>> good evening. a government bailout for the tata steel plant at port talbot. but is this really the answer for the british steel industry? i've got a chance today at pmqs to ask about prisoner releases. i'm worried. i'm worried we're letting the wrong people out and maybe putting the wrong people in. and of course, in the middle of the night, our time. it was the trump v harris debate. it seems the harris camp are very happy indeed. we'll debate and discuss all of those things and much more. but first, let's get the news with sophia wenzler . the news with sophia wenzler. >> nigel. thank you. good evening from the gb newsroom. it's just gone. 7:00. your headlines. the foreign secretary has announced over £600 million

worth of support for ukraine, while the us secretary of state has announced £700 billion. it comes as david lammy and antony blinken are currently in kyiv on a joint trip, calling it a critical moment in the war with russia. theirjoint critical moment in the war with russia. their joint visit follows reports that joe biden will lift a ban on british storm shadow missiles being used on russian territory after iran suppued russian territory after iran supplied ballistic missiles to russia. speaking after meeting with the ukrainian president, mr lammy announced the support package. >> and today i can confirm more than 600 million worth of support for ukraine, including 242 million this financial year for immediate humanitarian energy and stabilisation needs, as well as support for reform recovery and reconstruction. >> meanwhile , back in the uk, >> meanwhile, back in the uk, labouris >> meanwhile, back in the uk, labour is facing mounting pressure from within its own ranks to reverse cuts to the

winter fuel payment in today's exchanges. at prime minister's questions, rishi sunak pushed the keir starmer for details on the keir starmer for details on the impact of the cuts, which will see 10 million pensioners lose the payment . despite the lose the payment. despite the opposition. the prime minister insists it's necessary to fix a £22 billion financial shortfall . £22 billion financial shortfall. the business secretary has unveiled a multi—million pound package to support tata steel's shift to greener production. jonathan reynolds blamed the previous government for failing to make critical decisions. however, the conservatives are accusing labour of extending a deal they once criticised. jonathan reynolds says the new agreement includes investment opportunities to secure long term jobs, despite up to 2800 positions being at risk. term jobs, despite up to 2800 positions being at risk . and in positions being at risk. and in the us, donald trump and kamala harris have met again at a 9/11 memorial event in new york after facing off in their first and possibly only presidential debate last night. the showdown

began with a handshake , but began with a handshake, but quickly took a turn when harris mocked trump's rallies, accusing him of boring his crowds. trump hit back, defending his popularity and attacking harris on her immigration stance and economic policies. >> she's going to do this. she's going to do that . she's going to going to do that. she's going to do all these wonderful things. why hasn't she done it? she's been there for three and a half years. they've had three and a half years to fix the border . half years to fix the border. they've had three and a half years to create jobs and all the things we talked about. why hasn't she done it ? hasn't she done it? >> those are your latest headunes. >> those are your latest headlines . now it's back to headlines. now it's back to nigel for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone , news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> good evening. the british

steel industry has been in decline for decades now. some of it, of course, is because china has been producing vast amounts of steel flooding the market, much of it of course, actually being produced and sold at a loss. but taking market share. but the other element here, and it's quite important, is that in order to reduce our carbon dioxide emissions and to meet net zero targets, we've almost been gleeful that we've closed steel plants. and i remember very well when redcar closed just under a decade ago, and the government seemed delighted , and government seemed delighted, and yet that steel production moved to india with the products being imported back here. so i've always had a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the decline of steel, but with port talbot, the last really big steel plant, and scunthorpe a bit too. but port talbot, the last big primary steel producer in this country thatis steel producer in this country that is going to close with a loss of 2800 jobs. but the government today have stepped in. jonathan reynolds did step in. jonathan reynolds did step in today and say this in the

house of commons earlier on today, where the previous government had simply ceased to make decisions and decided to leave them for us to deal with. >> this was a dereliction of duty, and it has left the steel industry in particular, in an extremely perilous position. absolutely. the last government had been promising a plan for the steel industry for years. with what i am able to announce today with the signing of a legally binding deal that enables tata to order their electric arc furnace as part of a significantly improved package. this government has made more progress in two months than they made over the last parliament. >> well, jonathan reynolds may have a point about the last government not really getting to gnps government not really getting to grips with this. i rather agreed with that. but bear in mind what we're talking about here is an electric arc furnace. it's considered to be much greener. it is in terms of emissions, greener, and basically what we do here is we recycle. second hand steel. now that's to not

say that second hand steel doesn't have its uses, but i'm worried, particularly at a time when the world feels less safe than it has at any point in my lifetime. that steel isn't just an industry that produces jobs and income. there's actually, i think, a strategic side to steel as well . now, joining me down as well. now, joining me down the line, expert witness roy fishwick is managing director of cleveland steel and tubes limited. and roy , i understand limited. and roy, i understand that you're the largest stockist of repurposed steel in the united kingdom. and i'm guessing that today's announcement for you is good news. >> definitely. not least of which with the political change and with the fact that basically the decisions to close the blast furnaces have already been made and in fact, that sequence of events have been set in chain. i was concerned, genuinely concerned that we'd end up with nothing. so it's certainly the case that this investment going in has ensured that we've got some steel production here, where i think there was a real

