with prisoner releases begin with extraordinary scenes outside hmp wandsworth, with champagne being opened and spliffs being handed all around. i wonder how the victims of domestic abuse feel seeing some of these scenes and on the riots. well, for years and years it feels, when only a few months you've been told that iinched few months you've been told that i incited the riots. and yet. and yet we actually get now we get the tsar who is in charge of terrorism in this country with support from a very, very senior member of the house of lords, saying, actually, the government withheld information that the pubuc withheld information that the public deserved to hear. i wonder just how much keir wonderjust how much keir starmer had to blame for what happenedin starmer had to blame for what happened in southport and elsewhere. but before all of that, and much more, let's get the news with sophia wenzler . the news with sophia wenzler. >> nigel. thank you. good evening from the gb newsroom. it's just gone 7:00. these are your headlines. millions of

pensioners will lose winter fuel payments after the conservative motion to stop labour's plan to slash the payments was defeated. >> eight the noes to the left, 348. >> a total of 53 labour mps abstained on the vote, while labour mp jon trickett was the only rebel. the prime ministers defended the cut, calling it a tough decision needed to tackle a £22 billion deficit. but critics , including some labour critics, including some labour mps, warned it could force millions of pensioners to choose between heating and eating . between heating and eating. despite the backlash, the government insists the cuts are necessary to secure the foundations of the economy. now former cabinet minister mel stride has been knocked out of the conservative leadership race after receiving just 16 votes. >> mel stride is eliminated from the contest and the following four candidates the former immigration minister robert

jenrick finished top with 33 votes, with kemi badenoch second on 28, while james cleverly and tom tugendhat both got 21 votes each from tory mps. >> meanwhile, the uk, along with france and germany, have announced fresh sanctions on iran for supplying russia with ballistic missiles . part of the ballistic missiles. part of the sanctions will include restrictions on iran's air, ability to fly to the uk and parts of europe. it comes amid us secretary of state antony blinken trip to the uk, where he confirmed iran has sent short range ballistic missiles to russia and predicts they'll be used in ukraine within weeks. antony blinken gave the warning after strategic talks with the foreign secretary in london aimed at boosting the special relationship between the two nations. speaking alongside david lammy, mr blinken described the development as a threat to all of europe . mr threat to all of europe. mr lammy echoed his concerns, calling the missile supply a significant escalation, and announced a joint trip to

ukraine with mr scheme insists the early release scheme is temporary, giving the government time to reform the prison system . and with just prison system. and with just eight weeks to go before the us election, republican candidate donald trump and democratic vice president kamala harris are set to face off in their first and only debate tonight. both candidates are neck and neck in key battleground states, but the debate could be critical for harris, as polls suggest many voters still don't know much about her. trump's team is urging him to focus on immigration and inflation, while

harris is expected to attack the former president's record on abortion and the capitol riots. and you can watch all the action live overnight here on gb news "$52'“ on news live overnight here on gb news with america decides trump with america decides trump versus harris starting at 2 am. versus harris starting at 2 am. those are the latest gb news those are the latest gb news headlines. now it's back to headlines. now it's back to nigel for the very latest gb nigel for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone. news direct to your smartphone. >> sign up to news alerts by >> sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com. forward slash alerts . gbnews.com. forward slash alerts. >> good evening. well, the winter fuel allowance has gone for 10 million pensioners. it was a very big parliamentary majority of 120 for the government, although one labour mp, jon trickett, did vote against his own party and about 52 abstained. but still a very big victory, we're told. of course, this is all about

plugging the black hole of £22 billion that labour say they found, although rather more cynically, i'd say the black hole is £2.7 trillion, which is the size bomber as tail end lancaster bomber as tail end charlie in world war two. and the reason he won't get the winter fuel allowance is because he has a very , very small he has a very, very small private pension that comes in and jim dwyer is very clear about it, he says , look, this is about it, he says, look, this is disgusting. after all i've done for the country, why am i being treated this way.7 now, for the country, why am i being treated this way? now, of course, there are wealthy pensioners that were getting the winter fuel allowance, but quite why we couldn't pick up the idea that lord cameron pushed yesterday, that we just don't

give the allowance to those paying give the allowance to those paying 40% tax or more. i just don't know. i wonder folks at home, is this labour's great folly? let me know what you think. farage gbnews.com and the quote from my constituent. the 99 year old was we pay in all our lives and this small perk is cut. it is absolutely disgusting what this government is doing and the way they're treating us after all we've done for our country. and i bet you over the course of the next few days, you'll see a lot more jim o'dwyer's appearing in our tabloid newspapers. i'm fairly certain of it. i'm joined in the studio by kwasi kwarteng, former conservative member of parliament and chancellor jay phillips and paddy ashdown's former press secretary, and many other things. campaigns, media. but i'm joined first down the line by ivor caplin , former line by ivor caplin, former labour defence minister, who joins me from brighton. and it would be fair to say, ivor, that there have been some

