labour mp5 didn't even have the backbone to vote, giving starmer the dilemma of to how puni5h the dilemma of to how punish them, plu5 clip5 the dilemma of to how punish them, plu5 clips that will make your blood boil. tonight criminal5 will get out of jail early, card5 popping cork5 on their release. i5 thi5 starmer'5 5en5ible or reckle55 solution to sensible or reckless solution to overcrowded prisons? let me know what you think. the prime minister was in brighton this morning at the trade union congress, spreading more doom and gloom about the economic challenges ahead and warning the unions to some degree not to get their hopes up. but do you believe that he will push back on their demands? and it's the

first presidential debate tonight, as donald trump and kamala harris go head to head. you can watch it live on gb news at 2:30 am. so let's look forward to that debate with my punchy panellists . that's all to punchy panellists. that's all to come in the next hour. first, though, the very latest news headunes though, the very latest news headlines with sophia wenzler. >> bev thank you. good evening . >> bev thank you. good evening. i'm sophia wenzler with your headunes i'm sophia wenzler with your headlines just after 6:00. millions of pensioners will lose winter fuel payments after the conservative motion to stop labour's plan to slash the payments was defeated. >> eight the noes to the left 348. >> a total of 53 labour mp5 abstained on the vote, while labour mp jon trickett was the only rebel. the prime ministers defended the cut, calling it a

tough decision needed to tackle a £22 billion deficit, but critics, including some labour mp5, warned it could force millions of pensioners to choose between heating and eating. despite the backlash, the government insists the cuts are necessary to secure the foundations of the economy . now foundations of the economy. now former cabinet minister mel stride has been knocked out of the conservative leadership race after receiving just 16 votes. the former immigration minister, robert jenrick, finished top with 33 votes, with kemi badenoch second on 28 votes, while james cleverly and tom tugendhat both got 21 votes each from tory mp5 . tugendhat both got 21 votes each from tory mp5. in other tugendhat both got 21 votes each from tory mp5 . in other news, from tory mp5. in other news, thousands of prisoners could be placed in taxpayer funded hotels as more than 1700 inmates walk free today in an effort to cut overcrowding in jails. the justice secretary says probation staff have been authorised to use budget hotels if needed, after concerns were raised about

reoffending because some inmates are unprepared and face homelessness . shabana are unprepared and face homelessness. shabana mahmood insists the early release scheme is temporary, giving the government time to reform the prison system. >> if we had not done this , we >> if we had not done this, we faced courts unable to hold trials , police unable to make trials, police unable to make arrests and a total breakdown of law and order. this is not the long term solution. there is more that we must do. but it was the necessary first step that we had to take following the disgraceful dereliction of duty by the previous government . by the previous government. >> now america's top diplomats confirmed iran has sent short range ballistic missiles to russia and predicts they will be used in ukraine within weeks. antony blinken gave the warning after strategic talks with the foreign secretary in london aimed at boosting the special relationship between the two nations. speaking alongside david lammy, mr blinken described the development as a threat to all of europe. mr lammy echoed his concerns,

calling the missile supply a significant escalation , and significant escalation, and announced a joint trip to ukraine with mr blinken later this week. in other news, sir keir starmer has warned the economic challenges will shape future pay deals and that tough decisions lie ahead. as he took to the stage at the trades union congress as the first prime minister to address the tuc since gordon brown. he thanked those who ended the burden of tory rule in this year's general election . but he warned that election. but he warned that rebuilding britain will be a difficult long term task, pointing to a £22 billion black hole left by the conservatives. meanwhile, 31 people have been charged over last year's cardiff riots, sparked by the deaths of teenagers kyrees sullivan and harvey evans. the two boys died in a crash involving an e—bike after being followed by a police vehicle. 27 face charges of riot, while four are charged with causing or threatening criminal damage. the defendants,

aged between 15 and 53, are expected to appear at cardiff magistrates court in the coming weeks . a coroner has ruled that weeks. a coroner has ruled that there is no clear link between there is no clear link between the appearance of a guest on the jeremy kyle show and the cause of his death. 63 year old steve dymond was found dead at his home in portsmouth in may 2019. seven days after taking part in the show . seven days after taking part in the show. hampshire seven days after taking part in the show . hampshire coroner the show. hampshire coroner jason pegg said there was an absence of reliable evidence that the events on the show directly led to his death . with directly led to his death. with just eight weeks to go before the us election , republican the us election, republican candidate donald trump and democratic vice president kamala harris are set to face off in their first and only debate tonight. both candidates are neck and neck in key battleground states, but the debate could be critical for harris, as polls suggest many voters still don't know much about her. trump's team is urging him to focus on immigration and inflation, while harris is expected to attack the

former president's record on abortion and the capitol riots. and you can watch all the action live overnight here on gb news with america decides trump versus harris starting at 2 am. and for private astronauts have launched into space on a spacex rocket kicking off the polaris dawn mission . the five day dawn mission. the five day journey will test new spacesuits and feature the first private space walk with astronauts tethered to a spacecraft in the mission's riskiest manoeuvre so far. the mission marks a significant step in private space exploration, taking the crew further from earth than anyone since the apollo moon program . those are the latest gb program. those are the latest gb news headlines. now it's back to bev turner for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts .

