free in england and currently free in england and wales. so how do you greet the suggestion that we may be about to ship our onions off to estonian jails? how has estonia got fewer crooks and more jail cells than us? and what about child criminals? there seems to be more and more of them every week, don't they? well, over in georgia, in america, the father of the school shooter suspect is being charged with second degree murder. would you like to see parents in this country be held responsible for their kid's actions ? and would it be fair if actions? and would it be fair if very overweight, overweight people have to pay for two plane seats? this picture you're seeing here has caused a big debate. apparently that guy is affecting the comfort of the people. next to him. it's controversial. let us know what you think . about all that in the you think. about all that in the next hour. get in touch

gbnews.com/yoursay. first, though, the very latest news headunes though, the very latest news headlines with sophia wenzler. >> bev. thank you. good evening. from the gb newsroom. it's just gone 6:00. your top story this houn gone 6:00. your top story this hour. some breaking news to start with. the royal navy serviceman who died when a merlin helicopter ditched in the channel during a training exercise, has been named as lieutenant rhodri leyshon. the helicopter crashed off the coast of dorset on wednesday night dunng of dorset on wednesday night during the training exercise with the hms queen elizabeth aircraft carrier. in an investigation into what caused the aircraft to ditch is ongoing . the aircraft to ditch is ongoing. in other news, a 27 year old painter and decorator has been sentenced to nine years in prison for his role in a violent riot outside a rotherham hotel housing asylum seekers. sheffield crown court heard thomas birley engaged in what the judge described as grotesque

acts of violence, fuelled by malicious and ignorant social media posts. the judge called it one of the most serious cases of the rioting , imposing an the rioting, imposing an extended five year licence because of what he called burley's ongoing dangerousness. now the home secretary has chaired a summit addressing the escalating crisis of people smuggling across the english channel. the meeting followed a tragic incident this week where 12 lost their lives when a boat capsized. the deadliest crossing this year. yvette cooper has been joined by key cabinet ministers, intelligence officials and law enforcement agencies to target criminal smuggling networks. she says there's a moral imperative to act and wants to see tighter collaboration with european partners. >> combined to go after the criminal gangs. they should not be able to get away with making profit in this way, and we need to build on some of the progress that's been made , increasing the that's been made, increasing the work with our european partners as we've been doing in recent weeks and even in the last few

weeks. we've seen the work with bulgaria to stop some of the boats and engines that were destined for the channel but we want to go much further, and that's why we have this operational summit today , and operational summit today, and that's why we see this as such important work. >> meanwhile , germany is >> meanwhile, germany is considering using british funded facilities in rwanda to deport migrants entering the european union. it comes as berlin faces mounting pressure to kerb illegal migration following last month's isis linked stabbing at a festival. german officials think the eu should repurpose the asylum facilities britain set up, which were recently scrapped by keir starmer's government. our political correspondent olivia utley has more with those who argue and in fact, conservative mps are already arguing that if the rwanda policy is good enough for germany, if germany believes it will act as a sufficient deterrent to stop illegal

immigrants coming over to germany , then why did keir germany, then why did keir starmer choose to throw out that policy on his first day in office and replace it with this rather nebulous plan to smash the gangs? now, the government says it has no plans to send prisoners to estonia. addressing rumours on policies to ease overcrowded jails, it comes as the uk prison population hit a record high this morning. now reaching 88,521 inmates, 171 more than last week's peak. downing street insists that building more prisons remains a key priority, and a ten year strategy will be published this autumn to ensure enough spaces for dangerous offenders. in the us, a 14 year old suspect in a school shooting has appeared in a georgia court facing murder murder charges after a deadly rampage on wednesday. the attack left four people dead, including two teachers and two students, and wounded nine others. colt

grey, who used a semi—automatic rifle, is being held without bail and will be tried as an adult. in a rare move, his father, colin grey, also faces multiple charges, including involuntary manslaughter, for allegedly allowing his to son access the weapon used in the attack . staying in the us, attack. staying in the us, donald trump has appeared in a new york court for the appeal against the case that found him liable for sexually assaulting and defaming writer e jean carroll. trump and his lawyers sought to appeal against the verdict and overturn the $5 million fine that was delivered by a jury in may 2023. the case is one of two in which he was accused by miss carroll of sexual assault and defamation. speaking outside the court, trump said it could never have happened. >> i know you're going to say it's a terrible thing to say, but it couldn't have happened. it didn't happen . and she would

it didn't happen. and she would not have been the chosen one. she would not have been the chosen one. she has gone around for years saying the story. everywhere i go, she says the story. and it's a total lie . story. and it's a total lie. >> those are the latest gb news headunes >> those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm sophia wenzler more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code , alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com. >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> very good evening to you. this is dewbs& co with me bev turner standing in for michelle dewberry while she takes a well—earned break. joining me tonight until seven. lord shaun bailey conservative peer and paul embery , trade unionist and paul embery, trade unionist and broadcaster. get your views in of course. gbnews.com/yoursay