risk they'd been on, but it's still pretty puny, isn't it? >> i mean, we're still going to be a very big importer of both primary and secondary steel. >> yes. no, there's no two ways around that. but then that's a trend. as you've already pointed out, that we've been established for a very long time, and we have some good processing facility here. but in terms of primary manufacture, it's a very small amount relative to the global market. and it's quite a small amount relative to the uk requirements, particularly in certain products. >> yeah. but i mean i mean, roy, you know, good for you. and you know, i understand that your business is repurposed steel. but but surely a nation state when it's thinking about national security, surely it needs to be a producer of primary steel as well . primary steel as well. >> i would tend to agree. i think we need primary steel production. there are issues around that, because we don't actually have the raw materials that are required. so although you'd have the primary

production here, you'd still be potentially susceptible to not being able to get the raw materials that you require from elsewhere , but then equally, you elsewhere, but then equally, you would have facility, i guess, to, to stockholders to store certain amounts of material. but it's not even just, i mean, the security aspect i understand and agree with, but economically etc, we have absolutely no influence on essentially the cost of steel within the uk now. >> virtually what? because the price is determined at a global level. >> it's a it's a global. i mean, it's getting worse with steel as well. so it's a global commodity which means it's handled by global businesses as you would expect, make decisions that affect. and you made the point about production moving away from here to elsewhere. then we've got no control over the cost or the carbon. you just get the product back in according to what's available. but the other thing you're seeing globally, particularly as you mentioned, china as well, are tariffs and quotas. so the us now is quoting a tariff in nearly 50% of the cost on chinese steel. and it's

not a it's not a excuse the pun is not a global system. so if you've got countries that are putting very large tariff on, that means there's even more material to dump elsewhere. so the market is incredibly skewed. and if you're only reliant on the foreign supply, then you're fully subject to that, to that vagaries of the market. >> yeah. no. absolutely. and roy final thought you know this is a package that means the electric arc furnace will be going in in south wales. for how many years will that even be there in your view? >> i think there's there are better options in some regards with the electric arc because you can potentially change the product that it's producing, perhaps a bit more simply and actually, because it doesn't meet the full demand of the uk, it should be able to produce material that can be consumed here. >> and that should be okay, it'd be nice to see them built. that's the one thing i would say. we're still not to that

point. so yes, we've got now forward trajectory, but we do still need to see it happen. >> roy fishwick, thank you for joining me. well roy pointing out there there is something of a lifeline for the british steel industry, but it's not much of one. i'm joined on my panel today by lord monckton, hereditary peer and former conservative party political adviser, even to margaret thatcher and regular on the show, lloyd russell—moyle , show, lloyd russell—moyle, former member of parliament for brighton and hove. christopher monckton . i find it monckton. i find it extraordinary that we are not as a nation, going to produce primary steel, which is much neededin primary steel, which is much needed in many, in many military products. and that's why i'm using this argument about security. >> the second world war, during the battle of britain, we were turning out 100 spitfires a week , turning out 100 spitfires a week, and they were partly aluminium and they were partly aluminium and partly steel. we couldn't do that now, because we don't even make enough steel to do that. so we can't now make and sustain

military material for a war. it can't be done. why can't it be done? when i was 50 years ago, a cub reporter on the yorkshire post , one of the first, electric post, one of the first, electric arc furnaces in britain, was installed in sheffield, and i was taken to have a look at it and wrote up a piece about it for the paper in those days, electricity was affordable. but then along came the watermelons. the greens were red on the inside who say, oh, global warming, global warming, global warming. as though this were a problem, you'd just go outside tonight and you'd see it isn't really and therefore it became impossible to use coking coal, which is far and away the most efficient way of making steel even today , because people said, even today, because people said, oh, emissions, emissions, emissions and then said, let's have electric arc furnaces. trouble is, the price of electricity in this country is seven times that in china and russia, india and pakistan. the four major producers who are gobbung four major producers who are gobbling up the whole market,

not only in steel but also in the techno metals, the complicated things like lithium, which are much rarer. i mean, just if you wanted to have global net zero, for instance, supposing you actually meant it and the whole world, rather than just the west, committed economic hara kiri to get there, then the trouble is, you'd need 10,000 years worth of the total global current annual supply of lithium. it'sjust global current annual supply of lithium. it's just not there. and then you go to vanadium, vanadium steel 67,000 years worth , according to the finnish worth, according to the finnish geological survey, which has done a detailed survey on this without having an argument over global warming. >> it is true, you know, christopher's point is true that it's almost as if we rejoice at closing steelworks. i quoted redcar earlier because that , you redcar earlier because that, you know, we show that as a western country, we've reduced our co2 emissions since 1990 by almost 50%. but we've been

