see the algorithm, we can research it and understand it because this is our public forum. now you know, 20 years, 20 years ago, researchers under researchers. >> these are private companies. >> these are private companies. >> sure. and so why should this is elon musk's you know, i don't want to because it's the kentucky fried chicken and your special secret recipe or whatever. >> but why would he disclose his trade secrets? >> because it's the everybody.

this is the public forum in exactly the same way that, gb news or newspapers have some responsibilities to the wider public, and therefore they there should be a degree of transparency. now, the transparency. now, the transparency in newspapers was , transparency in newspapers was, well, the thing was published so you could go and have a look and you could go and have a look and you could go and have a look and you could do research and analysis of it. likewise tv, you could research how long things were watched for, what was watched, what what's broadcast and how. we can't do that with social media because it's a hidden thing with with the algorithm. and that is what information we are showed. that is the public sphere of today. so we have to be able to see why we are being shown the information that we're shown. that's not a bad thing. it doesn't impinge on though. we're saying that should happen for all of the social media sites. and, you know, and that should be clear and open. just briefly. >> kelvin, >> kelvin, >> well, the answer then is to go behind the paywall so that you don't have to face the idea that this is not open for. all right. that's what i would do.

i'd do it tomorrow . and it also i'd do it tomorrow. and it also it would stop musk railing on all the time about the fact that there's no advertising. get people to pay. and in essence, i pay people to pay. and in essence, i pay anyway to get a blue tick. i pay pay anyway to get a blue tick. i pay £8 a month. as it stands, i want everybody keep the left off because they can't afford it. >> kelvin, look after the break. speaking of social media, jess phillips , she is at aurora bank phillips, she is at aurora bank on some of the comments that she made, on social media. when i would argue she was pretty much defending people, mobs taking to the streets, tooled up, looking for people to attack also as well. one of the prison bosses, former prison chiefs, he's come out and basically said, stop. these plans to expand prisons and build mega prisons and so on. instead, spend that money on things like rehabilitation and prevention is that a plan that you would get behind? i'll see you would get behind? i'll see you in two.

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry keeping you company till seven alongside me. what a treat for us all the former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie and james schneider, the former adviser to jeremy corbyn. look, we were just talking about social media before the break. many of you will have seen a post from the home office minister , jess home office minister, jess phillips. she did this tweet, which many people have actually said, that she excused rioters. this was all about when people were taking to the streets. and i've got to say, misinformation was flying about all over the place , wasn't it? and she was place, wasn't it? and she was basically saying that people have taken to the streets essentially in self defence. i'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of what she said. anyway, she's now said that she's made a mistake there, and that when you make mistakes, it's important that you try and correct those things in the, you know, the present tense and so on and so forth. was she right basically to row back on what she said?

>> well, she was right. it's taken her it's taken a few days, for it to, for it to come out. i mean, i can't remember how many daysit mean, i can't remember how many days it would have taken. where are we now? it's probably taken the thick end of nearly a week, i think, for it to be because she. she needn't have joined in. but i presume the reason that she joined in is the politics of the votes in that area which damaged her in the election , damaged her in the election, uniquely in which the muslim voters in the area, she was very, very lucky. she i think she got in by a few hundred, didn't she? i think it was about a thousand. and she also complained she also complained about the manner in which she was treated right by. she said the abuse was phenomenal, but actually she managed to say the abuse was phenomenal, making it clear that this was abuse she got generally, whereas in fact it was abuse that she got, particularly from one from one particularly from one from one part of the voting community. so she she had to make that tweet. i should imagine it was pressure

from within the upper echelons of the of the labour party. and i'm pleased she's done it. >> well anyway, as she said, she's going to choose her words more carefully in the future. >> james, i think we should all choose our words more carefully in. i think we should just say no silence. >> there'll be no show here in prison at this rate. go on, carry on. what was you saying? >> no, i, i mps apologise for saying things wrong all the time. and she thinks that she said she, she said that wrong and should choose her words better. i think in general terms as well as we're clearly all agree, lots of people should have said things or not said things, over the last couple of weeks, especially when there's like live ongoing and things are unclear when it's easy to, to make mistakes and not have all of the facts at hand. well, if anything has come of all of this whole sorry mess, it's that so many people are absolutely terrified now when they do go on