conservative voices questioning this over the years, but i understand you fully support what the government have done today. >> absolutely, nigel, i think this was the right decision to make. i know it's an early decision in terms of where we are as, as, as a as a, as a commons. but obviously there's work to do up until you get to the budget. and so by dealing with this one and dealing with all the issues i think that's right. can i just help? i hope right. can ijust help? i hope this is helping anyway and just say one thing, i heard you just say one thing, i heard you just say about 52 labour mps , but say about 52 labour mps, but what we do actually know is only 12 of those are actually people who, voted or abstained , without who, voted or abstained, without permission. the rest are not here for whatever government reason they may be, something which is not an unusual situation in any situation for the government. there are people abroad. there are people doing

other things, but that's that's the numbers that i've got. >> well , okay, whether you're >> well, okay, whether you're right or wrong, whether you're right or wrong, whether you're right or wrong, what really matters, ivor, is not what the backbenches think of what the frontbench has done. it's what the country thinks. and, you know, i mentioned my 99 year old constituent who did did his tour as tail end charlie. and you see, cases like that doesn't feel quite right, does it ? feel quite right, does it? >> well, it's i think the whole thing about the winter winter payment has always been something that has made it very difficult. in some occasions there have been moments right through since gordon brown. i think, first suggested this in the late 90s, that that there were people who wanted to change things, change things, change things, change things, change things, and we've never actually got to it. and though we i think deep down we all knew that the pensions were just not working properly for everyone, you know?

and as you just said in your introduction, nigel, you know, there were people who are on significant sums of money who were still taking their their £300. so there's always been this issue, you can go back over the last 15 years and you can find that sort of comment from people who have different views, but all really joined together on this matter. >> okay. ivor caplin, you could not be clearer. thank you for coming on and making that point , coming on and making that point, kwasi. i mean, of course we know that it's ludicrous that wealthy pensioners should have been receiving this. i did think the lord cameron's suggestion was quite clever. >> so look. so this has been an issue that's been debated for years. and when i was in the treasury before that, people would always come up. the civil servants would always say, what about the winter fuel payment? and generally chancellors and people in political life have taken a political decision and said, we can't harm the most vulnerable people in our

society. now, what labour have done , and let's be frank about done, and let's be frank about this, is they've made a political decision. they've come in, they've only been there, what, two months and they've said, we're going to do a inflation busting deals for unions, and we're going to essentially pay for that by taking away pensioner benefits that wasn't forced upon them. that was a political decision. and is that they have made that because they think the pensioner population won't vote for them next time. they will have made political and economic decisions . political and economic decisions. but what rachel reeves is doing is saying, okay, we've got we're giving the unions more than inflation. inflation is at 2%. they're giving them 8% a year in some cases for three years. and they're saying in order to pay for this, we're going to take away winter fuel payment. now it's their prerogative to do that. but i think politically and morally, some people might say this was the wrong choice. >> it's a funny one, joe, that rachel reeves herself has claimed £3,700 in heating allowances off the taxpayer for

her second home. it's not a good look, is it? no it's not. >> and actually all of this as ivor said, and you and kwasi have said, it is utterly ridiculous that wealthy people, you know , are being paid this you know, are being paid this money. and there have been over the years , and the triple lock the years, and the triple lock is much more important because it increases pensions. the i'm just a couple of quick things. the pay awards that were given to public sector workers were recommended, as you very well know, by the independent pay review bodies, there are more pressing issues actually, i think, but the government have handled this so badly. this has been running for weeks and weeks and weeks. she announced it as a total shock to everybody. it was a shock a week before ofgem announced the new cap on energy pnces announced the new cap on energy prices , two months, nearly three prices, two months, nearly three months before her budget , with months before her budget, with no indication of what might be done. no indication of what might be done . whether it's going to done. whether it's going to target council tax bands or whether it's to raise the

personal. yes, i know there are loads and loads of. >> well, here's the funny thing about it. here's the funny thing. here's a funny the funny thing. here's a funny the funny thing about it, you know, as kwasi as joe quite accurately says, it came as a bolt from the blue, the bit that surprised me. no impact assessment had been done. no. i find that really surprising. >> they've done a political decision. i mean, look, i've been there. i've done budgets that have, you know, surprised markets and there's no question about it. >> there's a sense and there's a sense in which, you know, i totally get where they're coming from. >> they want to come in, they want to get things done. you know , in a dramatic way. and know, in a dramatic way. and they're hoping that sometime in they're hoping that sometime in the middle of the parliament, everyone will have forgotten about it. the danger with this. and i remember the coalition government when the lib dems voted for tuition fees, thinking that , yeah, they never that, yeah, they never recovered. they went from they got 23% in the election by the end of the year, 2010, they were on 10%. i checked and 5% of that was from the tuition fees. >> hence my audience question tonight. is this labour's folly? >> so time will tell. they're hoping that, you know, in two years time people will have

