lots to discuss tonight. why.7 because, lots to discuss tonight. why? because, of course, it's parliament's first day back. and what a busy first day it has been. we've seen david lammy , he been. we've seen david lammy, he has been speaking out, announcing a partial suspension of arms exports to israel. so what do you think to that? do you support that move or not? do you support that move or not? do you perhaps think it doesn't go far enough? also, we've just literally seen home secretary yvette cooper on her feet. she has been talking tough about these rioters. they're racists. they're thugs. they're all far right . rhiannon jones, you know right. rhiannon jones, you know the drill by now. what do you think to that? also dynamic ticket pricing. should that be allowed to continue? is it all a scam? are we all getting ripped off or is it all fair capitalism. lots more as well to discuss tonight . but first, discuss tonight. but first, let's get the 6:00 news headunes.

headlines. >> good evening . at 6:00. i've >> good evening. at 6:00. i've got your headlines. the home secretary has been speaking in the house of commons this evening. yvette cooper was updating parliament on the government's response to riots, which erupted across the uk following the killing of three children in southport. the home secretary referred to rioters as racist . racist. >> in bolton, clashes between rival groups involved fireworks and bottles thrown and we saw people targeted on the streets because of the colour of their skin . this disgraceful or skin. this disgraceful or disorder and racist hatred, including that whipped up by a hateful minority online, was an inqu hateful minority online, was an insult to those grieving over southport. >> meanwhile, foreign secretary david lammy said 30 out of 350 arms export licences will end due to clear risk. they could be

used as a serious violation to humanitarian laws. used as a serious violation to humanitarian laws . israel humanitarian laws. israel continues to face international condemnation for the growing death toll in its war against hamas in gaza. >> but to license arms exports to israel , we >> but to license arms exports to israel, we must >> but to license arms exports to israel , we must assess their to israel, we must assess their compliance with international humanitarian law. notwithstanding the abhorrence of their opponents tactics and ideology. third, this is not a blanket ban. this is not an arms embargo. it targets around 30, approximately a 350 licences to israel in total for items which could be used in the current conflict in gaza and turning to the tory leadership campaign now and contender james cleverly has launched his bid this afternoon, vowing to bring back the rwanda plan. >> as he also said, conservative answers are needed to solve the

most challenging problems facing the country. cleverly highlighted the need for britain to remake the argument for capitalism to boost economic growth and give younger people a stake in society . he also said stake in society. he also said he'd increase defence spending to 3% of gdp and on illegal migration, mr cleverly says that britain needs to have deterrent. >> i will use my contacts and my reputation with rwanda to resurrect that incredibly important partnership . and more important partnership. and more than that , i will rebuild than that, i will rebuild a relationship so badly damaged by labour's arrogant and callous disregard to the diplomatic niceties that bind the to world inform the media that they were scrapping this partnership before they had the courage to inform the rwandan government is

unacceptable . unacceptable. >> meanwhile, kemi badenoch launched her tory leadership campaign today, calling for change in the conservative party. the shadow communities secretary and contender to replace rishi sunak says her party needs to focus on renewal to be ready to return to power. mr badenoch used the speech to also accuse labour of pulling the wool over the eyes of the public, insisting that it's time for something new. >> we can't just sit around pointing out how terrible labour are. that's just not good enough and we can't just keep having the same policy arguments from the same policy arguments from the last parliament. we are not in power. we lost. labour will fail and when that time comes and the british people are looking for change, we have to be that change. we have to focus on renewal, the renewal of our party, our politics and our thinking . and it starts with thinking. and it starts with principles . principles are the

principles. principles are the fundamentals that give us direction , unity and certainty. direction, unity and certainty. they must underpin everything we do . do. >> a third arrest has been made in connection with the fatal stabbing of a 13 year old boy in oldbury. the boy, who has not been named, died inside his home on leverton avenue on thursday afternoon, sparking a murder investigation , west midlands investigation, west midlands police said. two teenagers arrested earlier this week are still being questioned by police. next, the wife of a conservative councillor has pleaded guilty to publishing written material to stir up racial hatred. 41 year old childminder lucy connelly called for mass deportations and a tax on hotels housing asylum seekers. in a post on x on the same day that three girls were killed in southport. the post, which has now been deleted from her x account. she later

apologised for acting on false and malicious information. lucy is the wife of conservative councillor raymond connolly . the councillor raymond connolly. the government has promised to look into dynamic ticket pricing after the cost of tickets for the oasis reunion tour. more than doubled. culture secretary lisa nandy described the selling of inflated tickets as depressing. on saturday, fans of the world famous band sat in virtual queues for hours, hoping to get their hands on a pair of tickets for the next show. now, however, when they finally got through, many were met by prices far higher than the original expectation. some expressed their anger on social media as tickets worth £148 were now being sold for 355 on ticketmaster within hours of release. and at 6:00. those are your latest gb news headlines. i'm will hollis with more in one hour for the very latest gb news

direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me. i've got my panel, alex dean, the conservative commentator and doctor lee jones, the professor of political economy and international relations. good evening, gents, to both. good evening, gents, to both. good evening to you. you're very welcome tonight, as are each and every one of you at home. what is on your mind tonight? it has been a busy first day back, hasn't it , for uk parliament. hasn't it, for uk parliament. did you just see david lammy? he was talking out about a partial suspension. when it comes to arms exports to israel. we'll look at that also as well. the home secretary, yvette cooper , home secretary, yvette cooper, she's literally just sat down. she was giving her response to the so—called riots in the uk, racist thuggery , far right, so

racist thuggery, far right, so on and so forth. what do you make to all of that? i also want to look at what's been happening in germany. have you seen that lots of people are very worried there about the rise of afd, and if i've got time, i might even squeeze something in about pricing. you've just heard it in the headlines as well. do you worry about price inflation when it comes to tickets? it's not just for gigs, is it? it's for things like airlines, hotels, theme parks on occasion as well. get in touch all the usual ways. email gbviews@gbnews.com. or you can go to the website gbnews.com/yoursay. or you can tweet or text me. right. let's get stuck in then, shall we? because we have just been referencing yvette cooper. let's listen. remind ourselves as to what she had to say in bolton , what she had to say in bolton, clashes between rival groups involved fireworks and bottles thrown, and we saw people targeted on the streets because of the colour of their skin. >> this disgraceful or disorder and racist hatred, including that whipped up by a hateful

minority online, was an insult to those grieving over southport . to those grieving over southport. >> so what do you make to some of what she had to say , i'll let of what she had to say, i'll let you get in touch with me at home. but alex dean, your thoughts? >> well, first of all, she's right. they were riots and people were well, entitled to be upset about what happened in southport. but that of course, just goes no way to justifying what happened. setting to fire buildings and so forth. so that's at the extreme end of what was happening. completely unacceptable. a government has two twin duties to defend us from external threats and to keep order at home, and the first duty at home is to ensure the streets there's no civil disorder. and this was really bad civil disorder. and so the government was right to seek to stop it. but the shadow now home shadow home secretary james cleverly, i thought, had a very telling point because the now government collectively taking the knee during black lives matter, many of us would have thought at the time that was going to come back to haunt them. and so it has, because i thought it cleverly was quite right to say you treat different

crimes differently. there's blanket condemnation of criminality and the riots is spot on, but that's not how you behave in other circumstances. i also thought he was right to say the government basically had nothing to say about notting hill carnival double murder, because again, because it just doesn't fit their narrative of their worldview. if you're going to police, you have to police without fear or favour. and that's not what this government seems to be doing. >> should we just play a clip of james cleverly in case you guys missed it earlier on, and does she now also recognise that the labour leadership kneeling in the immediate aftermath of the black lives matter disorder, when violent protesters attacked police officers, looks like her party takes some forms of violence less seriously than other forms of violence. >> and does she accept that any perception whatsoever of treating the same crimes differently based on the race, religion or community of the

perpetrators increases tension rather than reduces it ? rather than reduces it? >> what? sally jones, what do you think to all of this? >> well, i think the difficulty here is that events are complex, right? this wasn't like the 2011 riots which started off with a grievance about policing but escalated into simple, wanton criminality very quickly. in this instance, as with the black lives matter protests, in fact , lives matter protests, in fact, there were protests and then there were protests and then there was a violent element. and i think, as alex is absolutely right to say that these were riots, they were looting. you know, shops were looted, rioting. did happen. hotels were attempted to be set on fire with asylum seekers inside. this is totally unacceptable. but i think there are also protests where people were simply trying to express their position, make their voices heard in a way that they don't feel is being heard in the political system. and i think yvette cooper could have done more to clearly distinguish

between these two groups. now, some people crossed over from the protests into the riots . you the protests into the riots. you know, this also happened with the black lives matter protests. you know, academic research has shown the us black lives matter protest 93 to 96% of those events were peaceful, involving no violence, no destruction of property. but then a small minority committed enormous violence. i mean, 25 people were killed. damage estimated at 1 to $2 billion. so the difficulty is that events like these are complex, and what's needed from politicians is a sense of nuance. >> right? i agree with you on the nuance. taking the events in their totality. but the point is their totality. but the point is the home. the new home secretary today made the point that if you attack the police, it's unequivocally wrong,. and that's right. but when the police were attacked during the black lives matter protest, the extreme, admittedly, but the but happened in that in that occasion, the leadership of the labour party took the knee completely wrong. but what? and my point is, it undermined them not just as a

serious opposition aspiring to government. it now undermines them in government. >> and also, i can hear you . i >> and also, i can hear you. i know some of my audience at home, you will be shouting out things like what about things like manchester airport? it's all well and good, isn't it? standing there saying it's completely wrong, which it is to assault any police officer or any emergency worker and so on and so forth. it is completely wrong. so why then weeks later, are we still in a situation? some of you will be shouting why where you've seen we've all seen the videos by now where it appears that there was quite a serious assault taking place there. and yet, unless i've missed it, we haven't actually seen any charges. so how do you think, yvette cooper can defend against those kind of suggestions? well, hang on a second. when it was blm, etc, you took the knee. what is the defence there? >> she won't. she'll bluster it out. and you know, the new government has a majority. it's undeniable. and they have that majority with people knowing full well that they took the knee to black lives matter. so she will just i mean, i don't