deindustrialising to do it. >> well. this is bizarrely , >> well. this is bizarrely, probably where you would agree with the green party mps that are in parliament. they have constantly called for the fact that our national account for carbon should include the imports , because at the moment, imports, because at the moment, the current system. it's a con, isn't it? is it basically means we don't we don't shut down carbon, we shut down jobs and we export the jobs all around the world, and we end up with our people jobless, without a proper national income. and so actually, there are some areas where we don't have to pit this as, as, as environmentalists versus a lot of the environmentalists have been calling for that in the first place. so first of all, we need to sort out that carbon accounting because it produces adverse effects. >> well, actually, actually, arguably, if the steel is produced in in india under lower environmental safeguards and then shipped back to the united kingdom, we're actually putting c02 kingdom, we're actually putting co2 up. you've got the higher cost of, of production emissions and the higher cost in transport

crackers. >> sometimes you can import things that are better. new zealand lamb produces less carbon than british lamb. even if you take into account the transportation costs . but but transportation costs. but but back to steel. >> back to steel. the other problem with with the steel discussion and you touched on it previously. >> your lordship is around the price of energy and we haven't sorted out our energy issues. france is investing a huge amount in new nuclear, taking a long time for them to get it on board, and also hydrogen with hydrogen furnaces going alongside . they have put they alongside. they have put they have put billions of pounds into their works around that. we have put rather meagre half £1 billion in for an electric arc furnace. there's no real prospect of hydrogen in our country. it's still years and years away and there's no real prospect of a development of nuclear power and the failure of nuclear power and the failure of nuclear has also led to the closure of aluminium smelters as well successive governments.

>> we can't just blame the last 14 years. you're quite right. we really can't. we haven't looked ahead at any of this, although the lib dems did shut down the nuclear programme and we haven't asked the candy cane question. >> go on. the candy cane question . tom sawyer goes into question. tom sawyer goes into a sweetie shop, slaps a few sticky coins on the counter and says, gee , how many candy canes can gee, how many candy canes can i get for this mess? and that's the fundamental question of economics. so if you want to shut down the steelworks in the name of saving the planet, then what you have to do is to work out supposing britain actually went from here in a straight line to net zero by 2050, which is the official target date, by how much would global temperature fall? thanks to our destroying our own economy, as we have already destroyed the steel? well, and that's the main reason why it was destroyed. >> we are a very minor emitter. >> we are a very minor emitter. >> the answer is the answer is you would reduce global temperature by 1/1000 of a celsius degree at a cost just to

d to net zero as the grid alone, according to the grid authority, you might 3 trillion sterling. >> you might. but equally there are other environmental factors that might make temperatures go up or down. final thought on this, lloyd. you've got a labour government in power. you know, a labour government that would have had mass votes of people working in manufacturing industries. that link's not there anymore, is it ? despite there anymore, is it? despite there anymore, is it? despite the tuc conference? >> well, i think this example of rolling this out as one of the first three in the first three months, this is one of the key issues that they have dealt with to salvage the best that they can. and i think your, your expert put it quite right that the decision to close the blast furnace had already been made. it couldn't have been reversed . it couldn't have been reversed. so that was the first stage that was. and so what labour have doneis was. and so what labour have done is tried to salvage, quite literally, the steel that they can. well, i tell you what, put it into the furnace. >> what is interesting is that

at the tuc conference this week, there's been a vote and the tuc have said by a narrow vote, but they've said we need to prevent oil and gas workers becoming the miners of this generation. so i think there are some very interesting games that are going on here politically. right. enough of that. in a moment we'll talk about today's prime minister's questions. i raised the issue of prisoner releases . the issue of prisoner releases. is there a danger that we let people out of prison who were career criminals, who are bound to reoffend and fill our prisons up with people who've said pretty beastly on facebook, but things and not done things. all of

well, there we are. i got called by the speaker today to ask a question in pmqs. let's have a quick look at what i said and what the response of the prime

minister, or should i say, non—response of the prime minister was some extraordinary celebratory scenes outside britain's prisons, where in some cases serious career criminals were released , and this to make were released, and this to make way for yes rioters. but equally, those who've said unpleasant things on facebook and elsewhere on social media. does the prime minister understand there is a growing feeling of anger in this country that we are living through two tier policing and a two tier justice system . justice system. >> i'm angry to be put in a position of having to release people who should be in prison, because the last government broke the prison system and the prime minister was repeatedly warned he had his own release scheme, he was repeatedly warned that he had to adopt the scheme that he had to adopt the scheme that we've put in place. the former justice minister said. if formerjustice minister said. if we don't do it, we'll have to get down on our knees and pray. the police chiefs made it absolutely clear in a letter to

him before the election that he needed to take action, saying that they wouldn't be able to discharge their duties, and saying the risk was loss of an ability to detain suspects. that means, mr speaker, an inability to arrest people committing offences. that is how bad it was. and they warned the leader of the opposition that further delays until after the general election will increase the risk significantly. what did he do? he delayed and increased the risks . risks. >> well, the prime minister was not going to answer my direct question in any way at all. and all those labour mps screaming and shouting at me, gosh, it felt like being back in the european parliament. i really rather enjoyed it. but the serious point, of course, and he's right that with a population that has exploded over the course of the last few years, the previous government did not build enough prison places, but the whole question of early release, i mean, what is the point of a sentence if people are let out after only serving 40% of it? one of the people released from one of the

northern prisons yesterday had wait for it 109 previous convictions, so that person, i would say, is bound to reoffend. well, i'm joined down the line by gaynor bell and your son, stefan bell was murdered at the age of 22, and you were a knife crime campaigner gaynor. and you know, the guy that did this was actually released early, wasn't . he? >> yes, yes . >> yes, yes. »- >> yes, yes. >> but not only does .

