gb. news >> good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be back after my holibobs. lovely to have your company to this sunday morning. well, let's be honest, it's been a tough week for the prime minister as his proposed plans for banning smoking and outdoor spaces have been met with significant resistance. does starmer need to butt out.7 do you see what we've done there? but out i'll be grilling the leader of the house of commons, lucy powell, as mps return back this week. following the summer recess. andrew griffith, the shadow secretary of for state science, innovation and technology, will be here. i'm going to be asking him all about the labour cronyism row . sir the labour cronyism row. sir iain duncan smith will also be joining me. the former tory leader's think tank has published a major report on broken britain. we're going to discuss that and the race to replace rishi sunak. and of course, starmer's decision to banish margaret thatcher from downing street . apparently she's downing street. apparently she's upsetting him. we'll be asking why. i'll be joined by shadow home secretary and tory

leadership candidate hopeful james cleverly. is he the right man to turn around the tories fortunes and we'll be speaking to professor mark galeotti as he shares his new book, downfall, a gripping analysis of prigozhin, putin and the future for russia. it's the start of a new political term and we've got 90 minutes of punchy politics ahead.so minutes of punchy politics ahead. so do not even think of going anywhere . going anywhere. and it's a fun packed set of . and it's a fun packed set of. sunday papers this morning. and to go through them is matthew laws, a former head of broadcast for the labour party . matthew. for the labour party. matthew. lovely to see you this morning. let's talk about things can only get worse. >> yes, well, the prime minister has been , you know, had his glum has been, you know, had his glum face on this week, which is causing him. he needs to cheer up a little bit. there have been a few good pieces, actually, about how labour needs to have some joy about it. he can't just keep saying that everything's

going wrong and there are noises off in the papers. this morning about of political about the sort of political implications and whether implications of this and whether or sort of or not, you know, the sort of dourness go over dourness is, is going to go over the he's flexing his the top like he's flexing his authoritarian socialist muscles here. >> well, i don't know if you knew matthew, but he is a former director of the office of public prosecutor. his father was a toolmaker, so he wants to set rules. he wants us to not be able to smoke or vape outdoors, but what the telegraph are making hay with is this idea of high earners fleeing britain already because they're worried about the taxes that will go up. we know that working people, matthew, won't be taxed whatever that means. but people are worried about their wealth. they're worried about their property. they're worried about capital gains going up, inheritance tax, stamp duty and all the rest of and then all the rest of it. and then interestingly, the interestingly, analysis by the tax payers allowance, let's just explain because this is explain this because this is particularly interesting. >> so what it says is that when labour came in, obviously one of its first decisions was to endorse the findings of the pubuc endorse the findings of the public sector pay review boards, which gave a pay rise to millions of public sector workers, which is above the current rate of inflation, and

the justification for doing so was that public sector workers had fallen behind over recent years behind the private sector dunng years behind the private sector during the period of high inflation. but the taxpayers alliance and yes, people on the left will say, oh, they would say that, wouldn't they? but when you look at it, it seems that they've got they've nailed the figures, because if you take into account pension contributions and even with the reforms that have gone on, similar sort of vein, we've the contributions and even with the reforms that have gone on, pubuc reforms that have gone on, public sector pensions still pubuc reforms that have gone on, public sector pensions still public sector pensions are still much more generous than private public sector pensions are still much more generous than private sector pensions. if you take those into account, not only sector pensions. if you take those into account, not only have the public sector kept up have the public sector kept up with the private sector over the with the private sector over the last few years, but in fact last few years, but in fact every year since 2010, they have every year since 2010, they have kept up across the whole period. kept up across the whole period. i think it's over 150%. the i think it's over 150%. the increase in the employer increase in the employer contribution, i.e. the contribution, i.e. the contribution, i.e. the contribution from our taxes into contribution, i.e. the contribution from our taxes into those public sector pensions. so those public sector pensions. so it's kind of blasts out of the it's kind of blasts out of the water. the easy argument that water. the easy argument that labour tried to use that it has labour tried to use that it has to do, it has to has to do this to do, it has to has to do this to do, it has to has to do this to keep the public sector to do, it has to has to do this to keep the public sector workers happy. >> i'll be asking lucy powell workers happy. >> i'll be asking lucy powell when she comes on later, whether when she comes on later, whether it's a good idea to prioritise it's a good idea to prioritise the unions over pensioners, not the unions over pensioners, not least with the cut to the winter least with the cut to the winter fuel allowance . matthew, on the fuel allowance . matthew, on the fuel allowance. matthew, on the similar sort of vein , we've fuel allowance. matthew, on the similar sort of vein , we've

similar sort of vein, we've headuned similar sort of vein, we've headlined this national health service because there's three different stories, sort of pointing to the problems , pointing to the problems, particularly with frontline care and gp surgeries. so the sunday telegraph reports that a patient died after emailing his gp surgery because the . gp surgery surgery because the. gp surgery said don't call the mail,

was. it was too late. and this isn't just the mail saying this. the coroner in manchester has said that there is, quote, a risk of further people dying unless gp practices gp practices have, quote, clear and robust systems for online communication because obviously they need to because obviously they need to be able to work out if it's somebody emailing for a repeat prescription versus this chap had breathing difficulties and it took them three days breathing difficulties and they didn't come back for three days, three days. >> i mean if you're if you're manning the phones at a gp surgery, right, you've got one job and that is an immediate role of triage to find out whether the mr hamilton's of this world do need to get in versus, as you say, people who have got an earache or needing it. i just find it . it. i just find it. >> it's extraordinary. >> it's extraordinary. >> it's extraordinary. >> i mean, my gp practice actually did all this before the pandemic. obviously a lot have a lot of gps practices introduced this as a consequence of the pandemic, but so i was we were an early adopter. and it's not only it's not where appointments were completely banned and you had to either you had to phone to get to book an appointment to to, get to be triaged. and it's sort of the problem with gps,

receptionists is, you know, sometimes they're sort of elderly, older, scary women who've been there for a very long time and reduce everybody to tears, but in my gp practice, they can't keep staff. so you've got somebody who's been there for two weeks sort of deciding with no medical training. and this is, as you say, leading to this is, as you say, leading to this feeling that the nhs isn't delivering and it's very interesting that the observer has splashed on this. the joseph rowntree foundation, which is a kind of centre left , think tank, kind of centre left, think tank, for want of a better word. it commissions a lot of research now shows that most people in the uk believe that they are going to have to pay for healthcare, not a minority, but a majority. and that's the first time record numbers. >> i know we can have the inflation versus not in line with inflation argument record numbers going into the nhs in terms of funding. you know, staffing is up and yet still productivity remains low, which frankly, is a subject we could discuss for an entire show. let's move on to something worrying still in the vein of health. and that's superbugs, the sunday times story about a uk veteran's amputation, illustrating how antibiotics are losing the war. >> explain that. so what's

happened is, is that basically antibiotics are proving in this particular case in ukraine that antibiotics are not thriving, let's put it like that. in the circumstances, in those grim battlefield hospital circumstances that we're seeing on the front line in ukraine. so that's kind of the absolute sharp end of healthcare. and that's indicating that, you know, i think we've all got a little bit. a few years ago, we had all these stories that antibiotic resistance was going to be the next big thing. and i think we may have got a think we may have all got a little bit complacent because we saw campaigns try and reduce saw campaigns to try and reduce antibiotic use. >> so people would complain. patients would complain, they'd go to the gp and they wouldn't give them antibiotics or antibiotics for everything. didn't sit it out. however, there's an irony here because my understanding is that the most antibiotics are given out in farming and in agricultural work, rather than in pharmaceuticals, which has created a bigger problem because we then have sort of antibiotics in the water stream . in the in the water stream. in the water stream, and, and in lots of things that you're eating. >> so even though your gp may be very reluctant if you get to see your gp, course, which is one your gp, of course, which is one way you can't get an way of if you can't get an