forgotten about this and there'll be other things, or even by next april when pensions go even by next april when pensions 9° up even by next april when pensions go up , or if even by next april when pensions go up, or if there is something announced in the budget in october. >> but if you're going to do something like this and you're going to make it a political statement about black holes and finances, surely it is more sensible to hit the wealthiest rather than a group of people. and every single newspaper, every single mp, can wheel out somebody. they're not finding people going well, actually, i don't need it. i've got another case. >> well, you're looking actually at sort of in some constituencies, you're looking at 10,000 voters. so the problem with the impact . and are the with the impact. and are the liberal democrats likely to be beneficiaries of this? >> i don't think so. i mean, you know, today's vote was completely, you know, unnecessary. and i think, you know, one should give credit to keir starmer for letting they don't need it . don't need it. >> he had no choice, did he. >> he had no choice, did he. >> well he did he could he could have just he could have waited. >> you see, the clever thing about it is that it would have been much riskier doing it in a budget. why? because because

actually you don't want rebels in a budget. this was an indicative vote. it wasn't really something that was binding under the sorry, the number of people objecting to a budget on a vote would be much more politically significant. so in a way, he's taken the heat now he's got the vote. he can say, look, my party are behind me. we've got 120 majority and he can move on. and actually it makes it less likely that he'll do well. >> and also, i think as ivor said, you know, the rebels, the abstention abstainers, you know, there's only a dozen of them. >> you say that. >> you say that. >> well, i don't buy that. i'm sorry . sorry. >> but the reality i don't buy that as an mp and i've been an mp. yes >> yeah. >> yeah. >> what will happen? the whips will say, look, i know you're uncomfortable about this. don't come in. why don't you. why don't you? well, maybe be scared. maybe they will and they will. they will have had those conversations. >> i don't buy that somewhere. >> i don't buy that somewhere. >> that. but the point is, it is not a massive rebellion. no, you're right, it's actually generally it is all puff and wind. >> in percentage terms. >> in percentage terms. >> it's not a huge no no, no. and also whether it's 12 or 15, nigel, you'll find this at the

beginning of the parliament. the rebellions are quite small because people they're newbies, they're getting the hang of it. they're trying to work out how things work. in the middle of the parliament is where, you know, i think they'll be proper rebellions by that point. >> wouldn't surprise me. well, we'll see, i have a feeling the impact of this might last in the minds of some people, a little bit longer than my panel. suspect i could be wrong in a moment. the first 2000 prisoners were let out today. a 1700 of them were domestic abusers, some of them quite serious. in a moment we'll show you scenes from outside h.m. prison, wandsworth, and i'll ask, how do the victims and families of victims feel looking at these scenes today ?

well, some of your thoughts from home and my question is this labour's folly? richard says, yes, nigel, it is labour's poll tax moment and the lib dems uni

fees moment. they will not survive five years. i tell you what, with the majority of that size, i think they probably will last five years. but hey valerie, says nigel, i wonder if the labour government thinks that if loads of pensioners succumb to cold, oh don't, we will have fewer pensioners to pay will have fewer pensioners to pay for now, i don't think even even the darkest minds that might exist inside government would be thinking of that . gosh, would be thinking of that. gosh, i'm being so generous today. now it's the beginning of the prison release scheme. 5500 prisoners to be released between now and the end of october. after all, we have to make room for those who've been beastly on facebook. don't we? now, charlie peters, gb news reporter, was down with a camera outside h.m. prison, wandsworth this morning. just have a look at some of these scenes. scei'ies. >> scenes. >> everyone's been happy today. i'm sure coming out, though, isn't it. yeah. there's been a lot of happy people faces in there. yeah, that's for sure. yeah, yeah. >> so you're, you're grateful to labour and you're grateful to

the 100% labour labour vote. >> labour all my life. yeah. labour's labour's one way you are. >> he's been let out early and he's now going to be labour all his life. i'm not sure that's really what it was for. but there was a party atmosphere outside there. people gathered outside there. people gathered outside there. people gathered outside the prison before the releases, playing loud music and champagne corks popping. i got told me last week, i mean, look, it's you know, everyone's gathered. exciting. there's music blasting out . music blasting out. >> not very many people. >> not very many people. >> where did they get the champagne from? >> no, there's a few. well, you see that at the moment. here we are. champagne time . are. champagne time. >> it's like the grand prix. >> it's like the grand prix. >> big celebrations. yeah. you've got first prize in the race. well done. and i can also tell you that prisoners that came out were being given. and we can't show this on the television, but we're being given, already lit spliffs. but

that's all fine. and that's what we reefer cigarettes, as they used to call them in the old days. >> nigel farage have a funny smell. absolutely. yeah. >> very funny smell. a smell that's much more common these days than it ever was before. joe people serving up to 40% of their sentences, some as small as 20% of their sentences. surely if they go to prison in the first place, they should stay there for a reasonable time? >> yes they should. if the space and capacity for them. but actually, as we were just saying in the break, and, you know, the previous government was already doing this, so there is nothing new in this that's happened . new in this that's happened. we've got the backlog of covid, which is clogging up the courts with an awful lot of cases and some very serious cases waiting to get to court. and that means some people are held on remand for much longer than they should be. we've got a prison estate, as they call it, which is absolutely creaking at the seams and is in appalling conditions. i mean, it's coincidental that