slash alerts. >> very good evening. welcome to dewbs& co with me bev turner. this week, while michelle takes a well—earned break, joining me my panel until 7:00. director of the popular conservatives mark littlewood, evening mark and former labour mp steve mccabe. good to see you steve. we all sat down here today, didn't we, and went, it's been a busy day. there's been a lot of politics going on. we're going to dive into it in just a moment. i want you to dive into it as well. gbnews.com/yoursay but hot off the press, of course. i want to talk about the fact that the former work and pensions secretary, mel stride, has been eliminated from the tory leadership race, just today, robert jenrick came out on top with 33 votes. kemi badenoch close behind on 28. what's going to happen, mark? well it's actually it's still pretty tight. >> i think a lot of people actually thought that mel stride would be the first out. so no real surprise he's the second out, each of the candidates, apart from james cleverly, who was seen to do rather well in the first round, he's picked up

no extra votes. so the patel vote has gone elsewhere. it could be any two from those four. we're going to have this jamboree party conference where these four will be trying to curry favour. crucially amongst those 16 mel stride supporters who now need to find a new home. but when we get down to two, it goes to the party membership. i think you'd have to say robert jenrick is probably going to make those two. he's on 32 votes and 41 would absolutely guarantee that you make the last two, but it could be any one of the other three. and they've now got to have half an eye on appealing to the party grassroots. this battle moves out of the tea rooms in the house of commons, moves out of the swi house of commons, moves out of the sw1 postcode , and it's now the sw1 postcode, and it's now going to be down to the 150,000 tory members. >> steve. but it has to go a little bit more to the right, perhaps, you might say the old fashioned political right, with whom robert jenrick is probably the most likely to wear that crown. do you think? >> i think it's quite likely. that's where the tory party will end up. but you have to

remember, it took them three leaders until they resolved that last time they were out of office. so tilting that way doesn't necessarily mean it will be the solution to their problems. >> okay. which one do you think is the best candidate? i mean, you guys have got the massive majority going to be there for at least for four years or so. >> probably the best candidate will actually, i think mill street was a really decent guy, but i suspect that the party membership, if they're given the choice, will go for badenoch. do you? >> okay. right, right . we've got >> okay. right, right. we've got to move on to the big the big story though today, of course, is that mp5 have voted to cut the winter fuel allowance. it's a plan criticised by many of the mp5 in parliament today. >> this government have been telling pensioners they didn't want to do this, but tough financial decisions must be made . financial decisions must be made. but we all know that's poppycock. that wasn't the government's message to the already highly paid trade drivers when they met them.

money was no object. have as much as you want. the public are not as stupid as this government think they are , as well as the think they are, as well as the esther mcvey. >> they're of course, as well as the tory backlash, 53 labour mp5 abstained from voting, including the mother of the house, diane abbott, and cabinet minister hilary benn, with one labour mp, jon trickett , my new hero, jon trickett, my new hero, voting against the government, saying that he will sleep well tonight defending his constituents. and there we go. there's my little tribute to jon trickett. this comes as the party's own research has revealed that almost 4000 pensioners could die if the payments are scrapped. steve, let me come to you. first of all, do you think sir keir starmer, when he decided he was going to go ahead with this, had anyidea going to go ahead with this, had any idea what a ferrari would cause amongst the public and even amongst a lot of traditional labour voters, the elderly, labour voters ? elderly, labour voters? >> well, i think he probably did know there would be some big

reaction. some of it may be genuine, some of it i think is a bit confected. if i'm really truthful with you. to be honest, i don't know why labour mp5 are focusing so much on this and their own side. i mean, they should be going after the energy supply companies and saying, why don't we reduce or scrap the standing charge ? that's about standing charge? that's about the same as the winter fuel allowance. that's virtually an unearned profit, and it's not coming from the taxpayer. it's coming from the taxpayer. it's coming from the profits that the energy companies are. >> but i really fear with with keir starmer, you see he won't go after the big corporations. he just won't go after them. and all of this talk today at the tuc, we're going to come on to this in just a minute. about the fact that he's there for the working people i'm seeing. no evidence of that. mark. >> well, i suppose you can say train drivers work and pensioners typically don't. and he's given a lot of money to train drivers and is clawing that back from pensioners. look, i want to be as fair as i can be about this. i think labour has

gone about it in a pretty bad way. i think this could easily have been in their election manifesto. i don't buy the £22 billion black hole nonsense. the books were open. the truth is, the black hole in the united kingdom isn't £22 billion. it's about £7 trillion. if you look at our total national debt and all of our liabilities, complaining about 22 billion is a bit like being worried that your house is burning down because you've got a £5 note behind the sofa. it's a tiny, tiny rounding error. >> why do they use that figure? because i've had that same thought. i thought, well, it's just nonsense, really. it's sort of monopoly money. >> it sounds like a colossal amount, but it is a rounding error on a spreadsheet, given how, i mean, the government spends what, north of £1 trillion a year, that's £1,000 billion a year is government expenditure. and what are we spending on interest at the moment on our debt? that's now that's now bigger than the education budget. but that that i mean those of a free market bent like me, fiscal hawks like me warned this would happen. we, the government, has spent more than it's brought in in tax revenue every year. for now ,