just mean to black lives matter. she took the knee whilst police officers were being assaulted in just the same way that she decnes just the same way that she decries rightly today. so she'll just ignore it and carry on. and that's the joy of being in government afresh, that you can point to your majority and the mandate that you have, and basically ignore the vastly diminished ranks of the opposition. it doesn't make you right, though, does it? >> no. and one of the things, lee, that many people will get frustrated about because nobody condones rioting, whether it's assaulting officers or properties, places of worship, so on and so forth. all of that is categorically wrong. and as for the looting, it's embarrassing. i mean, what kind of individual thinks to themselves i don't like, it might be there might be arguing against illegal immigration. so therefore i'm going to go into lush and steal some bath bombs . lush and steal some bath bombs. i mean, i don't even want to undermine it because it is criminal activity, but it's also embarrassing. i'd be absolutely mortified if i was pictured, or even if i was even contemplating behaving that way. who does that? but then the reaction from the government is, oh yeah, you know, you're all racist, you're all far right. one of

know, you're all racist, you're all far right . one of the worst all far right. one of the worst scenes that we saw during these riots were in hull. and what happened, and everyone's seen these videos as well. there was a car full of what people were saying were foreigners , and saying were foreigners, and therefore a lot of people were going out and attacking. it was awful. it was absolutely horrendous. we're attacking the people within those cars. well, it turns out that one of the people that's now been found guilty, charged and sent to prison is a moroccan refugee himself. this is a true story. everybody look it up when you're bored in hull. he's a moroccan refugee. so how is it, then, that all of these people are just getting called far right racists? as though it's like this one size fits all catch for anyone ? anyone? >>i anyone? >> i mean, i did watch the statement and i although she could have more carefully distinguished between protesters and rioters and i wish that she had done so because of course when they were taking the knee. i'm not a fan of taking the knee, but when they were taking the knee, they were not. they

were not bowing down to rioters. they were expressing their sympathy for the political cause. right. which is the mistreatment of black people in the united states and also in the united states and also in the united states and also in the united kingdom, in the same way that many of your viewers would want to express sympathy for the political cause, which is a sense that a policing is uneven and immigration is too high and so on. we should be able to distinguish these these two things when it comes to the riots themselves , i think you riots themselves, i think you would have to distinguish between different people's motivations for taking part. right. so some of them undoubtedly were associated with far right agitators who were whipping up the violence online. there's no doubt about that. other people were simply opportunistic thugs who wanted to engage in a bit of mindless violence, and some people just wanted to steal some stuff and wanted to steal some stuff and wanted to steal some stuff and wanted to use the cover of the disorder . and frankly, you can disorder. and frankly, you can be of any skin colour , creed, be of any skin colour, creed, ethnicity or religion you like , ethnicity or religion you like, and you can easily fit into any of the last two groups. yes, sir.

>> lee is spot on and i think it answers your point about the moroccan. i didn't know that story about the moroccan migrant, but when you're all bored, look it up in hull. >> but lee is right. >> but lee is right. >> and i saw it at the criminal bar, and it's been the stuff of the courts for many, many decades that some people just like a punch up, you know, and affray, you know, pub football match, whatever. somebody throws a punch. most, most of our reaction is that's terrible. some people think i'll have some of that. and the point is that people get drawn into violence and no matter what the cause, the cause is the cause is the mindless violence . and there is mindless violence. and there is no bigger picture behind it. there are some people that like that punch up. and the point is, you find it hard to understand because it's not rational, it's not how you feel. and that's completely reasonable. the point is, these people aren't reasonable and it's not restricted to race colour, creed, background, anything. >> you, are a barrister. and what do you think? therefore, to the sentencing approach to this, you have to sentence harshly with civil disorder. >> you have to sentence harshly in riot to deter people taking

to the streets and seeking to , to the streets and seeking to, tear apart the fabric of civil society, government and you're releasing people, other criminals. >> yeah, yeah , yeah. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> when you get into that sort of detail, i would have had a completely different approach. were we living in deanland, we would have said, well, you can sue me later for the breach of your human rights. you're going through to a cell until your sentences are finished. i wouldn't have been chucking prisoners out at all. i'd have emptied a couple of category c prisoners prisons, full, full prisons that were close to with prisoners that were, you know, low risk of re—offending. and i'd have filled them with rioters and doubled the security on them. but, you know, this is, you know, looking in the rear view mirror and just my own view that people have gone to prison for years. >> i absolutely do that. no, but not no for things that they've written on places like facebook. >> no , not for that. i thought >> no, not for that. i thought you meant for actual rioting. no, no, i don't mean for statements, no i don't. >> do you think it's right that people have been going to prison for years for things that they've written on facebook? >> i don't i draw a very clear distinction between speech and action. yeah. and i think it's really important that we do so.

