considered as an ally and pride in britain's history is collapsing, especially among young people? is this all because of a left wing educational establishment? i rather fear that it is. it looks like the government may well be forced into a vote on the cutting of the winter fuel allowance . what, why and how allowance. what, why and how were they trying to deny that in the first place? before all of that, and some furious debate, let's get the news with will hollis . hollis. >> thank you. nigel your news updates at 7:00. french prosecutors have opened an investigation into the deaths of 12 migrants in the channel. dozens more were on board when a boat capsized in northern france, with some 50 rescued by the coastguard it's believed that ten of the 12 are women with most of the migrants on board from eritrea . the border board from eritrea. the border and security minister angela

eagle , said that the gangs eagle, said that the gangs facilitating the crossings must be stopped. >> these dangerous boat crossings are being facilitated for financial reward by smuggling gangs who don't care about the safety of the people that they are cramming onto boats, often overcrowding onto boats, often overcrowding onto boats and causing these dangerous crossings. and it's that that we've got to stop happening in the future. >> the scottish government is to make half £1 billion worth of cuts, according to its finance secretary. shona robison told msps that scotland cannot ignore the severe financial challenges it faces, blaming the labour government for a new era of austerity. at least 41 people have died in a missile strike in ukraine, the deadliest so far this year . ukraine, the deadliest so far this year. more than 180 people were injured on tuesday when a military institute in the central town of poltava was hit

by two russian ballistic missiles , and there's been missiles, and there's been backlash over the decision by the government to suspend some arms sales to israel, including from former prime minister boris johnson, who's accused keir starmer of abandoning the ally. foreign secretary david lammy says the decision follows a review which found there was a clear risk that weapons might be used to commit a serious violation of international humanitarian law. mr lammy says that of the 30 of 350 licences, some 30 will be suspended and he's stressing it's not an arms embargo. tom tugendhat has launched his tory leadership campaign, the shadow security minister is setting out his vision for the future of the nafion vision for the future of the nation and the party. mr tugendhat is one of six tory mps hoping to replace rishi sunak. he says that he promises the party he can restore the party's

relationship with the public and return honesty to politics. five children have been arrested in leicestershire in connection with the murder of an 80 year old man. the man, named in reports as bhimsen kohli, was walking his dog when he was seriously assaulted by a group of young people on sunday. later, he died in hospital. a boy and a girl, both aged 14, and one more boy, plus two girls aged 12, have been arrested . and aged 12, have been arrested. and lastly, the inquest of steve dymond, a guest on the jeremy kyle show , has heard that the 63 kyle show, has heard that the 63 year old died of an overdose of morphine and a heart problem . he morphine and a heart problem. he is suspected to have taken his own life seven days after filming for the itv programme in may 2019, he'd taken a lie detector test for the show after being accused of cheating on his ex—fiancee. well, those are your latest gb news updates at 7:00. back to nigel for the very

latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gb news. >> .com. forward slash alerts . >> .com. forward slash alerts. >> .com. forward slash alerts. >> so the foreign secretary was in the house of commons yesterday afternoon announcing the suspension of 30 companies exporting arms or specific products to israel. it'sjust products to israel. it's just under 10% of the kit that we send. but it was a very interesting atmosphere in the house of commons, and i began to feel that israel had with a few exceptions, pretty much run out of friends. a lot of labour mps getting up and declaring, you know, i am a pro—palestinian. whether some of this is a result of the new voting trend that we saw in the general election, with the growth of sectarian voting, that i think is a contributory factor. the government trying to steer a

very delicate line on this, but it's a subject that raises great passions, and there's no doubt that since the 7th of october and the barbarity that took place on that day, that in terms of israel's response, yes, there are up to 40,000 people that have died . however, israel will have died. however, israel will tell us again and again and again . this is because hamas again. this is because hamas effectively use human shields. but i feel all over the world that israel is running out of friends, and i wonder right now, is israel still really an ally of this country? i'd love to get your thoughts . farage your thoughts. farage gbnews.com. well, we're going to go down the line immediately to ruth wasserman lande, israeli citizen spokesman, former member of the israeli parliament and former adviser to former president and prime minister shimon peres. do you president and prime minister shimon peres . do you understand, shimon peres. do you understand, ruth , that as people see the ruth, that as people see the mounting deaths in gaza , that

mounting deaths in gaza, that there has been increased scepticism about israeli military operations ? military operations? >> good evening and thank you for allowing me this platform in order to express my views, with your permission, i would like to perhaps liken what you have just said to your audience to likening the united states of america coming to save europe dunng america coming to save europe during the nazi regime and the nazi overtake of europe in second world war, to what is being done right now, imagine that the united states would have said, we are in effect, setting up an embargo on the uk and on european countries and not coming to your aid because it might cause humanitarian damage and problems and, and hurt civilians, you know, in germany, in other countries and so on. it is as absurd as that.