appointment , way of if you can't get an appointment, you're way of if you can't get an appointment , you're not getting appointment, you're not getting antibiotics. so i think this is going to be the next big story. there's been lots of reports of horrible diseases like super resistant gonorrhoea. sorry for that over breakfast. but which, which is, which is developing and you . absolutely. you can't and you. absolutely. you can't and you. absolutely. you can't and you. absolutely. you can't and you can't treat them. so i think this is going to this is going to rear its ugly head and or have us all worrying again, something funny enough that prince william has warned about and he comes into the next stories that we're going to discuss. >> we're going to discuss two tales of sibling rivalry. and matthew, briefly, because we've got a good headline in the sun, wander wales . nobody got a good headline in the sun, wander wales. nobody can got a good headline in the sun, wander wales . nobody can get wander wales. nobody can get their oasis tickets. have you tried, matthew? i haven't tried, actually, but i mean, an ex of mine used to be. >> we used to work at ticketmaster and so all the company handling the, the bookings would be coming in for a lot of stick this morning. >> well i can imagine because the people have been waiting in a queue of like 400,000. then they get to the finally they get to down one and then the website crashes, which is frustrating, a bit like the nhs, but apparently, well, indeed, we're all having to do everything onune all having to do everything online these days. but, some of the reports in the papers have suggested that the real reason that noel and liam gallagher

haven't been speaking isn't really that rock n roll. it's down to the fact that they didn't get on with each other's wives, which i just think is interesting. you know, in every family in britain there's a problem with somebody who's married, somebody that somebody doesn't like, and then we get into operation, bring harry in from the cold. and these suggestions in the mail on sunday that harry sort of is pining over his old royal life. ian wilson has written, oh, you know, william, you must forgive him. bring him in from the cold. my him. bring him in from the cold. my interpretation of this is that things haven't quite worked out as he planned in montecito. and so harry's. out as he planned in montecito. and so harry's . having second and so harry's. having second thoughts and wanting to reboost his career. but i don't know what you think. >> well, i think it's i think it's i think you're absolutely right. i think the connection is, is that basically both brothers have been resisting , brothers have been resisting, reunions in both the case of oasis and the royal family have now got reasons to so. is now got reasons to do so. one is because to for because noel's got to pay for his £20 million his divorce, his £20 million divorce bill. and obviously that takes takes an in—law, as takes a it takes an in—law, as it were, out of the equation. and with harry because he basically, you know, he's a bit like the british empire. you know, he's lost an empire and

hasn't found a role sitting in sitting in california. it looks like none of their ventures have gone particularly well. you know, we hear they're going to be dropped by netflix. they've already been dropped by spotify, the attempt to kind of what was it, american orchard riviera. and you know, a duchy original style, make our own jam has failed. so it's not really going to come back to britain because he wants to put his hand out and arm out to his brother, but because he hasn't got anything to do and possibly running out of money, as you say as well. so would he be welcome back. >> i mean, wilson's comment that it's for william to kind of show forgiveness in a way. i think that's right. i wrote the same myself some months ago because i made the point that the king will always forgive a son, okay? because fathers tend to do that. it's the rivalry between the two brothers, and particularly the hurt caused over the criticism of the princess of wales, which obviously has taken on a new dimension in the aftermath of her cancer diagnosis. bless her. so can you see, i mean, in the vein of liam and noel? can you see this royal band getting back together ever? >> matthew i think it's more

complicated than than the oasis brothers because as you say, there is so much hurt there. but also, if he comes back, he's, you know, is he going to become a working member of the family? is he going to come back permanently? i think if he basically if he was to get divorced, we don't know that thatis divorced, we don't know that that is going to be the case. and obviously, you know, how's it going to split it? >> be fair, we must specify >> to be fair, we must specify this is all speculation. we must speculate about this. no suggestion of that whatsoever. no, but it's more that this is all just speculation. >> but if he if he's going to be welcomed back into the fold, then they're going to have to do things like not go on on quasi royal tours to colombia, sponsored by one part of the colombian government . so it's colombian government. so it's going to, you know, in return for being embraced, he's going to have to abide by the rules. and i'm not sure that he or particularly meghan, are ready to do that. and that would be the big question. >> colombia. let's hope that prince harry regards the uk as safe enough to visit, because there have been problems about his and his wife's safety. but it's absolutely fine to go to bogota because at the end of the day, everyone knows that it's, you know, you can wander around a really good record on crime, absolutely one of the lowest gun

crime rates in the world. not all right, matthew laza, thank you very, very much indeed for joining me this morning. lovely to speak to you. we hope to have you back on again. always good to get more of a left wing viewpoint on gb news. people criticise us saying, you know, it's all right wing talk. it isn't . it's always very, very isn't. it's always very, very balanced. and we're going to be speaking to lucy powell later, who's going to balance up the conversation. also got the secretary, shadow secretary of state, i should say, for science , state, i should say, for science, innovation and technology. i'm still getting used to the tories being in opposition . andrew being in opposition. andrew griffith is coming on and iain duncan smith and leadership hopeful james cleverly, lots to cover on today's show, so stay tuned

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. lots more still to come. still got ideas coming into the studio. iain duncan smith to discuss the tory leadership and other matters. also going to be speaking to tory leadership

hopeful james cleverly, who wants to replace rishi sunak , wants to replace rishi sunak, and lucy powell will be answering questions on behalf of the labour government. but first, let's speak to . shadow first, let's speak to. shadow secretary of state for science, innovation and technology andrew griffith , who's also the tory mp griffith, who's also the tory mp for arundel and south downs. lovely to see you this morning, mr griffith. thank you very much for up your to for giving up your sunday to talk me. get into this talk to me. let's get into this idea. i wrote it in my column in the telegraph. you might disagree, but i've sort of made the point that i don't think the opposition is particularly coordinated right now. you've got labour making mistake after mistake as far as the public can tell, not least with this outdoor smoking ban and this pessimistic talk about things only getting worse. and yet lots of people are asking, where's rishi sunak ? rishi sunak? >> well, look, it's a team and you're absolutely right, camilla. week by week , this camilla. week by week, this government in all its ghastliness has unfolded over the summer, there's a decent effort from the shadow cabinet. people like myself. we've picked

up different issues. shadow defence secretary has been talking about labour's failure to properly invest in defence and because the department i shadow is one of the most egregious examples of donor gate, where the secretary of state had received £66,000 in donations and immediately parachuted one of these people in as a top civil servant, one of the most important powerful civil servants, not as a political adviser, but someone who's got the power to hire and fire other civil servants. so as we go back to business tomorrow and you've covered this story well , but not and you've covered this story well, but not all of and you've covered this story well , but not all of the well, but not all of the mainstream media outlets have. as we go back to parliament tomorrow , we all return back to tomorrow, we all return back to school. one of the top items on the agenda must be getting to the agenda must be getting to the bottom of the donor gate scandal. it touches the chancellor, it touches angela rayner and peter karl, the secretary of state for the science, innovation and technology. >> why didn't the tories make more hay with sue grey's

appointment in the first place? i mean, this was the so—called impartial partygate pooper. the woman who investigates boris johnson. she then becomes appointed as chief of staff to keir starmer, which most people could say might have sniffed a smelled a bit iffy, might have sniffed a bit. we then get news that her son, luke conlan, has been selected for a plum labour seat. he then gets elected . he seat. he then gets elected. he is then given £10,000 by lord alli. he's just one of two constituency campaigns who receives money from lord alli, who we then find out has been paying who we then find out has been paying money towards keir starmer's suits and glasses. i mean , i can't quite work out why mean, i can't quite work out why he didn't go to specsavers, but perhaps you can answer that question. andrew doesn't this whole thing need to be investigated? but including sue grey's appointment, the tories were far too silent on all this stuff when it happened . stuff when it happened. >> well, yeah. look, you're absolutely right. and we've got to do a really, really important