>> but not only does. he, i foresaw that he'd reoffend again, which he has done. he's re—offended, for a violent crime. this guy to me is somebody that terrifies me to be on the streets, because before the age of 20, he committed something like 19 crimes. that was before he killed my son. he's reoffended. he was locked up again. he's been locked up for two years. i didn't find out until the parole hearing, which i was invited to attend, which he would not face me again. that's another subject, but not a facing. you know, the victims. and i found out he, the home secretary, had to make a decision whether the parole board were right in their decision of letting him out again. and the parole board decided he was going to come out, and he should have been let out, and he should have been let out, probably on the 26th of august. i'm presuming now, because i haven't been told that he's still locked up. but going back to letting prisoners out early, the probation are struggling now. how are they going to do the risk evaluations

on them? you know, they're just not going to be able to handle it. there's going to be more and more violence. can i just say when we had the covid on how quickly did they get something together building wise or whatever? okay, they weren't secure, but i'm sure they could, you know, make secure units very quickly. they knew this was happening, the government knew this was happening. and we should have made provisions years ago for it. >> i think, gaynor, you make that point very powerfully, very emotionally and very well. i emotionally and very well. and i thank you for joining emotionally and very well. and i thank you forjoining me on the thank you for joining me on the programme. well, gaynor makes a very points there, didn't very strong points there, didn't she? good point. she made she? what a good point. she made that came to covid, that when it came to covid, suddenly were nightingale suddenly there were nightingale hospitals springing the hospitals springing up. the government a government thought it was a priority. and starmer is right to criticise the last 14 years. but something looks very wrong about yesterday. about what happened yesterday. i think celebrations outside prisons, champagne corks, spliffs it looks spliffs being lit. it looks awful, lloyd. >> look awful and it >> it does look awful and it looks awful. i think on two fronts. one is because people then don't trust the sentence that someone gets, and two, they see people who seem to be celebrating , someone else's celebrating, someone else's misfortune. and so that is the problem now. but but that doesn't solve, you know , that is doesn't solve, you know, that is a problem, but it doesn't solve the issue that we have, which is prisons, overcrowded . clearly, prisons, overcrowded. clearly, you need to build more prisons,

but clearly you also need to be more didactic in the kind of sentences that you are offering people. at the moment. we seem to for violent crimes as we've just heard there, it seems to be people are let out. and for financial crimes or for, you know, kind of you talked about facebook crimes that this those things seem to constantly we're passing laws to make them aggravated offences. what does aggravated offences. what does aggravated offences. what does aggravated offence really mean if you're going to cut the sentence in half anyway, let's actually get to the basis where we can properly, properly give people serious punishments when they're violent. but for those who aren't violent, i think there's an element also of community payback, which includes embarrassment and i know that sounds a bit draconian, but i think if you are in and not not just community embarrassment, not just community embarrassment, that's in the next door town, in the town that you live in, the town that your family live in, where if you do something wrong, yes , you should be painting the

yes, you should be painting the railings for lloyd and you should. you should, because embarrassment often stops people doing things more than more than punishment. >> no, no. you see, we do agree on some things, christopher. should people be going to prison because they've said beastly things on social media? >> no, either you mean it about free speech or you don't. and i think that one of the. if you'll forgive me, lloyd, one of the problems with the left is that because they're wrong about everything, they want to censor free speech, otherwise they wouldn't want to censor it because they'd be happy to debate it. >> these laws have come in under the conservative party. >> they're just as bad. >> they're just as bad. >> i mean, i'm talking about the left, which includes the conservatives. >> well, yes, but for you , yes. >> well, yes, but for you, yes. yes. the problem. >> i mean, if i were to go and say a quiet prayer within 200 yards of the baby butchering clinic in bristol, well, that's a matter of opinion. >> that's a matter of opinion, christopher. let's get that. >> let's get let's get back to the main issue here, which is that abortion is a legal issue. >> just to be clear.

