>> good morning and welcome to >> good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show. i'm the camilla tominey show. i'm going to be grilling wes going to be grilling wes streeting, the secretary of streeting, the secretary of state for health and social state for health and social care, following the backlash care, following the backlash over the government's plan to over the government's plan to ban outdoor smoking. will they ban outdoor smoking. will they go go ban outdoor smoking. will they 9° up ban outdoor smoking. will they go up in smoke? i'll also be ban outdoor smoking. will they 9° up ban outdoor smoking. will they go up in smoke? i'll also be speaking to victoria atkins. speaking to victoria atkins. she's the woman who held that she's the woman who held that brief before the tories tory brief before the tories tory farage geddon at the general election. geddon at the general election. i'll be asking her who she's i'll be asking her who she's going to be backing in the next going to be backing in the next tory leadership, and i'll be tory leadership, and i'll be speaking to former culture secretary lucy frazer. she would speaking to former culture secretary lucy frazer. she would have retained her seat if reform have retained her seat if reform hadnt have retained her seat if reform hadn't have stood in her hadnt have retained her seat if reform hadn't have stood in her constituency, so i'll be asking constituency, so i'll be asking

about the threat from nigel about the threat from nigel farage and whether that will be diluted if the tories do manage to actually elect a fully fledged conservative as its next leader . fledged conservative as its next leader. talking of reform, i'm going to be joined by the deputy leader , richard tice, who's leader, richard tice, who's going to weigh in on all things home and abroad. with the rise of right wing afd in germany and also his arch brexit enemy michel barnier being made the new french prime minister, and we're going to be speaking to former tory party treasurer and peer lord farmer , who thinks the peer lord farmer, who thinks the government's divisive arms embargo will prompt more anti—semitism. lots to come over the next 90 minutes, so do not even think of going anywhere . even think of going anywhere. lots to go in in the morning papers this sunday, so i'm going to be discussing those now with giles kenningham, number ten's former head of press. giles, lovely to see you. morning let's

talk about bbc bias. so this is the assassin report that is due out tomorrow. the sunday telegraph has got an early steer . telegraph has got an early steer. doesn't make for comfortable reading for the bbc. it's breached rules 1500 times over the gaza war. tell us more. >> over the past year, it's found what it says is a worrying pattern of biased against israel . pattern of biased against israel. of course we know the bbc came under fire when the war first broke out for not wanting to. failing to describe hamas as a terrorist organisation, danny cohen, former bbc executive, has waded in saying this is an institutional crisis for the bbc, it'll be interesting to see if ofcom do anything on this. they're very keen to sort of wade in on certain rounds, but what will they do on this ? what will they do on this? because, you know, this has been over a year, the bbc, for their part, are saying they're questioning the methodology behind this report, saying i was used. we don't think that can give a fair reflection of the nuances around the, around the stories that they've covered. >> yeah, but you can say that, look, we did a lot on the

telegraph about it as the events after october the 7th were being covered. it's not just an issue with the bbc itself and bbc news, but also bbc arabic. yes and they are. >> they are flagged as one of the main offenders here and talking using terms like genocide, trying to create some equivalence between israel and interestingly, putin in russia. >> i think that's something that jeremy bowen is accused of, who's a foreign editor at the bbc, i mean, i agree with you. ofcom needs to be consistent. all i would say , giles, and all i would say, giles, and they've been very interested in what we do on this channel, but it must also be interested in the interests of balance the national broadcaster does in the interests of balance. >> they should be somewhat, it seems, with bbc they can't really go a week without being embroiled in some fresh crisis. and i just wonder if at some point labour will look to change and change the executives at the top, you know, will tim davie

their own person in there. >> yeah. okay. well we'll keep watching that one. and the full report is out tomorrow. let's talk about the nhs blame game that's currently raging. we've got this report. the observer put it on the front page. it's covered in all of the newspapers. i mean, pretty comprehensively, to be honest. this is lord darzi also known as professor darzi. he's a very eminent surgeon. he's come up with this report basically saying that the nhs is in crisis and seemingly drawing the conclusion that it's because of 14 years of tory rule. yeah, your reaction to that? because the interesting aspect of this in my mind, just thinking purely as a journalist , regardless of as a journalist, regardless of any sort of thoughts about the nhs and why it might be in so much trouble, it feels weird to me that we've got the prime minister today, and indeed wes streeting about to come on this show to comment on this report. we haven't actually seen it. it's not published until thursday. >> no, i mean, i would make two observations on this. this was meant to be a wholesale review of the nhs. he's done this in nine weeks, which for me seems very quick. it's also worth noting that lord darzi, i would

question the independence of this report. he was a labour minister under the last government. he was a labour member until 2019, so it needs to be seen within that context, of course. yeah. this report is saying that the nhs was very poorly prepared for covid. that made the covid that exacerbated the covid. covid crisis, and the nhs is still recovering from the covid crisis and hasn't got back on the front foot. but yeah, i mean, i don't know. we haven't seen this report in its entirety. the politics of this. well, look, the nhs is always labour's strongest kind of area. they always outpoll the tories on it. you know, even in wales, where their record has been pretty miserable. yes, they still uphold them. >> so i should put the welsh record to mr streeting . having record to mr streeting. having said that, charles there is a pubuc said that, charles there is a public perception that the nhs has got worse in the last decade, i would say largely because of people not able to get gp appointments because of ridiculous waits at a&e and also ,

ridiculous waits at a&e and also, frankly, anecdotal tales of people having to pull out their own teeth with pliers because they can't get in to see an nhs dentist. so this has all happened under the tories. it has now completely and i think, look, we've got an ageing population as well. >> so that's going to put an extra strain on the nhs. i think the question is right, labour are the ones who can have a really honest conversation about the nhs, like is it fit for purpose? and it's always been a thing for the tories. they're always quite reticent because everyone was like, oh, all you want to do is privatise it. street streeting so far has been pretty good. he's said the uncomfortable things which need to be said, but he needs to say them because yes, is it fit for purpose in the 21st century? what it was set up for in 1945? the world has dramatically changed since then. the needs of the population are completely different. >> so it's interesting, isn't it, because streeting hasn't done this thing of sort of slavishly treating the nhs as religion. >> yes. >> yes. >> holy grail, you can't you can't touch it. talk about the idea of the private sector coming in and for instance, offering operations to people who are on nhs waiting lists to get them down. so that's been quite encouraging. might also

suggest that streeting is a more, more competent politician in many respects than perhaps some of his cabinet colleagues , some of his cabinet colleagues, and definitely the strongest. >> he's definitely one of their strongest performers. >> he does know he he knows how to sort of appeal to both sides of the ideological divide. i think, talking of ideological divides, there's still one in the tory party, indeed, between the tory party, indeed, between the one nations. and then the harder righties. so we've got this interesting sort of piece in the sunday times by tim shipman, who likes to do the sort of big read and take a look at things from behind the scenes perspective on the tory leadership, race. did you find the first ballot result surprising? and just to refresh people watching and listening to this, their memories, we had robert jenrick finishing on top with 28. we then had kemi badenoch second on 22, james cleverly behind her on 21. then i think was it tugendhat was on 17, mel stride on 16, priti patel knocked out on 14, which i think was quite shocking because