revenue every year. for now, nearly a quarter of a century. now, you can do that. but at the end of that period, it's a bit like not paying your credit card debt. you have huge interest payments to pay . so look, payments to pay. so look, i think a challenge for conservatives is , yeah, by all conservatives is, yeah, by all means oppose this. you might say it's being badly done, but government expenditure is going to have to fall and fall quite radically. and if you want to protect the winter fuel allowance for sake of argument, you're going to have to find cuts elsewhere. you can't prioritise every element of government expenditure. it's got to come down. that's not an ideological point, it's just a matter of maths. >> so steve, this is just tinkering around really with the numbers and doing it whilst making keir starmer, making himself and the party really unpopular , because it seems that unpopular, because it seems that when they when they want the money, they can find it. so we're going to be spending however many hundreds of billions, it probably will end up in the trillions. but on gb energy, the green ambition to fuel the country . and yet it fuel the country. and yet it seems like he doesn't really

care about old people in their houses this winter. and this is laboun houses this winter. and this is labour. you're meant to be the kind lot. >> well of course the government's going to implement the triple lock. the pensioners are one of the fastest gaining groups in society . that's just are one of the fastest gaining groups in society. that's just a fact. gb energy i think, is probably one of the smartest things this government's going to do. and i think those who remember the british national oil corporation will remember just how well labour did that in the past under a previous labour government. so i don't buy that argument at all. >> imagine being a pensioner this winter. can't you? and thinking, i'm not going to turn on the radiator, and knowing that all of that money is found for a green energy project, which is not going to benefit, designed to lower bills , amongst designed to lower bills, amongst other things. >> but as i say, we should go after the supply companies. there's no reason why these pensioners should be put in this position. none whatsoever. and you know, if people were really

worried about it, they should be out there arguing for that. >> now, can we just talk a bit about as well, what sir keir starmer does now with these mp5 who abstained? >> well, i was just, just before coming on air, bev, i was looking through who are these 53? i5 looking through who are these 53? is this some sort of rebellion from, i don't know, some faction of the party? the first time i saw one was ill people who like pensioners. well, or an identifiable organised rebellion. but the first time i saw one was ill and apologised. that one was one, one was ill, one was away in ghana or something. >> one was at the dentist. >> one was at the dentist. >> well , one >> one was at the dentist. >> well, one was at the dentist. so i don't know whether these are genuine excuses or whether these people have found a good reason to absent themselves. it is on a retail basis, a very easy stick to hit them with. i've already seen some conservative things going around in individual constituencies, saying your local labour mp has voted to remove winter fuel allowance from 13,000 households. but as i say on the macro, i disagree with steve about the profitability of energy companies. they're not super profitable compared to

anywhere else, but i would welcome a drive to get energy pnces welcome a drive to get energy prices down rather than allowing energy to become more and more expensive. and then working out whether we can afford to subsidise it, it would be better actually to have a plan. and we've had no energy strategy for 20 or 30 years, you know, are we going to allow small modular nuclear reactors? i think we should get on with fracking and shale gas. and if you don't take the moves to put energy prices down, and if we just get the pnces down, and if we just get the prices down to something like american levels much cheaper in american levels much cheaper in america energy, then you wouldn't have this problem of people worth saying. bev, as well. if you can target this properly and i'm not sure governments ever can, but if you can, 27% of pensioner households are millionaire households now, they don't need 3 or £400. so but it is often very difficult to get. that means testing right. >> why is it so difficult. >> why is it so difficult. >> well because what are you measuring? how many forms do you need to fill in? i think for pension credit. isn't it 243 questions. so people just give up on it. they don't know

whether they're liable for it. generally speaking, i like the tax system to be the means testing that if you're rich, you pay testing that if you're rich, you pay more tax. if you're poor, you pay more tax. if you're poor, you pay, pay more tax. if you're poor, you pay, you pay more tax. if you're poor, you pay, you pay pay more tax. if you're poor, you pay, you pay fewer tax. and to have universal benefits that seems the easier way. otherwise you're asking people, what do you're asking people, what do you start asking them? you know, how big is your house? how small is your house? how big is your mortgage? how much have you got? in isas, it comes becomes complicated. >> one of the one of the criteria, for steve, whether you'd get this winter fuel allowance is that you won't qualify for pension credit if you have £10,000 of savings. now some people watch this and go, well, that's a huge amount of money. you should be spending that on your energy bill. if you're a pensioner and you want to have one eye on maybe social care or god forbid, leaving something to your grandchildren, £10,000 is not going to go very far . but what message does it far. but what message does it give people for keir starmer to say, well, make sure you've not got £10,000 by the time you get to your 805, because at that point you're on your own. >> well, of course, whatever you draw the line, wherever you put the threshold for any kind of welfare benefit, there are always people just over that line who lose out. and that's