job of holding this government to account. it was elected on the lowest possible mandate of any modern government. we lost, for sure, but that doesn't mean ordinary folk up and down the country don't look to us as the official opposition to hold them to account. i believe many of my colleagues are doing exactly that. we're out there each and every day and i think, look, the mood is shifting rapidly. this government, i don't follow polls obsessively , but by all obsessively, but by all accounts, it's squandered any support it had. it's the most unpopular at this stage of any new change of party government. and i think people are realising whether it's the draconian smoking ban, the handling of the riots, the attacks on freedom of speech or this government that said it was going to be whiter than white. they all say that and has come in and parachuted donors, people who've given tens of thousands of pounds into the independent civil service, not as political advisers. i think it's as political advisers. i think wsfime as political advisers. i think it's time that we had a proper

investigation by somebody independent. the adviser on ministerial standards. >> oh, okay. so we've got civil service commissioner baroness gisela stuart, famously a brexiteer. i remember her from the campaign. she's reviewing the campaign. she's reviewing the civil service appointments. but what are you saying that you think that it's daniel goldberg, isn't it? the parliamentary standards commissioner should be looking into what exactly can you spell that out, mr griffith . you spell that out, mr griffith. >> absolutely. so this this donor gate, cash for jobs has been slow burn over the summer. myself, henry newman. others have been calling this out week by week, day by day, on social media and elsewhere, what needs to happen now? because it's not going away. and once you politically corrupt the civil service, you can't unbake that cake. it's one of the few strengths of our system is that the civil service continues regardless of government. that can't be the case if you've made political appointees who themselves have the power . to

themselves have the power. to hire and fire and run big budgets, so what needs to happen? the civil service commission has pretty much indicated its displeasure by saying that they are running an investigation into the more junior roles, whereby open and fair competition hasn't been used to a point. but the most senior roles, the very most powerful civil servants, including the one that's working with the chancellor, the one that's being given a whole new department in science, innovation and technology are not part of that review, and the only person who can really look at that is sir laurie magnus, who's the prime minister's independent adviser, on whether the ministerial code has been broken. if you make appointments, particularly if you make appointments to the civil service, using an exceptions process and don't reveal their support for labour or these very substantial donations that they've made in the past, that is a breach of the past, that is a breach of the civil of the ministerial code. i don't know that you don't know that because no one is coming clean. we need an

investigation. >> but i'm saying so i get laurie magnus, and i get baroness stuart's investigation. but do you also want the parliamentary standards commissioner to come in on this? who's a different person, isn't it? >> no, i think i think this is about the ministerial code. right. which is to police the conflict of interest of a secretary of state a very powerful minister coming in and parachuting into the independent civil service people who've got political affiliations or have made donations. that's about political affiliations or have made donations . that's about the made donations. that's about the ministerial code, which talks about dealing with that conflict or even the appearance of conflict. what we need to hear from probably the prime minister tomorrow, camilla, is to come to parliament and announce that he's asked his independent adviser to see whether the ministerial code has been broken. i have to say it looks like it has. it looks, you know, very, very fishy. but we'll only know when there's an independent investigation. and in the meantime, should there be a great story isn't going away. >> should there be an investigation into how sue

grey's son, luke conlan, was selected and elected ? selected and elected? >> i mean, that's probably not my priority because i think that's probably very much about how the labour party itself operates. all political parties have their own processes. what everyone. and this isn't just a partisan issue. the left leaning institute for government, funded by the joseph rowntree foundation, has also criticised these crony donor appointments to the civil service. that's something that everybody should worry about. the labour party can worry about their selection procedures. yeah, others will worry about different aspects . worry about different aspects. but politicising our civil service in a way , there's no service in a way, there's no going back from that. you know, we've always had political special advisers perfectly legitimate. some people say there should be fewer or more . there should be fewer or more. but politicising our civil service crosses a rubicon. we can't go back. >> okay, mr griffith, let's balance this conversation up , balance this conversation up, because you've had a good free rein there on labour and cronyism. you mentioned in your

conversation about the draconian smoking ban . hang on a minute. smoking ban. hang on a minute. it was rishi sunak that laid the foundations for this. he's the one who wanted to ban generational smoking. i appreciate actually , mr appreciate actually, mr griffith, you voted against the tobacco and vapes bill, but plenty of tories didn't. so aren't we just seeing labour doubung aren't we just seeing labour doubling down on red conservative policies ? conservative policies? >> yeah, look i was i voted against that. i thought that was against that. i thought that was a mistake. then well—intentioned , a mistake. then well—intentioned, but nevertheless a mistake. we are the party that believes the state should be our servant rather than our master. and to me, that was a step too far in terms of the nanny state, the bossy state. so i it was a free vote. for all fairness to rishi sunak, the prime minister, it was a free vote, but nevertheless it it did divide the conservative party, the one bastion of liberty and freedom this country has got . that's this country has got. that's more important now than ever. and i do regret the fact that to, to, to, to a degree in this

and a number of other domains, we ended up being front runners for the full throated socialism policy that we're now seeing. >> i mean, this this whole idea of us, you know, becoming inured to historically high tax burdens, that's something that was created under the conservatives. i mean, the tax burden , percentage of gdp back burden, percentage of gdp back in john major's day in 1993 was 28%. it's now fast approaching 38%. and the biggest spike happened under boris johnson. >> well, camilla, you've been you've been a strident voice in holding us to account. and i'm a low tax conservative. i think that's you know, conservatives raise taxes as a last resort. labour raised taxes as a first resort. we're seeing that the first the very first time they get to do a budget, despite the improving economic conditions , improving economic conditions, everything looks like they're going to be raising taxes and they've already had this cruel attack on pensioners with the winter fuel payment, i think our position on tax is more defensible, if i may, simply because of the externality of the global covid pandemic. and everybody was very happy when we

were spending £400 billion to protect the corporation tax rise. >> but , well, the rise. >> but, well, the public finances have been under under pressure for a long time, really since 2008, we inherited a very difficult position . difficult position. >> so i think, look, i'm a low tax conservative and i want to get back as quickly as possible to where the state takes less of people's money because people spend their own money more wisely than governments, amen to that , mr griffith. we're wisely than governments, amen to that, mr griffith. we're going to a bit more nuanced than something like a attack on liberty with the smoking ban. >> okay, mr griffiths, we're going to have to leave it there. but thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. for forjoining me this morning. for having me. it's coming up next along with james cleverly. don't go anywhere because we will be back in just a jiffy

well . welcome back. much more to well. welcome back. much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the former

conservative leader, sir iain duncan smith, and the current hopeful tory leader candidate james cleverly. but first, here's the news with sam francis . here's the news with sam francis. >> camilla, thank you very much and good morning to you. just after 10:00. well, the top story from the newsroom this morning, six israeli hostages have been found dead in a tunnel in gaza, including hersh goldberg—polin , including hersh goldberg—polin, a high profile captive, also an american citizen. israel's military believes hamas killed them shortly before rescue forces arrived. president biden, who met goldberg—polin parents, says he's outraged and has warned that hamas will, he says, pay warned that hamas will, he says, pay for their crimes. warned that hamas will, he says, pay for their crimes . meanwhile, pay for their crimes. meanwhile, a temporary pause . in fighting a temporary pause. in fighting has begun in gaza today, allowing international aid agencies to launch a mass polio vaccination campaign. over 600,000 children under the age of ten will be immunised during

breaks in the conflict over the next three days. it follows the first confirmed case of polio in the territory in a quarter of a century, with a ten month old baby now paralysed from the virus. that ceasefire, though, will only last during daylight hours . here, police are pushing hours. here, police are pushing for upgraded charges after two victims attacked separately at the notting hill carnival have sadly died. one was a mother stabbed in front of her young child and the other a chef who worked with gordon ramsay. the home secretary has called the news deeply distressing and shocking. yvette cooper has condemned the terrible and appalling violence, saying it has no place on our streets . in has no place on our streets. in surrey, police have confirmed they are not seeking anyone else in connection with the death of three children and a man found at a staines home yesterday. that incident, described as isolated, took place around lunchtime and is currently under investigation. the force, though, has referred itself to the police watchdog due to having prior contact with those involved. no further details at