fellas, i moved house today so if i feel a little bit distracted, that's why i need you to do a lot of heavy lifting for me. i'm a little bit all over the place, but did you not have people doing that for you, bev? mum and dad. my dad's 88 and my mum is 80. you've got your your octogenarian pair humping your furniture. they wanted to help anyway. everything should be calm for at least the next hour. so today, home secretary yvette cooper chaired a landmark meeting with ministers and law enforcement officials , setting out labour's officials, setting out labour's plans to smash the criminal smuggling gangs working closely now with other european law enforcement , other governments. enforcement, other governments. >> the prime minister has had serious discussions with other european leaders about the importance of us going after this organised immigration crime thatis this organised immigration crime that is making huge profits from this dangerous trade in people, and that's why we're focusing now on going after the gangs, expanding the work with europol and with other european law enforcement organisations.

that's where we think we can make significant progress . make significant progress. >> we had the tragic incident in the english channel last week or this week, actually 12 people dying whilst attempting to cross, including a pregnant woman and six children. and as we speak, people at downing street are about to protest against the. basically what they're seeing is the failure of they're seeing is the failure of the government to tackle this. let me just come to you, sean, on this idea that people are protesting at downing street today against the deaths of these people , that what is it? these people, that what is it? what message do you think they're trying to get across by protesting? >> i have no idea. if they're if they're protesting that these people died, then yes , because people died, then yes, because they shouldn't have died. they shouldn't have been in a boat. somebody should be able to help them, etc. etc. if they're protesting against anything else, i'm not sure what they're trying to achieve, but what you're seeing with this story is an ongoing story. and i think two things here. this is the one time i've been very critical of this government, but this is the

one time they at least look like they're trying to formulate some kind of plan. i've always said the response to immigration pressure in europe is going to have to be international. so convening this, this, this group is a good idea. the fly in the ointment, of course, is they're going to need to go well beyond europe to control immigration. and of course, they are moving very slowly. they still haven't made any appointments to this new border force team that's going to be out there, you know, smashing these criminal gangs. that's right. >> because the border security command is about to be established. there's nobody to lead that at the moment. paul what a job to take that on. you can kind of see it in the eyes of yvette cooper when she's talking at the moment. every time you talk to her, there's an intensity about her that she knows she's got to do something. >> they've got to deliver. and look, i'm willing to give the government a fair wind on this, but they need results and they need results quickly because this is a very pressing concern for millions of voters whose patience is fast running out, and many people, i think, feel

at the end of their tether with this whole issue of the small boats and the wider immigration disaster, the broken system. and my fear is there's a lot of agencies involved in this initiative, and the old saying that a camel is a horse designed by a committee , and there is by a committee, and there is a danger here, i think that the whole thing gets bogged down in the bureaucracy of it , whole thing gets bogged down in the bureaucracy of it, and therefore it will take forever and a day to , to bear fruit, and a day to, to bear fruit, which is often what can happen when you get so many different committees and agencies involved. and the problem for the government is they don't have that time, you know, starmer came to power. he made he made a big thing of the fact that he was the dpp, the director of public prosecutions, and he took down terrorist gangs, and therefore he's going to pull all of these agencies together to make sure we stop the boats, unless they show that they've delivered on that fairly quickly. i think that people are quickly. i think that people are quickly going to become disillusioned out there. >> the efforts are going to be combined with the national crime agency, the intelligence agencies, the police, immigration enforcement and

border force. sean, is an obvious question to say , aren't obvious question to say, aren't they all working together anyway? >> well, the border force doesn't technically exist, so you know, so but that is the new part of their plan. so the technical answer would be no. you'd hope that those agencies are working together. but i actually think that the labour government missed missed a trick here because let's be kind and suggest this works. this is a medium to long term plan . there medium to long term plan. there is no chance this is going to work immediately. simply isn't going to happen. if they had the rwanda plan in place, they would have had an immediate response and they could have phased that out and moved into what hopefully will be a long term response. and they've missed they've missed that trick. and i think it was driven because they just wanted to make sure that in the election they were able to say the conservatives had no plan, or that plan would have been quite useful. >> added to this, how did you greet the news yesterday that germany are looking at our lovely refurbished hotels at the british taxpayer's expense and going, i quite like the fact that you've put the legwork in there with your your renovation.