the group you're talking about. i think there is an argument for reviewing where the level is for pension credit. and more importantly, we should simplify the method. there's about a million pensioners entitled to don't get it. we should make it easier for those people to have it. now, as much as worry about people who are just over the limit, how would you voted today, steve, if you were in there? i would have voted for it because i actually think that the government did signal quite clearly that it was one of the changes they thought was necessary , because it was necessary, because it was a benefit that was going to too many people who weren't using it for the purposes for which it was intended. >> but you think they've got the level wrong. the qualification level? >> well, no. i think pension credit could be there could be an argument for looking at where you set the level. but wherever you set the level. but wherever you set the level. but wherever you set it, anyone who's just overit you set it, anyone who's just over it is going to be dissatisfied. >> yeah. but is it £13,000? i think you have to . that's that's

think you have to. that's that's in terms of what you live off as a pensioner. that's that's nothing in 2024. mark. that's. >> no it's not. but again i mean look at flipping a jar of coffee at the moment in the supermarket is £7. no that's right. you know definitely. and you know i don't want to sound flippant about this at all, but the point i want to reiterate is probably 30 or 40 years ago, a couple of generations ago, it was almost universally true that pensioners were poor. okay. there were a few billionaires around . that few billionaires around. that ain't true any more. i mean, that's a good chunk of pensioners are poor, but a good chunk of them are very, very well off. >> is that just because of their property, you mean? >> no, not necessarily because of their property. they they they've saved they're getting good pensions. they've saved they're getting good pensions . probably. you're good pensions. probably. you're looking at my parents generation being the last who had defined benefit pensions so that, you know , that's great. they're know, that's great. they're going on holidays . so we going on holidays. so we shouldn't be flippant about poverty. it really exists and it certainly exists in the in the older cohort. but they probably tried and tested view of 40

years ago that if you're over the age of 70, you're poor, that no longer stands. that's just not the case. >> okay. i think you to just defend starmer a little bit here. the increase in the state pension is going to be about £428. absolutely. so hopefully for those people that need it. yeah. >> and that's the other thing. i mean steve and i might agree on simplifying the system here. i'd wrap all these benefits into one. i mean, why not just if there is a winter fuel allowance, just whack it into the state pension. we still have. i'm told in christmas week you get an extra tenner. this was brought in by ted heath 50 years ago. this is crazy stuff. have a state pension . why a have a state pension. why a winter fuel allowance? what else? a grocery allowance, a clothing allowance? i mean, wrap it into the single state pension and pay that. >> simplify it, >> simplify it, >> we would agree on that. yeah, humpty has said at home i'm not sure it's his real name, >> we've got winter pressure on the nhs as it is so well done labour for increasing the likelihood of pensioners being admitted to hospitals with

respiratory related illnesses this winter. it's also worth pointing out, steve, that some labour research from 2017 found that 4000 pensioners could die if this winter fuel payment was taken off them. it's what keir starmer, how is he ignoring that now? >> well, i mean we have to identify who those 4000 people are and what other measures are going to be used to help and support them. there's always a risk in their various figures produced for every winter period that older people will. there's a high an increase in deaths amongst elderly people and it's attributed to a variety of things. it depends what other measures we're using. and as you've just pointed out, the triple lock means there's going to be a £400 increase in the pension and that triple lock has got to end at some point. >> if we keep the triple lock forever, at some point the state pension will be bigger than the average salary. at some point it's got to end right. >> and at this point we have to take a quick break. so in just a moment, 1700 prisoners or

thereabouts were released today in a bid ease overcrowding. is that goodidea good idea or completely reckless? don't

good evening. welcome back to dewbs& co. it's me. bev turner. this week while michelle is on a holiday, so keeping me company until seven. mark littlewood , until seven. mark littlewood, director of popular conservatives, and steve mccabe, former labour mp, now about this very moment, there are around 1700 more people sitting down to tea at their own kitchen table tonight. 24 hours ago they were lining up with a tray at her majesty's. his majesty's pleasure. so say hello to your new neighbours . new neighbours. >> what would you say to some of the victims that are saying you've not served your full time? >> i think it's a difficult one because. right i don't think anyone really gets a lot out of prison. you get get some people. so this is my first time, and then you get other people who

are in and in and in, in, in and in, and they're not. you don't get anything productive from being in. i've spent the last near enough two years just in my cell. so i've not gained anything from it. i tried to get on an open uni course and i couldn't, so it's i think in here it's hard to rehabilitate. so no one's winning. at the end of the day. >> everyone's been happy today. i'm sure coming out though isn't it. yeah. there's been a lot of happy people faces in there. yeah, yeah, yeah. >> so you're, you're grateful to labour and you're grateful to the 100%. >> yeah. labour seat. i'm laboun >> yeah. labour seat. i'm labour. vote labour all my life. yeah. labour's labour's one. >> and i don't like it in there. but the staff have looked after me and i have bad mental health problems, so they didn't put me in a double cell. the rats were massive . they. yeah. they need massive. they. yeah. they need the hygiene in there needs to be better . better. >> and for some criminals it was time to get the cheap fizz out .