she's a very recognisable name compared to mel stride. >> yeah, i mean i was very surprised that she got knocked out. now the accusations in the sunday times are that jenrick's campaign team lent votes to mel stride to knock patel out in the hope that they can now hoover up her votes. so. but look, all's fair in love and war. politics is a contact sport and there's a lot of rival camps moaning about that. but i think that's all. all fair and square. interesting. a lot of backbiting against jenrick in this interesting piece in the sunday times that might suggest that he's now seen as more. yeah, he is there to be shot at right. he's the front runner. so you have kemi badenoch team rioting complaining about, you know, he's the front runner with the mps, but not with the membership. >> no, i mean, it's a telegraph poll last week found kemi badenoch had 46% of readers support. jenrick was in second place, but he was on 16, 30% less. so it would be weird if kemi badenoch for the membership's point of view doesn't get to the final two. yeah, but let's see. let's have a quick word on labour's vat plan. they're now facing a high court challenge by the mother of

an autistic child. just explain that briefly, gyles. as we think that briefly, gyles. as we think that wes streeting is getting miked up and we'll come to him after the break. yes. >> so there is this high court challenge saying that discriminates against children with special needs. yes now labour are hoping to pass this and bring this , bring this law and bring this, bring this law into practice by january in the middle of the school year, which to me seems incredibly unfair. it does seem like the ultimate sort of class warfare . but yes, sort of class warfare. but yes, there is this challenge and i think it will go. they say they'll go back to the high court by january if they don't get a good attack line. >> this idea that labour are now jeopardising the life chances of children with special educational needs , they're just educational needs, they're just going after pensioners, just after vulnerable kids seems a bit odd. >> yeah, it just seems totally crazy to bring this policy in in the middle of the school year. all right. >> we'll ask wes streeting about that in just a moment because the health secretary will be with us after this. go go anywhere.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show now, wes streeting, the secretary of state for health and social care joins me also the labour mp for ilford north. mr streeting, lovely to see you. this morning. let's have a chat about this nhs report that has been put together by lord darzi. how can you claim that it's independent? when lord darzi was a health minister under gordon brown, you've got one of your own to do an independent report . an independent report. >> well, lord darzi is an independent peer and he's worked for both labour and conservative led governments more importantly, and fundamentally, he's someone with decades of experience in our nhs. that's where his loyalties lie. and the reason i asked lord darzi to do this work is that in order to write the correct prescription for the nhs , we first need the for the nhs, we first need the doctor to provide us with the diagnosis. and that's what lord darzi has done at breakneck

speed, i have to say. i mean lots of people said, oh, is this going to be one of those reviews? that takes years? no. in the last eight weeks, he's been hard at work. i gave his team unfettered access to data held by the department of health and social care by nhs england , and social care by nhs england, and social care by nhs england, and this week he'll be publishing his report and it's the it's for him to publish his report and set out his findings. but having spoken to him this week about the headlines and read some of the reports in the newspapers today, it's pretty clear to people that the gravity of the situation, the depth of the crisis in the nhs and that we need not just investment but reform to get our nhs back on its feet and make sure it's fit for the future. >> okay. i mean, some might question whether eight weeks is long enough to carry out a root and branch report into what is wrong with the nhs. i mean, beanng wrong with the nhs. i mean, bearing in mind that the investigation just into one aspect of nhs failings, the infected blood scandal took years. but anyway, you've come up years. but anyway, you've come up with this conclusion that it's all the tories fault and

yet the nhs is in a similarly terrible state in wales, which has been run by labour for more than 20 years. so why is why is some of the nhs problems just the tories? but the labour government can't take responsibility for what's gone wrong in wales ? wrong in wales? >> well, i don't think lord darzi will be saying it's just the conservatives fault . it's the conservatives fault. it's all their fault. what he does do, i think, is particularly point the finger at the botched reforms of andrew lansley, who came in and delivered what lord darzi is reported as saying is a scorched earth approach to nhs reform that led us paying billions for a top down reorganisation that nobody wanted and nobody voted for. and then the conservatives, having botched that reform, being unwilling to address nhs reform since because it's like the third rail, they dare not touch it. and that's not my view. i mean, robert jenrick, who at the moment is one of the front

runners for the conservative leadership, he was admitting that himself, quite candidly, i thought admirably candidly. i thought admirably candidly. i thought in terms of spelling out the conservatives failure. so i think there are some conservatives who are willing to accept responsibility for, for their part in the nhs crisis , their part in the nhs crisis, but it is deeper. if it was, if it was just about the party politics. well, we've got a labour government now that and that, that will make a difference. but it is also about the substance of the reform that we need. and my reform agenda is aboutis we need. and my reform agenda is about is about three big shifts out of hospital into the community. so we get the gp appointments that people need. the social care that people need, care closer to people's homes, better for patients, better for value taxpayers. it's a shift from analogue to digital . a shift from analogue to digital. so we're not working with outdated systems and allowing the waste in the nhs to go unchallenged. and then thirdly, from sickness to prevention, making sure we're supporting people not just to live longer but to live well for longer. through good public health and

prevention measures. those are the pillars of labour's reform agenda. >> i'm glad you mentioned a former health minister there, andrew lansley. can we talk about another one? alan milburn , about another one? alan milburn, why have you been inviting alan milburn to meetings in the department for health? and apparently, according to the sunday times, sharing official sensitive documents with him when he's completely unelected , when he's completely unelected, he's unappointed, he's unaccountable to the electorate. and yet he's got a multi—million pound stake in a consultancy firm that advises on health matters . matters. >> alan milburn has an outstanding record as health secretary under the last labour government and unlike poor old victoria atkins, who's doing the rounds this morning, who couldn't turn to any of her conservative predecessors because they always left the waiting list higher than they found them, every single labour health secretary alive today, from alan milburn to andy burnham, presided over nhs

improvements that gave the conservatives a golden inheritance of the shortest waiting times and the highest patient satisfaction. have you shared official sensitive documents with him ? i make no documents with him? i make no bones about the fact that in opposition and now in government, i've turned to alan milburn for advice . he has been with me in advice. he has been with me in opposition and in government, helping to shape labour, shared agenda officially as the secretary of state. and of course, of course , meetings that course, of course, meetings that alan milburn has attended that i have invited him to. i have chosen to share papers with him and every other attendee of meetings. nothing commercially sensitive , nothing sensitive, nothing inappropriate. official sensitive documents, meetings, because he's an outstanding he's an outstanding former health secretary. and i'm proud to have alan milburn support and advice. and i'm proud that alan milburn. but he is patricia hewitt. >> he isn't in any official

role. >> alan johnson all delivered, all done. mr street's waiting time. i'm sorry. and the highest patience, mr streeting. >> mr streeting, if your predecessor, victoria atkins, was bringing somebody to in meetings at the department for health and sharing official sensitive documents with them, and they had no official role. they were completely unelected and unaccountable to the electorate. you'd have something to say about it. when she was home secretary suella braverman shared official documents with john hayes, who was an actual elected tory mp, and she got in trouble with the parliamentary standards commissioner. so why are you sharing official documents with a man who i appreciate has an illustrious history within the labour party, but he doesn't actually have an official role? what's he doing in private meetings ? in private meetings? >> alan, alan milburn is an outstanding former health secretary. why is he in official meetings ? sleeves up to help us. meetings? sleeves up to help us. and alan milburn is also a