and, you know what? i even invite people to come and see because it seems to me that, there is an upside down world, you know, the citizens and civilians in my country were raped, massacred , murdered, and raped, massacred, murdered, and carnage and then the hamas, who makes it quite clear in arabic on every interview, you don't need to ask an israeli. rather listen to their interviews and hear the arabic. they say, we shall do it again. this is their policy, by the way, the issue is it's not only against israel or the jews. in fact, they say. they say it's not my, commentary. they say that they will do so in europe as well. in london, in the uk, in rome, they name those capitals. and that's why it's absolutely beyond my comprehension. how it is

possible for an ally to throw a democratic country like israel under the bus. it's ruth. >> i look, look, i completely understand some of those things you've just said and particularly around october the 7th, where it would appear there are some commentators in britain, indeed people that march on our streets that deny that it even happened. and i fully understand that . but i fully understand that. but i don't think we can quite compare the values of today with just oven the values of today with just over. you know, exactly 80 years ago with the bombing of german cities or indeed the deaths of many civilians, with the invasion of normandy and onwards , invasion of normandy and onwards, we are living in different times. and the argument goes that the sheer number of people that the sheer number of people that have been killed and wounded in gaza is just too high. and that, i think, is where that i think is where it's very important. some support for israel has been lost, but it's very important what you say. >> but the issue is, and this is the important point, >> but the issue is, and this is the important point , that the the important point, that the hamas not only does not care to

take care of their citizens, in other words, they don't have any kind of special safety rooms. they don't have any technology, even though they got millions and millions of dollars from international aid from the us, from the uk, they did not use that money to protect their citizens. on the contrary , while citizens. on the contrary, while israel and its government doesn't matter which government is doing everything it can to protect its citizens, the technology that is used here allows us to move into the safety room and at least have less deaths than, the hamas would want to see. they claim that they want to see us dead . that they want to see us dead. carnage raped. in fact, you know, if i may share with your audience, i live 3.5 minutes from tulkarem in proper israel, undisputed israel, the northern part of the sharon. the only thing that prevents the palestinians in the west bank,

3.5 minutes drive from me, from coming here. i have thank god for children and doing what has happened on october 7th to god forbid to my children is the fact that we have an army, a state and a security line. being protected by our people against what they say they want to do? i'm going to arms. >> i'm going to stop you there. you've made the argument very passionately indeed, and i thank you for doing that. thank you. now i'm joined by a panel who last week became, i think, your favourites ever, sir john redwood, former conservative member of parliament and of course former cabinet minister and lloyd russell—moyle, former labour mp, and these guys , they labour mp, and these guys, they have very different opinions on virtually everything in the world. but they managed to argue in a way that shows that we are a civilised society, namely, they can agree to disagree, but respect the right of the other person to have a different point of view. well, on this subject, lloyd, you know you've spoken

out quite strongly in the house of commons, suggesting that we should start funding unwra again. the un body, some of whose members were directly involved in the atrocities that took place, and that's been proven on october the 7th, i get, i get a feeling that you would fully support us not selling any arms to israel at all. >> well, i sat on the arms control committee throughout my whole time in parliament for seven years until the committee was was abolished, and i think actually, what's happened is a rather clever nuance . arms is rather clever nuance. arms is everything. arms is everything, including air traffic control, including air traffic control, including the dome, which your last person referred to, which is the dome that protects missiles coming in. items for the dome , repair items will the dome, repair items will still be provided under those licenses. what is specifically being targeted is a few 30 of the 300 that we can't be assured are using for self—defence and

are using for self—defence and are using for some of the more egregious activities that we've seen. and we know that some of the activities that israel are conducting are more egregious, are probably going beyond the pale of what pure self—defence is. the international courts say that our government has said that our government has said that even the us, the argument, have said that the argument goes that if they don't take out hamas, hamas will do it again, and therefore it is still effectively an act of self—defence. yes, but you can't take out people, and not consider the collateral damage, as it were . the second world war as it were. the second world war is used, as you know, thrown around as an example. well, yeah, exactly. but the reality is that after the second world war, the world came together and said, we need to make sure these kinds of wars don't happen again. and so we will enhance the rules of war, add additional rules, make things like apartheid, make things like targeting civilians more of a crime. and so just because it was done in the second world war doesn't justify that it should

be doing that. and i think what the values are different. i think what people are coming to say is israel, of course, has the right to exist. and of self—defence, despite far extremists being in their government that want to wipe out the palestinian people. that is the palestinian people. that is the founding charter of netanyahu's party to wipe out the palestinian lands and only have israel. and equally, you've got i don't think they've never said people no land lands. well, and equally, you've got hamas on the other side that say they want to wipe out israel. they are two extremists, in my view, is most people in britain probably are, you know, kind of plague on both houses. >> i think israel is surrounded actually by a number of states who want to see them obliterated. john redwood, we've obviously i mean, been a great friend and ally of israel. and indeed, even in the very foundation of the country itself, that support has been slipping away. you know, opinion polling look , wherever you want polling look, wherever you want to look, is israel still really a proper ally of this government? >> well, it doesn't look like