time to get the cheap fizz out. my time to get the cheap fizz out. my god told me in the cup last week they didn't have me back. >> i got the bad news last week. i'm still trying to get it on tv. she wanted a brain. i got her shani louk. >> i get . >> i get. >> i get. >> so if you're listening on the radio, that was a load of wrong'uns . really, guys in wrong'uns. really, guys in hoodies shouldn't judge the clothing. right, mark? call me old fashioned . popping champagne old fashioned. popping champagne corks outside of wandsworth prison today, let me come to you, steve, because i don't know how. keir starmer again thinks thatis how. keir starmer again thinks that is going to land well with the public. those images were always going to happen. >> yeah, it's pretty sickening . >> yeah, it's pretty sickening. i'm not going to pretend otherwise. there isn't much choice, though. i mean, it's pretty obvious that our prison system is on the verge of

collapse. we know now that the government realised that the previous government realised that before the election, but chose to play it down. these are emergency and temporary measures and they're fraught with danger. but they've got to be taken . but they've got to be taken. otherwise the whole system is going to fall apart. there's about a thousand free cells now. >> tonight, mark. so you might say, well, that's exactly what this was intended to do to free up space for lots more space to lock people up, for saying bad things on twitter , things on twitter, >> 50, things on twitter, >> so, look, i have got some sympathy here. the government, this is something that the government is inherited . you're government is inherited. you're right, bev, it's a terrible look. i mean, the prime minister will not want that footage of rhiannon jones being let out. uncorking champagne and saying, hurrah! i'm going to vote labour for the rest of my life. not obviously what you'd put in a party election like . party election like. >> it's like. it's like if you sat down and you did a sort of in the thick of it brainstorm, what would be the worst possible labour government for a new

government? it would be that , yeah. >> i mean, the thing to look and we're bound to find amongst these 1700 who have been released, we're bound now to find stories of things very quickly going wrong. you know, it's statistically it's a matter of time, probably minutes before one of them's arrested for something just because of the quantity of it. but, look, i would say this. i think the real fundamental problem with the prison system and the justice system, and there are lots of them, is we lock up too many people for relatively minor, non—violent offences. and once you've been inside the chance that you're going to reoffend and fall into a life of crime is high. and i think we don't lock up the real ones for long enough. so i want us to sort of get away from jail sentences of three months, six months, 12 months. i think if you've done something that's worthy of that sort of punishment, we need to find alternative punishment. but if you're a murderer or an armed robber or a rapist or a child molester, i want you for in a much, much longer stretch. >> the gentleman we saw in the clip there who said, i have serious mental health problems, and he was talking about the

rats in the prison. i interviewed on britain's newsroom this morning, a former prison guard, and she said of him, she said, i look at him and i think that man should probably never have been in prison anyway. there should have been a facility to help people like that. it's so wrong, steve, isn't it, that we take these bad people and we don't release them as good people? that has got to surely be the point of the prison service. >> well, i think when the prisons are overloaded, then it is completely unrealistic to expect there's going to be any reform programme. that's why the numbers have got to come down. and i agree we should be clear about the people who are going the right people who are committing serious offences. they should go and we should look at other alternatives . but look at other alternatives. but i mean, for other alternatives to work, they've got to be enforced. the probation service is in immense difficulty at the moment , and is in immense difficulty at the moment, and people don't have faith in community sentences. so i mean, it's not just the prisons that have got to be

fixed. it is the entire justice system and it is in the worst state i can recall. i once worked with young offenders many years ago now, but i can't remember anything like this in the past. >> what is it? why have subsequent governments over the decades not invested more in rehabilitative care? mark, is it just because it doesn't land well on the front of a newspaper? if you know you see prisoners in cells with playstations and i'm not one of those people who thinks we should treat prisoners badly, i think we should do everything we can for all the innocent people out there to rehabilitate as much as possible, give them self—esteem, give them skills, give them education, make sure they can read and write. give them medication if they need it. sort out their mental health. it's an opportunity that the state is wasting. >> no, that's fair enough. i mean, i totally know how good it is for rehabilitation to give somebody a playstation in which they can play games in which they're machine gunning down people. it's not obviously the first element of a rehabilitative programme, but i'd rather i'm going to echo

steve's point a bit. i think those who are likely susceptible to that rehabilitation probably shouldn't be inside in the first place. i mean, i'm making too much of a black and white grade there, but if you're able to turn somebody's life around as they've as they've got into minimal verging onto serious trouble, that's probably where rehab kicks in. and as far as i'm aware, really, all the government's all over the world, all over my lifetime have talked about, well , the point of prison about, well, the point of prison is you taking the bad and you rehabilitate them and they leave as good. and no one's really ever made that. no prisons are basically there for the safety of the public. that for as long as these bad people are not on the streets, they're not going to knife you, burgle you, murder you or the rest of it. that some of it you get some rehab. but it's not a very efficient way of doing it. so i love the concept. if you can point to me any example of that ever having really worked anywhere in the world, i'd be interested to hear it. so i don't think it's just a matter of underinvestment. i think it's that we've just got the whole system wrong. if you can be rehabilitated, let's try