member of the privy council. and look the bottom line is this jacob rees—mogg is a member of the privy council. >> do you want to invite him along? >> these are these are meetings . >> these are these are meetings. these are meetings that i convene to look at the nhs reform agenda. i decide who attends and i decide what they see. and i'm very proud that we have a former labour health secretary with an outstanding official role in government advising this government advising this government advising this government. advising this government. what advising this government . what is his official role? i hope that we will get alan milburn. i very much hope we will get alan on board in an official. has he got to him? well, just i'm delighted. i'm delighted to have him. i'm delighted and proud to have his support. >> does he have a pass for the department for health? >> i don't know, actually . >> i don't know, actually. >> i don't know, actually. >> shouldn't you find out because he doesn't have an actual job there. >> but he's a former. he's he's a former health secretary with an outstanding track record. and

look we can continue down this line of questioning. i'll continue to say the same thing . continue to say the same thing. well, you're not answering my questions. apologetic about having alan milburn involved in helping this government to shape a reform agenda that will be able to deliver the same kind of results as the last. >> so to just confirm, you're quite happy to have a man sharing official sensitive documents and holding meetings at the department of health, who does not have an official role at the department of health. >> alan milburn is one of my advisers . he comes in to advise advisers. he comes in to advise me as the secretary of for state health and social care, and i've chosen to ask for alan's help because he has an outstanding record as health secretary, a record as health secretary, a record that conservatives can't even begin to touch. in fact, a record that they trashed in their 14 years of disaster and incompetence. >> talking about giving passes to people who are helpful to the labour party. do you think it was sue gray starmer's chief of staff, who gave lord ali a

security pass after he had donated £10,000 to her son luke conlon's constituency election campaign , campaign, >> look, i'm glad you raised this case, actually, because i've been chomping at the bit to say something about this over the over the summer to lord ali is a senior labour parliamentarian . he has done parliamentarian. he has done something and this is why he's under fire from the conservatives that they can't stand. they fix the donation rules at a level that they thought labour wouldn't be able to raise the money for, and lord ali helped us to raise the money to outspend the conservatives at the general election and hand their backsides to them at the ballot box. and they can't stand that fact. but he is a senior member of the parliamentary labour party . he helped advise labour party. he helped advise us and advise the prime minister in opposition. but hang on, he helped us with the transition into government as a senior labour parliamentarian. hang on, mr streeting, entirely appropriate thing to do. >> hang on. you know why there

is a criticism. and by the way, if the shoe was on the other foot and this had happened to the tories, you would be the first on the airwaves to criticise it. we have lord ali donating £10,000 to two different campaigns, one of them is to the campaign of sue grey's son, luke conlan, the next thing we know, lord ali has got a pass to downing street. >> his name's liam, but his name's liam. but what did i just say , liam conlan. lord ali is a. say, liam conlan. lord ali is a. you said luke . he's a senior you said luke. he's a senior parliamentarian , right? who has parliamentarian, right? who has advised. but it's the labour leader for access. supported us in opposition, helped to us transition. transition into government. but that was an entirely legitimate and appropriate thing to do. >> but this guy, lord ali, he's paying >> but this guy, lord ali, he's paying for starmer's senior labour spectacles, he's paying for starmer's spectacles, he's paying for starmer's spectacles, he's paying for starmer's suits . for starmer's spectacles, he's paying for starmer's suits. he's giving money to liam, not luke

conlan. and yet he then gets a downing street pass. why did he get the pass? why did he need it? was it a reward for having paid towards starmer's image and indeed to liam conlan, the son of sue gray, chief of staff's election campaign, was it reward? >> no, it was about enabling him to support the team with the transition from opposition into those early days into downing street. it was a it was practical. and here's the other thing. he is a senior labour parliamentarian. he is also by the way, a lifelong outstanding businessman and, yes, labour supporter . businessman and, yes, labour supporter. and that's the other thing the conservatives can't stand. they can't stand it when successful business people back laboun successful business people back labour, and that's why they have been gunning for him. but he is a senior labour parliamentarian. he's been a member of the parliamentary labour party longer than most of us in the house of commons. >> they might say they don't

like valuable role in helping labour to win the general election campaign, and that's why the tories are gunning for it, because they are tories bitter losers. the tories might be gunning for him because they think there's a bit of hypocrisy going on over accusations of cronyism. should we talk about vat on private school fees? we've got one mother now of an autistic child who doesn't have an ehcp, so she won't be able to get help with her private school fees now taking legal action against the government. so far in the last week, we've had starmer taking on vulnerable pensioners. we've now got the labour party taking on vulnerable children with autism and other special educational needs because their parents now can't afford the fees. oh, and by the way, on top of that, the government's introducing this change in january in the middle of the school year. so it's the most disruptive it can be to children . children. >> well, i'd say two things in response, camilla. i mean, i'm not familiar with the specific case, but from what you've just

described, it sounds like that pupil would be entitled to an iep. they don't have one exempt them from vat on school fees , them from vat on school fees, 100,000 children don't have them and they've got special educational needs. >> well , i'd educational needs. >> well, i'd say that's the first thing to say is that is that there is that exemption. >> and that relates to the second point. this isn't a surprise . this isn't something surprise. this isn't something that we've decided to do in government that wasn't in our manifesto. we are running out of time, mr streeting. some time now, schools can't say they weren't warned. we did make it very clear and the priority for this money is to invest in the state. education that benefits the 93% of pupils in this country , including the most country, including the most vulnerable and disadvantaged. all right . so that's the thrust all right. so that's the thrust of mr streeting. that's the government's agenda. it's for the 93% at state schools, not simply the 7% at independent schools. and people were forewarned . so they can't

forewarned. so they can't complain now. >> all right. mr streeting, thank you so much for your time this morning. we have to go for time reasons. thank you. always to talk to you. and you. victoria atkins is

well . well. >> welcome back. much more to come . in the next hour i'm going come. in the next hour i'm going to be joined by the shadow health secretary, victoria atkins, to respond to that wes streeting interview. and i'll be speaking to the former culture secretary, lucy frazer. but first, here's the news with sophie reaper. >> thank you camilla. now it's time for the latest news headunes time for the latest news headlines from the gb newsroom . headlines from the gb newsroom. today marks two years since the passing of britain's longest reigning monarch, queen elizabeth ii . she was on the elizabeth ii. she was on the throne for 70 years and was beloved by the nation and around the world. the king and queen are expected to attend a church near balmoral this morning for

prayer and remembrance of his late mother . the prime minister late mother. the prime minister has hit out at the previous government this morning, saying the nhs has been broken. in what? in ways that he called unforgivable. these comments come as a review into how children are treated by the nhs is due to be published in the coming week. speaking on the camilla tominey show just a few minutes ago, health secretary wes streeting set out labour's plan to tackle the nhs crisis . plan to tackle the nhs crisis. >> my reform agenda is about is about three big shifts out of hospital into the community, so we get the gp appointments that people need, the social care that people need, care closer to people's homes, better for patients, better for value taxpayers. it's a shift from analogue to digital . so we're analogue to digital. so we're not working with outdated systems and allowing the waste in the nhs to go unchallenged. and then thirdly, from sickness to prevention, making sure we're supporting people not just to live longer but to live well for longer through good public

health and prevention measures. those are the pillars of labour's reform agenda . labour's reform agenda. >> last night donald trump spoke in wisconsin, a key area for his election campaign. the republican presidential candidate pledged trade restrictions and to clamp down on immigration. trump was also critical of both current us president joe biden and his election opponent, kamala harris. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> how biden won i will never know. to me, it's one of the greatest miracles. to me, it's a greatest miracles. to me, it's a great miracle. but how the hell that guy won? but he won and he got in this one. he got 14 million votes. she got no votes. and then they put her in. anyway, the bosses put her in because she's controlled by them. but she will be the worst president. he is the worst president. he is the worst president in history. she will be worse than him. she will be worse than him . and trump is worse than him. and trump is never wrong. i am never, ever wrong. >> back in the uk. now the met office has issued a yellow weather warning for rain for much of england and wales, which