it. and i'm very worried by the government's actions. i mean, like everybody, i'm shocked and horrified by the original terrorist attacks, which were quite beyond the pale. and israel has a right to respond . israel has a right to respond. and then, like everybody else, wanting there to be a negotiated settlement and to minimise civilian casualties in the response, that's the normal british position. but what worries me about what this government has said, this week is they're hiding behind lawyers and they're saying that, oh, maybe there's a legal reason why a limited number of these goods shouldn't, in the future be supplied. these are goods we've been supplying under a conservative and then briefly under a labour government, without ever thinking they were wrong and not withdrawing them. i think the government needs to be more honest and straightforward if it actually thinks that israel's current conduct of the war is illegal, they should say so and specify how well they're hedging. if they aren't, they, and if they don't think that, then israel should be our ally and they shouldn't have a blacklist of

certain products that they don't want to talk about. but hundreds of thousands of people are on the street in israel. >> you know, you kind of you shut down, you shut down. the major airports because because people are saying, what is happening in this war the way you are conducting it is not actually working. it's causing more harm and death to palestinians, but also potentially more harm and death to those hostages. and we want a different strategy. so i also think we've got to recognise that the government, our government is probably also looking at what's happening in israel and saying we need to be making sure that we are not just seen to be wedded to the netanyahu strategy rather than actually putting pressure on a negotiation strategy. >> that, again, is a political judgement. and if that if that's what the government believes and thinks the opposition is better than the government in israel, again, i think they've got a moral duty to say that. and not shelter behind. yeah, i mean, legal mysteries. john is right. >> at one extent. they are not being very clear. they're hedging their bets a bit. but what i sensed, lloyd yesterday was a lot of very scared labour mps, a lot of labour mps from the big cities who've got their seats with much smaller

majorities than they thought they would, or wes streeting 500. well, that's right, because of a rising sectarian vote, a rising muslim population , a some rising muslim population, a some of whom support ideologies that are difficult for the rest of us. is much of this not about fear of what is happening to that vote amongst the ethnic minorities? >> no, i think that's too simple, because i think it's too simple, because i think it's too simple to just say it's the ethnic minority vote, you know, kind of in brighton moor, where i was the mp, a more middle class, not necessarily affluent, but, you know, kind of academic class of person . there was great class of person. there was great concerns and that did sway some of those votes as well. and so i think it is not as simple as a sectarian, but it is quite right that mbappe voting is here, isn't it? but. well, there's always been elements of sectarian voting. i was not like this. i was in bradford in the by—election for george galloway in the labour party. up there . in the labour party. up there. but i think it is quite right that mps respond to the popular

view of their people and if they don't want to respond to the popular view of the people , the popular view of the people, the people kick them out. if it's on this issue or if it was on brexit or another issue, and you know that as well. and sometimes we sometimes the elites don't like it, but it is just the case. you have to live with these. >> now, who think that gaza is far more important than other issues, one of which that i campaigned hard on in the general election is that we're poisoning the minds of our kids. we're teaching them to hate britain's history. well, i've been appalled by this, but we saw some polling out this morning suggesting that that hard left strategy is working in a moment. what's happened to pride in who we are as a nation

the british social attitudes

survey is in its 41st year. it asked a number of questions. one of the questions that it asks is are you proud or very proud of britain's history? and you know what? it's really extraordinary. in 2013, the answer to that was 86% said yes. they were proud or very proud of britain's history. that figure has now collapsed down into the mid 60s. but most interestingly , amongst the 18 to interestingly, amongst the 18 to 24 year olds, that number is down below 40%. something very big has shifted now. i would accept that there is a degree of generational change. you know, go back ten, 20 years and people would say, well, you know what? you know, my dad was in the war. my you know, my dad was in the war. my mum worked in a factory making lancasters and maybe some of that link has gone. and i think we have to accept that . think we have to accept that. however, you know, i have been railing about this. we have got an educational establishment that goes right the way through primary school, secondary school,

university that seems to somehow rejoice in talking down britain's past. you would have thought we were the only country in the history of mankind that had ever conducted slavery. far from being the one nation, actually, that ended it and lost actually, that ended it and lost a lot of money and a lot of lives driving it out, you would think the british empire was the worst empire that had existed in the history of mankind, and yet it's the only empire ever created that now has a club of former members called the commonwealth. and i think that is what is going on. i put it to you, lloyd russell—moyle that actually the sort of a marxist takeover of people who hate the country, hate what it stands for, and they've done their job well, first of all, we've not got it's not the only club. >> there's the organisation francophonie as well. and there are other clubs of those former colonial powers. but i do think that we have got something wrong, but i'm not sure it's