and make sure you're not locked up. >> the conditions, as far as we know and there have been lots of organisations talking today of coming out and saying how the conditions in prisons are terrible. and by that they don't just mean unsanitary. like that gentleman was talking about having massive rats running around. they're just saying we are. they are violent. they are bored. you know, people aren't coming out of prison fit and well and healthy mentally, physically. that's how i think we should be turning people out. if starmer had done this today, steve and i think alongside had said, i'm going to invest in making our prisons more, more likely to rehabilitate. i think it would have looked better with the public. or am i reading that? am i reading the room completely wrong? there like that's going to be stage two. if he's stage one is make some space. stage two fix the. well, i think stage two is to try and fix the prison and the judicial system, >> i mean, it's a bit rich to say we should be seeing we're letting them out in a crisis, and we're going to invest when

there's all these other arguments about what else we should or shouldn't invest in. and if you're living in a rat infested property with your two kids, you wouldn't be too keen to hear that at the moment. so, i mean, i think , yes, there has i mean, i think, yes, there has to be a stage two. i expect a stage two. and the risk of sounding just like keir starmer, i've got to say it will take a bit of time. you know, they've beenin bit of time. you know, they've been in power for about 70 odd days and they're coming off the back of 14 years. >> yeah . >> yeah. >> yeah. >> okay. right. keep your thoughts coming this evening gbnews.com/yoursay. but still to come as the prime minister is greeted with a very long standing ovation at the tuc congress this morning. we're going to be debating. is he a soft touch on the unions? don't anywhere

good evening. it's bev in for michelle this week. mark

littlewood is still here. and also steve mccabe now. sir keir starmer became the first prime minister to address the tuc congress since gordon brown today. it's a long time ago, wasn't it, mark? >> well, a generation ago you were 17 then. >> yeah. he was met with he was met with a standing ovation. there you go. thank you . i mean, there you go. thank you. i mean, ihave there you go. thank you. i mean, i have to say we covered that this morning on britain's newsroom. and andrew pierce was there and he certainly didn't make out that he had a standing ovation or that he was particularly warmly welcomed in the room. but maybe andrew pierce would say that the prime minister warned that tough decisions lie ahead. >> but i do have to make clear from a place of respect that this government will not risk its mandate for economic stability under any circumstances. and with tough decisions on the horizon, pay will inevitably be shaped by that. will inevitably be shaped by that . i owe you that candour

will inevitably be shaped by that. i owe you that candour. >> there is sir keir starmer perfecting his undertaker chic, which he does so well. he warned that tough decisions lie ahead . that tough decisions lie ahead. >> i don't believe for one moment that most of those who voted reform at the last election, okay, so that was obviously paul novak, who is a general secretary of the tuc is starmer a soft touch on the unions? >> we're going to talk about what paul novak said yesterday because it was, in fact, let's talk about that, steve, first of all, because it was a nasty speech, wasn't it? it was kind of vindictive. he threw a lot of mud at nigel farage. jacob rees—mogg. it was very personal. and i'm all for the labour party being self—congratulatory at the moment. great. well done. you did. you did well. you got 34% of the votes. excellent but it was sort of it was quite nasty and vindictive. i thought, was sort of it was quite nasty and vindictive. i thought , well, and vindictive. i thought, well, when people see that sort of thing, to me it's as if i've never heard a nasty and vindictive speech at a tory

party conference. >> so, you know, i asked you to cast your mind back like they've worn. >> i get it, if you're if you're in in opposition and you're trying to win, i understand that mudslinging, but they need to have dignity now. they can carry this success off with some level of well, i think he was talking to his delegates. >> he probably wasn't even conscious that he was on the tv at the moment. he was saying he was given a bit of raw meat to his delegates. the one person who won't be distressed about this will be nigel farage. i can guarantee it. so i don't really think that's true. >> should be that he should defend himself. i mean , this in defend himself. i mean, this in the kindest way for nigel farage is like one of those baddie monsters in a b movie that the more you throw it in, the stronger he gets. >> he just sort of soaks up the energy. so i don't think those sort of ad hominem attacks actually land particularly well. maybe it goes down well in the hall, but he should have known he was on telly, by the way, he's the general secretary of the tuc. these are public comments he was conscious of that he might have thought it wouldn't have been on telly. so

much. and as he said something so bold, but it is tone deaf to those who would consider themselves to be the working people that they're talking about, who might have voted labour and now appeal to reform you know what? i think this could end up being quite a problem for the labour party amongst working class people who perhaps have some traditional or conservative or right of centre views, but who would traditionally be from communities that vote labour. yeah, a good chunk of that is in the reform vote. there's no doubt that the reform party, who took a big chunk of the tory vote, are now going after labour working class areas. and if the broad response of the labour movement is that anybody who does that is far right, or a fascist or a putin apologist or or a nazi, i think they will bleed votes to reform pretty fast. so that doesn't mean you need to be flattering to nigel farage. but i think you've got to understand why so many people voted for that party with perfectly good intent. was that a tough audience for starmer today? >> there. do you think , because >> there. do you think, because he did know he was on the telly, unlike paul novak , he was unlike paul novak, he was talking to the public as well as