will remain in place until 6:00 tonight. they've said this means a small chance of power cuts and flooding in people's homes, with some areas expecting up to 60mm of rain by the end of the day. the annual conference for the trades union congress begins in brighton today, they say. topics on the agenda will include protecting the right to strike, building a fairer economy and winning a better future for working people. oasis announced last night they would send out aniane last night they would send out an invite only registration form for people to join a private for ballot tickets. this comes after millions attempted to obtain tickets last weekend for the band's gigs next summer, but many were left disappointed. oasis and ticketmaster have also faced criticism following so—called dynamic pricing being used, leading to an investigation being launched. if you receive the email overnight, good luck to you in trying to get your tickets in the tennis. a brit has won the us open junior girls competition for the first time since heather watson took the title in 2009. 15 year

old mika stojsavljevic beat off japanese wakana sonobe in two sets, becoming the youngest winner of the competition since 2006. and we're now into the final day of the paralympics. over in paris. team gb have already won a massive 120 medals, and are still hoping to add to that total. david weir was hoping to improve on the fifth place he achieved in tokyo in the men's t54 marathon, but only managed to equal his position this morning. but the brits aren't done yet. they still have medal hopes in the para canoe and para powerlifting events. the closing ceremony will take place tonight with swimmer poppy maskell and taekwondo athlete matt bush carrying the flag for team gb those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm sophie reapen headlines. for now, i'm sophie reaper. more from me in the next houn >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com

forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. still lots more to come in. just a minute. i'm going to be joined by the shadow health secretary, victoria atkins. who does she think will be in the final two of the tory leadership? i'll also be joined by the former culture secretary, lucy frazer. would she still be an mp if rishi sunak hadn't called that pesky early election richard tice, the deputy leader of reform uk, will be here is the newly elected french pm michel barnier a threat to reform? now he's in power across the channel and i'll also be joined by conservative peer and former treasurer of the party, lord farmer, who share his concerns for the future of britain's jews, not least after david lammy's decision on arms to israel. but first, let's speak to victoria atkins. she's also the mp for louth and horncastle. lovely to see you. blimey, victoria, you seem to have some. you're competing with

a bit of background noise. we'll do our best there . first of all, do our best there. first of all, this report by lord, the joys of a live interview. i know, i know, we would have had you in studio, but the timing didn't quite work out. but. but look, bear with me. the lord darzi report paints a terrible picture of the state of the nhs for instance, it makes the point that waiting times for newborns and two year olds are up 60% since 2009. i've just had wes streeting the health secretary, your replacement on basically saying that the tories have left the health service in a worse state than when they found it. thatis state than when they found it. that is fair comment, isn't it? >> well, good morning and i, as health secretary, always wanted to have a constructive conversation about the future of the nhs. we know that it is suffering from some of the long term pressures facing our society. for example, we're living longer, we're living longer with multiple major conditions. and of course those

require care. we know, for example, that social media is beginning is having an impact on young people's mental wellbeing. and of course, we had the shock of the pandemic and what i was clear as health secretary was that in to order build the nhs for its next 75 years, we have to marry reform with investment. and that's why, for example, i brought in the £35 billion tech and productivity plan to get the best front line technology we to can open up the nhs app to even more people than we have. 3.3 out of four adults have it on their phone. miss atkins, we can't. me is that with all of this report , with all of this this report, with all of this report, they're not focusing . report, they're not focusing. they're not focusing on solutions. they need to have a constructive discussion with us all about how we can address some of these concerns. all right. >> look, we can't use this interview to sort of replay all of the things i'm having to. >> yeah. no. >> yeah. no. >> hold it. just hold it in with a finger with my phone. >> forgive me. >> forgive me. >> thank you. look, we can't

replay the all of the great things you did while you were health secretary in this interview. the point is, is that the public perception of the nhs is that it declined under the tories. that's because people were waiting for gp for appointments far too long, waiting for operations for far too long, waiting at a&e for far too long, waiting at a&e for far too long. and some of them were taking their own teeth out with pliers. so you have to take some responsibility, don't you? we can blame covid, but. but will you take responsibility for some of the findings of this report? as former health secretary ? as former health secretary? >> so i have always been very frank about taking responsibility. as i said, i use the nhs myself . i've, you know, the nhs myself. i've, you know, diagnosed me with one type diabetes at the age of three. i've seen both the very best of the nhs, but also some of its darker corners, and that is what drove me on as health secretary to drive up those improvements. but i am concerned about this report . obviously, none of us report. obviously, none of us have seen it, not even the health secretary apparently. and what concerns me about the way that labour is seeking to report this report is that they seem to be chasing headlines. you know,

lord darzi is a very respected eminent surgeon. of course he is. also it's fair to say, a former labour minister and a former labour minister and a former labour minister and a former labour peer. but this report should be about what the state of the of the nhs is and providing solutions . and what providing solutions. and what worries me is that labour is using this report as cover for the tax rises. they plan to raise on us all at the budget in october. >> okay , time is fast running >> okay, time is fast running out, miss atkins. so i just want to ask you a question about the tory leadership. so why are you supporting robert jenrick? he's positioning himself as far more right wing than you are . right wing than you are. >> well, look, i, i actually came i did the sunday round after the general election. i think we need to take a cold, hard look at why we lost the general election. i don't think actually it's a matter of left or right within the party. i think it's a matter of trust. we need to regain voters trust . and need to regain voters trust. and having spoken to all of the candidates, all of whom are very

impressive, have some really great ideas and i will be delighted to support any of them should they win. but for me personally, i just i really like the ideas that rob has for the future of our party and the future of our party and the future of our country. one of the things i have long been concerned about is how younger people, younger generations are faring, you know, as health secretary, i talked about that social contract between young people and the nhs breaking down, and that's why we have to reform the nhs and make sure it's more tech savvy to address the modern day lives that we all now lead. rob has spoken a lot about that, and i very much hope that together we will find the common ground that unites. i think tens of millions of people around this country , because around this country, because i've always said that this country has conservative instincts in that we want to build a brighter future for our children. we want to have our own homes, we want a good education. we want a good health service for when we need it. these are principles around which the entire conservative

party will unite. but today the urgency is that one thing on which we all agree is that on tuesday, labour mps have been forced to vote on the winter fuel payment because we as conservatives forced the government to have this debate. before that, labour mps are going to have to make that choice themselves. >> okay, but you're going to support robert jenrick if he becomes tory leader and indeed eventually prime minister and decides that we need to leave the echr and put a cap on migration . migration. >> so i support a cap on migration. of course, we have always said the echr to attract the brightest and the best to this country and indeed, if i may, with the health service . may, with the health service. i'm delighted when a, you know, expert oncologist wants to come from america to work here or elsewhere in the world. that is great news for the uk and for the nhs in terms of the echr in 2014, going back, that far, i wrote a policy paper where i said , as a criminal barrister said, as a criminal barrister working in the criminal courts,