his majesty's inspector of pfisons his majesty's inspector of prisons report came out today and said, you know, our prisons are on a knife edge, but what you've got from this is the problem, and there will be people who slip through the net. it is inevitable. but you've got a probation service that's been squeezed until their pips squeaked . you've got people who squeaked. you've got people who won't have homes to go to tonight because they'll be homeless. you have got all sorts of issues to deal with this, but you've also got the problem. you know, i think personally that keir starmer dealt with the rioters in southport and other places very quickly, very swiftly and sent a message very clearly to people , but there are clearly to people, but there are people out there. i mean, you hinted at it, nigel, in your introduction, that domestic abusers are being set free. that is actually not the case. there may be people who and this is very you know, it's nitpicking , very you know, it's nitpicking, but there will be nobody who is in prison serving a sentence for domestic abuse, who will be

released under this, who previously have said maybe serving somebody else. >> so the issue here, i think , >> so the issue here, i think, and it will become much more dramatic because some of those people let out today will almost inevitably reoffend. and the their future victims, whoever they may be, will wonder to themselves why on earth were these dangerous criminals allowed to be let out early? >> but it could be quasi, because, you know, your party in government because, you know, your party |n government oversaw a because, you know, your party in government oversaw a population explosion of 6 million people and didn't build a single new prison. yeah. >> so that was that was, i think i think the conservative party, my party has some responsibility for this, some because we didn't build enough prisons. well, come on, i mean, nowhere near enough. but as i say, this is a policy. they've come in and they've decided they haven't said, okay, we're going to build new makeshift prisons. they haven't said that they're going to there was a report that they were going to send them to estonia. they haven't done that. they've made a policy decision to let

was it 1700 prisoners out early? and they will be responsible, if any of these prisoners. >> well, it's five it's 5500 by the end of october. >> yeah. in two months. yeah and if any of those 5000, god forbid , if any of those 5000, god forbid, commits a serious crime , god commits a serious crime, god forbid, murder or anything like that. forbid, murder or anything like that . yeah, the government will that. yeah, the government will be partially responsible for that. well, and that's a very serious thing. >> what it is this government and the previous. >> no, no they're both. >> no, no they're both. >> yeah, i agree with that. >> yeah, i agree with that. >> but what i'm saying now is that once once they're in there's a problem and they can deal with that problem. how they will they can say, right, we can make makeshift prisons. we've had suggestions about australia's. >> did that make estonia? >> did that make estonia? >> the estonian thing was never that was a complete fiction. it was a it was a fiction. but why would it be not make sense? >> i mean, if they've got prison capacity, that doesn't make sense. sei'ise. >> sense. >> i'm just saying it was never so the point i'm trying to make. >> there is an irony about estonia that we could send prisoners to estonia, but the cost the taxpayer less than having been british citizens. so what i'm saying is that the government is making political choices every day, and they will

have to be held to account. well, governments do that. you can blame and governments do that. they've chosen. forgive me to let 5000 people out in the next two months. >> but kwasi, there are people who as yet are not the victims of crime, who may not be the victims of crime from these people who are being released, who when the police catch the person, the perpetrator, nothing can be done with them because there's no space in the prison, because it's clogged up. i mean, there is a hole and it's a much broader issue and successive governments have failed to deal with it. well, there are 10,000 foreign prisoners of so what we would 10,000 foreign prisoners get rid of the lot bebe loads of room then, wouldn't there. >> no it doesn't. >> no it doesn't. >> why not five minutes, does it? why not? >> why do you want. do you want the taxpayer to pay the foreign. >> yeah, but it's really hard to get rid of them. that's the problem. >> send them to poland. >> send them to poland. >> you know that. >> you know that. >> you know that. >> you know you've got the echr. you've got every corner or whatever. >> yeah, there's problems. >> yeah, there's problems. >> and the idea that you could just press a button and ship these people away, you know, doesn't work properly. >> the echr would never allow it. and of course, our judges

wouldn't allow it. echr. no, no. and all the while, all the while, the european convention on human rights is enshrined in british law will never be able to do these things. you asked a question earlier. where are they all going to go? the justice secretary, shabana mahmood, said in the house of commons today. i've authorised probation directors to make use of alternative arrangements, including budget hotels. >> yeah, well, some will go there but some will just disappear. i mean, some will be on the streets tonight because there is nowhere for them to go. and of course, that in itself creates a problem because if you don't have an address, how do you then get there? there were ways i agree that the conservative party, my party, my government was responsible in part for this because we didn't spend enough money building prisons. >> sure. but there are ways you could deal with the problem as now it wasn't inevitable that they were going to let out 5000 people in two months. well, that's a big risk. >> well, that's what they're doing. now, let's talk a little bit about politics, about the tuc. those of a certain age can remember the tuc was immensely powerful and very, very political. i've just got a sense that this tuc is now starting to flex its political muscles in a

way that we haven't actually seen for decades in this country. gb news political editor christopher hope , was editor christopher hope, was talking to the tuc general secretary, paul novak, earlier on today . on today. >> i don't believe for one moment that most of those who voted reform at the last election are racist. but let me say this clearly and unequivocally nigel farage isn't a friend of the working class. he's a fraud , a public school he's a fraud, a public school educated, private equity loving , educated, private equity loving, nhs privatising, putin, apologist fraud. >> now interesting isn't it ? apologist fraud. >> now interesting isn't it? i mean, why should this? why should the general secretary of the trade unions congress choose to launch an attack on reform, who may have a lot of voters but only have five members of parliament? this i think, is a sign we're going to see a very political tuc. what say you? so