places like twitter and x, worried about what it is that they're going to write, one of my viewers, michelle, says, michelle, why when it's a labour mp, can they just get away with apologising and everybody moves on? >> can you imagine if this was a reform member or someone like that? there'd be calls for them to be sacked and so on and so forth. keep your thoughts on that one coming in. but talking about this whole sentencing and prisons and all the rest of it. now, a former prison chief, he is suggesting now, do you remember the tories wanting to expand prison places and build so—called mega prisons? he's suggesting, actually, that those plans should be ripped up and that money should instead be reinvested on things like prevention and rehabilitation ? kelvin? >> well, he's a skilled guy, okay?i >> well, he's a skilled guy, okay? i think he was the head of the parole board as well as the head of the nick hardwick prison service, former chief inspector of prisons. so he's no fool. and however, the problem for our country is that we have a lot of criminals. i see that the met today, or has got a lot of a

bucket poured on them. after an investigation. now we only have 33,000 police officers in london. okay, that is not enough. we have a we have a number of london of about 10 to 11 million people now. right scotland, for instance, is half the size and it's got 22,000. we need to spend more money on the police. we need to put more bad people away to protect us. now, does this guy who runs the parole board or run the prison service, does he got some magic bullet, which is going to mean that those people who are criminals who, when they come out again, fancy going in back into crime, can be persuaded that they won't do crime. there are certain number of people i know who have gone to jail, come out and have never committed a crime afterwards. jolly good. i find it hard to believe that we have have some kind of magic drug out there, which this guy seems to know , which we can talk seems to know, which we can talk to people in a way which encourages them not to commit crimes in the future. there are

a lot of criminals out there, and there are a lot of criminals in london, and i feel very, very sorry for anybody who is a police officer in the met who has to deal with some of the scum they come across every day. james i agree that we should listen to this guy nick hardwick, because he is an expert and he knows what he's talking about. >> it doesn't mean he's necessarily right, but he definitely has an idea about what he's talking about. and the bafic what he's talking about. and the basic point is prison numbers have gone up, but that hasn't reduced crime. and the metaphor that he's used is that it's bailing water out of the bathtub with the taps still on, and that instead we should be looking at how do you at least reduce the flow of the of the tap, which seems pretty sensible to me. there are lots of there are lots of things that lots of other countries have done on prevention, which does reduce criminality. there are things that can be done with community policing, with with youth centres, with education and so on.and centres, with education and so on. and it seems to me quite

sensible that we would have more investment. and it is investment investment. and it is investment in that because it's reducing the future costs of, you know, i mean, if we're looking at this thing straight in front of us, there's £4 billion that they're going to spend on more prison places. if we didn't have to spend that money, that would be a very good thing. if we could spend it on other things that we would like. so investment in reducing crime. none of us are particular experts in prevention, but you can read the material. there is stuff that can be done, and i think investing in those things seems pretty sensible to me. >> i tried very hard to find a comment from james timpson, who's the new prisons minister. i really like this guy. people you've probably heard me talk about him on my show before. i really like him. i've got a lot of respect for him. he was recently given this role, obviously by keir starmer. he's previously said in the past that he thinks, for example, only about a third of prisoners should perhaps actually even be in prison, and you know, he's got a really interesting family

background and so on and so forth. and i wonder what he thinks to that. the wave of sentencing, what we're currently seeing, we've just been hearing there about a 15 year old being charged, 13 year old being charged, 13 year old being charged, children being charged potentially will be heading to off detention. and i'm fascinated to hear his views on all this. right well, the reason where he's been, well, you know why he doesn't say anything? >> because he doesn't agree with it. i mean, he'sjust started it. i mean, he's just started the job, right? and we would like to hear from the prisons minister. after all, we're up. we're up to there. we're up to there in prisoners. and we are now adding a whole load. yeah. scum. yeah. a whole load of really nasty people are going in there. absolutely filling the place up. and allowing other people to come out. the other way earlier. for instance, instead of serving 50% of your sentence, you're now only you're only going to serve 40% of your sentence. so there is a madness about what's going on. i'm not against it. 100% in favour. the reason you don't hear from him is he doesn't agree with what's going on. and what will be interesting is if your conversation about saying, well, what have you got to say? if you