>> just to be clear. >> i mean, i do when i was when i was at 10 downing street, there were approximately 40,000 prisoners on the estate throughout britain. >> now it's 100,000 coming up. >> now it's100,000 coming up. and the growth is very interesting. it's because governments go on churning out laws to make more and more things illegal, and because a lot of these things are not crimes of violence, where you lock them up because otherwise they are a risk to the public. and that was the story of this poor lady who's lost her son. so tragically. and i think, you know, god, god bless for her standing up and trying to bring the politicians to some sort of sense about this. >> but no, she was very, very logical in everything she said, absolutely, absolutely, entirely right. >> and so what's now got to happenis >> and so what's now got to happen is that it really is an emergency. literally every day the home office gets figures on how many more people can we shoehorn in to this grossly overloaded prison system. and it's partly, again, it comes back to mass immigration. it's

partly that those who are not, those who are described by the pfison those who are described by the prison service as bame, are more prone to offending. and so that means you get more of them, they're more prone to being locked up. >> so, yeah, i mean, i mean, i've just looked at all the figures. >> that is a slightly separate debate. but i tell you what is interesting is there are 10,000 foreign people in british prisons . and i said yesterday to prisons. and i said yesterday to estonia has offered to, i know for a fee funny enough, i looked at that and it would be cheaper to put british prisoners in estonia than keep them here. and they wouldn't like estonian prisons. no, they wouldn't like them at all. >> you wouldn't need to do it for british prisoners. but what you could do is to say, for foreign prisoners, that we can't return back to their country because the country is too dangerous. we do have a third country for you to go. that wouldn't be totally out of order. but i do think we also need to think about what we do, which is that bit between prison

and innocence. i do think that it's quite right that if you go and harass women going into to terminate a pregnancy, if you harass them, there should be some punishment for you because it's wrong to do. i mean, i think it's sickening. it's one of the most sickening things that you can do if you're harassing women going in for health care . health care. >> that's not really health care though, is it? >> it is health care. we're not debating a baby, gentlemen. >> we are not. not a baby until it's born. debating abortion. we could debate. we could debate whether 24 weeks should come to 22, which is my view. we'll do it another evening. >> yeah, but, but but there needs to be some sort of punishment for these people who break rules that society says aren't allowed. but what we can't just do is automatically assume the only stick that we have in our armoury is prison, because otherwise we get to a situation where actually in britain, we have a higher prison population, but we also have more re—offending than we do in most european countries. most european other countries get it right. >> what other countries are doing is they're sending their criminals to the southern border of the us, and they're getting

in there . and i don't want any in there. and i don't want any europe, no european countries. i don't think. >> no, no europeans may be happening elsewhere. i don't know. final quick thought, christopher, if i can you know , christopher, if i can you know, lloyd makes the point that actually there are some crimes where prison is not really the answer and that actually community service humiliation in your local community. that's a good idea, isn't it? >> well, making folk work in pubuc >> well, making folk work in public to help out and tidy up their communities and paint out their communities and paint out the graffiti and. et cetera, et cetera . that is. unfortunately, cetera. that is. unfortunately, it's almost as expensive as prison. and the problem is the country is bust and so what's what's now got to happen is that, first of all, there's got to be a debate of the sort we're having now about who should go to prison . if i pray silently in to prison. if i pray silently in such a way that i'm not disturbing anyone anywhere near a baby butchering clinic, then we're not having any more of that. but if, on the other hand, of that i go and cause violence, or i do drug offences, or i do

firearms offences, those are the people you've got to lock them in prison because the primary purpose it is, but it is protect the public from the dangers . the public from the dangers. >> well, there's an element of punishment here, right? i'm drawing stumps. it's close of play drawing stumps. it's close of play on that particular debate in a moment we'll discuss another debate. yes. it was trump v harris last night. and i think the consensus is that harris rather better than many

well, if you were up at 2:00 this morning, you would have watched perhaps the debate between harris and trump if you weren't. here's a little snapshot for you. >> i actually have the endorsement of 200 republicans who have formally worked with president bush, mitt romney , and president bush, mitt romney, and john mccain, his former chief of staff of four star general has said he has contempt for the constitution of the united states in springfield, they're eating the dogs.

>> the people that came in there eating the cats, they're eating, they're eating the pets of the people that live there . this is people that live there. this is the one that weaponized, not me. she weaponized. i probably took a bullet to the head because of the things that they say about me. they talk about democracy. i'm a threat to democracy. >> well, there's some of the highlights. and you know, it doesn't matter what trump does. he always grabs the headlines. they read him the dogs, they read him the cats. i promise you, as with everything else , he you, as with everything else, he says, it will prove to be true, ihave says, it will prove to be true, i have no doubt. and in fact, when he was president, he actually signed an order to make it illegal in america to eat dogs or cats. but that's by the by. but i think and i'm joined by. but i think and i'm joined by pablo ohana, election campaign strategist and advisor to harris. i think a lot of people thought that being off script , harris would fall flat script, harris would fall flat on her face. that didn't happen, did it? >> no, it certainly did not. it was an extraordinary performance. she commanded the