look, i dealt with i met paul novak when i was business secretary and i used to be on zoom calls with him. >> i met him a couple of times. i actually went to the tuc. and at that time, because they knew there was a conservative government, they were on their best behaviour. it was like, you know, the old days, you'd dress up in your sunday best. they couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been friendlier. seeing him in that clip, i think, suggests to me that you're right. i think they're militant. i think they see that their people are in charge. they've got that great pay deal within about a month or three weeks of labour getting in, and this is their chance, and they're going to be a lot more political, a lot more militant. and i think they're as strong as they are since for 40 years. >> i mean, are we going back to the bad old days? jay >> well, i don't think we are because we haven't got that level of membership of trade unions. and we don't have the, you know, the huge factories, the car plants and things like that. i mean, there was a time back in the day when i think most people knew the names of trade union leaders. they were huge figures, more than cabinet ministers. i mean, you might

have known the prime minister and the chancellor, but that was about it. but you knew who those people were, jim jones and all those guys. >> yeah. the household names. >> yeah. the household names. >> yeah. the household names. >> yeah. you know, work has changed. the very nature of work has changed, and trade unions have had to to change adapt to it because they're not getting the bulk membership that they used to from the factory, but they still i mean, let's face it, they still fund about 85% of the labour party's income comes from trade unions. >> labour are back in power, but not all trade unions fund the laboun >> no, no, but but a chunk of their money. yes, of course it does. >> kwasi point is they were on best behaviour when the conservatives won best behaviour. well they never now they have real leverage. >> they were never political. >> they were never political. >> they were never political. >> they have leverage but they also have difference. i mean i think paul novak has been very interesting in talking about the winter fuel allowance that we were just talking about. he has not or in the interviews before the conference, he didn't call on starmer and reeves to do a u—turn, whereas sharon graham from unite did so. there is a difference. there is a nuance, i think, to a certain extent the trade union movement has always been the conscience, if you like, of the labour party , and

like, of the labour party, and there is no doubt that they will be putting pressure on a labour government to do things. but don't forget a lot of these people are the people who were being clapped on thursday nights dunng being clapped on thursday nights during covid because they were key workers, they were shop workers, they were nurses, they were hospital porters, they were transport workers. >> so i don't have an issue with the unions in themselves . okay, the unions in themselves. okay, but what i was interested in that speech was he had a direct p0p that speech was he had a direct pop at you, which is which i love, but i don't. and of course you do. of course. and you've got big shoulders. don't play me. no no no no, no. but it wasn't remotely it was a very political. >> that's the point. >> that's the point. >> that's the point. >> that was the point. i mean, you know, i mean, nigel was big enough to look after himself. and we're in politics and we expect personal hits. but what interests me was the fact that paul novak, who i had very, you know, cordial professional deaungs know, cordial professional dealings with, suddenly has become essentially a political actor. and i think that's interesting. and i think that's a hint of where, where they're going. >> but it's the first tuc conference with a labour government. >> you could say that.

>> you could say that. >> and it is the first tuc conference. >> you're making a point. you're making a point. >> all of that political and military, you know, there is an argument that maybe we need unions more than ever. that all of us benefit from the struggles and the fights that the trade unions across the centuries have. >> so, look, my issue with the trade unions is that they are highly centred around the public sector, which is natural . but, sector, which is natural. but, you know, in terms of private sector, you know, when i was a constituency mp, most of the businesses operating in my constituency were private sector enterprises and they didn't have very strong unions, and yet they had to deal with all the economic pressures that the unions and the union bosses do. >> you know what, guys? we're going to hear a lot more about paul novak, whether he becomes a household name in the old days of alan murray's, etc, i don't know, but we're going to hear more of him in a minute. the riots who was responsible for the riots? was it me was it keir starmer? you get an

it was on the 29th of july that that horrendous murder of those three young girls, the injuring of eight others and two adults, took place in southport and it was the most extraordinary 24 hours afterwards of riots of violence and of massive online speculation as to who the perpetrator really, truly was. and it led to me saying this on a video to say there are 1 or 2 questions. was this guy being monitored by the security services? some reports say he was. others less sure . the was. others less sure. the police say it's a non terror incident , just as they said the incident, just as they said the stabbing of an army lieutenant colonel in uniform on the streets of kent. the other day was a non terror incident. i just wonder whether the truth is being withheld from us. well, i

felt we weren't being told the full truth. i don't know what the reasons were and i felt even more justified in what i said. just a couple of weeks later, when we learned that calocane the triple murderer from nottingham the year before , when nottingham the year before, when we learned that actually three years before that atrocity , a years before that atrocity, a very senior doctor had said, if you let this man out, he will go out and kill. now, quite why we weren't allowed to be told a bit more about this man. i don't know, had we been told more about him? i do not think the southport riots would have happened on anything like the level that they did. but this was seized upon, of course, by everybody on the left, the centre left, mainstream media and politics to say it's farage, that's inciting the riots. and this has been said since the 3rd of august. i've never once responded to it. i've just frankly ignored it and waited for more to happen. well, yesterday jonathan hall kc , who yesterday jonathan hall kc, who was the independent reviewer of