you've done for us. we'll have a little bit of that for our illegal migrants. >> my immediate response was clever germans getting a bargain because we've sunk the cost. >> some joke in there isn't there, about sunbeds and towels and the fact that we put our towel out and they've now come and nicked the sunbed. >> but the more detailed point is you've heard a lot of labour politicians argue it's a slightly different scheme. it'd be looked at by the un and not their national laws, but essentially it's the same thing. it's a deterrent because the thing that the germans have been clever to not say, okay, it's going to be processing offshore. what happens if you're denied? what happens if you're denied? what are you going to do with you? then you're going to leave you? then you're going to leave you in rwanda. they're going to send you back. so it is the germans keeping people out of germany having an alternative. and one of the single biggest drivers of any type of crime is the idea that you'll get away with it. what the rwanda plan said was you won't. and i think that's why the germans are focusing on it, because of course, they have their own immigration problems, which for the border force is going to be a problem because what european countries will be doing will be they can go anywhere except here and here being their own

country. that would be a challenge for keir starmer. >> just imagine, paul, if it works for germany as a deterrent. keir starmer is then in the most awful position, i mean, of his own making. let's be honest that he will find it impossible to defend the fact that we ditched it, and yet he won't then be able to say, oh, maybe, maybe we will go with rwanda. after all, what could it be then? >> it could be a huge political embarrassment. if it works . and embarrassment. if it works. and sean's right. the whole thing is about being a deterrent. the plan was never to send thousands of people there. no one ever realistically expected that to happen. it was about saying to prospective migrants who were going to come in illegally, this is what could happen. you could end up on a plane to rwanda. and it was hoped that that would break the business model. that would be the disincentive for people, you know, not to come to people, you know, not to come to people to say, there's no point me getting in a in a boat because i might end up in rwanda. i think offshoring is probably the only realistic solution in terms of breaking that business model, which we all want to do because we don't

want to see migrants risking their own safety in the channel. i think a form of offshoring is probably the only realistic solution to stop it. i don't think this plan, it may bear fruit, but it's not going to happen quickly. if we want it to happen quickly. if we want it to happen quickly. if we want it to happen quickly. we do need some sort of offshoring system. i would prefer sean touched on the thing about germany doing it, possibly just for processing, i think that would be reasonable for offshoring to say that we're going to do it for processing only. and if it turns out you have a rigorous system of checking whether the asylum claims are genuine and if they are, i think it is then reasonable as a civilised society to say, okay, we've processed you there, but now you can come here, which it looks like germany may be doing, but that wasn't what we were going to do. we were going to process them there. and even if their asylum claims were approved, we were going to keep them there, which i felt was probably too harsh because of course, what that would do by processing them in rwanda. >> sean, it would mean that people don't just disappear into the black economy. >> and that's the point. work cash in hand in the nail bars and everything else. well, if you absconded, you wouldn't be in england. you would be in

rwanda, which is the real driver. and again, it's about messaging. and i really do think if they could have bolted those two things together, we could have been on to a winner. but i think you really must stress with all the best will in the world, this is going to take an awful long time. and what labour are discovering , to their are discovering, to their horror, is that running a government is very complicated, particularly if every bright idea you have the opposition rubbish and call you racist and now many of the things that they could have done, they themselves have rubbished, so they can't then pick up that tactic because they'll be accused of hypocrisy. >> this is one of the three things they need to do urgently. get immigration numbers down to a more respectable level . get a more respectable level. get economic growth up. that was another big promise. and that's something that people are relying on and get nhs waiting lists down, coming down fast. i think those are the three key things that labour needs to do in order to maintain, so far as they've got public support, in order to maintain that public support. if they don't deliver on those three things which they've said they will deliver on, if they don't deliver on

those three things, pretty swiftly, then i think so far as there is any goodwill towards there is any goodwill towards the government at the moment, i don't think there is actually much. it's certainly not a 1997, it's not a 1997 moment. blair's honeymoon went for on months. yeah, this government has had no honeymoon and unless they unless they deliver on those three objectives, i think that their polling figures could, could potentially tank the economic growth thing is simply not going to happen because they're talking about a four day week and you can talk about compressed hours or whatever you like, but it's a four day week. >> and what's really tragic about that four day week, if you're a brickie, if you're a plumber, you know, i mean, if you if you're a security guard, i was a security guard for over ten years. you can't do a four day week. you have to turn up. so effectively, they've come up with a tactic that will work for the middle classes, and they still won't even be able to deliver for them. so whatever happens, they're going to lower our economic activity, which of course means you don't get growth. and i think that i think, paul, you're right. that is the challenge. those three challenges you laid out.

>> worse than that, sean, they're going to make cuts when it comes to the budget in october. they've already, you know, said that it's going to be very difficult, painful decisions. we know what that means. they're going to they're going to cut in terms of public spending. they're going to make cuts. and that's going to that's going to stifle activity within the economy. it's going to choke off any chance of growth and then i think there's a problem in terms of people's sense of financial well—being and prosperity, where people then think, hold on a second. i elected this government to put more money in my pocket to give me a bit more disposable income, to make the economy more prosperous, to get growth in the economy and all they seem to be doing is carrying on with a sort of george osborne type. but you know, what's slipping away? austerity and cuts, which is, i think, the last thing the economy needs slipping away. >> this idea that the left are kind. yeah. because the idea that they've had that the left have somehow had the monopoly on compassion and kindness because you're taking away the winter fuel payments, as we're saying, for the pensioners, people aren't feeling they've got any more money, they're going to be tax hikes. we're seeing massive