the room? and i personally thought even though it's very dour, thought even though it's very dour , isn't it? i've said it dour, isn't it? i've said it before, but you can divide people into radiators and drains, you know what i mean? like you spend time with someone, you come away feeling warm and full of energy as a radiator, or you can spend it with drains and you come away feeling absolutely knackered. and starmer has that effect on me. i want him to cheer me up a little bit. steve give him time, give him time. >> look, i don't think it was a particularly tough audience for him today. and so he was taking advantage of the opportunity to say some of the things that he felt had to be said. but, you know, beware the people who are cheering you from the rafters, because that's often short lived praise. and the reality is the trade union movement is an important part of the labour party movement, but it's a part where there is often conflict and difficulty and it's almost certain that as things progress for a labour government, there will be conflict and difficulty. so keir was entitled to enjoy a little bit of gentle applause today. but i don't think he'll

be too carried away. i don't think he would have been too radiated by either, to be perfectly honest. >> well, that's probably going to be the easiest wicket he's ever going to bat on as prime minister. he's only a few weeks in. he's given the trade unions everything they asked for in the first few weeks. it's going to get harder for him, not just in front of the tuc audience in future, but in front of any audience. that's about as good as it's going to get for starmer in terms of warmth of audience, given the kind of employment landscape at the moment, mark, where we've got small and medium sized businesses going under at record levels in this country, we have had for about, well, four years at least now. >> and yet you've got all this massive push up of wealth to the massive push up of wealth to the massive transnational corporations. when i was listening to a particularly paul novak speaking yesterday, and i didn't like the tone of it, what he was saying in terms of looking after the working person, i did think we do need some of that, but i don't know how that the trade unions, whether their role is going to change in 2024. and i think actually one of the

great shames over my lifetime about the trade union movement, which i'm not kind of a priori hostile to trade unions, can can provide a very useful function, actually, not just in defending rights, but also making negotiations easier between employers and employees. >> but trade unions now, by and large , are almost exclusively large, are almost exclusively pubuc large, are almost exclusively public sector private sector union membership has collapsed . union membership has collapsed. and that's why you're not heanng and that's why you're not hearing from unions defending the people who are actually in small private sector jobs or even working for major corporations. this is almost exclusively a public sector thing. and if keir starmer is going to say he's going to have to make some tough decisions, i've got some advice to him on how he might make some. is that pay how he might make some. is that pay in the public sector, whether it's the railways, the health service, education should go health service, education should 9° up health service, education should go up as it does in the private sector, with productivity gains . sector, with productivity gains. so if the railways are more efficient, more punctual, cleaner, faster, cheaper, then of course the people working for the railways should get a pay rise. that's how it works in the

private sector. but my worry here is that the public sector unions have been given really a very substantial pay rise, while pubuc very substantial pay rise, while public sector productivity is falling, and the government's got to make it plain that we've got to make it plain that we've got to make it plain that we've got to turn around public sector productivity before pay rises can be given. that's how it works in the rest of the economy. is that right, steve? >> well, public sector reform is part of the equation, and it's certainly something that labour is going to have to progress. and there will be some resistance. but i mean, i think it was wes streeting who made it very clear that it's not just about more employment in the nhs. it's not just about pay rises, it's about reform and change. >> yeah , does he. i just want to >> yeah, does he. i just want to have a look what you're saying at home, actually, let me have a look. everyone who supports labour and the tuc, they seem to be nasty people. you haven't got the monopoly on being nice anymore. the left have you got to give that up now? well, i don't think. >> i don't think the left ever have had a monopoly on thought they did. >> no. >> no. >> thought they, they thought they did.

>> well , it's news to they did. >> well, it's news to me. >> well, it's news to me. >> i don't think look i think everybody in politics and the broader political movements is capable of generating little nasty performances at times. sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're badly misplaced. but i think it's absurd to say that that's the position, the truth is, that was probably a speech that appealed to some people and didn't appeal to some people and didn't appeal to very many others . and you are to very many others. and you are right when you say that the trade union movement is much more than just the people who gather at that, congress or that conference. and, you know , the conference. and, you know, the union leaders need to be mindful of the real issues that are affecting members. and i don't know, too many ordinary trade unionists who are desperate to be on strike. >> i think it's becoming increasingly difficult to work out who labour appeal to. now. i'm not sure who they are. there

for. i know 1700 people who've been let out of prison. >> well, yeah, that should be a few gain votes. >> that's it. really. >> that's it. really. >> they won't be registered to vote no, no, it might not be registered to vote. >> but actually it is an interesting transformation that we're seeing. we are seeing quite a realignment of the old political forces. and labour hasn't made a full transformation, transformation into this. but is today much more like a middle class public sector party than a working class industrial party? there's been a huge it hasn't made that full transformation . but that is full transformation. but that is a big, big change. and you definitely see that in the sort of seats that labour are willing and the seats that they've now struggled in in recent years. >> much more middle class. heartening to the conservative party. and that is why they've had so much difficulty identifying their vote. >> the big issue for both parties, right. >> okay, fellas, still to come ahead of the us presidential debate, head to head tonight a trump versus harris. we're going to be looking forward that. don't go

welcome back. thank you for joining us this evening. it's bev in for michelle. mark littlewood is still here. and also steve mccabe right. the race for the white house moves up a gear tonight. kamala harris and donald trump are going to go face to face in their first and only presidential debate. this evening. right. what what do you make of this, mark? i think she is donald trump's kryptonite. she brings out the worst in him. and you realise what a clever pick she was for the democrats, because he won't be able to remain disciplined talking to her. he's going to he's going to look slightly misogynistic. he's going to look slightly racist. and he's going to let himself down. i think on a personal level, you know what, bev? >> i think that looked like it was probably a pretty fair prediction and analysis. about three weeks ago, she got a bounce. i think this was partly because people were so relieved that joe biden had stepped aside and they didn't really know much about her, it's possible that