this stage have been released and the investigation is continuing . an absence epidemic. continuing. an absence epidemic. that's how the education secretary has described the number of pupils missing from school. bridget phillipson told the sunday times she won't apologise for fining parents who frequently absent children. she claims too many mums and dads are letting kids skip school for holidays , birthdays or, she holidays, birthdays or, she says, even a runny nose. the government's crackdown aims to tackle the growing issue as the new school year begins . new school year begins. restrictions on the movement of sheep and cattle have been introduced across two counties. the limitations in norfolk and suffolk follow several confirmed cases of the animal disease known as bluetongue. five premises are known to be infected, and defra officials are looking to see if the virus may be spreading. oasis are urging fans to be wary of counterfeit and void tickets on the secondary market. that's after their reunion tour next year sold out last night. the

process of buying tickets lasted over ten hours as people eager to see the gallagher brothers complained about error messages being kicked out of queues or being kicked out of queues or being mistaken for bots on some sites. and finally, a thunderstorm warning has been issued for large parts of england and wales. the met office says there could be frequent lightning strikes and hail until 9:00 tonight, stretching from the isle of wight all the way to the scottish border . those are the scottish border. those are the latest headlines . for now i'm latest headlines. for now i'm sam francis. more for you in an hour. houn >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> thanks, sam. welcome back to the camilla tominey show still lots more to come in. just a minute. i'm going to be joined by the former leader of the

conservatives, sir iain duncan smith. from his own experience, who does he think is best placed to take on the top job in opposition? i'm also going to be joined by the man hoping to take on that role and replace rishi sunak, james cleverly. can he win the tory leadership race? and we'll be joined by professor mark galeotti, who is going to be discussing his new book downfall, which examines prigozhin, putin and the new fight for the future of russia and leader of the house of commons lucy powell, will also be here in time to answer some questions on behalf of the government. as mps return to back to business after the summer recess. is starmer doing a good job? we'll be asking her that. but first, ids the mp for chingford and woodford green is in the gb news studio. lovely to see you, ian. thank you very much for sparing the time. let's speak first of all about this report that your think tank , the report that your think tank, the centre for social justice, has produced, called unite the nafion produced, called unite the nation and this is very much tapping into this idea that britain is broken and it needs to be fixed. what's the top line from that piece of . research?

ian. >> well, the number one line, i think, is how do you get local communities to be able to take charge of directing their help and support, particularly younger people from a local perspective. thus generating more jobs and more places and more jobs and more places and more training. and andy burnham, who is on this panel as well, it was a cross—party affair, was very keen to say, look, let us do more of this. and he he pinched something from the csj already to try and get people back into work. so there are some good indications there. we were working on that when i was secretary of state for work and pensions. how do you localise through the local job centres? working with the labour party? and there was the thing we discussed, called universal support to go next to universal credit. and that's where you take the most difficult people, move them out into things like debt counselling, drugs, addiction problems, all those things you put them right, then you move them back in into the work stuff. >> but you're talking about devolving powers and responsibilities for those particularly difficult cases to a local government level, rather than this kind of command and control structure from the

centre here, it's always inflexible if you do it like that. >> although to be fair, the dwp is localised anyway. they've got a job centre in pretty much every community. the question is how does that job centre work in conjunction with local authorities , local councils, authorities, local councils, local charities? that's the bit that the csj is talking about and devolving some of that money will make them a centre and a hub for training and for support through ill health, etc. on that subject, i mean, unemployment remains at a, you know , remains at a, you know, consistent low, which is, to be fair, a testament to the tories, the one thing that the party did get right, but this worklessness epidemic that we've seen particularly spike since covid. >> what's your reaction to that? because when you left office, there weren't as many people were there on benefits. what were there on benefits. what were there on benefits. what were the numbers and what are they now? >> well, we had the lowest number of workless households since records began and work was paying since records began and work was paying and people were going back into work. the biggest problems are always, how do people end up being out of work for a year or two? and then

becoming almost impossible to get back into work. so we had the lowest number of long term unemployed as well, because we used different programmes. one was the work programme, which was the work programme, which was successful. the key problem we've got here right now is since covid it became altogether too easy for people to drift into benefits because most of the checks and crackdowns that took place within universal credit were loosened completely, catching up with that, after you then get a wage scar of a year or two on your back, which is what's happening here. kids falling into mental health problems, issues where they're ending up on benefits early on in their lives. there's a very dangerous bit. and that's why what the report is focusing on is how do you get to those children before they end up leaving school? because when you . leaving school? because when you. leave school at 15 or even 16, you don't actually end up on benefits and you don't get recognised in the job centre until you're 18. that's two years away from work out of any functional behaviour. which is why talking about getting those kids into things like a kind of

national service, some military training, but at the same time learning, self—discipline, structure and then being helped into work is one of the recommendations in the report. and it's . a very good and it's. a very good recommendation. it should be taken very seriously by labour, although i hear1 or 2 ministers although i hear 1 or 2 ministers are quite keen on it. >> okay, good. so there can be some cross—party collaboration on that. we hope. let's look at the broader political picture. what's your analysis as a former leader of the opposition of the first, what is it now? six weeks of keir starmer's government . of keir starmer's government. >> well first of all, you now realise to what degree they were not cross—examined enough during the course of a long period in opposition, because we became such a shambolic mess. that and arguing amongst ourselves that the biggest problem was labour got off the hook . their got off the hook. their manifesto said nothing. they talked about vaguely not raising taxes, but now what do we realise ? we realise actually had realise? we realise actually had an agenda of who they dislike , an agenda of who they dislike, most of all pensioners and people who they say aren't workers because they actually have worked hard, saved and put

into investments. so they want to get, after all those people who have done exactly what they were told to do, get yourself away from the state, look after your families. those are the people that are going to get hit very hard by labour. none of this was talked about during the election. they just well, because nobody seemed to nail them on this one at all. >> but why do you think that the conservatives sort of kept the gloves on? you know , gloves on? you know, historically you've always had this idea of the opposition taking the fight to whoever's in government you experienced the other end of it when you were leader of the opposition against tony blair. it strikes me, and i did ask this of andrew green with your colleague earlier . with your colleague earlier. where is rishi sunak in all this? is the leader of the opposition currently? i appreciate he's in an interim role, but serious decisions are being made as we speak. we can't just all pause on and have this internal dialogue about what is conservatism and what is the future, where are the attack lines coming from, and are you confident that your what's remained of the tory party, your tory colleagues can sort of galvanise and coordinate and mount an effective opposition, because i think the public are

kind wondering where sunak, kind of wondering where sunak, his deputy dowden and everyone actually is. >> yeah. i mean, there are questions to be asked that you have an opposition at the moment . have an opposition at the moment. you have people shadowing ministers and you have an opposition leader as well as those who are part of that team. so i would simply say to them, you've got a job to do right now. you can't just quit the stage and wait for the, the opposition leaders debate to take place and for the votes, they have a responsibility to be up on the front line just like anybody else does. because if they care for this party and they care for this party and they care for their country, even if they're not going to be standing as leader or as shadow minister or whatever, i simply say to them, you have a task to do. you have a responsibility. this is a public service. you're not there because, oh, i lost at the last election. yeah, you lost the last election. we lost big time. that doesn't mean to say we just walk away and cry in the corner somewhere. this government is getting away with absolute murder at the moment. although i have to say, the pubuc although i have to say, the public has noticed it. i see their poll ratings are beginning to fall quite significantly