censorship and arrests for people saying things online and this sort of strong arm. and the only thing they've got that's trying to they're trying to parade themselves as compassionate is the idea that they wouldn't send people to rwanda. that's about to backfire on them. >> well, look, this this group of mps are going to be a problem for starmer because lots of them are new and they haven't been written to by angry constituents. and i can tell you from someone who's involved in politics, the first time that happens to you, it rocks your world. the other point to make as well, paul, is correct about these cuts coming down the line. remember this isn't the first time that labour have had a programme of austerity. they talked about it in 2010 and reality bites. what's really important is that they suggested that they wouldn't be doing these things, and you get into hypocrisies. and a the conservative government lost the last election. let's be clear. but they didn't lose on one big thing. it's the death of a thousand cuts. and that process has already started with labour, which is a bit of a surprise. i thought it would take longer. >> rachel reeves thinks that we can cut ourselves to economic growth, that was something that

maynard keynes taught us that we couldn't do after the depression of george osborne would beg to differ. >> well , george osborne, george >> well, george osborne, george osborne and rachel reeves are currently in the same camp, and that's a really disturbing thing about it. >> you cannot cut your way to economic growth. you can only you only achieve growth by investment and by maintaining activity in the economy. and in doing that, you actually increase your tax revenues and you give yourselves more opportunity in order to be able to spend on. >> i want to add one other to test your three tests housing. if they do not get somewhere very, very close to their 1.5 million homes, they will have a massive problem. and when you talk about economic growth, the other way to achieve it is to lower people's living costs. housing is the single biggest one. that would be a great win. they've got a real challenge on their hands. i think they need 8000 homes a week, right? >> brilliant. thanks, gentlemen. okay. still to come. labour are reportedly considering sending british prisoners to estonia to help with our overcrowding problem. would you support that? don't go anywhere

me? welcome back to dewbs& co with me . bev turner sitting here with me. bev turner sitting here for michelle this week. still with me. lord shaun bailey, conservative peer and paul embery trade unionist and broadcaster. so plans are reportedly in the pipeline to transfer criminals to estonian jails in a bid to tackle britain's overcrowding. prison crisis the estonian justice minister, lisa pakosta, revealed that a number of countries are interested in using estonia's unused prison space. home office minister angela eagle here has refused to rule it out. so should we send our prisoners to estonia? paul, i i'm sort of all right with this. i have to say. i think if we haven't got the spaces, i don't care where you put people if they've committed crime, as long as it's not costing us more money. i'm all

right with it. >> let's just be clear. we've scrapped the rwanda scheme , but scrapped the rwanda scheme, but we've fired up the estonians. >> you couldn't write it, could you? >> so illegal migrants mustn't go to rwanda, but convicts must go to rwanda, but convicts must go to rwanda, but convicts must go to estonia, i'd rather them over there than on the streets here, if that's what it takes. to be honest , i don't here, if that's what it takes. to be honest, i don't think it's a particularly good idea. but shows what an undeveloped country we are , shows how country we are, shows how serious our problems are in terms of infrastructure and planning that we just can't build anything, our prison capacity is creaking, and we just, you know, you look at nuclear, you look at railways, you look at the prison system, you look at the prison system, you look at housing. we are, frankly, utterly useless these days as a society in terms of infrastructure and planning and how it ever got to a point where we're thinking as an advanced industrial, modern democracy in western europe, that we are having to send some of our prisoners to estonia because we don't have the capacity here, is, frankly , absurd, but it's an

is, frankly, absurd, but it's an indictment of where we are. i think it suggests that estonia is more successful than us, doesn't it? >> they must have more prison places and fewer criminals. how have they done it? well it's much smaller population, different makeup of people. >> international comparisons are normally useless as far as i can see. >> pretty much communist till about 2530 years ago. and look how i mean, you need to take a deep dive. >> the point i when i read this story, i was like, wow. again hypocrisy. because this was first mooted by alex chalk, the then justice minister, and the labour party came down. they descended and said, this shows that you're disorganised and this, that and everything are really against it. now when they're in government, all of a sudden it looks like something they'll have to consider, to do. it would be a bold step. wow. it'd really be a bold step. and you'd have to sort through. who do you send? why do you send? what do you do about rehabilitating them? how do they see their family? how long for what level of offence? it's one of those things where the devil would be in the detail. but

there's no denying if a government took that step, they would be able to point to serious, bold action. >> it would be embarrassing on the global stage, wouldn't it? wouldn't it be embarrassing to think that we've got so many people who are now criminals and so few, like you say, paul. so little investment in our criminal infrastructure. >> but i think people spot that about our country anyway, bev, to be honest, i think they see us. >> us. >> we're just embarrassing. >> we're just embarrassing. >> well, i think they see us as an undeveloped country and, you know , we don't make anything know, we don't make anything anymore. our manufacturing sector has been absolutely decimated. our industrial base more widely make criminals has been. yeah. has been has been absolutely decimated. our economy has been flatlining for 14 years or whatever it is now, you know, governments seem to be absolutely in hock to the liberal woke agenda and completely out of kilter with, with many millions of people across mainstream britain. i've never detected before now such a lack of enthusiasm in our national and trust and faith in our national and civic local