tweeted, what have you got to say? mr timpson on twitter now? and that became a thing . you get and that became a thing. you get a guarantee within a couple of days he will say something. >> yeah. and just to be clear, i haven't spoken to james timpson. i can't find any comment from him and i've looked high and low for this. so i don't know if what kelvin's saying is accurate or not. he's not here to put his side of the story across, but i would be very fascinated to hear what he says. and james, i find this whole notion that this prison crisis, that it just seems to have crept up on people and caught people by surprise in government. this overcrowding and lack of capacity. and i don't understand it, because surely we should have been building extra prisons ages ago, >> it shouldn't have done. and there are, you know, there are different approaches. i remember when the tories first came in in 2010 and they had a they had a completely different approach at the time, which was they were going to try to reduce prison numbers by reducing some of the smaller sentences, like the train of asbos into prison that

had come up under new labour and then we ended up completely u—turning a year later and going back to the policy of putting people in prisons or putting more people in prisons, expanding the prison population. but not building, not building things. but then we haven't built anything for 14 years, and all of this stuff. the problem is, if you if you stop investing in things, i don't just mean prisons in youth centres, in roads, in railways, in our energy infrastructure. if you stop investing in things, you save money in year one and there are big costs down the road, which is what we've seen with schools, with the, you know, some schools falling down and so on. >> right. well, so where where is the money going to come from this, this great, this great nirvana that you're talking about? i mean, the, the investment over the last moment investment over the last moment in our country would go off the dial, and there is only one collection of people who are going to pay it. it's going to be the middle classes in the last in the last 14 years, we've had near—zero interest rates. >> it would have been incredibly

easy for the government to borrow for investment if it would yield the true man. >> we had austerity that we were so short of money that the tories had to bring in austerity for in order for us to balance the books they didn't have to bnngin the books they didn't have to bring in austerity to balance the books. that's what the left say. >> no, it's also now what even the imf says. it's now what all economists say now they say, oh, sorry, it was a mistake in a spreadsheet. >> i've never seen that. you can show you can you can tweet that to me. >> i'll tweet that to you. >> i'll tweet that to you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> that's your bedtime reading for tonight. and when you talk about borrowing costs and all the rest of it, i know that many of you guys at home will be shouting about pfi contracts and the way that people did borrow money, of course, from the private sector, and it is absolutely rinsed. us taxpayers, let's face it, when it comes to repaying those loans, charlie says , michelle, when you all says, michelle, when you all keep talking about more police officers, please can we be clear? because at the moment police seem to do so much paperwork, so we don't need police officers to do paperwork. we need police officers to be on the front line. one of my

viewers as well, alan says, can you tell your panellists he means you to think before you engage your brain ? he says that engage your brain? he says that you've suggested tell him. >> tell him to. you don't know what. >> you don't know what you've done yet. >> so i'm telling you, watch another show suggesting, he says that social media should be behind a paywall. >> so he says, what you're saying basically, is that only the well—to—do in society should be able to communicate. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> there you go. i told him. make of his response what you will after the break. i want to talk to you then about public money. labour. now how are they deaung money. labour. now how are they dealing with the unions? do you think they're just too soft with them, the right approach or what are your thoughts

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven alongside me, kelvin mackenzie and james

schneider remain one of my viewers. neil, you're not messing around. you fixed all the problems when it comes to law and order. you say two pronged approach. number one, bnng pronged approach. number one, bring back the death penalty. and number two, deport foreign prisoners . then you'd find prisoners. then you'd find yourself with lots of space. oh i can tell you now, there'll be many people, neil, that disagree with that. but equally i suggest that perhaps many people that also agree with you. look, let's talk, shall we? then the situation with labour and the unions. let me play you before we get into this. a clip from our transport minister. take a listen to this . listen to this. >> i became transport secretary. i said we'd move fast and fix things. and that's exactly what we're doing. i'm delighted that we're doing. i'm delighted that we have put forward a three year pay we have put forward a three year pay deal so that drivers across our railways can vote on it and hopefully bring an end to over two years of damaging strikes that have cost the taxpayer more than £800 million in lost revenue and hurt the economy even more. the previous government deliberately provoked and prolonged these strikes and

hurt passengers and the economy in direct contrast, this labour government will always put passengers first. >> i have a very strong response to this, i can tell you, but i'll go straight over to you. kelvin mackenzie, aslef, the union here. they are delighted with this . they describe it as with this. they describe it as they should be. no strings . offer. >> no. it's a disgrace . first of >> no. it's a disgrace. first of all, that lady louise hague, you should know her background . should know her background. unite shop steward. both her grandfather and her uncle were trade union officials. so when she sits around the table, she might as well sit on the same side as wheelan. i mean, they were going to sail through this no matter what happened. so there is that aspect to it. so what i want to know is, is the government acting for the taxpayer or is it is it acting for the consumer, the passenger? is it acting for anybody except the trade union? i love that dispute that was going on