because people realise they were basically lied to throughout the whole of that last three year period, so we've got to get after them. i accept that there would be leaders have got to do that, but at the same time, you've got to recognise the conservative party has got a real fight on its hands to retain that idea that it is the opposition and not allow others to steal that coat. >> who do you fancy in the current leadership race? because you haven't nailed your colours to the mast? so far you've been quite quiet about who you're going to support and who you're going to support and who you're going to support will probably be quite influential because of your history in the party. you're a veteran. you're called a grey hair. i mean , maybe you a grey hair. i mean, maybe you might. i know it's i'm sorry to call you that, but that's the truth. i thought perhaps you might fancy tom tugendhat purely on the basis that he's quite hawkish, for instance, on china and russia and foreign affairs. but yet people think he's a bit wet, got bad knock. you've got your friend priti patel, who i know you're close with personally. james cleverly is about to come into the studio. who might you put your money on? >> well, they're all i think they're i don't have a particular favourite at the moment. i've not deliberately

just said i'm not going to talk about it. i promised that i would after a very gruelling election. i was going to have some time off. yes, to do the things that i really wanted to do away from politics, which i've been doing. i just got back yesterday and i promised all of them. i will think very carefully about it before i cast my vote. and no, i don't at the moment and haven't made a decision , there is for me no decision, there is for me no standout right now, but what what will convince you most? >> because i was saying earlier when we were doing the paper review, you know, i can't still believe that you've got people like andy street, lovely guy, former tory mayor for west midlands, saying, you know, we've got to fight the next election from the centre. we can't fight it from the right. and i think writing is listening and watching this programme. think if you're a tory saying you shouldn't be fighting an election from the right, you may as well go and join the liberal democrats. >> well, actually, i wrote a piece about this for the telegraph about two and a half weeks ago, and i said, i wish people would stop talking about the centre ground. it's non—existent . it's a political, non—existent. it's a political, mysterious mystery to me. i go

back to the thatcher days when keith joseph, who was the brilliant architect of most of what she did with great courage, talked about the common ground. now the common ground is a different element altogether. the common ground in politics is about where the public are . you about where the public are. you have to find that common ground with them that you will be able not just to appeal to them, but govern from. so you understand their fears, their aspirations , their fears, their aspirations, where they want the country to go and what they're worried aboutin go and what they're worried about in their own lives. you've seen it with migration. you've seen it with migration. you've seen it with worklessness, you've seen it with lack of training. i mean, if you look at the uk at the moment, the labour government is in with a huge majority, but the lowest poll rating any government has ever achieved. >> the lowest vote share 33%, 33%, just over 33% at least. >> blair got 44% when he got elected. and we got 43, i think. >> well, even corbyn got 2019. >> well, even corbyn got 2019. >> keir starmer has achieved this is this is therefore just the way the electoral system works because the division was split, the main bit about this is that they are not pitched on

the common ground, you know, with the unions, with these pay demands, we're going to see this unravel. >> whereas with blair there was a lot of popular support there. there isn't right now. so where the conservative party has got to look for right now, the common ground is not the centre ground. the centre is just some mushy place where people go to say, i'm not one thing or the other. yeah politics is about declaring who you are focusing on the public. the public wants certain things sorted out and they're angry. they're angry with us because we were in government quite rightly, because we promised migration control. we didn't get it. we promised that we would deliver all of the benefits of brexit we hadnt all of the benefits of brexit we hadn't done. i wish people would stop talking. we've delivered . stop talking. we've delivered. no we haven't. no huge amount of regulatory change that would benefit people in jobs in terms of investment, whole areas of business. the common ground is where they are. we need to occupy that pitch. our message to them. that's the majority of the public, people who left us, people who didn't vote for us. >> but does that require basically a return to sort of common sense thatcherism? >> it requires us to become .

>> it requires us to become. conservatives again. yes. and stop messing around. >> start, wouldn't it? >> start, wouldn't it? >> i mean . you know, it's quite >> i mean. you know, it's quite peculiar, really, to stand as a conservative and then say, i don't really want to be one. yes, you have to be a conservative. and that common ground they will ground is where they will coalesce with you, if that's what you're talking about. >> very question. just >> very quick question. just because are very because i know you are very hot on matters, on china and chinese matters, and story in the and there's a story in the papers it's in papers today. i think it's in the sunday telegraph suggesting that taiwan been removed that taiwan has been removed from gcse textbooks on the say so of chinese officials doesn't the department for education need to investigate this? why are we seeing taiwan erased from british literature that's used in schools? >> because government and officials are bullied by the chinese government endlessly . chinese government endlessly. and i'm afraid ministers too often my own government ministers kowtowed to china on this. so we're now seeing these people believing they have to get rid of this. otherwise they'll have problems with chinese students coming in also. by chinese students coming in also. by way , there's a story in by the way, there's a story in the papers today about how the army's uniforms are being made in china. that's a mistake. we

are completely barking mad. and i tell you, one of the big issues for me in this leadership election will be strength on recognising china poses the most vital threat to . the way we live vital threat to. the way we live our lives. more than any other time since the 1930s. >> right, i shall be. >> right, i shall be. >> that is critical to me. if i have people unable to understand that and the labour party has got to do something, they were goodin got to do something, they were good in opposition. they're now very suddenly in very weak now suddenly in government. that's very government. so that's very critical. they are dangerous with russia , north korea, iran, with russia, north korea, iran, they're an axis of evil that will actually dominate us. and they're already winning that battle . battle. >> well, i shall put that question to the shadow foreign secretary, james cleverly , who's secretary, james cleverly, who's going to join us next to discuss his tory leadership bid. iain. duncan smith, thank you very, very much indeed for coming in. and that report is on the csj, the centre for social justice website. well worth reading to checkit website. well worth reading to check it out. thank you very much. as i say, coming up next, we're going to have james

cleverly in the studio. is the to man take the tories to its thatcherite roots? stay tuned for

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. james cleverly joins me in the studio. sorry, james, i described you as the shadow foreign. i always get this confused. you are a shadow foreign secretary. well, foreign secretary for a long time. then you became home secretary. so you're now shadow home secretary. so i apologise for not speaking earlier. i don't mind, can we talk? first of all, before we get into all of the leadership stuff, i just want to put something to you. because tories have obviously been banging on about this smoking banging on about this smoking ban and going, oh, you know, what are labour doing? they're so authoritarian trying to ban smoking and vaping outdoors. you did vote for the tobacco and vapes bill. yeah. so the argument is that the tories laid the foundation for these sorts of draconian measures. i don't buy into that at all. >> look, there is a massive difference between taking action to prevent young people starting

a habit that we all know is deeply unhealthy, very, very , deeply unhealthy, very, very, very unhealthy. that's one thing. and it's a completely different thing. saying to adults who already smoke. and whilst, you know, i used to smoke, i don't smoke anymore. and saying to them, oh, actually, what we're going to do is nibble away at your freedoms. i think the labour party shows cowardice on their part because they're saying, oh, you can't smoke indoors and now you can't smoke indoors and now you can't smoke outdoors, but can smoke outdoors, but you can definitely smoke and they definitely still smoke and they should just be more honest about it. >> no, but people might think that the tories laid the foundations for this nanny state ism. and, you know , we had ism. and, you know, we had george osborne suggesting sort of pasty and sugar taxes. we had a conservative government obviously locking us down for months on end. we've had free money in the form of furlough. it's like all of this sort of like big state initiative sort of has started over the last. it started with blair, admittedly, but it was continued over 14 years by the conservatives. and now you're complaining. so when he's being authoritarian? >> no, camilla, when something of the magnitude of covid

happens, you have to act in a different way. so churchill dunng different way. so churchill during the war, had to put in place loads of things like rationing, curfews, a whole load of limitations, which you don't do in normal circumstances, but you do because of the events. that's what we had to do with covid. that's why we made decisions during that uniquely difficult period of time that we would not do normally . and i would not do normally. and i think it was andrew who said about taxation, for example, the conservatives put up taxes when we have to. labour put up taxes whenever they can get away with it. it's the same with these kind of things. we take actions like this not because we enjoy it , because we really don't, but it, because we really don't, but because there are times when you have to take action. >> don't we now look back on the lockdowns and regret some of the actions that were taken? not only were they deeply regrettable for hindsight and mental health, but also economically catastrophic. >> so hindsight is a wonderful thing. >> you say. hindsight. people like me on the telegraph were warning at the time that some of the measures that you were taking were disastrous. >> yeah, but yeah, they were