institutions, and i think that especially in these days where we're so kind of interconnected around the globe, i think people elsewhere in the globe, elsewhere in the globe, elsewhere on the globe, kind of spot that and sense that britain isn't anything like the force that it once was. and partly that's because the world changes and economy changes. you have emerging economies, china and stuff like that, but i think we've lost that instinct where we've lost that instinct where we used to just get stuff done, where we had a manufacturing base that was the envy of the world, and we were a real kind of industrial and economic powerhouse. and that wasn't a natural phenomenon where all of that died away. i think that was because of the active and conscious decisions of politicians going back about four decades or more. it didn't have to be that way. but i think the way that the country has been managed and particularly the way that the economy and industry has been managed, i think it was inevitable that we're going to end that. we were going to end up where we are. so that's 14 years of conservative rules for a meander through

history. >> i slightly disagree with paul >> i slightly disagree with paul. i do take your point that we are we are beginning to look underdeveloped. but there's two things i'd say if you travel around the rest of the world, you very quickly realise that actually we have a very well developed country. that's the first point i'd make. the second point can still be, developing. yeah, the second point i'd make is that much of the world has caught up, you know, they've caught up, you know, they've caught up, you know, they've caught up, they've changed, we've adapted. we still have an enormous economy and we're still forging ahead in some ways where i think you are correct, we don't get things done. and what we've done, we've given so many people with a tiny stake, a very big say, and it's derailed. i don't consider left and right anymore. i think that's passe as anymore. i think that's passe as a concept, but i'd have to say people on the left have been very adept at destroying the nofion very adept at destroying the notion of the british nation. if you say anything british, anything family , anything anything family, anything church, royal, you know, anything traditional , they'll anything traditional, they'll either tell you you're homophobic, racist or whatever or whatever . and if you keep or whatever. and if you keep that line of inquiry and pressure going for long enough, people start to believe you and

people start to believe you and people are ashamed of the country. >> look, look, i was going to say, look at hs2 now. i wasn't a fan of hs2. i wasn't a supporter of it. i thought it was wrong from the outset. but even if you were a fan of it, just look at how long. look at the process, the bureaucracy, that it got bogged down in, in terms of planning and so on. and look how that piece of infrastructure just took years and years and years and it's still not here. and it isn't going to be the end, and it isn't going to be here in the, in the form that was first that was first planned. now a country like china, whatever its faults, and it's got many a country like china would have had that done in a year or two. >> wouldn't that have meant us? >> wouldn't that have meant us? >> wouldn't that have meant us? >> wouldn't that have meant bulldozing over people's houses and businesses? >> not necessarily. because in china, building on vast amount of space and much of it is still pretty sort of undeveloped? i mean, if we taken the approach. >> oh, you mean you mean here, we've done that here. >> we would have upset a lot of people by building a track over their home. >> this is this is the challenge for a nation, isn't it? do you

give every little individual the power of the government or not? this government, they're not going to give any individuals the power. some would argue that in the wrong arena they do. now. i remember when they wanted to extend the runway at heathrow. i went to those villages and thought, you're right, they shouldn't extend this runway. so, you know, there's always a winner and a loser and up and a down side. but i, i really do believe that paul is correct. we are we are frozen. we are not delivering even for ourselves . delivering even for ourselves. and we're very poor at planning these things as well. i want the labour government to succeed because it means the people of this country do well. i don't believe they're going to, but the one place where i really, really hope they succeed is with planning so that we can change the way we deliver for our country. >> i want to just this point that you made, sean, about the fact that it always feels like a national identity is no longer anything to be proud of. this, this, and i completely agree with you, by the way, on the idea that the left versus the right are redundant since we've had that discussion on this show before. paul, these two stories, rwanda and also this one about

prisons, the basically the conflict is between a globalist view of the world. we you will take our migrants. you will take our prisoners, we will take your migrants, which is much more working with other countries and a more kind of isolationist view of the world, which is really the ticket that reform stood on at the election. a surprised everybody by the idea. they were saying, let's put the uk first, put great britain first. we will build the infrastructure here. maybe that's how we have to view politics now. more of a globalist versus a nationalistic view of where we get our growth, where we place our our finances, how we prioritise the tax money. >> i think people think we should work with other countries, work in harmony with other countries, trade with other countries, trade with other countries, trade with other countries, have good relations with other countries. but i detect that there is no appetite whatsoever among most people for a kind of borderless world. i think most people are still supportive of the idea of

the independent nation state. it's the best democratic unit, i think has proven over time to be the best democratic unit at its highest level in terms of democracy, in terms of people feeling some sort of connection with the government and being able to elect and remove the people who govern them. i think once you go beyond the concept of the nation state and you get into, you know, supranational institutions like the eu for example, i think that's when the democratic elasticity, as some people call it , then breaks people call it, then breaks because people think actually this is just like a faceless bureaucracy, i can't elect and remove these people. i don't feel that i have any control, any democratic control over them. i feel that they have a control over my life and what goes on in my community. and i think i've argued for some time now. i think the world needs to globalise. i don't accept that globalisation is a natural phenomenon. i think it's a man made thing, and i think the world and i'm not saying we should be little englanders or that we should, you know, be a