because what it proved over 18 months, over 18 days, over two years is they had no strength. this is not like when i was, you know, i was a journalist, a journalist, where actually, if the aslef went on strike or the rmt went on strike, wallop, everything was shut down. honestly, we learned something else. it's called working from home. and on that basis, they had no strength and we should have tough them out and eventually let them go . and i eventually let them go. and i would have been as simple as that. and there is no point having a secretary of state for transport who is completely and utterly wired into the trade union movement. >> jim schneider i think that's complete nonsense, >> the train strike, which was being propped up by the government, the government were in effect paying our money to the train operators to not settle with staff. so the government again , i'll say that government again, i'll say that again, the government were in effect, paying the private operators to not settle the strike, not settle the pay

dispute has cost us hundreds of millions of pounds in direct taxpayer money and many more, hundreds of millions of pounds in the cost of the disruption through the strikes. so it's a very good thing that this is settled and train drivers like everyone else, basically in the country, has not seen a pay rise for a very long time and we should all have a pay rise. we shouldn't have falling living standards in a country as wealthy as as ours. and so it's a it's a good agreement. as for this thing about it being a problem to have someone who understands trade unions negotiating around the table with trade unions, it seems like a good outcome. a strike that has been going on that has been costing us hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers money. now, if at the aslef members, if the train drivers accept the, the train drivers accept the, the deal will be over and everybody can move on.

>> well i i'm i'm my sense is that so since the government had come in this new government will come in this new government will come in. there's been a queue outside number 10 of trade union officials at various various unions. now, first of all, the teachers turn up, inflation 2%. you can have 5.5 doctors turn up. you can have 22%. and now this lot you can have 15% over three years. honestly why don't they just say if you're a member of a state run union, which can cause pain to us, you just give us a whistle and we'll send the money round by securicor. i feel that actually somebody has to pay that actually somebody has to pay that bill and i'm concerned about where that bill has to come. >> the bill has been built up over the last 14 years of year on year pay cuts, which is why in the nhs for nurses, doctors and in the in our school system with teachers, we have a

retention crisis. we there are huge numbers of all jobs, true of all jobs. >> not not just state jobs. every employer that you have here i'm talking would say, would say exactly the same thing. so it's not fair. that argument. >> well, for schools and for hospitals, it definitely is because there are lots of unfilled vacancies and there is a big retention crisis, and there's a huge amount of literature of every kind on it. and it's much more than in other industries. so this is a problem that's been built up over 14 years, which needs to needs deaung years, which needs to needs dealing with the if you look at teachers, if you look at nurses, if you look at doctors, they've had pay cuts every single year for 14 years. so getting lots of jobs like that, getting it there's there should be no jobs and there should be. and there should be no the same today as you would have done 20 or 30 years ago. >> and that's just life. >> and that's just life. >> and that's just life. >> and it's not just life. there should be no jobs like that. and

the fact that some workers can organise in their trade unions to get a pay rise is a good thing . thing. >> it helps in order to make me suffer. >> no, it helps. >> no, it helps. >> it helps somebody else to suffer for them to get money. no it doesn't. >> it helps. >> it helps. >> if you're a doctor, you have to kill somebody. charming. >> well, that's a well, yeah. >> well, that's a well, yeah. >> look , somebody suffering from >> look, somebody suffering from cancen >> look, somebody suffering from cancer, they go for. they go. they go to go get a treatment. what happens is the doctors are on strike that day. what happens to that? that that cancer treatment, it doesn't happen . treatment, it doesn't happen. how do you know that it hasn't accelerated that lady's death or that man's death or some relative's death? >> strong feelings in the studio. you will have strong feelings on this at home. the conversation will

gb news. >> a very good evening to you. i'm martin daubney. i'm standing in for the big man, nigel farage. now. shocking remarks by priti patel in a gb news exclusive interview in which she defends the tory party's migration record when knock on doors and ask your listeners, career criminals have more than 100 convictions are being spared jail time whilst the metropolitan police finds itself under the cosh for failing to adequately investigate crimes. next up, the labour party have

made milestones