marxist teaching. i think it's nuanced. teaching is very difficult. people are being taught to find the right or wrong answer, and sometimes there is no right or wrong in there is no right or wrong in the world. there is just what happenedin the world. there is just what happened in the past, and we can't put moral judgements on these things. and i think what we are doing that well, i do agree that we have we have strayed into that, that situation. i also think that the timing of the last poll was very interesting. it was straight after the olympics, and i think the olympics in london 2012 really did bring together a feeling of britishness. and that opening ceremony to me summarised the very best of britain. it showed windrush, it showed slavery in the fight for votes for women, but it also showed our humour and our and our comedy and our, you know, kind of and our music and our, our cultural talents. and that is, i think, what we should be teaching that is britain is not just flag waving second world war. there is a plethora of history there, some good, some bad. but all that we should understand and kind of respect.

>> 2020 1,386% was a high point. although the previous decades were well in the 80s. the other thing, john redwood that is going on is there's a pretty big collapse in support and belief in our basic fundamental democratic system, our constitutional monarchy . i mean, constitutional monarchy. i mean, you know, i just feel i just feel that we ought to be teaching people that this little speck on the map actually achieved quite remarkable things. >> no, i agree with that. and i think it's very depressing how distorted history is. now, of course, there were some bad bits, but they seem to be the only things we concentrate on and constantly apologise for. and all the great things that our country can be rightly proud of get written out of the story or in some way damaged. and when did we last hear about the huge technological advances that are sometimes called the industrial revolution, which then enabled many other countries to get more people out of poverty and to create great cities and great

industries? when do we hear about that continuous golden thread of progress from tyranny and aristocracy governing everybody to popular votes, and to popular engagement and public opinion, playing a very important part in debate and policy formation? when do we hear about the contributions we've made globally by often intervening in wars on the sides of those that want self—determination, of smaller countries, that want greater freedom for peoples that to stand up big tyrannies? and above all, as you rightly say , above all, as you rightly say, something we should be enormously proud of is our parents and grandparents who took on the hitler genocide against the jews and all the nasty features of the nazi regime on our own. for a bit against the america came in against the america came in against completely against the odds >> i'm also worried, lloyd, you know, only 53% now across the board , let alone the younger board, let alone the younger generation where the figures are even worse, say they take pride in the way britain's democracy works. and what do you think we

can argue about governments and how good or bad they are. but you compare us to most countries around the world. the fact that the figures are as low as that. i find that very worrying . i find that very worrying. >> yes, i think that there is a all countries, all democratic countries need something to bond, need a national myth as it were. america has this kind of american dream as their national myth. britain. we have kind of developed a national myth of standing apart , standing strong, standing apart, standing strong, you know, kind of in the second world war, we even though we were alone, we stood apart, you know, kind of and that has kind of been a, a narrative, you know, part of europe, but on the edge of, you know, kind of all that narrative, british exceptionalism. yes. british exceptionalism. yes. british exceptionalism and the french have it the same, the resistance and, you know, kind of even though it's probably not historically true. the problem i think we have now in britain and in lots of western world, actually, because those figures have collapsed of democracy. you'll see in all of european countries, actually, is that those myths were based or those

stories not on the myths, but those stories and those narratives were based on things that happened almost 80 years ago now. and people need to find the new relevance for them now. i think there are elements of that history, but someone needs to weave that together and we need a national curriculum. government says this is the modern version of what we had in the past, but our governmental system, you know, the constitutional monarchy, the things that were established, you know, way back in, in the 17th century, have, for all their faults , given us relative their faults, given us relative stability. >> we ought to be proud of that. >> we ought to be proud of that. >> yes. but there has also been real upturns and downturns in pubuc real upturns and downturns in public opinion during victoria's latter part of her reign. it was the highest number of people who wanted to turn into a republic much higher than we have now, for example. so i think sometimes we catastrophize these pubuc sometimes we catastrophize these public opinions. they go up and down as the mood of the country goes up and down. but i think that as we start to move into a into a country where we are less worried about money troubles and austerity and covid that have all been difficult things in the

last few years and moved to a more hopeful period , then we can more hopeful period, then we can start to be more happy about ourselves. >> one little celebration every yearis >> one little celebration every year is the proms. it's always of course, got its own little bit of controversy, but the fact that the proms host katie derham has done it for 15 years is now telling us the lyrics to rule britannia are incredibly problematic. i mean, goodness gracious me, can't we have a bit of fun ? of fun? >> and actually it is problematic. >> well, you see the fact that it refers to empire, that's what she's really getting. but if you actually look at the lyrics of it, yes, it's all about it's all about doing down tyrants. it's about doing down tyrants. it's about liberty. it's about freedom. >> and but it is about victory as well. >> well, it's about us ruling the waves, which undoubtedly we did for centuries. yes. >> and every country needs patriotic songs. and we can have new ones as well. three lions on the shirt is a new patriotic song, and you're still rule britannia. i think you need patriotic songs, and they are parts of history that you should not be writing off. well, you don't rewrite them. they are