terrorism legislation, the sort of terror tsar if you like, said, i think we are at a point in time where trust in public institutions should not be taken for granted, and when matters of high importance in the public mind happen, that as far as is possible for the police, the government and the media should level with them, those institutions will not continue to enjoy the trust that they have had to date. if there is any general sense that things are being hidden, and that is exactly what the conspiracy theorists and the grievance merchants depend upon. and lord carlile, you know, also spoke out strongly on this. the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation and a very intelligent comment. i think we should get out more information if we possibly can. we have learned from these events that when somebody is arrested and there was a potential issue like this arising, the police probably need to tell the media who has been arrested and what

their background is. well, i've got to tell you folks , that is got to tell you folks, that is exactly that is exactly what i was saying. tell us the truth, because you would not have had that frenzied online speculation. why the government, why the police chose not to do it? is something we need answers to. it's perfectly clear from the views of those two gentlemen that actually it was government that actually it was government that led to those riots being far worse than they could have been. now, there were some pretty appalling abusive stuff said about me online. so i'd like apologies, please, from anna soubry. brendan cox, dawn butler mp, david baines mp, kim johnson mp stand up to racism andy macdonald mp, the deputy prime minister angela rayner jess phillips, former snp leader humza yousaf , former tory mp humza yousaf, former tory mp tobias ellwood, the metro mayor of liverpool steve rotheram, the times newspaper lbc's james o'brien, trevor phillips, tom tugendhat and the former assistant commissioner of the police neil basu. oh andy and

his lot as well. well, there we are. i might get an apology from all of them, but i rather doubt that i will. but joe and i know you know, you were fairly critical of me at the time as well, actually, what's been said there is. right and very interesting what's been said is right and very interesting. >> i was critical of you because you went on twitter instead of using your position in the house of commons, and the house wasn't sitting, to be fair. yes, it was well for a day and then. yeah, but but it was the wrong place to do it. well, let me just finish because i think it ill behoves a man of nigel's intelligence and ability to play the sid james of nudge, nudge, wink wink when it comes to conspiracy theories. >> no, no, no, i was asking to dampen down the conspiracy theory. >> you should have asked the home secretary in parliament anyway. you didn't. >> i didn't get the opportunity to do because all that happened, it doesn't matter. >> well, we were anyway. >> well, we were anyway. >> well, we were anyway. >> we had the broader point. >> we had the broader point. >> but the broader point is absolutely yes. it is much better that people are told the truth. and in fact, we've heard that today in the lucy letby inquiry, the thirlwell inquiry ,

inquiry, the thirlwell inquiry, interestingly, that the parents of those children who died or who were injured were not told about the concerns that have been raised. now this happens all the time in the health service. so, look, i think and the thing that you mentioned about. >> so why did starmer and others decide to keep schtum? they must have known as we all knew, that some crazy stuff was happening online. >> so look, to be fair, to try and be fair to them, the world has changed in the last 510 years. social media, twitter. 20 years. social media, twitter. 20 years ago you could keep things quiet. you can't now and you had a different relationship with the media and the police. that's right. and so in government, i don't think government has caught up. i think they think, oh, well, you know, we've got to keep it quiet. there's an ongoing inquiry and i'm afraid with social media things are going to go crazy. exactly before. and so you need more transparency and you need more openness as i as i say, that's what caught them out. >> but it's also the police. >> but it's also the police. >> i mean, i dispute the fact that unless you've got any evidence that it was a government decision, sometimes the police are absolutely not

very sensible about dealing with things and not very quick , but things and not very quick, but they are dealing with, i think, ongoing. >> i think you're right. i think it's an operational politicians, leading politicians. >> nigel, i really don't think you should blame the government. >> they should have known that a cauldron was building up out there of false speculation. >> you were part of it. >> you were part of it. >> that is absolute rot. i was not part of it in any way at all. i was saying, for goodness sake, tell us the truth. yes. had they told us the truth, those riots would not have happened on that scale. but you had the opportunity to ask the home secretary , either in home secretary, either in writing or in expression. >> you could have written you could have written, by the way, number one, you could have written it, and you could have doneit written it, and you could have done it properly. >> number two, i got a much bigger, more immediate audience on x than i ever would have. but that's the problem. but that's the problem. >> but that's the problem, which sums up why. >> which sums you in parliament. why are you in parliament? why don't you just tweet on x? >> well, because i, because i have to represent people in parliament and that's why they want to be represented. but the truth of it is and you've just summed it up, x is now so big.