society that, you know, thinks it can just get by on its own without help and trading with other people and with other countries. but i do think we need to de globalise in the sense that we need to to, reinforce the concept of the nafion reinforce the concept of the nation state, because that's what people still have faith in. >> i'm with you. >> i'm with you. >> democracy is i don't hear that message at all from those in power. i think to have that conversation on the doorstep, it just wouldn't apply. >> and this may surprise you, because if you stood on the doorstep, i've stood on many, many thousands of doorstep and started talking about globalism stuff. there's only one set of people you'll really be talking to. the highly educated ones who want that and when i hear that conversation, by the way, i largely agree with what paul has said. what i hear is a class war because when what was interesting when we when brexit happened, you had many people from the middle classes, in their view, rightly saying we should stay and for them they're correct. it worked. europe paid them, they made big money. they were able to raise the kind of funds that you couldn't just do in one nation because they were spread out. but of course, if you're a normal working man or

woman, europe didn't work for you in quite the same way. and i worry that if we go down the further down the road of globalism, we will get a real split. and paul often talks about the inequality in in income and inequality. if we go the globalist route, then we will really see that dharma is the ultimate globalist. >> do you remember him famously answering that question? where would you rather be, westminster or davos? and he said, he said, davos said davos. well, i'd love to see tony blair behind the scenes who just is you know he'd love to be president of the one world government. tony blair i'm sure. >> what did covid prove. covid proved the problems of global supply chains that actually if you simply rely on global supply chains and say, yeah, we believe in a global world, we'll buy into globalisation, the new global market, and we'll import loads of stuff from our ppe from china and wherever it is. and all of a sudden, a crisis hits. at that moment, we saw the problem with not having a domestic industrial base and not being able to make our own things. >> i just want to be able to produce our own stuff, and that

was a prime example. >> i desperately don't want to sound like a like a little englander because to be clear, globalism has great strengths. you know, the level of technology we've delivered , technology we've delivered, drugs for health care, all sorts of stuff . and people always of stuff. and people always should take that into account. but what we do need to do is understand how globalism doesn't work for every level of your society. what we do need to do globally, i think, will make the biggest impact is global wide tax standards, because that would level the playing field slightly. and when we talk about globalism, we talk about gdp. gdp is not distributed evenly. and therein lies some of the risk. and the idea that , you risk. and the idea that, you know, one poor nation could take the rubbish and the other poor rich nation could take the best, i think is immoral. and that's why when people argue, they say, oh , our nhs only works because oh, our nhs only works because it's full of foreigners. they shouldn't be happy about that. they should aukus themselves. why are we pinching the best people from poor nations around the world? >> what global globalisation has

done for democracy in terms of the power now of the multinationals and the power and influence that they exert constantly over democratically elected national governments, where they can say to them, yeah, reduce your tax levels, reduce your corporate tax levels, reduce your regulation, your environmental standards, your environmental standards, your workplace standards, employment law. and if you don't do that, then we're not going to come to your country. or if we're already here, we're going to up sticks and go somewhere else where we can have those things. so the power of the multinationals, as a result of globalisation is growing. it is growing. it's growing, and it's allowing them to exert enormous pressure on elected governments. and the biggest transfer of that cheapens the vote in the last four years. that's why that debate is about international tax standards. >> so we're a bit harder to play us off against each other. >> yeah. interesting. right. thanks, fellas, right. coming up in georgia, america, the father of a suspected school shooter is being charged. would you like to see that here with parents

responsible, criminally responsible, criminally responsible for their children's behaviour? don't go anywhere

welcome back. dewbs& co with me. bev turner this evening. you have been getting in touch. graham says. paul, you're absolutely right about the move towards globalisation to many powerful people in government supporting the west and the davos mentality, which is taking britain to the dogs. and adrian says everyone, do you think starmer, labour are disliked by the british people or is it just on this channel? that's interesting isn't it. do you think out there. well, no, because all the polling is showing that starmer's popularity is on the floor. >> it was a loveless landslide as one commentator, he has a lower vote. i think it's fair to call it a lower vote share than jeremy corbyn. >> yeah, it shows. >> yeah, it shows. >> it shows you how bad the tories were. yeah, exactly.