what they are, what they are. doesn't mean that you don't also create new and also celebrate those new songs. >> you have different thoughts about them from when they were originally written, but they you can't rewrite the past like that. and get away with it. >> you could knock me down with a feather, lefty lloyd likes rule britannia. on that note, we'll have to take break and come and talk about whether there should be a vote

talking to the 10 million talking to the 10 million pensioners are going to lose pensioners are going to lose £200 a year, in some cases £300 £200 a year, in some cases £300 a year. unless, of course , they a year. unless, of course , they a year. unless, of course, they can claim benefits for which a year. unless, of course, they can claim benefits for which they have to fill in a 243 they have to fill in a 243 question form. so 10 million are question form. so 10 million are going to lose out. and one of going to lose out. and one of the big arguments has been, the big arguments has been, should there be a vote on this should there be a vote on this in the house of commons or not? in the house of commons or not? well, john healey was sent out well, john healey was sent out this morning. the defence this morning. the defence secretary to defend the secretary to defend the government as being, i think, government as being, i think,

one of their more one of their more competent media performers. and here he was on with our friends at the bbc this morning decision to scrap the winter fuel payments for millions of pensioners. >> we understand there is still no plan to have a vote a proper

which has been through a proper process , and parliament does process, and parliament does those in one of two ways. they either have a debate, a short debate on the statutory instrument, modification of the law, and a simple vote. and it goes through because the government's got a majority , or government's got a majority, or sometimes they get away with laying a statutory instrument which automatically becomes law. and the only right that the opposition have is to do something called praying against it, which means you kick up a fuss and say, you can't do this and then at a later date, the government has to bring it for a debate and a vote. and if that's what they were trying, that is very sneaky. on something of this salience , where a lot of this salience, where a lot of labour mps want to express their views on it, let alone the opposition. >> well, put yourself, lloyd . >> well, put yourself, lloyd. put yourself. imagine that you were still there. you know, and you would have had a number of significant number of pensioners getting this . what would you be getting this. what would you be thinking right now? >> well, i think i would prefer would have preferred them to

have done it in a slightly different way. i think you could have, but they haven't. you could have taxed in a different way to include winter fuel payments in tax payments. but they haven't. they haven't. and so i think that therefore it is you are lumbered with it now whether it's a positive or a negative statutory instrument that we've just heard is laid out in the initial legislation. so it's not the government just choosing what shall we try and get away with today? it will say if you want to modify winter fuel payments brought in by gordon brown of course, winter fuel payments, requirements, you have to do it via either the positive or the negative. it will have said then in the law, it can be changed with the negative. that just means that the leader of the opposition, raisi, or whoever it will be, needs to lay down a that that note complaining about it and get most of their backbenchers and most of their frontbenchers to sign it. and then there will be a vote. that's how these things work. so i am confident there will be a vote and there are places and there should be a vote and there should be a vote,

and there are places. but it wasn't the government's choosing to not have the vote in that way. that will be what was in the law. and there is a statutory instruments committee that makes sure that they are following it. that is a cross—party committee that will say, you've done this, interpreted it in the correct way. so it's not just the government that decides, do you feel what it is, the government, that it's the right policy? >> is it the right policy? >> is it the right policy? >> is it the right policy? >> i think that is the right policy that we start to relook at how those winter fuel payments and the pension are made? i mean, to some extent we should just be upping the pension so that people don't need winter fuel payments. the idea that pensioners are in so much poverty that they can't afford fuel payments, that we have to give them a special handout every winter is wrong, but that's why we need to change the way that our pension works. >> the nightmare is you've got some very wealthy pensioners who don't need this but can still get it. but then if you go for means testing, that costs an absolute bloomin fortune. very difficult, isn't it? >> well, it is difficult. which is why the previous conservative government always stayed with this. and we were accused of wanting to get rid of it falsely

in elections and always kept it. and then this time round this government in waiting didn't say it wanted to do this . so again, it wanted to do this. so again, that was pretty sneaky. and then they announced that they they want to get rid of it. and i think they underestimate the real pressures on budgets for the people just above the benefit level. and there's many more of those. the rich people who don't really need this amount of money and to do it at amount of money and to do it at a time when you've just announced your wretched price controls , mean that the price of controls, mean that the price of energy has got to go up a lot in time for the winter is a double blow to pensioners. >> we're going to come to energy and wind auctions and all the rest of it. but i wonder, john, it's sort of classic, isn't it? it's easy to give benefits, but it's very tough to it's very tough to take them away. it's rather like giving the dog a boneisnt rather like giving the dog a bone isn't it? once you've given it, getting it back is always deeply unpopular. >> well, not always deeply unpopular. i think it depends how you do it. i think if they'd come with a more sensible proposal link to people's income, i mean, you could link it to the tax codes. for example, and say that if people are on the rate of tax on over 100,000 a year, then they