so even incitement to violence is where most people would draw the line on free speech. i'm a total free speech absolutist, even that i'm not sure about. because if i incite you to attack alex, let's say, and you do it well, you have a choice about whether you do that or not, whether you listen to my command to you to do it or not. yes. when we when we jail somebody for incitement and say, i was responsible for you attacking him, you're saying that you're a sponge or a puppet that you're a sponge or a puppet that i that you're a sponge or a puppet thati can that you're a sponge or a puppet that i can control with my words, and i think that's doubtful. it removes your agency and your responsibility. >> i agree with that. there are differences, of course , with differences, of course, with being an accessory or under joint enterprise where instead of just saying, michelle, attack alex, if you'd said the knife is to your right underneath the counter, i popped it there earlier , then you become a earlier, then you become a participant in the offence yourself. but mere words. i'm inclined to agree with you, but how do you legally actually prove the link? >> so for example, you've just been hearing in the news headunes been hearing in the news headlines there you've got the wife of the tory councillor. she wrote a post, a post, expressing a lot of different sentiments actually. but one of the ones

that's been picked out was the fact she was basically saying, you know, you could set fire to these hotels with these people in it for all she cares, and she didn't care. she says if that made her a racist, how how do you then prove that the person that's setting fire to that hotel, which i completely, completely is completely wrong. it is appalling behaviour. i mean, who would even think to do such a thing? but anyway, how do you then prove that the person that set fire to the hotel has done so? because some tory councillor from over there said to her followers that it was the wife of a tory councillor, >> yeah. >> yeah. >> sorry. good, good point. >> sorry. good, good point. >> you. well, not only can you not, but moreover, it was after the fact, not before it. i mean, i don't know what she wrote, but on your account that you just gave. she was talking about something that already happened. so she can hardly have been inciting people to do it. >> so she was. this was off the, this was off the back of the stabbings of the children. she then taken to her social media and she was saying stuff like, oh, and then they went to set fire to the hotel. >> yeah. well, i mean, you would

have to i think, demonstrate there was some kind of causality between her posting that and people reading it. you could look at other people's ip addresses and see what they'd they'd looked at. but it seems to me a pretty long bow to draw. >> what do you make of it all? you'll have strong opinions about this. i am absolutely sure. i also want to talk about david lammy and what he's suggesting today. when comes to arms to israel. also, the

hello everyone. i'm michelle dewberry with little seven, alex dean and doctor lee jones remain alongside me. kathy, one of my viewers. you've just asked a very good question in the break. we're talking about yvette coopen we're talking about yvette cooper, speech that she's just done to parliament about all the rioters and so on, and you've just asked what happened to that labour councillor who basically suggested that if you have a political disagreement, your throats should potentially be cut. that is a very good

question. i shall try and find out the answer to that one. many people also as well, asking that question about how do if someone has posted something on facebook, how do you then prove that in this for case, example, the people that had set fire to that hotel were acting, because of a social media post, because lots of other things have been happening. don't forget, you've seen, people in ireland . they seen, people in ireland. they were burning down factories that had been earmarked as potential housing units for asylum seekers . housing units for asylum seekers. so to actually prove that that person, you know, i've done this because you you tweeted that, well, exceptionally difficult. >> although of course, the person who has been convicted or pleaded guilty to doing the violence might say, i did it because i read this post from that person, which would be not necessarily, conclusive, but it might be considered strong evidence against the person who posted it, >> and, well, if you speak about that, i've very clearly seen a video. many of you lot will have seen it as well, about when you

saw a group of muslims taking to the streets, and they were often beating up people because they were white skinned. when someone was asked, what are you doing here? there was a very clear response, which was, we're here because muslim women are being acid attacked. well, some of you will remember that many people were suggesting that white people were acid attacking muslim women. the police had to come out and say that that wasn't true. so where's the focus on those kind of rumours? i would wonder ? anyway, look, i would wonder? anyway, look, also in parliament today, david lammy , he took to his feet. in lammy, he took to his feet. in fact, actually, i'll come back to david lammy because many people have actually been expressing concerns. similarly, i would suspect to some of the concerns that people are raising in this country, in germany . in this country, in germany. yeah, so of course we've seen some elections over the weekend and the afd, the alternative for germany now it's quite interesting what's happened there. it's come first place in one of the states, second place in another . yeah, and many in another. yeah, and many people are saying this is the far right party. this is really concerning because it's the first time such party has had a win since the world war two.