i could see the impact that the echr was having on criminal cases. and i called for us to repeal labour's human rights act because it is that piece of legislation that has brought the echr into direct application in uk law. and so i have a long history, in fact, of being sceptical about the way in which the echr is applied in our country. there are different ways that we can deal with this. and in fact i want us to have a debate about whether we can reform the court, whether we can derogate. i think those are all very, very proper debates we should have. but the one thing that the conservative party has shown is that the conservative party wants to control migration, whereas the labour party seems to be opening our shores. >> some people may argue that the tories had 14 years to control migration , legal and control migration, legal and illegal, but didn't. however, mr atkins, we're running out of time and i need to leave it there. thank can i sorry on that point very, very quickly . so quickly. >> yeah. all right. okay. all right. so on the point about legal migration, i think, you know, it's fair to say that

because of things like the afghan resettlement scheme, which i was the minister for a little while because of our, you know, the hong kong scheme and the ukrainian scheme, we saw a big uptick in legal migration. but importantly, the reforms that we brought in this year is already seeing a decrease in legal migration and is estimated by independent bodies to see it halved by june next year. i bet the labour party take credit for that when they did nothing but vote against it. all right. >> victoria atkins, thank you very much for bearing with us through sound difficulties drilling in the background and an earpiece that clearly doesn't fit in your ear. thank you so much. lovely to speak to you. thank you. thank you, i do find that quite interesting. i mean, why are tories saying that they had a good record on immigration and also, yeah, immigration is now coming down. but it was rishi sunak who called the early election, which means that they can't reap the benefits of some of these numbers. they can't reap the benefits of any of the economic green shoots of recovery that we've been witnessing. and this is a point

i'm going to put to former culture secretary lucy frazer. does she think it was a bad idea for rishi sunak to have called that election early? she lost her seat by a whisker we'll be why she thinks it

welcome back . former welcome back. former conservative mp and former culture secretary lucy frazer joins me in the studio for your first interview since you lost your seat. i'll tell you what. these numbers are painful. 495 votes and reform won 6443. so can we safely assume that if reform hadn't stood, you'd have kept your seat against the lib dems, who ended up snatching it from you by a margin? >> absolutely. i think that's absolutely right. i think we lost the election nationally. i and the lib dems didn't win it in my seat. i don't think labour

won it in the country. the conservatives lost and a lot of those votes were taken either because people didn't turn up or because people didn't turn up or because they voted reform and that was true in my seat as it was. so this is the country euanne was. so this is the country elianne east cambridgeshire. >> and then what was it like? i mean, in the immediate aftermath, were you shocked? were you expecting it? what was the what was the scene? >> i knew that we would win or lose by a very small margin. i had an 11,000 majority. people with 20,000 majorities lost their seats . and so i knew from their seats. and so i knew from their seats. and so i knew from the polling, i knew from a private poll that had been undertaken that it was very marginal in my seat, and we would win or lose by around 1%. i thought i would win. yes, i thought that we would be the winners by that small margin, but in the end we lost, as you say, by 495. >> and how upsetting is it on the night? i mean, because you've obviously got all of these activists who have campaigned for you, presumably you did the whole thing of clocking up thousands of steps a day, knocking on doors and campaigning and leafleting, and

then politics is so brutal. >> it is brutal. i think the whole election was devastating because knocking on doors every day, i could see how we were losing support. people had lost trust and faith in a party that i think has the right values and has the right approach. you know, we were against a party that weren't telling is what they were even going to do, just, you know, take a chance on us. and so it was very upsetting to see that the party that i think, you know, runs the country well was going to lose by some significant margin what came up most on the doorstep with people who said, no, i can't vote for the tories. >> was it this idea? kemi badenoch summed it up quite well. i thought at her launch that too many people thought we were talking right, but governing left. >> i think a lot of what came up was actually internal division within your infighting and infighting, prime ministers. and so what people see is the people who make news, who are fighting

internally, perhaps have their own agendas . own agendas. >> how are you talking about, well, is it suella braverman? is it her op ed for the telegraph? the day before the election, saying, we're going to lose and we're going to lose badly? was that unhelpful? >> i think that was unhelpful. i think that people don't want to see a party that's only talking about itself. people want to see about itself. people want to see a party that's delivering. and the really frustrating thing was we were delivering . we had we were delivering. we had a prime minister who was committed to delivering and on the doorstep. a lot of people said, you know, i know rishi is a decent man, but i'm fed up with you. well, you weren't and we're not. we need a change. >> the main problem with the reform vote, surely, is you weren't delivering on stopping the boats and bringing down legal migration . i mean, that legal migration. i mean, that was a catastrophic error, not just by your government, but by previous tory administrations . previous tory administrations. that promise of tens of thousands. i appreciate. now, we've just spoken to your former colleague, victoria atkins, and she's like, oh, well, the numbers were coming down in the

end and we had unprecedented legal migration because of the ukraine and the hong kong scheme that just papered over the cracks. the point was that the numbers were going up and up and up under the tories and most tory voters think that the tories should be associated with low migration , not high. low migration, not high. >> well, i would challenge you slightly and support what victoria said in the sense that there weren't numbers were coming down, but that wasn't the message that came over. we didn't get that message over at all. it wasn't heard. and there was a lot of conservatives saying that we hadn't done enough. of course we hadn't done enough. of course we hadn't done enough because this is an intractable international problem. it's very difficult to solve. but we were taking steps and we were on the right path. but no one was hearing that on the doorstep because he called the doorstep because he called the election too early. >> in retrospect, it was a mistake. >> i think. i think that look, i'm not sure i would have made that decision. but do you think you would have kept your seat if he had held on? >> i know, i know, we're talking about hypotheticals, but like,

no flights to rwanda taking off, we've now got labour capitalising on priti positive economic news, despite rachel reeves and keir starmer saying that, you know , armageddon is that, you know, armageddon is fast approaching. so it was a mistake. i know you're a rishi supporter, but can't we just lay this out on the table and say, unfortunately, the former prime minister made a giant mistake? >> i am a rishi supporter and it's very hard to take away that loyalty that i have to the to the now leader of the opposition. i think that we don't know what would have happened if the election was called later. i do think there was a change in mood that i was sensing around may. the papers were getting a little bit bored of saying, you know, labour's going to win. and i do think there was a sense that they were starting to say, what is labour's plan? what's your plan? keir starmer? and i think that was just starting. so i do think and i do think the mood in the country was shifting very slightly. yes. again, we should have held on. so do you think there was possibly an opportunity for us had we gone

longer? but it is actually impossible to say. and knocking on doors. i think that whatever whatever had happened, i think we were going to lose the election. we might not have lost to the extent that we lost, but there was severe disappointment, angen there was severe disappointment, anger, frustration amongst our own supporters. let alone those who were floating voters. so i think i think the die was cast. i'm not certain, you know, what the actual results would have been had we waited. >> can i ask you to put back on your former culture secretary hat and discuss this report into bbc bias over gaza? you'll have read the coverage on the front of the sunday telegraph today. the assassin report trevor assassin has analysed the coverage of the gaza conflict since october. the seventh, coming up for the anniversary, of course next month . and it of course next month. and it suggests that there were 1500 cases where the bbc had been biased towards palestine, away from israel. were you concerned

about that at the time? i know you would have had to have minded your p's and q's somewhat in office, but can you be a bit freer to talk about bbc bias on this issue now? >> well, it was the subject that i was asked repeatedly when i was culture secretary about bbc bias, and i was very open that the bbc, on occasion is biased , the bbc, on occasion is biased, and i actually tightened up the procedures within the bbc. we did a mid—term review to ensure that there's more internal opportunity to challenge the bbc, to make sure it isn't biased , and i hope that those biased, and i hope that those procedures are now being fully enacted and people are looking very carefully at the bbc. i do think the bbc has a duty to be impartial and know that the director general, tim davie, takes that duty very seriously. but it does make mistakes and i think that i mean, on on the bbc does thematic reviews . it's done does thematic reviews. it's done two thematic reviews so far. it's done one on its report on