arguments on that side. >> they were in hindsight, loads of people were saying, hang on, you're locking down far too fast and quickly you're and too quickly and you're continuing it for too long. >> loads of people were saying that loads of people were saying the opposite. the choice presented to government ministers was to how balance the respective pressures in hindsight. and look, i'm i'm very, very conscious that there were plenty of people who were worried about that at the time. and, and, you know, you being one of them. but the government had to make a series of very difficult decisions at the time. okay. we have now learned from that. and i'm sure if there were ever a circumstance like this, we would do things very, very, very differently. >> so we can blame lockdown and some of those measures on obviously the unprecedented circumstances of covid. we can blame perhaps this historically high tax burden on the aftermath of covid and the war in ukraine and all the rest of it. what can we blame on the conservatives for failing to honour successive

governments pledges on legal migration? what can we blame that on? >> well, when i was home secretary, i brought migration down. >> well, it didn't have much choice. i mean, it was historically beyond the realms of even david cameron's tens of thousands. >> so, look, i'm putting myself forward to be the leader of the conservative party and work towards being prime minister. the point that i am making is that you can do one of two things in politics. you can point to a problem and shout. or you can deal with a problem. when it was my responsibility to deal with this problem, i dealt with the problem. i got the rwanda legislation through the . rwanda legislation through the. house of commons. i negotiated with the treasury and department for education, department of health to change the visa regime, which has seen something like a 40% reduction in the visas that were most problematic. that is projected to reduce net migration by 300,000, which labour will now reap the benefits of because of rishi sunak's quite preposterous decision to call an early

election. but the point is the job that i was tasked with doing , job that i was tasked with doing, yeah, i did, did moan about it, didn't groan about it, rolled up my sleeves, got on with it. >> okay. that's fine. when you were home secretary, but when you were cabinet members and an mp and involved in the management of the conservative party, could see legal party, you could see legal migration, forget illegal migration, forget illegal migration and stopping the boats. let's just look at legal migration going up and up and up. you could see successive manifesto pledges broken by the conservatives. we had david cameron talking about tens of thousands. we had theresa may talking about tens of thousands. we had your old mate boris johnson, not really that bothered about immigration, which might have been a problem and might have been one of the reasons for his demise. successive conservative governments have broken their promise public on promise to the british public on immigration. it's . all very immigration. so it's. all very well saying that at the nth hour when you came in, you tried to do something about it. shouldn't have got that high in the first place. >> i didn't try to do something about it. >> lots of people have tried to do something it.

do something about it. i actually did something about it. >> if you have a tory leader, what would legal migration be? >> would you cap it and what would you cap it at and how would you cap it at and how would you cap it? >> so this is so this is a really, really interesting a really, really interesting a really important question because the easiest thing for me to say, i would cap it to do is say, oh, i would cap it at point is the at 100,000. but the point is the british moment british people at the moment don't because we've don't trust us because we've talked tough on immigration. >> they will trust you. if you did what you said. >> well, this is the point i'm making. so it's not about what you say, it's about what you do. and when i was when i was responsible for this, it is possible to . possible to. >> because you were home secretary. >> can you? >> can you? >> i was responsible because we hear from lots of people, particularly on the left. oh it's impossible. health care will collapse. so will hospitality, is it? we've had reform talk about net zero immigration, which might road and then rowed back on it almost immediately. so that might not be realistic. you tell me. you're a former home secretary. is it possible legally , is it possible legally, practically and logistically to cap legal migration at 100,000? >> well , the figure is entirely >> well, the figure is entirely dependent on the needs of the country. >> and one of the reasons why i'm saying we need to we need to measure our wealth as a nation fundamentally differently. at the moment, we measure overall

gdp and we should be measuring gdp and we should be measuring gdp per person. how wealthy we are per person. so, for example, india has a much higher total gdp than switzerland, but the swiss are individually much wealthier than indians. so what wealthier than indians. so what we need to do is we need to start by measuring the right thing that will then help us understand how much migration we need, because there will be times when you need to turn it up, and times when you need to turn it down. and different sectors, different sectors may need different, different times. but the point, the point i'm making with regard to the conservative party's history with talking about migration is to say i am happy to take responsibility for the time that i was responsible for it, and when i personally was responsible for it, we brought the figures down massively. so i'm very proud of my record and if i led the party it would be that focus on delivery rather than rhetoric. all right. that will be the hallmark of my time as leader. >> all tories talk a good game on low taxes. if you were a tory leader, which tax would you cut first? >> well, i would prioritise work

related taxes. i think we need to get back into the habit of rewarding work. i am not going to go into detailed tax proposals, but do you fancy unfreezing those tax bands that have dragged, fiscally dragged a lot of middle earners into high income tax thresholds? yeah, look. and the taxes that are, that were created for the super wealthy now affect a whole load of people like inheritance tax those tax bands. so what we need to do is overall, as i say, i'm not going to go line by line at this stage. >> things like for instance, because it would be very attractive to tory voters, wouldn't it. if you said that you were looking to look at perhaps scrapping or reducing inheritance tax? >> well, i know , tempting as it >> well, i know, tempting as it will be during an election campaign, i am not going to make a specific tax commitments. but the broad point, and i've said this publicly, if you want to understand milton friedman made this point. milton, if you want to understand how much your government is taxing you look at how much your government is spending because all public spending because all public spending ultimately gets paid

for by the taxpayer, either through direct taxation or through direct taxation or through inflation or through borrowing. so we need to reduce our spending. now, the one area i think we need to spend more on is defence. and i'm committed to 3% of gdp in defence, in defence. but ian is absolutely right. our welfare bill has run out of control. we need to get that back down. we need to get people in work rather than on benefits. we need to make sure we give people that liberating opportunity to earn for themselves, rather than live on government. >> time is fast running out, but i just wanted to ask you about one more interview that's in the sunday telegraph with andy cook, who is the chief inspector of the constabulary. he's the person who oversees the police force, and he basically used the word dysfunctional to describe our police forces in this country. we've obviously had the whole debate about two tier policing, which i know you commented on throughout the riots. i mean, what needs to happen to the police force is the police force broken? >> well, i was on the metropolitan police authority when i first got elected. i was

responsible for kicking corrupt police officers out of the met andindeed police officers out of the met and indeed sending some of them to prison. so i've been looking at the governance of policing since i started in politics. we need to go back to first principles. the police need to stop being scared of being accused of politicising their decisions. they need to police completely , fairly. whether completely, fairly. whether you're black, white, gay, straight , whatever, everyone straight, whatever, everyone gets policed. the same palestinian, everyone gets, everyone gets policed. the same. and that is the cornerstone of confidence in british policing. we also need to understand that they need to focus on the crimes that affect people's everyday lives. when i was home secretary, i made it absolutely clear they were to pursue all reasonable lines of inquiry. they were to crack down on shoplifting this idea. there was a £200 limit. get rid of that . a £200 limit. get rid of that. because if you don't crack down on the small crimes, those criminals get more and more severe and then you have a real problem. >> so it is not enough to build

more prison places, because obviously, if you're going to have a crackdown and a more zero tolerance approach, then you're going to have more people in prisons and the prisons are full. >> well, the simple fact is we want to send fewer people to prison by having fewer people committing crimes. so cracking down on the criminal behaviour, catching people early when they're doing the kind of crimes that you would never put people to prison for, would you put people in prison, by the way, for putting things on facebook, like the 54 year old. so this is getting ridiculous. this is getting ridiculous. this is getting 18 months. >> she got i mean , is that >> she got i mean, is that really so is that was that a mistake in sentencing 15 months? it was an albeit terrible facebook post. it was very disparaging about muslims and suggesting, you know, inciting violence against a mosque. but as far as i could tell that she didn't have any previous convictions. >> she's in for 15. >> she's in for 15. >> so incitement is a serious issue . but >> so incitement is a serious issue. but this >> so incitement is a serious issue . but this overall trend issue. but this overall trend that we're seeing from the labour government of criminalising criminalising voices they just don't like, we

have got to be very, very, very careful about that. i'm deeply uncomfortable with that . uncomfortable with that. >> and finally, iain duncan smith was in the studio just earlier. i know you heard the interview. he's saying that china is the biggest threat that britain faces. do you agree with him ? him? >> it's china is the biggest threat but also the biggest opportunity. it is the most significant emerging power. when i was foreign secretary, traditionally you have a mansion house speech where you talk about all kinds of things going on around the world. when i was foreign secretary, i dedicated the whole speech to our relationship with china. >> i know, but if you're seeing china always as an opportunity for investment, then what happens? as i said, that's not what i said. >> but but this is the trouble. and it kind of, you know, george osborne and david cameron came unstuck here, didn't they? >> and that's not what i'm saying. >> it's this idea that of course we want chinese investment. if it's valuable to the city of for london instance. and equally, you know, it's great for universities to have chinese students propping up fees.