she's trump's kryptonite, but then there seems to be an awful lot of things in people that are his kryptonite and bring out the worst in him, i'm not so sure that her problem has been she basically talks word salad . basically talks word salad. she's, insofar as she's done any television. it was one unbelievably underarm interview with cnn. and i think if she doesn't actually come out sounding coherent tonight , there sounding coherent tonight, there might be a lot of people who don't think that donald trump is fit to be president. but there might be an increasing number of people who think that she is not competent to be president. pete, what what do you make of it? >> i think probably also we'll we'll watch this and go, is that really the best they've got in the most powerful nation in the world? >> well, it's the best they've against her. but he's had weeks got now, i think it will be now for people tebest| against her. but he's had weeks now for people tebest they've >> well, it's the best they've got now, i think it will be quite a test for her. i think quite a test for her. i think people don't really know who she people don't really know who she is. i think i agree that the is. i think i agree that the immediate bounce was just the immediate bounce was just the change, and i think there is a change, and i think there is a chance that trump could lose it chance that trump could lose it against her. but he's had weeks against her. but he's had weeks

now for people telling now for people telling him , hey, now for people telling him, hey, look, you've got to calm down. you've got to do this. and i suspect the real analysis will be about what she says, how persuasive she is, how much she says to people, this is a real opportunity for something different. if he stays on policy. >> trump and talks about the border issue on the migration on the southern border, illegal migration. if he talks about the economy and just keeps it on those issues, he should do all right. i just think she's because he's so thin skinned and don't get me wrong, if it was between the two of them, i would want to see him in the white house for not because of his personality, but because of i think on the global stage, i think on the global stage, i think he would do a betterjob, but on team

appalled. and if i was on team trump, the most important thing would be to say, keep your cool, don't ramble. you're completely right. it's border security. a lot of them, although that's partly his base. but it's the economy too. a lot of middle of the road voters just don't feel affluent enough. and usually if the economy is tanking, the incumbent administration pays the price. >> just so, just so we know all our viewers at home and listeners, you can watch this tonight. the first presidential debate live on gb news tom harwood, who i presume is having a little nap as we speak. he's going to be on air throughout the night. america decides trump versus harris live from 2 am. on gb news. thank you gentlemen . on gb news. thank you gentlemen. steve. mark, great to see you. i will be back on britain's newsroom at 930 tomorrow morning, and then i'll be back here tomorrow night as well. but first of all, is nigel. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on gb news .

news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update a cold spell of weather to come through the rest of this week. a particularly cold northerly wind will develop throughout the country overnight tonight and that will bring with it some blustery showers as well. the air is coming from the arctic, hence why it's quite so cold. we've got low pressure up to the north and east of the uk, so that's brought some very windy weather across northeastern areas of scotland , northeastern areas of scotland, through the rest through this afternoon that will move away to the east though overnight. and so it will turn a little bit calmer for these areas, but still quite a cold wind through much of the night and frequent showers across north and western areas. a bit more shelter further south and east. temperatures widely in the single figures, so it will be a chilly start to the day on wednesday, but frost will be limited because we do still have quite a strong breeze around and the winds will remain quite strong across northern areas of scotland in particular. some of these showers may start to fall as snow over parts of the grampians, as well, just over the highest mountains. that will be the first snow we've seen in

quite a few months, and some of the showers moving into northwestern areas of england. parts of northern ireland could bnng parts of northern ireland could bring some hail, possibly some lightning, lightning and thunder. a drier start to the day though. for more southern and eastern areas of the uk. but as we head towards lunchtime, cloud will develop further inland and some of these showers could spread into parts of more southern and central areas of england, as well as eastern areas of scotland into the afternoon. but i think the most frequent showers will continue, particularly across northwestern england, northern areas of scotland and northern ireland, andifs scotland and northern ireland, and it's going to feel cold as well. these are the maximum temperatures. temperatures will feel closer to the single figures, though, with the strength of that northerly wind. now the chilly start to the day to come on thursday , a frost to come on thursday, a frost potential as well. grass and air, frost and showers will be more frequent across more northern and eastern coasts as we head into thursday afternoon, so a slightly drier day for some northwestern areas, but still some further showers to come. looks a little bit drier and warmer by friday and turning a bit warmer into the weekend as well. but by looks like things are heating up .

are heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of

gb news. >> well, 10 million pensioners will lose their winter fuel allowance. is this a great folly from the labour party or was it overdue? and necessary ? big overdue? and necessary? big majority for the government on this. although over 50 labour mp5 did not support their own government , and today the mass government, and today the mass prisoner releases begin with extraordinary scenes outside hmp wandsworth, with champagne being opened and spliffs being handed all around. i wonder how the victims of domestic abuse feel seeing some of these scenes and on the riots. well, for years and years it feels, when only a

few months you've