taxation, it's done, one on its report on immigration. and i do think it's something that it should look at as to whether it should look at as to whether it should do a thematic review on its coverage of israel and gaza. >> i mean, what's your suspicion you're a jewish woman. did you get the kind of sniff of anti—semitism in some aspects of bbc news coverage ? bbc news coverage? >> i think that the bbc made some errors. it's accepted that it made some errors. for example, its reporting of the bombing of the hospital. yeah, and it would be interesting to look at how it then responded to that error , which it just that error, which it just corrected online. yes, >> not particularly prominent, not particularly prominent. >> and then if you looked at the time at how it corrected other errors for example, you know, making an announcement at the beginning of the news and that was an error that , it had was an error that, it had geopolitical consequences. it was said at the time by the then prime minister and others. so, look, i am a huge fan of the

bbc. i think that it does something phenomenal. it is a soft power for us here in the uk, but in all that it has a duty and it has a duty to be impartial. >> does ofcom now have a duty to the audience to look at this further? because, as you know, ofcom has been very interested in this channel over the years that we've been launched and on the ground, giles kenningham was in earlier doing the papers and said, well, what's ofcom got to say about all this? what role should ofcom play in the issue of bbc bias ? of bbc bias? >> there wasn't an interview that went by when i wasn't asked about ofcom and gb news. >> well, you can tell us what your thoughts are on ofcom. i mean, first of all, have ofcom taken too much interest in gb? news? >> i ofcom has a responsibility and a role in terms of regulation and i think it does fulfil that duty, well, it has a huge amount of i mean it's just been given more responsibilities in relation to the online act,

>> but it's taken a lot of interest in us, while at the same time we now have a report suggesting, i mean, i would suggesting, i mean, i would suggest that bbc bias on gaza and unfair coverage towards jews and unfair coverage towards jews and israelis might be quite a serious case for investigation compared with, say, concerns about whether jacob rees—mogg broke a piece of news while he was doing a show largely involving comment. do you know what i mean? like where's the equivalence here? should ofcom be filling its boots when it comes to looking at how the bbc reports the news and whether they're reporting it straight enough? >> so the ofcom does absolutely have a role in relation to overseeing the bbc news. but the interesting thing about the way the complaints system that works in the bbc is that you complain to the bbc first, and so it's not a problem. i think it is, and it was one of the things that we looked at in the manifesto was whether the complaints system for the bbc works, because what happened

before we changed the mid—term review was that you complained to the bbc about the bbc, and the person who was responsible for overseeing those complaints, the head of the editorial board was also the person who commissioned programmes, so he was looking at the work that he had already done. so we changed marking your own homework, marking your own homework, marking his his own homework. so we changed and no disrespect to him at all. and i'm told he was a, a very able person. but the system wasn't working, so we changed that in the mid—term review so that, that, that wasn't the case. but i do think we should be looking at, the many people have you complained about the bbc and you just get a reply back saying, we've looked at this, thank you very much. and we haven't seen any issues . and we haven't seen any issues. so i do think there might be some things. what would be worth looking at? i think that's something that would would have to be looked at very carefully. one suggestion might be that ofcom looks at it earlier and we did change some of that as well in the mid—term review . but of

in the mid—term review. but of course ofcom has a huge amount of work, so i think it's something that needs to be looked at. i don't have a particular solution right now, a slight segue, but it was in your brief at the time. >> i know you. one of the benefits of being secretary of state for culture, media and sport is you get to go to the football and things like that. and what do you make of the new england manager interim. but it looks as if he might get the permanent job, replacing gareth southgate. lee carsley saying he doesn't want to sing the national anthem at games. do you have an opinion on that? >> well, i'm very proud, brit, and i think that it is important to celebrate the country that we live in, and i think sometimes we're a little bit embarrassed about being british. we we're very reserved and i think i think we should have, at the proms , we, we should have all proms, we, we should have all songs that celebrate our britishness and our past. and i'm a proud singer of the national anthem. >> although katie derham, who, presents the proms for the bbc, has said recently that she

thinks the lyrics of land of hope and glory and i think the comments being applied to rule britannia as well are very problematic. >> i think we should we made some mistakes in our past. we also did some brilliant things, and i think we should be proud of what we did and learn from our mistakes. i'm a real fan of not whitewashing our history because then we never learn anything . anything. >> so singing land of hope and glory with pride, >> well, i did at the proms and i was standing at the time with the then deputy prime minister, and he did too, >> is there going to be a land of hope and glory for the future of hope and glory for the future of the conservative party? we've got this leadership race. i know you're reluctant to say who you're reluctant to say who you're backing because you obviously don't have a vote. you're no longer an mp, although you are a member. so you will have a vote eventually. can you give me one candidate you hope will be in the final two, even if it's the only woman ? kemi if it's the only woman? kemi badenoch i mean, it would be nice to have a woman and a man for the membership to decide between. perhaps, i don't know. is that a key motivating factor

for you know, kemi is a brilliant person. >> she's bold and strong, but if she gets through to the final, she gets through to the final, she should get through because of her characteristics and not because she's a woman. i think that the next leader of the conservative party should be somebody who takes the fight to laboun somebody who takes the fight to labour, someone who is brave and willing to call things out should also be somebody who can win those votes. back from reform, we started out talking about that at the beginning. we absolutely need to do that. and someone who is presentable to the public that the public aren't scared. are you thinking, well, all all those candidates, all the candidates, it doesn't sound like you're describing mel stride there necessarily, but you could be describing robert jenrick and you could be describing kemi badenoch simply because they're a bit more they're positioning themselves as more right wing. >> i'd say cleverly is a bit more kind of unity. candidate tom tugendhat is a bit more one nation. do you think it's important for them to appoint a new leader that is going to be quite unashamedly thatcherite, beanng quite unashamedly thatcherite, bearing in mind everything

that's happened in the election? >> i think the new leader needs to do those things and it is a huge, huge to job be able to bnng huge, huge to job be able to bring both reform and lib dems back in and win those seats. unite the party, have self, have the imposed discipline. you know, we also talked about that's what i'm trying to pin you down on. >> does it need to be a righty? >> does it need to be a righty? >> i think, you've got to remember you're talking about not just my colleagues and the person who's going to be the leader. you're talking about my friends. >> your mates. >> your mates. >> i know my friends. i've been. i was an mp for ten years, almost. i came into politics with all these people. i know them very well, and they are my friends. >> but you've also suffered a great defeat, and therefore you've probably got some more perspective as to how difficult it has been than some of them who have been fortunate enough to retain their seats. so is your feeling, having knocked on the doors of ely and east cambridge, that actually you need a fully throated right winger in there to take on

reform to take on nigel farage? >> we definitely need to deal with the issues of the rights, but we also need to govern from the centre and we also need a team. i actually don't think that the person who becomes the prime minister is going to have everything, rishi didn't have everything, rishi didn't have everything and boris johnson didn't have everything, and keir starmer doesn't have everything. you can't possibly have all the characteristics in one person. so what you need is a really, really strong team and you need to be able to show that you can turn around the fortunes of the conservative party. you know, i believe , i strongly believe and believe, i strongly believe and i still believe that we have the values that will turn this country around and i do think it's possible to do that in the five year period. yes, because the electorate is so fickle at the electorate is so fickle at the moment . and i do think that the moment. and i do think that keir starmer is making a few mistakes. i think it's very difficult for him. if you think about the labour government, i was a secretary of state, i was a secretary of state, having