debate from the second she walked onto the stage, and she didn't just win the debate. she finished his campaign. it was an absolutely resounding defeat, it was the best debate performance i've seen. his worst? her best, frankly, i think it's over for him. i was on his channel two days ago, and i said she would eviscerate him and boy, did she. she was prepared. she was disciplined , clear, coherent. disciplined, clear, coherent. she debated as a prosecutor. it's not surprising, you know, contrasting her vision to take america forward, turning the page on his division. it was an absolute masterclass in death by absolute masterclass in death by a thousand paper cuts from kamala harris. >> what surprised me was trump's best line was, you're saying all these things, but you've been there for three and a half years. and he delivered that at the end of the debate and not at the end of the debate and not at the beginning. that really surprised me. >> yeah, it surprised me too, actually. and i thought as a strategist, i thought, that's your best line of attack . and it your best line of attack. and it came way too late. too many people would have switched off by that point. but in general, you know, he was hunched over. he was looking down. he couldn't face kamala, you know, he was

asked about immigration and he talked about crowd sizes. and then he went to world war iii and then back to crowd sizes and cats and dogs. it was just it was chaotic and it was all over the place. >> well, that's what donald trump is. pablo, thank you for joining us. now, a very strong pro harris view there. not surprisingly , thank you for surprisingly, thank you for joining us this evening on the channel joining us this evening on the channel, christopher, i don't think it was an overwhelming win for harris. i think it's more of a score draw because i think on some of the big policy issues, trump is still ahead, but on the economy and inflation, he scored several blows and there's no way that harris is going to find that harris is going to find that easy to deal with because you know, as he eventually said, she is the incumbent. >> what the heck's been going on.and >> what the heck's been going on. and you know, biden did start the campaign by lying about the rate of inflation at the end of the trump era. and they seem to lie with great facility politics and politics does a bit of that, if i may. >> quick thought , lloyd, on last night. >> i think it was also about expectations. the expectations for kamala was not that high, actually, and the expectations

for trump to some extent, even though he's not the incumbent , though he's not the incumbent, he is the incumbent in tv debates because he's done quite a few of them now. and this was her first rolling out, and he underperformed clearly. and she overperformed, you know , overperformed, you know, performed well. if they do another debate that will be they may that will be a real teller. but if they leave it like this, i think she will have the spring in her step. >> i think that's probably true because she did as you say, she she overperformed against expectations. now a couple of quick thoughts. what the farage the european union founded on the european union founded on the free movement of goods and services and people . and services and people. and suddenly the germans are saying, oh no, no, no, no, no, we're having none of that. we couldn't give a what the echr court in strasbourg says. we're bringing back full border controls. is this the beginning of i mean, we had brexit. is this the beginning of the fraying of the european project, as we've known it for nearly 70 years? >> yes, because free movement is

essential to the project. the whole idea , as we are all whole idea, as we are all citizens of a single dictatorship, and we should all love the dictators in practice, the moment you have to impose border controls, this has a huge advantage for us, because the reason why there are so many people arriving at calais and coming across is they're not stopped at any of the internal eu borders. within schengen, increasing numbers of countries are now thinking of working on these lines. sweden, even is thinking of doing this. >> so you're a great europhile. this is a big blow to the project. >> well, it was never free movement of people. it was free movement of people. it was free movement of people. it was free movement of workers. but, well, yes, but that's that's become workers and their dependents. >> yes. >> yes. >> which turned into that . but i >> which turned into that. but i actually think that it is returning to what britain really is, a view of the eu was we never got rid of our border controls and the idea that you now have technology that can process people quite quickly means that you could have borders that people don't really recognise very much , recognise very much, particularly if you are not travelling by car and roads. so

much, but particularly when you're travelling by aeroplane and train. and i think that it's probably overegged that this is the end of the european union. germany will find a technical solution. >> it's the end . but i'm saying >> it's the end. but i'm saying it is a very major blow to what everybody in brussels and strasbourg. the great thing about the european union is that they always manage to work out a fix and a fudge for now. now, quick thought on this. in australia, the australian prime minister is proposing a ban. by the way, australia loves to ban everything, but they're proposing a ban on social media for under 16 seconds. and this phone , this is a barbie phone. phone, this is a barbie phone. it's not mine. i can assure you. but this phone is selling like hotcakes in britain. because you know what? it's a phone. you make phone calls, you send messages. it doesn't have access to social media. and a lot of british parents are finding that quite attractive. i'm going to get a very quick thought from my panel get a very quick thought from my panel. is it possible to ban social media for under 16 and is it desirable?