government and police need to recognise that. >> yeah, they need to catch up. i mean look i would give the government the benefit of the doubt because having been a government minister, there's a whole bunch of stuff operationally that's happening. there's no way that the home secretary or the prime minister knows about what the operational elements, the detail is, and they wouldn't have got around and they wouldn't know about that. and it's to do with the very simple question. >> well, i'll tell you what, if anything, is beastly as this happens again, let's hope some very significant lessons. >> then i would like you, nigel, to say stop speculating to the people who are not. >> i was what i was saying was tell us the truth and the speculation will end. i was absolutely. do you know what? i was the only mp that got this right. and i really believed that i genuinely wanted the other mps say they said that you were right, you know. >> oh, yes, yes, yes they were. >> oh, yes, yes, yes they were. >> they were perfectly happy with the silence. whilst out there there was a ferment growing in the country and they got it wrong. in a minute there'll be a really big debate going on tonight. yep. trump what does it mean? how significant is it? who's going

to

i doubt there's been a presidential debate of such significance in america for many, many decades. donald trump of course, everyone knows who he is, but kamala harris will. she may have been the vice president for the last four years, but not really very widely known. how much does it matter? what are the polls telling us? i'm joined by tom bevan , co—founder and by tom bevan, co—founder and president of real clear politics, who joins me live from chicago. tom, welcome. good afternoon. thank you for joining us on the program. how much, in your view and in the view of the polls , how much does this debate on gb. >> ne\how much does this debate polls, how much does this debate tonight actually matter ? polls, how much does this debate tonight actually matter tonight actually matter? >> well, you know, the old saw is that presidential debates don't really matter until they do. and we saw that on june 27th, when joe biden's

performance mattered. a lot. it drove him out of the race. and so the question is, is this another debate that's going to matter a lot, or will it maybe not matter very much at all? i mean, the polls tell us this is a very, very close race. kamala harris is up 1.1% nationally in our real clear politics average. that's down from about 1.9% just a week or ten days ago. so some of that, some of that bump from the convention and from her taking over has sort of worn off. and in the battleground states where this race is going to be decided, it's very, very close. harris has about a point and a half lead in wisconsin, a one point lead in michigan. pennsylvania's tied and everything else is a half a point or less. and so even if this debate shifts opinion only by, you know, a 1% or half a percent, it could make a difference in some of these key battleground states. >> yeah it could. am i right to think that the american public don't really know harris very well ? well? >> yeah, i think that's right. i

mean, she has been vice president for four years. you know, obviously she was in the senate before that. but in terms of, you know, her operating as her own candidate, as her as the person who, you know, would be the commander in chief, would be the commander in chief, would be the leader of the free world, she hasn't really put out a whole lot of explanations or policy positions over the course of the last 50 days or so that she's been the effective democratic nominee. and so i think there is there are a lot of questions. there are some undecided voters who are waiting to they're going to watch this debate very carefully. they're waiting to hear more from her because she simply hasn't, you know, given herself, you know , know, given herself, you know, given explanations to the public via interviews or press conferences . she hasn't done any conferences. she hasn't done any of that. and so this might be one of their first and perhaps only chances to see her live . only chances to see her live. and she's going to have to defend her policy. she's going to have to explain her positions. she's going to have to be quick on her feet. and they're looking to see how she's going to do.

>> fascinating. tom bevan, thank you for joining >> fascinating. tom bevan, thank you forjoining us. well, tom you for joining us. well, tom there. i mean, wow, this is so tight. isn't it a country of 300 million people. it'll be 10,000 voters here and 5000 voters there that decide it . kwasi. there that decide it. kwasi. isn't it amazing that you can be a senior figure who could be president in a couple of months time, and no one knows what you stand for? yeah. >> it's incredible. but if you look at the circumstances in which she became the nominee, they were pretty incredible, too. i mean, joe biden had been there. i mean, he'd been in the senate for 40, 35, 56 years. he'd been in politics for 50 years. so people knew who he was. she's much younger, a lot less experienced. and what i find extraordinary is that she was nominated or essentially she took over in a kind of bait and switch only six weeks ago. so and in all that time, she's only had one interview, and that was with her vice presidential candidate, you know, as a kind of chaperone. yeah tim walz on her side. so she's never actually on her own account. but tonight , actually on her own account. but tonight, having had to defend

herself. and she will tonight she will. what significance about tonight. >> any thoughts what happens tonight? >> well, i think she's got more to lose than trump. >> i mean, we all know what trump is and we all know how he will perform and he will come outwith, you will perform and he will come out with, you know, word will perform and he will come outwith, you know, word salad as usual. but those people who love him will love him anyway. i think it's a question of whether she can what he hates. like all narcissists, is to be prodded and goaded. and if she can do that and create a reaction, provoke a reaction from him, then she's probably won. i mean, i think, you know, although she is not flagging it up hugely, she doesn't need to because self—evidently she is a woman. she is doing quite well, as far as i understand her amongst women voters. and we've also seen this week that dick cheney is going to vote for her. >> yeah, i mean, it's all over the shop, isn't it? >> and it's such a different you've got a kennedy backing trump. >> you've got i mean let's see. >> so i think it's going to be interesting. i think trump people know i mean you have to have lived under a rock not to