where are you on this, alex? well, first of all, it's so different countries with different countries with different political systems will produce different outcomes. >> so in their system where coalition governments , unless coalition governments, unless you have an overwhelming vote, is the norm , on the one hand, is the norm, on the one hand, the other parties have sworn off working with the afd in coalition, so it will not actually make any practical difference in either of the regions concerned in government. on the other hand, that fact will just increase the frustrations and resentments of the voters who've supported them in the first place. yeah. of coui'se. >> course. >> what do you think to it? >> what do you think to it? >> i think two there's two points here. so the first is the afd is part of a wider suite of populist parties, which are flourishing because of the decline of representative democracy across europe, including in the uk. so people increasingly don't feel that their views, their interests, are being represented by political elites and political elites have basically abandoned their traditional social constituents. and that leaves a void between people and their so—called representatives, in

which populists flourish because they can say, look, you're being completely ignored. the elite are corrupt. they're just in it for themselves, etc. and that's as much of a problem here as it is on the continent. but our electoral system, with the first past the post system is propping up the established parties and making it harder for these populist challengers to break through. i think that's, you know, reform uk got more votes than liberal democrats, but vastly fewer seats. so that's the first point. the second point is when it comes to the afd, the afd is not simply, i think, just a right wing populist party in the way that reform uk is. the afd is definitely fringe , quite right definitely fringe, quite right wing extremist and in the context of germany in particular, given its nazi past, that's what's giving a lot of cause for concern. so i'll give you just a couple of recent examples. so there, there lead european parliament candidate, a guy called maximilian krah comes out with very provocative things, saying like nazi ss members are not necessarily criminals. other co party

leaders say things like we shouldn't have a holocaust memorial in berlin because it's a monument of shame and we need 180 degree turnaround in the way we treat our history. 180 degree turnaround in the way we treat our history . afd we treat our history. afd politicians participated in a clandestine meeting of far right extremists earlier this year , extremists earlier this year, calling for the expulsion of immigrants and a non assimilated citizens. so this is why the afd were kicked out of the right wing grouping in the european parliament, called the identity and democracy group, which contains groups like the nn marine le pen's party in in france, for example. so they are a bit beyond the pale, even for right wing populists on the continent. >> so i agree with your point about the fading mainstream support both in this country and elsewhere. you know, polling would suggest the conservative and labour combined support in this country is, you know, circa 55, 56%, which is very, very low in historic terms. but it is worth mentioning the afd didn't win in saxony. they came second

to a mainstream party. and the second point worth mentioning to lee's point about the centre being hollowed out by like hare. >> sure, sure. >> sure, sure. >> but the party coming third in both provinces in both, in both regions, is a brand new far left party that didn't even exist last year. >> and the point is that you've got this what people are calling a far right party and a and a far left party and one of the things they have in common, apart from being on the fringes of politics, is they're both very pro—russian, right. so, people, it's worth people having a moment of caution before trying to compare this directly to uk politics, because germany, by dint of its geography, has a very different relationship with other countries around europe to us and the people who think those who are unhappy with the direction of travel in the uk, this is exactly like what's happening in germany. it's not quite the same, not quite. >> okay, let me just come back on the pro—russian point. right. because the reason why these parties are branded as pro—russian is that they're opposed to german involvement in

the war in ukraine, and they would like to see a peaceful settlement of the war. now, apparently that makes you pro—russian. so the parallel to the uk is reform uk's leader, nigel farage made comments about the origins of the ukraine war, which i think were broadly just in line with kind of mainstream academic opinion, in fact, about why the war has happened, which is to relate it to nato expansion. and he was branded immediately an apologist for putin and so on. so anybody that's got a slightly different view to the mainstream on the war in ukraine, i know ukraine is instantly branded an apologist for putin. >> ukraine is a bugbear of yours, and i understand that and yours, and i understand that and you speak well about it. but the point is really rather different when it comes to the old east germany, which has a whole host of resentments towards the west in post—unification resentment of how they're treated under the newish government in germany, a sense that they are left aside or left out . there's a whole or left out. there's a whole narrative in germany of pro—europeanism and pro—eu, which the afd and this new left wing labour party speak against and look in many ways towards

the east and the poles and hungarians, who resent much of what's happening in the eu, especially now that the von der leyen commission is talking about having conditionality on grants. that is to say, not just handouts, but you have to basically do what we say in financial and economic terms to get the money. and those people look east in many, for many reasons, completely separately to ukraine. so it's very easy to get out to say, oh, it's because of ukraine. they're considered pro—russian. >> so, so the, the, the afd is very popular in eastern germany. so the part that used to be under soviet rule, and there is a reason for that, which is that this area of the country suffered immense social and economic dislocation when reunification happened and lots of industries were shuttered , of industries were shuttered, lots of structural unemployment and lots of poverty. now that has also happened in many parts of the uk, and it's in those areas where you have the most left behind, left out populations that are being hoovered up by populist parties. so there is that parallel. as for looking east, obviously the government in poland is no fan of russia, so it's not the case

that just just because you happen to be situated in eastern europe, you have a you have a positive view of russia. far from it. some of the countries in eastern europe are rabidly anti—russian, like the poles, like the bolts. for example. hungary has a completely different perspective. so hungary is actually trying to play hungary is actually trying to play a mediating role to help bnng play a mediating role to help bring about an end to the war. >> but isn't there some common themes here, whether it's bw or afd or whatever ? marine le pen, afd or whatever? marine le pen, there's a whole collection of people in society that want controlled immigration. they are they are passionately against, uncontrolled immigration for security reasons, for fairness reasons, for financial reasons. so you've got that then people are against this constant involvement in foreign wars, especially when they're being told domestically that you've got to tighten their belts, they're against things like net zero zealotry where they're saying again that they're going to have to change their lives to do all this, where places like china just do whatever they want and so on and so forth, so there's these themes. yeah. >> but michelle, you're cherry