clearly don't need this, for example, which we do for child benefit, which you do for that. yes. you could have done that. yeah, you could, and that would have probably met with the approval of both sides of the house of commons. >> that would have been my preference. but i think that the feeling was that the accounts needed to be presented in such an atrocious way that they had to do something that was very dramatic. >> well, that's the nonsense of this government. and look, it's really bombed their popularity ratings. this was the most unpopular government with the majority we've ever seen. anyway. it was a landslide on an unloved basis with only one fifth of all the voters actually wanting a labour government enough to go and vote for one and a third of those they've destroyed that vote already because they do just one thing after another to stop growth, damage enterprise, get in the way of prosperity, attack anybody who's got any get up and go and make some money and dares to save and invest and then clobbers the pensioners on top. i mean, it's just dreadful. >> i mean, pensions have risen far out beyond what wages have

risen from when gordon introduced it originally we had huge intentionally both government grants. we had huge both governments. that's quite right. and we had huge pensioner poverty beforehand. that doesn't exist in the same way now. so there are some arguments for reforming the system. but i do worry that we might have bitten off a bit more than people could chew. >> i think labour's just got this one wrong, and i think a lot of your colleagues would quite like to have the opportunity to say that it's going to be a very a debate. >> there's going to be a vote on this. it's pretty clear there must be a debate, nigel. no, no, there'll be a debate and a vote. and the opposition can, of course, order a debate more or less. >> any time. >> any time. >> i think it's their opposition. i think it's going to be fascinating. a story. yesterday i didn't tell you because i didn't think it would even make the news. that was that yesterday a dinghy collapsed in the channel and 50 people were in the water. they were all rescued by rnli and border force and brought safely into dover. didn't even make the news. but today, of course, it does make the news that 12 have died just off cap gris—nez on

the other side of the english channel the other side of the english channel, with two more missing, bringing the numbers of dead in the english channel this year up to nearly 40, a problem again that the government are going to find very difficult. let's finish this segment on a lighter note. well, slightly lighter note. well, slightly lighter note. it may actually enrage you. have you heard of the 0% alcohol guinness? have you heard of it , lloyd? of it, lloyd? >> i've heard of it, yes. you heard of it, john? >> no. it's unbelievable. it's unbelievable. i mean, you literally pour this stuff and it dnnks literally pour this stuff and it drinks like guinness. and i've got a republican friend. he says it's great. he says his regulars drive in. they have 2 or 3, which is their limit for driving, but then they stay for 2 or 3 more because it's alcohol free, you know, and they're quite happy to do that. i'm a bitter man and there's a speckled hen, i think do a00 percent as well. i'm a bitter man too, but i can, you know, i can cope with this. the outrage is it's costing £6.35 a pint in most pubs . i mean, it's not on most pubs. i mean, it's not on is it. >> live. well, i'm afraid to say. in a lot of pubs in brighton, £6 is not beyond the

pale for a decent, a decent brew, a decent, a decent pint. so i'm afraid that's not such a shock for me. what happens with these things ? it's the same with these things? it's the same with non—alcoholic gins and things like this. they do. they cost more because it actually takes far more processing to get a decent product than the old fashioned true and tried method of brewing, which i think we should still be continuing for as long as we can. >> well, so do i and john. but it is interesting, isn't it? you've got, i mean, you know, lloyd mentioned alcohol free gin, this guinness that i've tried is fantastic. i remember years ago there was one brand of alcohol free beer. there's now quite a wide quite a decent choice, isn't there. well, and that's going to solve your problem in the end. >> it will get more competitive. and let's hope it does, because all the time you've got a near monopoly brand like that, then they can charge what they like. but let's hope other people, there's a lot of things even you want to drink, nigel. well, well. >> so you can double your number of pints and still drive home. oh, i love it when i get teased

by the panel. well, in a moment, we're going to talk about the renewable energy auction. no, don't switch off. it's not as dull as you think. it's to have a major impact on your

well, it was boris johnson, really, that started it. the idea that by 2030 we would not be able to buy diesel or petrol cars. no, they would all be electric vehicles. now that of course slipped for practical reasons to 2035. but we do actually have still some very, very big commitments. the zero emissions vehicle mandate, which was announced in september 2023, sets out that 80% of new cars and 70% of new vans sold in great britain must be zero emission by 2030, increasing to 100% by 2035. and hold on to

your hats as a result of this , your hats as a result of this, there is now literally rationing of the sale of petrol and hybrid vehicles all over the country. in fact , if you go and order in fact, if you go and order a new car today from some dealerships, you won't get it till february. whilst the electric vehicles they want to sell well, they are not exactly flying off the shelves and lloyd russell—moyle , i know you're russell—moyle, i know you're very concerned about environmental issues. fact is that petrol and diesel engines , that petrol and diesel engines, hybnd that petrol and diesel engines, hybrid engines are getting better and better and better fuel consumption is getting better and better. i mean , better and better. i mean, markedly so compared with just a few years ago . and the punters few years ago. and the punters don't want evs, do they ? don't want evs, do they? >> well, i don't think it's quite true to say they don't want evs, but the price is still not as competitive as it should be. and for some fleet goods for