know who trump is. i think with kamala harris, the polls, as tom suggested, are sliding a little bit. i mean, it's slightly narrower. there was a time when she was running away with it, but it'll be a good watch. >> i think it will be. >> i think it will be. >> you know, talking of that as donald trump. thank you for the q and kamala harris go head to headin q and kamala harris go head to head in their first presidential debate. it's going to be live on gb news overnight. tom harwood presents america decides trump v harris. it will be on live on gb news from 2 am. both on radio and on television. so there we are. just a quick one to finish. the tory leadership race has not especially inspired the nation as yet. today a fella called mel stride has been kicked out. kwasi tell us why we should be really excited about this. >> i think the public is right. it's not the most exciting time. it's not the most exciting time. i mean, when you've got five candidates and they've been eliminated to four, i think the pubuc eliminated to four, i think the public quite rightly isn't particularly as focused as it might be on it. i think it'll become much more interesting when we get to the last two. it's unclear to me who the last

two will be. i suspect jenrick will be one of them. so do i, but i don't know who the other the other person is. it seems like a wide open race. no, joe, you've you've been in and around politics and media all your life. >> you must be gripped by this. >> you must be gripped by this. >> i you know, i'm so gripped i can hardly even think about the american election. you'd have to run through the names again, nigel. i think you know, whoever wins, they're not. probably. most likely going to be the next tory. >> they said that about starmer. they said exactly the same thing about starmer. >> but then your party imploded. so are you slightly gave it to him on a plate didn't you? but actually, you know, it's probably going to be the caretaker person who works out where the tory party goes. and then it's the person after that which will be much more interesting. by the time we get into midterm of a keir starmer. >> i suspect that is right. >> i suspect that is right. >> i'm joined by sir jacob rees—mogg. you are gripped by this election . of course. i'm this election. of course. i'm listening to every heartbeat of it, and i think tonight's result was probably quite for good kemi. >> she gained the most votes. mel stride marginal, marginal,

marginal. but these are in margins, these things and james cleverly stalled didn't go up. there are 16 votes from mel stride which you would assume are primarily up for the left wing candidate. so that's james and tom tugendhat. so you'd expect them to go up and so there are at least three people who could get it at the moment. and i don't know which will the fourth will be who'll be eliminated next time. >> and in brief, tonight, your big night. >> well, i'm going to be talking about germany suddenly modelling itself on you know, the chancellor of germany should be called herr farage, i think from now on, because he wants to close the borders. >> i know they're much too right wing for me. these german politicians. but they. but isn't it amazing? and what they're saying is that the echr can go to hell. >> they don't care about that. and they don't care about free movement. they've got a special exemption because of course, they're germany to close their borders. >> and they and they wrote the rules in the first place for the whole club. it's quite extraordinary. i am done for the

evening. back with you tomorrow. let's get the news. weather first though, with annie shuttleworth . shuttleworth. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update. a cold spell of weather to come through the rest of this week. a particularly cold northerly wind will develop throughout the country overnight tonight, and that will bring with it some blustery showers as well. the air is coming from the arctic, hence why it's quite so cold. we've got low pressure up to the north and east of the uk, so that's brought some very windy weather across northeastern areas of scotland, through the rest through this afternoon that will move away to the east though overnight. and so it will turn a little bit calmer for these areas, but still quite a cold wind through much of the night and frequent showers across north and western areas . a bit more shelter areas. a bit more shelter further south and east. temperatures widely in the single figures, so it will be a chilly start to the day on wednesday, but frost will be limited because we do still have

quite a strong breeze around and the winds will remain quite strong across northern areas of scotland. in particular. some of these showers may start to fall as snow over parts of the grampians as well. just over the highest mountains. that'll be the first snow we've seen in quite a few months, and some of the showers moving into northwestern areas of england, parts of northern ireland could bnng parts of northern ireland could bring some hail, possibly some lightning. lightning and thunder. a drier start to the day though. for more southern and eastern areas of the uk. but as we head towards lunchtime, cloud will develop further inland and some of these showers could spread into parts of more southern and central areas of england, as well as eastern areas of scotland into the afternoon. but i think the most frequent showers will continue, particularly across northwestern england, northern areas of scotland and northern ireland, andifs scotland and northern ireland, and it's going to feel cold as well. these are the maximum temperatures. temperatures will feel closer to the single figures, though, with the strength of that northerly wind . strength of that northerly wind. now the chilly start to the day to come. on thursday, a frost potential as well. grass and air, frost and showers will be more frequent across more

northern and eastern coasts as we head into thursday afternoon, so a slightly drier day for some northwestern areas, but still some further showers to come. looks a little bit drier and warmer by friday, and turning a bit warmer into the weekend as well by a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb. >> news

polls, how much does this debate tonight actually matte. the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by a panel of former editor of labourlist , of former editor of labourlist, peter edwards, and communications officer for the institute for economic affairs , institute for economic affairs, reem ibrahim. as always, it's a crucial part of the programme. let me know your views. mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's your favourite time of the day. the news bulletin with sophia wenzler lakshmi parthasarathy .

parthasarathy. >> jacob thank you. good evening from the gb newsroom. it's just gone 8:00. these are your headlines. millions of pensioners will lose winter fuel payments after the conservative motion to stop labour's plan to slash the payments was defeated. >> eight the noes to the left, 348. >> a total of 53 labour mps abstained on the vote, while