served in six departments, having been a minister for six years and having had a few years on the backbenches. now, the people now in the cabinet who have never managed a department or even done any role in them as a junior minister, that's a huge learning curve for them. so i think it's six weeks. yeah, it's possible to turn to for us to turn this around, and i'm sure we can do it. >> lucy fraser, lovely to see you. good luck with what you do next. and thank you for coming into the gb news studio. thank you. well, coming up next, we're going to be joined by the deputy leader of reform uk, richard tice. is he worried about the appointment of michel barnier across the channel? stay with

us. welcome back. the deputy leader of reform uk and the mp for

boston and skegness, richard tice, joins me in the studio. >> good morning. good morning to you. lovely to see you. great to be with you. >> you've got a bee in your bonnet about this vat on private school fees. you want to. are you launching a legal. >> no. so i indicated back in may that this ridiculous policy would end up in the courts. and sure enough, that's where it's heading. quite rightly , by some heading. quite rightly, by some very significant parent groups that are emerging. and in the papers today, it's confirmed the first case of what will be many cases has written to the chancellor, to the treasury, and thatis chancellor, to the treasury, and that is a parent who has an autistic child and the issue with send children is really significant. there are about 110,000 special needs children, special education needs children who are in independent schools , who are in independent schools, of whom about 100,000 don't get any education or health and care plan . therefore, they're not plan. therefore, they're not exempt from this vat policy. i suspect half of them are going to have to go back into the

state system. that is, there aren't the places in the state system, which means these children, phillipson insists there are six. there are not 50,000 i have. this is nonsense. ihave 50,000 i have. this is nonsense. i have hundreds of people emailing me. is she saying she is lying? i'm afraid she's not telling the truth. i've got loads of people emailing me saying the state school locally has said they haven't got any room in their class sizes. there's no room for sending for special education needs children. this is a catastrophe waiting to happen, and i think the government is going to be tied up in knots with legal cases. it's discriminatory. it's damaging the education of those children. >> are they planning to sue then? it's discrimination rights. >> it's a breach of the human rights and the ability for to have a proper education because because there aren't the special education needs places in the state system. they're saying we can't accommodate you, which means that you have to go into a mainstream school, which means your education, the education of your education, the education of your child is clearly damaged. and that's very serious breach of human rights act case or a echr thing. it'll end up at the echr thing. it'll end up at the echr and well, there's a

wonderful irony. if you can't beat them, join them. >> wouldn't it be marvellous if you like it when it's convenient to you? >> well, so does everybody, camilla. even you. but the irony of the recourse to apply for the echr potentially ruling that it's discriminatory, and then starmer having to abide by the echr that he loves so much, that's where this could well go. there's many other elements of discrimination. this one will run and run. >> you're not just saying this because you're a private school boy with once with kids at private schools, are you? >> i'm saying this because education is the fundament. it's the most, most important human right. it's the original charitable purpose and the discrimination element of it. how can you discriminate against children from sort of 7 to 18? but then the elitist universities, they're not going to have vat put on their fees . to have vat put on their fees. that's discriminatory too. i promise you, this is going to run and run in the courts. >> we just had lucy frazer in the studio. did you manage to catch that when you were? i did catch that when you were? i did catch it, yes. i just thought it was interesting what she was saying about ofcom and bbc bias. >> yes. i mean, it is a view.

well my view is that ofcom, frankly, is not fit for purpose and its treatment of other channels such as gb news, compared to the way that it sort of, that it mollycoddles the bbc and you highlighted it there , and you highlighted it there, the unfairness of the system, as lucy said , that the bbc can lucy said, that the bbc can basically self—regulate itself on behalf of ofcom. and so surprise, surprise, it behaves as it does. we all knew that it was clearly biased in its reporting of the horrific war in the middle east. and yeah, i think that ofcom has got some serious questions to answer at the very least, ofcom should directly respond to complaints about the bbc and the way they treat gb news and people like talk tv. >> devil's advocate on this as a journalist rather than a politician, you know, ofcom has expressed concerns that people like you and people like nigel might come on a channel and start campaigning, but they didn't express any concerns about david lammy. >> for example, a labour mp on lbc. so no longer there. if you're going to be in office.

but if you're going to be a regulator, you've got to deal with a fair and just and equal hand are they patently haven't done that. >> all right . we need to get >> all right. we need to get through quite a few questions in not very much time. you know, the drill michel barnier becoming french pm. i bet you're delighted about that. >> honestly. i mean, just extraordinary. >> what do you think that's going to make life difficult for reform particularly? >> no, it'll make life, i tell you. it'll make life difficult for keir starmer, who wants to cosy up to the eu. and michel barnier will be as difficult and demanding as he was under the conservative government. and i think keir starmer will find that if he wants to reset the relationship, not that it needs resetting by the way, then i think he'll find that he's going to have he'll be literally legged over on anything he wants, and the risk is that we end up with freedom of movement through the back door. and this idea that he wants freedom of movement for young people up to 30. that was the whole freedom of movement programme. that means basically opening the doors to more mass immigration,

which suppresses british wages. >> are you familiar with these afd co—leaders? tino trappola and alice weidel, who have risen up in germany, being described as the far right? i mean, no , i as the far right? i mean, no, i mean, i'm not familiar with them at all. >> but the reality is that if you don't deliver for your people as a political class and you lie about important things like immigration, you pretend it's not an issue. you say all will be fine. and actually it's not. and it suppresses wages. don't be surprised if people then vote for someone else. and that's the reason that so many 4.1 million people voted for reform because they realise we're getting poorer. our quality of life is getting worse. woi'se. >> worse. >> quick word on the tory leadership race. if a righty ends up leading the tory party and actually restores it to its thatcherite roots, somebody like kemi badenoch, arguably robert jenrick, who's been on a journey from romania to apparently hard right eurosceptic, he might as well carry on the journey to

reform. well, he could do that. but isn't that problematic for you and nigel? because if you are up against a righty, a proper not at all throated writing, the truth is at the helm of the conservatives. what's the point in voting reform the reality? >> you can't trust a word they say . i mean depher kemi say. i mean depher kemi badenoch. this week in an article she wrote, sort of trying to be the tough person. the reality is tough. >> what do you mean? >> what do you mean? >> she was talking. talking tough on china and zero net two months ago. she wasn't saying any of this stuff. well, she did rail against a few things. like she didn't rail against china. she didn't rail against net zero all of a sudden because of what reform is standing for, she's basically coming to our turf. you can't trust what these people say coming to your turf. >> talk about suella braverman defecting. have you had conversations with the former home secretary as you well know? >> i don't give a running commentary on any discussions. no, i won't, i'm not going to because i want people, i want people, i want people to trust are you having conversations ? i are you having conversations? i don't i don't comment, i don't comment on any discussions, all sorts of things i enjoy. i enjoy meeting and talking to the

conservatives in and around the chamber, trying to get them in the reform camp. i'm not giving a running commentary on chats we have in and around the chamber, but they're very friendly to me. >> coy, very friendly. gb news everybody, lovely to see you. nice. love to boston and skegness. coming up next, we're going to be speaking to the former conservative party treasurer and peer, lord farmer. he's got some interesting things to say about the arms embargo to israel and the importance of family. stay tuned for that

welcome back. conservative peer and former conservative party treasurer and gb news board member lord farmer joins treasurer and gb news board member lord farmerjoins me in member lord farmer joins me in the studio now. lovely to see you. >> i should just correct you there, camilla. lovely to see you. i'm not a board member. >> you're not a board member. >> you're not a board member. >> my son is. >> my son is. >> your son is. >> my son is. >> your son is . we like to say