>> i would not try to cover it

criminal activity? children's criminal activity? right. first of all, we have to lay our cards on the table. we've all got teenagers, all three of us here. you've got a couple, you've got a couple. i've got a couple and a slightly older one as well. the idea that we could be held culpable for what our teenagers are doing on a friday night when we sat here, how does it make you feel, sean? >> i mean, i nervous. it's very response. and as someone who was a youth worker for many, many years, i've come across a lot of parents through no fault of their own who couldn't control their own who couldn't control their child. and in order to do that, i could tell you many a story where people had phoned the police and said, could you come and take this child away? i can't deal with them. there was one particular murder case in london where the mother had begged social services and the police to get involved before he actually went out and murdered someone. so my short answer to this would be no. once you cross the legal age of responsibility in this country, criminal responsibility is ten. i believe. i think the individual needs to take some more responsibility. but i will say this when you are dealing with

anti—social behaviour, for instance, the cure often is in the parents, so parents should take some responsibility. but you'd have to finagle that depending on the severity of the crime and what was actually done in this particular case, i hesitate to judge too much because i don't know the full details. the big issue here would be how did the son get the weapon if the father was involved in that? i could see why the americans would look at it differently and people need to remember we live in a very different culture. the idea of us giving a 14 year old gun is anathema in america. that's not so strange. >> the allegation is that the father bought this boy a gun when he was 14. now, you might say i bought, you know, i bought him a gun in order so that he could be taught to be responsible with that gun . we responsible with that gun. we live in a gun culture. i can see how as a parent, he might be able to just. i mean, it's ridiculous to us that you ever buy your child a gun. it's bonkers. but, would it change how people parent? paul, do you

think? >> well, the bible says that the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son, and i think that's probably true in reverse. is there anything about the mother broadly? no, it doesn't actually. funny that quite a patriarchal book, isn't it? the bible. but i think broadly that's true in reverse. but i think if it can be demonstrated that a parent has been negligent or reckless in the way that they've been parenting, you know, if they've allowed a kid access to guns or if you knowingly allow your child, your teenager, to go onto the streets at night tooled up with a knife, for example , or if with a knife, for example, or if you know that your kid has been committing crimes regularly, shoplifting or whatever, and you do absolutely nothing about that, you don't try and seek assistance from authorities or from the police, and you just allow them to continue doing what they're doing. i think there's an argument there to say, actually, you are culpable as well. as a parent. you've been negligent. you've been

reckless. you should have done something about this. you should have intervened. you can't just put your hands up and say nothing to do with me. >> can i give you a challenge? most of what you said would already be illegal, and imagine the scenario we have. >> we all have more than see parents prosecuted because their kid has stabbed someone. >> and i just want to give you a scenario. we all have more than one child, and if you punish a parent, remember you're you're often affecting the other children in that household. you need to be very careful. when we jail women, for instance, their family, their children, just disintegrates. and what that does, it then punishes us all because we then end up picking up the tab. more crime and stuff. so you need to be careful. i fully see where you're coming from, and there'll be certain cases where you could say, you and that child need to address this, but you'd have to be very, very careful about it. >> there was a case in in michigan in america earlier this yean michigan in america earlier this year, and this was another school shooter, jennifer and james crumbley, the parents of ethan. he was 15. he bought a

handgun and he shot four people and injured six for the four people, they all died . the people, they all died. the parents were sentenced to at least ten years in prison. wow. for not securing a firearm at home and for acting indifferently to signs of their son's deteriorating mental health, i think i mean, i have to say, i imagine that some parents wouldn't know what deteriorating mental health is. >> i mean, the case will always turn on on the facts, and no doubt that was part of their defence and obviously the jury, assuming there was a jury, didn't didn't accept that. but at face value, i have to say i don't think that's unreasonable. yeah.i don't think that's unreasonable. yeah. i think if you if you're a parent and you have been negligent and you've allowed your child access to a lethal weapon, which clearly no child should have access to, that child has then gone out and slaughtered people and ended the lives of other young people. and if, as it appears to be, there was evidence that the child's mental health was deteriorating and something like this may have happened and they did nothing about it, they didn't intervene, they didn't seek assistance. theni

they didn't seek assistance. then i have to say, i have no problem with the authorities saying you are you are responsible, not completely responsible. >> you are partly responsible just to say, do you know what the problem is? >> and i've said it before on this channel. i'll say it again. we've treated children like adults and we've treated adults like children. so don't be surprised if children go and kill people like adults, right? we've got to take a quick break. we're going to talk in a minute just about aeroplane seats. and if you're a large person, should you buy

i'm so sorry to have this i'm so sorry to have this discussion at 10 to 7 on a discussion at 10 to 7 on a friday night, when you possibly friday night, when you possibly tookit friday night, when you possibly took it into your tea, but this tookit friday night, when you possibly took it into your tea, but this photo got taken by a passenger photo got taken by a passenger on an airline, and it's on an airline, and it's provoked, provoked a response provoked, provoked a response because it was uploaded onto because it was uploaded onto facebook. it was a helsinki to facebook. it was a helsinki to copenhagen . and the accusation copenhagen . and the accusation copenhagen. and the accusation being that this gentleman should copenhagen. and the accusation being that this gentleman should have bought two seats, shaun have bought two seats, shaun bailey should he have bought two bailey should he have bought two seats? >> initially i felt bad about seats? >> initially i felt bad about