>> i don't think it's desirable, and i don't think it's possible to have outright bans for under 16 seconds. but what i think you can do is limit it the way i think, the idea that a young person can only access social media when they go on the home computer with mum or dad looking over their shoulder, because what we want to do is train young people up on how to use social media. so the danger is if you ban it completely, then suddenly when they turn 16 or 18, then they are in a lake of sharks. what you need is step by step introduction, just like you do with lots of other things in life. >> and we want kids out playing football and having fun, don't we? rather than being on their phones on social media teens on this one, if they want social media, they should have it. >> and why? free speech again and the parents job is to make sure that they're taught how to use it responsibly and what not to do with it. and i know several parents who have this problem now. their solution is not, no, you can't have your phone. it is. please don't visit pornhub and things like that. please just be sensible. so i

think we mustn't try to do as the communists used to do and put the state in the place of the parents. parents have a responsibility to bring up their children properly, and if they bnng children properly, and if they bring up their children properly, why shouldn't they have social media at any age that their parents think it's okay? >>i okay? >> ihave okay? >> i have to say folks, i just do not think it's possible to ban social media for under 16 seconds, but i understand what the aussie pm albanese is saying, that there's nothing worse than seeing kids 1112 just obsessed with their phones and not out having fun and doing what they should be doing. if only all parents were as good and as dedicated as christopher thinks they should be, and they're not. in a moment. are we going to back british farming? are we putting enough money in? and does it make sense for huge five square mile farms to be built on the verges of

brexit britain has not talked enough about farming and the direction we want it to take. after all, for nearly half a century it was brussels that really decided how agriculture was to be managed. well, it did come up today in the house of commons. here's what was said. >> today is back british farming day. can he therefore confirm , day. can he therefore confirm, therefore, whether he will be adopting the nfu's recent proposal to enshrine a national food security target in law? >> the prime minister >> the prime minister >> well, food security is really important. i'm glad he has raised that. we have talked to the nfu about this and rural issues are really important and thatis issues are really important and that is what we fought the election on why we've got a lot of rural constituencies sitting behind me now, but continue to talk to the nfu. we do take food security very, very seriously how. >> now. >> food security, let's not con ourselves because in two world wars, german submarines , very

wars, german submarines, very nearly in 1917 very nearly beat us. so we've never actually been in modern times , fully in modern times, fully self—sufficient, but but this is about priorities . and i about priorities. and i mentioned earlier on before the break, the cottam solar farm, five square miles of what would be really quite good agricultural land. lloyd what you know, farming's ours. agricultural land. lloyd what you know, farming's ours . we're you know, farming's ours. we're in control of it. there are always rows about budgets, and the nfu are asking for a massive uplift in what government spends in agricultural. well, we don't call it subsidy. we call it sort of environmental targets, are we right? is ed miliband right to build all these huge solar farms? >> well , farmers and land have >> well, farmers and land have always been a trade off between different uses of it . whether different uses of it. whether you're going to mine something in that piece of land, whether you're going to farm that piece of land, that's a fair point. the problem is that we don't have a national land strategy

about where we want different bits of land to. there are some solar farms that you can build and still farm a certain percentage underneath them with animal, with animals, there are other areas where it's completely impossible to do a mixed, a mixed kind of environment. there needs to be a proper strategy to say what level of food production do we want in this country. let's then provide the subsidies to do that. the subsidies that the last government brought in focused far too much on getting farmers to do things, you know, kind of hedgerows. et cetera . et kind of hedgerows. et cetera. et cetera. and not really enough on producing the amounts of food that we wanted. >> well, i mean, boris johnson of course. christopher famously at the conference build back beaven at the conference build back beaver, we're going to rewild 30% of british farmland. we've really, since brexit, not quite known what to do with farming, have we? >> no, that's because we've got used to it not being a free market. and here with lloyd we have oh let's have the socialist solution. let's have a central

national plan. you know, flanders and swann would have great fun with that. >> now, what you get, you get what you know, you don't. >> what you do is i was talking to the charming local farmer just down the road from us, who's just sold up to an even bigger local farmer, and he's retired. but, you can put a row of solar panels along the northern margin of each field along the hedge. it doesn't take any ground from the field. and if you do that on every field that you want to have it on, you can get far more solar power out of the farmland than ever you could by having these huge acreages where it only takes, as we've seen in texas recently, one tornado comes through and we do get those in britain. one heavy storm and the whole lot gets smashed. you have them along the northern field margins, then that's not wasting the land. you can get lots of electricity and they're very easy to maintain if they're on a continuous line. >> we all agree with that. but the question is why? but nobody suggested it until now. >> no? well enjoy it. >> no? well enjoy it. >> why are farmers choosing at the moment to abandon some bits

of land and convert them to solar farms because of the socialist subsidies? no, because they get more money. well, they have subsidies for agriculture and the socialist subsidies for. >> no, this is solar farms in britain , of all things. i mean, britain, of all things. i mean, it's a standing joke among international comedians that britain has a newspaper called all manufactured in bloom in china . china. >> all the panels. >> all the panels. >> yes, but there does need to be a framework in which people operate. and at the moment there is no framework. >> you don't have to if you want to put a row of solar panels on your northern field margin, you can do it now. farmers out there, you'll make lots of money and you won't lose any farmers. >> i'm going to come back to the politics of this because one thing starmer said that was true was that the labour party are now representing more rural areas than they've ever done in the history of the labour party . the history of the labour party. let's go to neil parish, former conservative member of