they're paying 30 grand. a child here is paying nine grand. but then you get stories like we've read this morning that you get chinese officials interfering in what we teach in our schools. >> that's not what i was saying. that's not what i said in the speech. in the speech, i said, you cannot pretend china away. you cannot pretend china is not a huge global economic power. but we've also got to make sure that if there is ever a conflict between defending our interests and gaining business from china, we always defend our interests. i also made the point that to defend ourselves properly against chinese influence, we need to build alliances around the world, including including in the indo—pacific and asia , in the indo—pacific and asia, parts of the world, and also that we make sure we engage with china directly, which is why i flew to china. and when i spoke face to face with the chinese foreign minister, my opposite number, i demanded . that he stop number, i demanded. that he stop sanctioning iain duncan smith and niyak ghorbani and tom tugendhat and others. did he agree with that . no, they

agree with that. no, they didn't, but i looked him in the eye and made it absolutely clear that their behaviour was unacceptable. >> okay, james cleverly, good luck this week because it's the first vote on wednesday. >> i believe, and another vote after that. so good luck with the start of the new school term, so to speak, and indeed the leadership race. and the tory leadership race. and thank for coming in to thank you for coming in to gb news. speak to you. news. lovely to speak to you. well, about china. well, we've spoken about china. we're about we're going to speak about russia going russia next, because i'm going to professor mark to be speaking to professor mark galeotti, be galeotti, who is going to be discussing his new book, downfall, about downfall, which is about prigozhin death, but prigozhin prigozhin's death, but also the future of putin's administration. don't go

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. right. let's discuss all things russia and ukraine. related. now i'm joined by professor mark galeotti. lovely to see you this morning, professor. thank you very much. i want to discuss your new book, downfall. prigozhin putin and the new fight for the future of russia.

let's just update our audience really, with where we're at. we've obviously had the ukrainian pushback in kursk. we've got well, we haven't heard that much from putin over the summer, admittedly. but this war, let's be honest, has gone for on far, far longer than the russian president would have imagined. >> yeah, absolutely. and to be perfectly honest, there's no real signs that it's going to end soon. certainly not in the way that he would like . it's, i way that he would like. it's, i hesitate to call it a stalemate. it's a dynamic stalemate. the front lines move back and forth, but neither side can impose defeat on the other . and defeat on the other. and considering that russia is a country with almost four times the population, originally a massive army and so forth, that can only be considered to be at the moment a defeat for putin. >> and is this ukrainian offensive into russia? i mean , offensive into russia? i mean, does that destabilise putin? doesit does that destabilise putin? does it actually have the adverse effect of poking the bear too much? how might that play bear too much? how might that play out? professor >> i mean, it's interesting because it's on the one hand we

can see, for example, if one looks at those agencies that track . social media, which is track. social media, which is not the best index of public opinion, but given that this is an authoritarian regime, we can't carry out proper opinion polls or the like. it's one of the few. we've got massive increase in the amount of disaffection around , disaffection around, particularly around putin personally, that sense that he's let them down because one of his key legitimating functions was to be the sort of the guardian of the motherland. so people are unhappy, and also they feel that the 200,000 refugees have basically been left to their own devices. but it doesn't necessarily mean . that they're necessarily mean. that they're thinking, right, we now have to do something about it. but there's also this sort of gut level patriotism. and in fact, if you look at the proportions of who who are of russians who are who are saying now is not the time for negotiations, that's gone up too. so what this is about is the long term de—legitimization of putin. and in some ways it's almost that actually reaches the

stage where for putin, sadly, the war becomes a desperate way of keeping him in power. once the war is over, he doesn't have that excuse. so he has a reason to actually want to see the war continue. >> yeah, it's like the war means that he remains relevant. but finally , professor, i mean, if finally, professor, i mean, if putin does go, it's because he's deposed from within. obviously, your book focused . on the wagner your book focused. on the wagner group, prigozhin, he managed to eliminate at least that enemy. is there somebody waiting in the wings that could pull the rug from under him ? from under him? >> there's no one person. there's no figure who could step into putin's shoes or whatever. if putin is deposed, and i think it's probably more likely, unfortunately, it's going to be mortality that does the job rather than anything else. it's going to mean an alliance, a coalition of figures. and that's going to be really hard. but what it does mean is what we've seen is each crisis putin goes into, he comes out of it that bit weaker. he came weaker out of the prigozhin mutiny . he's of the prigozhin mutiny. he's coming weaker out of the kursk incursion . after a certain incursion. after a certain point, people will begin to think that the risks in doing something are outweighed by the

risks in doing nothing and just hoping everything works out. that's really the kind of the long term threat he faces. >> and professor, do you have any view on what difference it makes if kamala harris or indeed donald trump becomes the next us president for ukraine and the situation in in russia and ukraine? >> well, look, we always have to be difficult. i mean, you realise it's difficult with donald trump because what he says is not necessarily what he ends up doing. the way things are being presented at the moment is that his policy will be to effectively impose a ceasefire on russia, russia and ukraine alike, that he will threaten ukraine with a suspension of military aid and he will threaten russia with an increase in the military aid. he provides ukraine, unless they're willing to do that . kamala willing to do that. kamala harris has said very little about her foreign policy. if we assume it's just going to be an extension of joe biden's, well, then it's kind of predictable, but it's not going to do anything to kind of break the stalemate. ultimately, i think the russians are reckoning that in some ways it's win win. if trump wins , then it's going to trump wins, then it's going to

be disruptive for the west. if harris wins, then trump's supporters are probably going to smell a rat and america will be disrupted. that, i think, is what they're counting on. >> all right, professor galeotti, we need to leave it there. but your book, downfall prigozhin, putin and the new fight for russia for the future of russia is out now. thank you very much indeed forjoining us today. well, up next, i'm going today. well, up next, i'm going to be joined by the leader of the house of commons, lucy powell. don't go