picking. that's what you've just said is true. but it's only a partial picture. the point i was seeking to make in east germany, there's a good chunk of political activism around a faded romanticism of what life was like before the fall of the soviet union, and when the eastern bloc life was different. and it actually most it's quite powerfully felt amongst young people who never lived under the jackboot of the east. and you actually find many people who lived under the tyranny of real communism who say it was terrible. let's never go back there and there's this whole peculiar romanticism about the old east, which the younger generation have embraced. and that doesn't apply in, in british politics at all. so you know, it doesn't it's not quite as neat as you're suggesting. >> but what about this? this refusal from the political elite? it seems to be happening right across different countries now to actually accept the concerns that many people have. so we've just been talking about in germany for example, what they're going to do is they'll have what they'll call this firewall. nobody will go into coalition with afd, whereas afd will come out and it will say to their supporters, this is undemocratic because we are the

largest party in terms of seats or whatever it is in some of these states or one of these states, particularly . and it is states, particularly. and it is it is, the precedent that the largest party will then go out and create the coalitions will then instigate the conversations. but what you're going to see in germany is that that's not going to happen. so the afd will be saying, well, hang on a second yet again, your vote, your opinion is being completely ignored. in france, you had people trying to form all these different coalitions to restrict marine le pen in here in the uk, you've got people that vote for reform being classed as fascists and racists. and what's at the heart of it is a collection of people in society that yet again, are not getting their voices heard. >> well , that's exactly what i >> well, that's exactly what i meant when i was talking about the void . the void. >> so what's the answer to it then? >> so from the perspective of the mainstream political parties, i think what they're trying to do is contain the populist uprising institutionally as much as possible in the ways that you describe and then find ways to respond to the anger through

policy changes. but actually, what we're seeing from the mainstream parties is they don't seem to have any capacity for self—renewal. they don't seem to know to how rebuild the bonds of representation that used to anchor them in society and build popular support, and they don't seem to have any ideas for taking society forward in a new direction . that's exactly what direction. that's exactly what we're seeing in this country with the labour government that seems to have no vision for tackling the deep seated problems that are driving a lot of dissatisfaction in this country, which does manifest in various ways for example, anti—immigration sentiment. >> matt says michelle, you're over complicating it all. the fact of the matter is that people have now just moved on from the lies and failures of the mainstream parties. give it all the labels that you want, but it is really quite as simple as that. do you think it is? you can get in touch and tell me, david lammy, he has been speaking out today. it's provoked quite a reaction. he's saying that he's going to now do a partial suspension of some export licenses to israel. what do you think to

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven with alex dean and doctor lee jones. i do want to just revisit a point. i was asking there just before that break, because we're talking about germany. but to me, it's not just about germany. it's about a sentiment when the voters are voting in a particular way in an election. so in this case, afd, it got the most seats in at least one of the states close second in the second state. there is this concerted effort now to manipulate the democratic outcome, to stop those views that the elite don't like in any political system. >> if you are the largest single party, but nobody has a majority, you don't get to form government automatically. if you don't have a majority, you get to have the first go at forming a majority. that's precisely what happened in this country when we had a hung parliament and the conservatives had a first go at forming government, which it successfully did with the liberal democrats. but if that hadn't, if that coalition

hadnt that hadn't, if that coalition hadn't come off, then labour would have been next up to have a go. and indeed, in this country, such as the role of the executive, that you don't have to, the crown doesn't necessarily have to invite the largest single party. by convention it does, but it can actually ask the party that didn't get the most votes to try and form a government in the same way the afd is entitled to try to form government where it's got the most votes . it's got the most votes. >> but if it can't do that, which it won't be able to because they've they've kind of come together and decided collectively we don't like what those people stand for. >> they didn't win a majority of all the seats. yes. >> but what do you think that then does to the voters? >> well, perhaps if people are outraged enough by that, then at the next election, enough of them will vote for a single party that it can form an overall majority on its own. but how else can you reflect the democratic will if they can't form a majority by getting any coalition partners, then turning to the next party and said, okay, you have a go, then that's what happens here too. >> yeah, my issue is that there's this kind of sense that right, you've got this scale, these views are okay. these ones are okay. these ones are okay.