kind of for heavy goods vehicles, for , for vans that are vehicles, for, for vans that are travelling a long way , they're travelling a long way, they're still not quite competitive enoughin still not quite competitive enough in terms of their range and their power, but for the vast majority of people, they are a very good vehicle that will suit their needs much better than a petrol car ever would. but the problem is the price. and so what you see is this. and part of the price is unked this. and part of the price is linked to the second hand market, because most ordinary people buy their car second hand, even if it's a few years second hand. and at the moment you don't have enough electric vehicles via the fleet , you don't have enough electric vehicles via the fleet, and it is fleet vehicles that usually get sold. second hand, you know? and so what you need to see is some encouragement for those fleet purchasers to go to electric. whereas at the moment there isn't there isn't a decent financial encouragement that makes the difference up with the extra cost. >> it sounds like the soviet union, john redwood, rationing of sale of cars. i mean , this

of sale of cars. i mean, this sounds like the last days of the soviet union. >> it's a disastrous, dreadful policy. it's going to destroy our auto industry before other peoples. it's going to frustrate the customer. you haven't pointed out there's a £15,000 of vehicle tax imposed if they don't sell enough petrol. yeah sorry. they don't sell enough electric. or if they sell too many petrol. and so they're under 15,000 for every petrol for every excess one that they sell. so they don't sell enough electric cars. they suddenly have big fine because they've sold a sensible number of petrol cars. it's getting in the way of customer choice. it's getting in the way of innovation. being responsive to the market. it's trying to sell people things that are too dear that they don't think are good enough. the range isn't good enough. it's very difficult to know how you get these vehicles recharged. how do you away from home, how do you recycle the batteries? >> because they're basically i mean, you know, the battery is a huge component, isn't it, of an electric vehicle. no one's answered to me the question, how you can recycle them.

>> well, there are some recycling plants that are developing for some. for some of the for some of the natural resources. but it's an issue, but not for all of them. but we have a great, resource of lithium in this country, in cornwall that we need to be exploiting. this isn't just about not taking things out of the earth. there are precious metals that we have that we could be trading and selling, but we also need to ensure that the battery industry is big enoughin the battery industry is big enough in this country to be able to then start doing that exploration in cornwall, which will make cornwall a very rich county again, be for good cornwall. >> but equally a lot of mining all over the world for all sorts of rare earth minerals. moving on, we have a, we have in ed miliband, somebody with a religious devotion to wind power and to the net zero agenda. and it was very interesting. john redwood, about 11 months ago, there was a government auction for people to bid to build wind farms in the north sea. there wasn't a single bidder, but

suddenly, suddenly, they're lining up to bid to build a whopping great wind farms. even a few experimental ones that will float until they get blown away by a storm, i suspect, and now suddenly people are queuing up. what's happened? >> well, two big things changed. there was a big increase in the price that they would offer a guaranteed price for all the power these things would generate. agreed with the previous government, continue with the new government and then the new government is so desperate to make it a success. tipped a lot more direct taxpayer subsidy in as well to sweeten the thing. so of course people were queuing up because they said, oh, we can get a guaranteed return and there's an up front subsidy to help us build the thing out. there's still massive problems. the government hasn't said how they're going to have enough grid because we don't have enough grid capacity at the moment to add all these wind farms, pylons, huge pylons. >> we've got to have pylons all over the great valleys of england in order to get the power from the north sea to london. >> i think people exaggerate the ugliness of these pylons. they are not that bad. and i think

you'd like one over your house, would you? well, there's lots of people that have pylons in their in. i think it's in your backyard. of course you need some compensation, but if it's just in your horizon. i have a wind farm in my horizon that i can look out lovely. i think it's absolutely beautiful. i think it's awful. i've been out around the boat with quite a few times, absolutely delighted to wake up in the morning and have coffee and watch that. and i've always enjoyed kind of going up to north wales or going down to cornwall and seeing those older wind farms that we have had there for many years. but you are right, there are some problems, there are some problems, there are some problems around the connectivity, but the price will remain a problem whilst whilst we're still at this stage of not knowing how all the pieces fit together. >> lloyd, having sat down and gone through the numbers earlier on today , the price is going to on today, the price is going to be a problem for at least a decade, perhaps more. >> the price of nuclear is a problem as well. the price it's not just renewables. >> i mean, there won't be any nuclear because we're going to close down. i mean, there is a statement. >> no, we're building two. we're building two. >> but they won't be on stream