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news lucy powell joins me now. she's the leader of the house of commons and the mp for manchester central. lovely to see you this morning minister. thank you. now we apparently have a £22 billion black hole in our finances. britain's so broken that sir keir starmer warned last week that things . can only get worse. that things. can only get worse. and yet the government's

priority right now is banning smoking and vaping outdoors. >> well, it's not our only priority right now at all. >> we've got a packed agenda of things we want to change, things that the country wants to change, things that were voted for at the election, which involve raising people's living . involve raising people's living. standards, getting that much needed growth back in the economy , not growth just for its economy, not growth just for its sake, but growth that can support the living standards of ordinary people right across the country. getting those nhs waiting lists down, tackling crime, illegal migration, making sure that . opportunity for our sure that. opportunity for our young people and getting energy bills lower in the longer term as well. and these are all our priorities. >> i know, but how does this possibly promote growth when it only threatens to close down pubs? >> well, i would not accept that premise. look, what we've got here is a consensus, really, that's built over recent times

that's built over recent times that we want to aspire to get to a position where we've got a smoke free nation, and that's why the previous conservative government brought forward a to bill progressively increase the age by which people could buy cigarettes, a bill that we are taking forward that will also tackle the scourge of vapes for young people that are now turning to vapes. and there's a lot of unknowns there about the health impacts, because smoking is a real killer. it kills 80,000 people a year, but vaping gets people off cigarettes, doesn't it? sorry. >> vaping . gets people off >> vaping. gets people off cigarettes, doesn't it? if you're an adult vaping in a pub garden, you're trying to ban vaping outside as well as smoking, so you're not seeing its value as a cessation device. >> it can get people off cigarettes. but what we're seeing is a real explosion of young people taking up vaping. they're not taking up smoking, they're taking up vaping. and that has, you know . wide

that has, you know. wide implications, possibly for their health and other things. so we're taking forward the previous government's bill, and we want that broad consensus, that intention about how we reduce smoking over time, something that we can all work together. and what i would reassure you and hospitality businesses about is that any such measures, should they come forward, we will work closely with business, with licensing authorities and others . about authorities and others. about the timescale of their implementation and how they would . be operationalised and we would. be operationalised and we will do that in partnership and in consultation. this won't be a case of just imposing things on, on businesses that are damaging. and the other thing i would say .

and the other thing i would say. is that actually many of these same arguments were made about ending smoking inside pubs and restaurants. and actually what we saw after that was an increase in people going to pubs and restaurants because many non—smokers do find being close by to people smoking something that they don't like . and that they don't like. and i know, i mean, it's really it's . know, i mean, it's really it's. not very nice, it's a bit bit different when you're outside, but let's move on, because you could also make the argument that obesity is a bigger problem for the nhs. >> why not ban mars bars ? but >> why not ban mars bars? but let's move on to pensioners. why has the labour party decided to prioritise giving money to pubuc prioritise giving money to public sector workers? when we have a report by the taxpayers

alliance this morning suggesting that public sector workers have actually received inflation busting pay rises since 2010, if you take into account their very generous pensions, why have you decided to prioritise them over actual pensioners? is it because trade unions give so much money to the labour party? >> not at all. what we have inherited, as you say, is a very challenging economic situation. much worse than we thought, much worse than the office for budget responsibility. thought you huge overspending in areas like the asylum bill, which has been overspent by nearly £7 billion, and other areas of overspend as well. lots of commitments made by the previous government for which there was no money available to actually commit, and sector pay awards and public sector pay awards that recommended that were being recommended by independent sitting independent pay bodies sitting on ministers the on the desks of ministers in the previous the previous government before the election. they were election. knowing that they were going those, going to have to honour those, but where the but without knowing where the money and money was coming from, and setting and having setting nothing aside and having spent government's spent all of the government's reserves. honouring reserves. so we are honouring those those pay awards those spending those pay awards that have been independently recognised. we've had to recognised. but we've had to find in—year savings for this year , which is why we've had to year, which is why we've had to take the very difficult decision to means test the winter fuel payment. yeah. >> okay. we're assuming taxes are going to go up despite repeated assurances by rachel reeves and others throughout the

entire election campaign that all of your plans were fully costed and that there would no be no need to put taxes up. so are we ruling out tax cuts, tax rises? what are we saying today , rises? what are we saying today, minister, about tax? >> well, we have said we have been very clear that we won't be raising income tax, national insurance and vat. that's a commitment. which ones will you be raising before the ones we've given before the election and through the election and all our policies and all our plans that we've put in our manifesto that we've put in our manifesto that we got elected on with a huge mandate to deliver all of those policies are which taxes will go up, then costed, fully costed. but what we've what we've found is that there is no reserves left in effect. there's no money left in effect. there's no money left there is higher which taxes will go up current financial year than we thought. so we've got to make the sums that up. because if we don't make taxes are going to go up. i think this is a really important point to make. i'm not going to speculate about what's in or not in the

budget. i don't know. anyway what we on your programme speculating. >> you need to give us an idea. it's our it's our hard earned cash. >> but what i will say is the biggest impact on people's living standards, on their disposable incomes, on their real incomes, is when the economy crashes, is when there's a run on the pound, when interest rates go up because the sums don't add up and the markets lose confidence. and that's the situation that we are facing when we first got elected. so that's why economic stability and making the sums add up is so important to every single person watching your shows. living standards. and that's why that's got to be our first priority. so unfortunately, we've been left with a dire situation that we've got to sort out. but over time, our commitment is to improve everybody's living standards . everybody's living standards. >> okay. well, what do you think the prime minister finds unsettling about a portrait of margaret thatcher? >> well, i don't know anything about that situation, but look, there are portraits of every

prime minister in downing street, and they will always remain so. and it's up to it's up to people who who live and work there to decide what artwork is, is where, in which rooms . rooms. >> well, that's that's the words that his spokesman has used to describe his feelings about margaret thatcher. do you find margaret thatcher. do you find margaret thatcher. do you find margaret thatcher unsettling? perhaps it's the idea of. i'm not sure that a female prime minister is it the idea of a female leader that the leader of the labour party finds unsettling? i wonder minister ? unsettling? i wonder minister? >> not at all. and i think i do remember , keir starmer making remember, keir starmer making some quite complimentary comments about margaret thatcher in a previous speech, which which didn't actually go down all that well with some other people who remember her legacy very badly, so, look, she was a she was a successful prime minister in the sense that she got re—elected many times . but, got re—elected many times. but, you know, i would argue and i'm

sure many would argue, that she did a great deal of damage to this country in some of the policies that she put forward. but her portrait and her legacy lives . on in downing street and lives. on in downing street and lives. on in downing street and lives on throughout our country. >> all right. lucy powell, thank you so much for your time. the weather's up next, and after that we've got michael portillo from ella whelan. have a great day. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello. good morning. here's your latest weather update from the met office for gb news through the day. today we'll see a mixture of fairly warm sunshine, particularly towards the south—east of the uk. some thunderstorms also developing and quite a humid feel to the weather again, particularly towards the south and southeast. so looking at the detail for today, then confirmation of some showers already breaking out this morning across some central and southern parts of england. as we go through the day , as we go through the day, they'll become more extensive across parts of the midlands, eventually building across parts

of northern england to into the afternoon. so it's the north and northwest of the uk and across some western spots, seeing the best of the lingering brightness into the afternoon. a few lighter showers here, but with those thundery downpours we could see some flooding issues as they particularly across the central spine of the uk. temperatures peaking in the southeast at 27 celsius and a very humid feel to the day here. so to end the day across the north and northwest of the uk, we'll hold on to some sunshine towards the north—west of scotland. a few showers starting to push up from the south into central, southern and eastern parts of scotland. there 1 or 2 showers also across northern ireland, although the bulk of the end of the afternoon here set fair heading further south more in the way of cloud generally across england and wales. again, there'll still be some heavy , even thundery some heavy, even thundery showers in places, particularly across the midlands, up into northern parts of england, with perhaps the far south and southeast starting to see those showers easing. heading through the evening, then into the overnight period. those showers continue their journey northwards into parts of eastern scotland, into the early hours of monday. meanwhile, a band of more general rain working in across some western and southwestern parts, with a clearer sky there in the central

spine of the uk. a very muggy night to come across the uk on sunday night. temperatures no lower than the low to mid teens, even upper teens across the south and southeast of the uk. monday looks a very unsettled day. unfortunately across the whole of the uk. low pressure in charge giving the showers or longer spells of rain. still some thunderstorms in places towards the far north—east for a time, and fresher air moving in across northern ireland later. temperatures here up to 18 celsius nearer 22 or 23 celsius down towards the south—east. in the afternoon 23 there in london is 73 in fahrenheit, and it'll stay close to the seasonal average. that's pretty much it for me. see you soon. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. hail september, which used to be, as the name implies, the

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barrage of criticism from soldiers, lawmakers and