parliament. neil what on earth? good evening. what on earth should our policy on farming be? no one seems to know. >> well, let them produce food, nigel. that's always been my motto. and the trouble is, what you're doing with these solar farms. you're taking out very good land. if it's marginal land, not going to be able to produce too much food, well, then it's probably not the end of the world. if you put solar panels on it. but when you've got sort of grade one and two land that's being used for it, where you can grow good vegetables, good cereals, all of these things, it's essential we grow in this country because we're a temperate climate and we need to grow food. so i mean, i think in the end, the government's got to come down and decide, do you want energy? do you want food? you want a mixture. but we need to be able to keep keep the land that's good for production. and then have the only trouble with the idea of putting solar panels all around the edges of fields. it's quite a good idea. the trouble is, it's all the cabling and everything else you see, they much rather have a huge solar farm. put all the infrastructure

in and it becomes like an industrial site . and that's the industrial site. and that's the problem with it all. and i'm really keen to see good food produced in this country. really keen to see good food produced in this country . and i, produced in this country. and i, inoficed produced in this country. and i, i noticed today that keir starmer sort of really evaded the question, did he not on was he going to have a plan for food security. because yes, we're not going to grow bananas and pineapples, but we can grow plenty of wheat, plenty of vegetables and plenty of potatoes. all these things we should not be importing food that others, perhaps across the world, could do with better than we do. because, you know, there are still people hungry in the world. and all the time, you see, we're taking land out of production. even the environmental policies, some of them are fine, but some of them are just reducing production. and i've been all about this all the time i was in parliament. i'm doing a podcast now. we can do both. that is produce, food and environment. so i have kept exactly the same tune. >> nigel neil, you got the ad in articulate as ever. thank you. i'm going to say thank you to my panel i'm going to say thank you to my panel. we're over for the

evening. and neil parish, the most famous farmer in the country. i suppose, for many reasons. jacob rees—mogg joins me. what are you discussing this evening? >> i'm going to be talking about tata steel and this bailout, which all comes about because we've got mad green policies and thousands of people are going to lose their jobs. we're not going to make proper steel, and we're going to import it from other countries, and then we're going to be protectionist. it's all bonkers. and john redwood's joining me. >> oh, well, i'm sure he'll i'm sure he'll be very strong on that particular point. what a shame. lloyd's not staying on. well that's it we're done . we're well that's it we're done. we're done for the evening. i'm back with you tomorrow. first, though, let's get the all important weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> evening time for your weather update from the met office here on gb news. pretty cold out there this evening. temperatures are going to fall further through the night. yes, there will be a touch of frost,

particularly in parts of the north in the countryside, thanks to the winds coming around this area of low pressure all the way down from the arctic . hence why down from the arctic. hence why we do have the chill at the moment. there's a fair few showers still around this evening, but for many they'll tend to fade. we'll keep some going. in northern scotland, a few for the north of northern ireland, northern parts of wales, northwest england, but elsewhere many areas dry and clear, and the winds easing a touch overnight, which is why those temperatures will tumble to down 4 or 5 degrees in towns and cities. but rural spots , and cities. but rural spots, particularly in the northern half of the uk, likely to be close to or a little bit below freezing to start thursday. so yes, a chill in the air tomorrow morning and there will still be showers in the air as well coming in across northern scotland. still a fairly brisk wind, but not as lively and not as gusty as the winds have been through the day today. those breezes will bring a few showers across northern parts of northern ireland. plenty packing in across wales , although the in across wales, although the south coast probably dry and a good part of england having a dry, fine and sunny start to thursday, albeit with that chill

in the air. now, as we go through the day, we'll see the clouds bubbling up a little bit, but i don't think we'll see as many showers as we've seen through the course of today. still plenty for wales and a few more coming into south wales, england and across northern scotland. but much of southern scotland. but much of southern scotland. dry and large parts of eastern england and the midlands also staying dry and dodging the showers with some sunny spells. but despite a bit of sunshine, temperatures on the chilly side similar values to today , but at similar values to today, but at least the winds tomorrow will be a little lighter. lighter still on friday and even again likely to see more of a frost on friday morning. much of the country , morning. much of the country, though, will be dry and fine on friday. we will see rain coming into the north—west, the winds picking up here as well. that's a sign of a change. things turning wetter across the north into the weekend. staying dry in the south and slowly warming up a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb. >> news

>> well . >> well. >> well. >> hello. good evening. it's me , >> hello. good evening. it's me, jacob rees—mogg on state of the nafion jacob rees—mogg on state of the nation tonight , as port talbot nation tonight, as port talbot steel workers brace themselves for 2500 redundancies and 300 coming later, the government has announced half £1 billion in subsidies. but surely the only solution to save our steel is to stop net zero. in more evidence that the labour honeymoon period ended before it even began, the government has scuppered the strongest economic growth in the g7. strongest economic growth in the 67. it strongest economic growth in the g7. it was bequeathed by the tories, but now the economy stalls for the second month in a row. and speaking of destroying the economy, as labour presses on with the renters reform bill, landlords are already warning this will push up rents by as much as 10%. plus the king's first return to australia, as the monarch has already prompted questions about cultural sensitivities after buckingham palace bizarrely drops the word walkabout to avoid offence. state of the nation starts now