but actually, you know what? if you think like this. yeah, we're not having any of it. and then the problem that you've got is people become so disenfranchised, so disconnected with politics. and then that leads to a whole host of other issues. >> you think that as well. if there were a political party in this country that said, we hate all black people, and then they got 100 seats in the house of commons and there was a hung parliament, i dare say you wouldn't be in favour of that party being included in government, even if the party you supported might need their support in order to form it. >> well, of course not. because if any party, if any party stands up and says we hear all black people, the point is you are racist. >> you agree that views are beyond the pale as well. you just differ on what those views are. >> so do you. i mean, i can't i find this unfathomable because the views that have been fathomable the way the views, but the views that have been expressed at some of these ballot boxes mean that you're not outraged by those views, and therefore you think the treatment of them is different to those of the people who are outraged by those views? >> no, because what people are voting for, in essence, at the core of most of these is they

want their borders controlled. this is at the heart of all of it. >> and i think i did try to explain with afd that they're not it's not simply that they're saying we need stricter border control, right. they're co—leader says, you know, i walk around german cities. i find it hard to see a german. what he means is there's lots of people with brown skin. yes. so these these are people who are trying to sort of softly rehabilitate the nazi past, make, make, you know, soft, racist statements is dog whistle politics. this is this is this is this is a party thatis this is this is this is a party that is legitimately considered beyond the pale. >> and that's a historian would tell you. that's exactly what hitler said in mein kampf about walking around cities in germany and austria and not seeing people who were seen, people who were jewish. and he was fooled at first that they thought they were german. >> and with afd, it is deliberate. they know what they're doing. they're just skirting the law. just enough to say, you know, we all know wink wink, nudge nudge now. >> but this isn't just about afd, is it? in germany. >> so this is this is where i think i agree with both of you. right. so alex is right about the procedure. so the legal procedure is clear, you know, in thuringia, afd got only a third

of the votes. the vast majority of the votes. the vast majority of people didn't vote for them. their representatives are, if they so wish , are perfectly they so wish, are perfectly entitled to say we will not form a coalition with you. therefore, you cannot form a government. we will form a rival coalition government, which does then express the view of the majority of the people procedurally. that's legitimate . politically, that's legitimate. politically, itend that's legitimate. politically, i tend to agree with you. the more and more that the establishment responds to populist voters and ballot box insurrections by saying, we're not going to engage with these people and branding even just, you know, national populist parties not far right parties, but just national populist parties saying you're completely beyond the pale. we've got to delegitimize you and bash your voters and smear and insult you and so on. the more the establishment does that, you are right. that fuels this sense that nothing you do peacefully through voting is going to make any difference. and that leads you to a very dangerous situation in society. >> but you see, that's the situation that we're in, in society. i fear. and i feel that that's what many people feel

like now that we are repeatedly, this is what they'll say. we are repeatedly telling our governments to do things like control the borders. people will say we're repeatedly telling the government, you know, you say a primary responsibility of a government is to keep its citizens safe. i completely agree. and if you're in, for example, germany, where you've just seen people innocently attending a concert, i think a diversity one, i think it was, and then they're getting stabbed. who is keeping those people safe? that fella who conducted that attack shouldn't even be there. and this will be the concern that many people have. what do you think to it all coming up after the break, david lammy also speaking out about restricting certain arms exports to israel. do you support that

not? hi there. michelle dewberry with you till seven. alex dean and doctor lee jones alongside me . doctor lee jones alongside me. david lammy speaking out in

parliament today. when it comes to israel, listen . to israel, listen. >> but to license arms exports to israel, we must assess their compliance with international humanitarian law, notwithstanding the abhorrence of their opponents tactics and ideology. third, this is not a blanket ban. this is not an arms embargo. it targets around 30, approximately a 350 licenses to israel in total for items which could be used in the current conflict in gaza . conflict in gaza. >> alex. he went on to say that he was doing this in sorrow, not in anger. what do you think to it? >> i think that's guff. he talked about supporting the prosecution of benjamin netanyahu before he even came to power. his position vis a vis our ally israel has been clear for some time, and it's highly hostile. it's why netanyahu refused to meet with him when he visited. and you have to have a tin ear quite as developed as

david lammy to make this announcement. on the same day that the evidence emerges of six murdered, kidnapped victims, israelis killed by hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation. israel is fighting our fight for us against this wicked organisation. we should be supporting them more, not less . less. >> dotzler i completely disagree. it might be worth, it might be worth remembering that margaret thatcher actually imposed oil and arms embargoes total embargoes on israel in 1982 over their invasion of lebanon. so, you know, conservative governments do have form on this themselves. the current situation in gaza is absolutely horrific. anybody can see that for themselves. none of thatis see that for themselves. none of that is to excuse what hamas has done or is doing. we can just simply see what israel is doing to the civilian population of gaza. to the civilian population of gaza . the international criminal gaza. the international criminal court has issued arrest warrants for both senior leaders of israel and hamas, and the icj has declared the south african suit for genocide against israel

to have a plausible basis, and has asked israel to avoid further severe and irreparable harm to palestinians. so that's what david lammy means when he says that there are potentially, international crimes being committed. and then lammy will have asked the foreign office and the ministry of defence to assess how uk supplied weapons are being used in israel and is there a risk that those weapons may be used in these potential international crimes? and the assessment has concluded that there is a clear risk that's a violation of our criteria on arms export controls. so he really had no choice to impose what actually quite limited restrictions . only 30 out of 350 restrictions. only 30 out of 350 licences, the public actually wants to go much further. we've spent most of this programme talking about the importance of democracy. the majority of the british public want a total cessation of arms supplies to israel. lammy hasn't actually gone very far. >> that's an opinion poll. i don't care what the opinion poll says.in don't care what the opinion poll says. in fact, as far as my as far as principle is concerned, i can be in a minority of one. it