this decade. >> no, they won't be all right. >> no, they won't be all right. >> you produce your own gas. actually, there is an argument that you can do this at a much more competitive price and a more competitive price and a more efficient way of doing it, but basically, the labour promise and the manifesto of more wind farms, more solar and cheaper energy is not true, is it? >> in the long term, it's true. >> in the long term, it's true. >> how long? >> how long? >> well, we're talking about a decade or so after the election. >> i think we're talking a decade minimum. a decade, yes. >> well, but we all know if you don't invest now, you're a pensioner. no, no, no, no, you don't get it later. >> i'm just thinking this through. you're a pensioner. you've just lost your fuel allowance. you're going to have, even though we already pay the most expensive electricity pnces most expensive electricity prices in the whole of europe, they're going to go up even more because we have some of the most commercialised electricity in the whole of europe, and we don't have enough government interference in the market. >> where you see in france and germany and spain, they stabilise it. >> there we are, lloyd russell, government controls government, more government, redwood, less government. right. well, they continue this fight outside. thank you for coming on as you did last week and joining me on the program. now jacob rees—mogg joins me. what jacob, is your

big topic tonight, a big topic. >> tonight's tory party leadership, because tomorrow is the first fence, a six candidates. one of them has to fall tomorrow. so we're going to go through the runners and riders, see who's doing well, who isn't, who's identifying the problems, who isn't saying very much. we've got absolute expert henry hill from conservative home to run us through all of that. so that's going to be our opening discussion. who is going to compete with the great farage? it's really the question i couldn't care less. >> i, i mean, it's the most bonng >> i, i mean, it's the most boring leadership race ever. the pubuc boring leadership race ever. the public don't care. everyone switched off. the problem isn't who becomes the next conservative party leader caretaker leader. the problem is the brand's damaged and the issue is how do you get back to proper conservatism, which some of the leadership contenders have been talking about? >> and it's what john redwood always talks about. how do you get back to market economics, doing things that actually help your constituents? rather than lecture them? and what you've just been talking about is where the whole state tells people to

do one thing, and voters blow a raspberry because they don't obediently go along and buy electric cars. and what we've got to have is a tory party that's on the side of voters. >> well, there you are, joy. >> well, there you are, joy. >> and jacob, after the news. but first, let's have a look at the weather with annie shuttleworth. >> it looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news, weather update brought to you from the met office. through tonight there will be a few showers but for many of us, clear skies and it will turn quite chilly across northern areas, but through the rest of this evening a weather front still to push south and eastwards through parts of scotland, northern ireland into areas of northern england and wales, so cloudier skies will start to develop here through this evening. a risk of some showers across northwestern england, wales and the southwest. the showers, though moving away from the south and east, so we'll turn drier for many of us overnight tonight, but still a few showers

lingering on across parts of western scotland in particular. but clearer skies inland will allow temperatures to fall away to 2 or 3 degrees. in rural scotland, a fresher night than last night as well. across southern areas of england too. but despite the chilly start, it will be a bright start for northern and western areas of scotland, particularly across the highlands and the islands in the highlands and the islands in the west. in the east, though, the west. in the east, though, the risk of showers as well as in the southwest, some of these showers could turn quite heavy, particularly across northern ireland. throughout the middle part of wednesday there's a few risk of a few showers across central areas of england, too , central areas of england, too, but still some sunny spells around and wednesday will be a day of sunshine and showers, generally across the uk. any in any sunshine it won't feel too bad the winds are fairly light after the chillier start. temperatures aren't going to quite reach as high as they have donein quite reach as high as they have done in the past few days, but it will feel pleasant enough with those lighter winds. showers, though, could turn quite heavy with a risk of hail and thunder across parts of northern ireland and western scotland. but it's across the

south and east where we see the heaviest rain develop through wednesday evening that will likely linger into thursday morning. so is a rain warning in force through rush hour on thursday across many southern areas of england and parts of south wales as well. so take a look at our website for more information on that. but looking ahead to the weekend, it looks like it will turn much drier and warmer across northern areas, with rain lingering across more southern areas have a good evening by a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb. >> hello. good evening. it's me,

jacob rees—mogg on state of the nation. tonight, the tory leadership race reaches its first fence tomorrow as the six candidates will be whittled down to five, with four remaining at the end of next week. but who

will reign victorious in light of the tragedy in the channel? earlier today, we will be discussing the need for deterrence to solve the migrant crisis. fewer than two months into labour's reign, and the country is already facing rationing, as it had immediately after the war. the rationing of petrol cars. that is, owing to net zero fanatical fines issued by the government . plus, in by the government. plus, in a considerable surprise to me, my previous iron age culinary habhs previous iron age culinary habits have been picked up in the press by most distinguished social commentator, and tonight i will be revealing a typical rees—mogg meal. state of the nafion rees—mogg meal. state of the nation starts now . nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my most pugnacious panel former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie , of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the pr consultant and former labour aide stella santiaguito. as ever, it's a crucial part of the programme. let me know your views mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's what you've all been waiting for. the news bulletin

with will hollis