>> your son is. we like to say that just in the interests of transparency. exactly, can you tell me why you are so concerned about david lammy's decision making on arms to israel? because you've sort of made hints that you think that there's a degree of risk and harm to british jews because of that decision. is that right? yes. >> well, i've, i recently made a statement on my position on anti—semitism and actually on the israel , anti—semitism and actually on the israel, hamas war. and frankly, to try and cut it short, i think anti—semitism in this country has been inching upwards the whole time. and if you ask me, it's become mainstream. i mean, we see it today in, in the news about the bbc and their unbalanced broadcasting on on the conflict . broadcasting on on the conflict. so there is this government announcement of , having an arms announcement of, having an arms embargo on, on certain arms to

israel at a time when you just had six hostages brutally murdered. yes. and israel, in mourning their families in mourning. i mean, timing wasn't brilliant. >> so are you worried that that might spark more anti—semitism? >> well, it's just part of this movement. i mean, i recommend a book nobody reads it for long. it's called the diary of victor klemperer. and he was a professor of romantic languages, medieval languages in dresden university, married to a non—jew in germany. and he wrote this diary. and from 1930 onwards it's called i shall bear witness. and then he wrote one to the bitter end, and it's a very, very interesting story. it's along with anne frank, but much more detailed. and it just very gradual rise of anti—semitism every day, little messages in the, you know, the bakers shop or something like this, a restriction here. he

was, he was he had a non—jewish wife, which actually kept him from the transports until the bitter end . really. bitter end. really. >> it's interesting you're saying this from the perspective of a committed christian. so you're kind of on the other side of the religious divide to that. what's also interesting, you mentioned your son george, who is on the board. he's married to candace owens . she makes some candace owens. she makes some quite controversial statements about this issue. do you ever come to blows over it with your daughter in law, >> well , we've we've had >> well, we've we've had discussions, but i think i don't like to talk about family relationships on in public. but i did make a public statement because i think felt it was time for me as the christian vice chair of the council for christians and jews, to actually state my position on anti—semitism and on the war. so i mentioned my childhood after the war, the recognition of what had gone on, jewish friends and kindness that i've received all my life. and just seeing this

gradual inching up the whole time, which is very, very dangerous because it unchecked, you know, victor klemperer at the end, he said afterwards, he said, you know, i don't have hatred in my heart for the nazis. you know who i have hatred for? the academics who said nothing. yes. and it's always people christians, other people, non—jews who say nothing. yeah. >> complicit in their silence. >> complicit in their silence. >> we need to say something and it's wrong. anti—semitism is wrong. >> and we've only got limited time. so let's just move on to other matters. can we talk about the tory leadership race because you suggested that iain duncan smith should be interim leader? doesn't look like that's happening anytime soon. no. so who do you quite fancy of the remaining five? >> none of them. oh, i mean, i'm great. no. well, i'm still in my old position. i personally, i think we need a time of reflection. it was a disaster. we've been. we've had too many leaders. we the public sees us as basically. i mean, all the

candidates are part of the old cabinet. they. they would have a very difficult chance. and difficulty in, in actually getting conservative party back up to where it belongs. >> but i went to all of the launches, and the only person that spoke about prioritising family was kemi badenoch. and i thought that would appeal to you because you've said a lot about family and the importance of family and the importance of family in the past and you've actually accused the tories of abandoning the family. and i thought it might be music to your ears to hear one of the candidates talk about it quite robustly. >> it is. it's wonderful. but actually it's not very often that that happens , and none of that that happens, and none of them have a very good track record. the last government didn't. i mean, rishi, to give him his due was the first one that supported when he was in treasury family hubs. that's what i've been pushing. family hubs have now sort of become established, and i hesitate to say it, but it took sort of 13 years for the tories to do something about family hubs and

labour actually appointed a minister for family hubs in 13 days, which whom i met and i think we can work with. >> it's a bit worrying for the conservatives though, isn't it, that a tory peer isn't able to be enthused by any of the candidates? how is a country meant to be enthused if this person is standing to become prime minister come 2029? >> we've got five years of this government. i think there's no doubt about that. why not have two years? reflecting on what is. yes, say something like two years. >> what? so have ids exactly. >> what? so have ids exactly. >> he's good with media. he's. he's brought universal credit in. if we didn't have that at the time of covid, we would have been. >> he wasn't successful as a leader in the party. >> that was 20 years ago. he's learnt a lot. he's very good with media now. >> he's does he want this job though? >> ask him. >> ask him. >> yes, well i have and i think he said no. well, i asked him i'm not a masochist. >> yeah, i think he says no reluctantly. but anyway, i mean, we need a time of reflection to establish what are we as a

party? where are our values? and actually, you mentioned families. actually, in most of the manifestos, it's hardly mentioned there. >> and you've spoken to ids. what has he said to you? >> well, i mean, he said basically what he said to you. no, no, no, no . reluctant. but no, no, no, no. reluctant. but actually one has to, you know, you know what people are like. >> should they bring boris back? no. right. can you please get off the fence on that answer? no, i'm just kidding. i know you've done a lot on prisoner reform, and i wanted to know your reaction to labour's plan, potentially to rent jail space in estonia, where the crime rate is so low they've got empty prisons or near empty prisons . prisons or near empty prisons. what's your thought about that? because alex chalk, the former justice secretary, brought it the idea in for the tories. they never acted on it. now labour want to enact this. yeah. well it's a sensible idea, is it? >> we've got 20% in estonia. >> we've got 20% in estonia. >> we've got 20% in estonia. >> we . >> we. >> we. >> i would be concerned if we sent british prisoners there away from their homes and families. we have 20% foreign nationals in our prisons, 20%.

many of them would be nearer home. if they were in estonia. it would take the pressure off here and actually i would be a good thing. >> okay. all right . and i'm >> okay. all right. and i'm going to just link two topics that we've discussed already together. the number of under 18 arrested for all offences has risen by 9%. that's up 16%. so more children are committing crime. very briefly, lord farmer, why do you think that is? >> well, family breakdown is a big a big area. >> well, family breakdown is a big a big area . fatherlessness. big a big area. fatherlessness. you know , young boys don't have you know, young boys don't have the model gangs. >> final thought. do we need to be more honest about the impact of fatherlessness? yes we do about seconds less. >> yes we do. in fact, i want to set up a national institute for men and boys. frankly, we have lots of emphasis on women and girls. but how about men and boys? >> lord farmer, on that note, thank you very much indeed for your clarity on that issue. i'm going to be back next week at 930. up next, it's the very

brilliant. and by the way, he is wearing a fantastic jacket as even wearing a fantastic jacket as ever, michael portillo with a fun packed hour from 11. don't go anywhere. morning here on gb news. in fact,

>> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo as the country marks the second anniversary of the death of queen elizabeth ii, we send good wishes to her successor , king wishes to her successor, king charles the third, who ascended to the throne two years ago and who, despite being diagnosed with cancer, is fulfilling official engagements and plans. a state visit to australia in october. well, by that time, the conservative party will probably not have concluded its leadership contest. i'll be asking my panel whether the attention given by the media to the first round of voting is merited , given how shrivelled merited, given how shrivelled the tory party now is, it's what

the tory party now is, it's what the candidates say about