the idea that you'd have to the idea that you'd have to charge a person for two seats. charge a person for two seats. but of course, what about the but of course, what about the passenger next to you? it's passenger next to you? it's unfair if you paid for that unfair if you paid for that ticket and that person is ticket and that person is effectively sat at least effectively sat at least partially on your lap, you partially on your lap, you would. you would have been would. you would have been undersold. quite frankly. undersold. quite frankly. >> maybe there should be paul , a >> maybe there should be paul , a >> maybe there should be paul, a fatty section on the aeroplanes. >> maybe there should be paul, a fatty section on the aeroplanes. you kind of feel that's the only you kind of feel that's the only way it's going to go, because we way it's going to go, because we are now you were saying, sean, are now you that's . in the break, that we've now taken over america per head. >> i think i read that recently, >> i think i read that recently, >> obese it is. it isn't a pandemic of obesity. we have beenin pandemic of obesity. we have been in that for decades. >> so economy class and business class and fatty section. is that what you're proposing? >> i don't know what the solution is. >> don't make me laugh. >> don't make me laugh. >> i don't know what the solution is. >> i think i agree with sean. if you are that big, you should know that there's every chance you're going to be encroaching on someone else's space and the other person may have paid a lot of money for that ticket. it might be a long haul flight. i know that wasn't, but it could be. and you might be stuck beside that person for god knows how long. but what baffles me is that in this age of safety ism,

you know where we're

same person, but no, that's. >> well, is it called a bariatric rescue ? bariatric rescue? >> have you ever been on one of those? >> well, i have to say, i mean, i haven't sat on a fire engine for some years now, although i'm still in the fire service, they were very rare in my day when i was riding a fire engine. they are far more common. >> five times more than ten years ago, five times more than ten years ago. >> that doesn't that doesn't surprise me. that doesn't surprise me. that doesn't surprise me. that doesn't surprise me. and there are now entire operational procedures in fire and rescue services around how to properly rescue bariatric people. it could be becoming a bit of a specialism as , as as a bit of a specialism as, as as a card carrying conservatives conservative. >> i don't like tax okay. yeah. the one tax i was fully up for was a sugar tax. yeah. they should have smashed that out of the park because as a person now as an adult with children, it's almost impossible to separate your children from that bad influence of sugar. >> yeah, we could have talked about that for a lot longer, gentlemen, but we have run out of time. we've both got to go and get our dinner now and

choose healthy. >> find where our kids are. >> find where our kids are. >> yeah, find our kids so we don't get arrested. paul, sean, thank you so much for joining us. here's lee anderson . us. here's lee anderson. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> hello. good evening. it's been a pretty soggy day for many southern areas, but across the north and west it's been very warm and sunny. and that theme is set to continue as we head into the weekend. as further heavy rain will arrive as a result of low pressure swirling around to the south of the uk, an easterly wind, though, will continue to bring in some low cloud to north and eastern areas, so some higher and low cloud still to come once again tonight across eastern areas of the north and the north and west, though, another dry and clear evening. now the heavy rain will push into parts of south wales, northern areas of devon as well overnight, but it should tend to fade away as we head into the morning forjust a time, so it will be a cloudy but mild start to the day for most

of us. some sunshine around, however, particularly across northern areas. it's particularly parts of the highlands down towards the central belt where we will see the best of the sunshine at first thing, as well as southwestern areas of scotland in fact, as well as northern ireland. plenty of warm sunshine, temperatures already in the mid teens. first thing, another warm day to come for parts of northwestern england. a cloudier day though for parts of wales and the midlands we've got the remnants of the of tonight's wet weather lingering in these areas. first thing tomorrow, and that will probably develop into heavier showers, potentially some thundery downpours after lunchtime on saturday and across the south. it will be a slightly dner the south. it will be a slightly drier day actually, but there is a risk of showers that will increase as the day goes on as those showers push up from the near continent. so in any sunshine feeling slightly warmer across the south, but still a pretty cool day for many southern and central areas. very warm in the north and west. a more widely wet day to come on sunday. outbreaks of potentially

torrential rainfall across much of england and wales. it will come and go, but it could bring further disruption to travel and delays on the road in the north and west. it stays dry for now, however. from monday we return to a north westerly wind, which bnngsin to a north westerly wind, which brings in much cooler air by by looks like things are heating up . looks like things are heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. now. >> welcome to lee anderson's real world. tonight on the show is back. we've got stephen pound. also got political commentator russell quirk. we're going back in the day with

richard fitzwilliams and tv celebrity simon gross. but first let's go to the . news. let's go to the. news. >> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler with your headlines. at 7:00 pm, a 27 year old painter and decorator has been sentenced to nine years in prison for his role in a violent riot outside a rotherham hotel housing asylum seekers, sheffield crown court heard thomas burley engaged in what the judge described as grotesque acts of violence, fuelled by malicious and ignorant social media posts. the judge called it one of the most serious cases of rioting, imposing an extended five year licence because of what he called burley's ongoing dangerousness . the police dangerousness. the police watchdog will probe the release of footage to the media of a disturbance at manchester airport. it comes after a mobile

phone video clip of an officer