doesn't change whether i'm right or not. in principle, you can't just say people disagree with you, therefore you're wrong. you have to address it on the merits and on the merits. michel, i must say that the point that lee seeks to make a virtue of it's only a few weapons, in my view, is a very is a very specific weakness in what this government is doing, because the weapons that are being singled out are those most likely to be used in the fight against hamas, the proscribed terrorist organisation that we do not allow in this country that is banned, and that organisation is to blame both for the incursion into israel, murdering of hundreds and hundreds of israelis and the kidnapping of people and treating them in the most cruel ways, and then keeping them in tunnels by the way, where many people in the west are alleging that there would be war crimes committed or crimes against humanity committed if israel tried to get them back, said israel shouldn't go. well, that's precisely where these terrorists kept their hostages and kept them until they murdered them. the idea that on the day that emerges, the latest proof of that emerges, you should announce this against israel is so unutterably crass. >> the war has been going now for practically ten months, tens

of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed . and civilians have been killed. and i think it's proof of what a lot of people thought right from the start, which is that it is impossible to eradicate hamas by military means because of the way that they have embedded themselves among the civilian population. >> well, that may be right, but i want israel to have a bloody good go now. >> we make no alex. it's been ten months. how many more dead palestinian babies are you willing to tolerate? forgive me. have a go. >> you are happy to spout statistics from the palestinian health ministry, which is the same thing as hamas. as if it's proof. well if that's the proof you're concerned, then you can be as emotionally rhetorical as you like about dead babies. israel is entitled to try and stop terrorism visited upon itself, as we would do too. >> i can tell you now, this conversation will certainly continue. i know, doctor lee would like to come back on that, i'm sure, but unfortunately, just for time reasons. look, the time does fly, doesn't it, but only for that reason. we will have to leave it there for tonight. i know i can see on the

inbox many of you have very strong opinions agreeing and disagreeing with each of the panel tonight. and as i said , panel tonight. and as i said, this is a conversation that will continue tonight , i'm absolutely continue tonight, i'm absolutely sure. but for now, doctor lee jones, thank you very much for your company. alex dean, thank your company. alex dean, thank you very much for yours too. and of course, thank you to each and every one of you at home. i very much appreciate you spending your last hour with me, but i will see you tomorrow night. night night . night night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. we've seen some big thunderstorms through the day today. still a few rumbling on at the moment but they are going to fade overnight tomorrow. a mix of sunshine and showers and it is steadily turning fresher from the west. quite warm and humid though in places at the moment our air is coming up from the south. this low pressure generating the heavy thundery showers steadily clearing from

north—east scotland and then the northern isles, but some storms rumbling on as well into this evening over parts of the midlands, northern england and wales. they should start to ease through the early hours. still quite warm and humid and murky over central and eastern parts, but turning fresher and cooler further north and west. temperatures in parts of scotland well down into single figures, generally a fine and a sunny start across scotland tomorrow as well. certainly a much brighter, drier day across the north—east. but in western scotland a line of cloud and rain is creeping back in. that's extending down into northern ireland, so a pretty glum start to proceedings tomorrow here. quite a lot of mist and low cloud still across parts of england and wales as well, and still a few showers here. still keeping going through the morning, so you may wake up to a bit of a wet start here. and as we go through the day we could see some further heavy showers developing over parts of east anglia and maybe the far south—east of england still hit and miss, but some heavy downpours possible, particularly in the early afternoon . much of

in the early afternoon. much of northern england, wales, south—west england, though drier and brighter compared to today and brighter compared to today and we'll still have some outbreaks of rain coming into the far north—west, turning cooler and fresher. we could still get into the 20s across east anglia in the south—east and certainly a cooler, fresher start across eastern areas for wednesday morning. again many places seeing plenty of sunny spells, but we will see more showers developing as we go through the day, particularly for wales and england. northern ireland not too many though , ireland not too many though, across scotland and temperatures much fresher feel by wednesday. high teens for most . high teens for most. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> a very good evening to you. i'm martin daubney and this is gbn. tonight on tonight's show, germany's controversial alternative for deutschland

party has won its first ever state election. but are we seeing the rise of the far right, or is this a political pushback onto uncontrolled migration? i'll be speaking to the co—founder of the afd party shortly. also this evening, the home secretary , yvette cooper, home secretary, yvette cooper, has slammed rioters and called them racist over the recent disorder across the nation. a huge row then erupted in the commons when shadow home secretary james cleverly blasted the government's handling of the riots that even brought up black lives matter. next up , the lives matter. next up, the former labour leader jeremy corbyn forms a parliamentary group with four other pro or independent mps to put pressure on sir keir starmer. are we seeing a new move towards sectarian . sectarian. politics? what was the show? thanks for your company. we've got a

fantastic show ahead of us. all that and