how. conference in birmingham now. unfortunately, this weekend camilla is unable to be here due to personal family matters. we send her our best wishes and of course she'll be right back here next week with a sit down. you won't want to miss boris johnson now. throughout the show today i'll be joined by all four remaining tory leadership candidates and grill them equally over their policies and hopes for the future of the conservative party. well, this is a tight race with all to play for. could some surprises be in store.7 elsewhere, prime minister keir starmer has had another rough week as fresh allegations have emerged over his fashion faux pas and paid for getaways. will this linger over the government? i'll be speaking to the man that some are calling the man that some are calling the real deputy prime minister, chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, pat mcfadden . and lancaster, pat mcfadden. and this week, the spectator alleged that the ravens are leaving the tower with long term spin. doctor of nigel farage gawain towler, being dismissed from his

post. i'll be speaking to the man behind the charge to professionalise reform, uk chairman zia yusuf. well, we've got 90 minutes of punchy politics ahead. don't go anywhere . anywhere. well, normally, of course , we well, normally, of course, we would review the papers at this section in the programme, but my goodness me, it's a very packed show. so we're going to kick right off with our first interview. i'm delighted to be joined by the shadow home secretary, tory leadership candidate and mp for braintree, james cleverly. james, thanks for joining us here. thanks for forjoining us here. thanks for being first up on this programme. i'm just going to dive straight in. you're a nice quy- dive straight in. you're a nice guy. everyone says you're a nice guy- guy. everyone says you're a nice guy. are you just too nice to be conservative party leader? >> well, i wasn't too nice to be home secretary. too nice to be foreign too secretary, nice to

be chairman of the conservative party. when i was chairman of the conservative party, i helped win a record result at the 2019 general election, when i was foreign secretary, i was able to completely rebalance uk foreign policy away from europe towards to emerging markets. when i was home secretary, i got immigration numbers finally coming down. so there's nothing wrong with being nice. but more importantly, i get stuff done now talking about getting stuff done, i want to ask if there's something you can say that the labour party has done in government that you agree with, that they've done well. >> is there anything of the last three months you can think of? i genuinely struggle, i genuinely struggle, they have been such disappointment. >> and the lesson we need to take from that is that they went into this general election trying to say as little as possible. they made no commitments. they didn't have a vision. they don't have a philosophy. they don't have a ethos, and therefore they're

lost in government and their behaviour is hypocritical. >> is there really nothing you can find in the entire agenda of this government that you might vote for, that you might be in favour of, even in principle? >> well, look, if. if wes streeting is genuinely able to reform the national health service, i think that's something we should look at. if they are able to drive welfare reform, that's something we should look at. but the fact is, i really struggle. i will look closely , but at the moment they closely, but at the moment they have just been such a massive disappointment. >> now, a lot of people would have said that the last 14 years were equally a fairly large disappointment. can you name what the most conservative thing the government did was in the last 14 years in power? >> well, i'll tell you, one of the things that i'm most proud of that i did working very closely with ben wallace, we persuaded nato allied countries to follow suit when we donated main battle tanks to ukraine in self defence against russia. i'm very, very pleased that we were

the first country to donate anti—tank missile systems , those anti—tank missile systems, those nlaw missile systems, to ukraine. so i know the last few years have been very difficult, but there is much that i'm very, very proud of that we did that was staunchly but but that's your number one answer. >> giving tanks to ukraine. of the whole 14 years that your party was in government. oh no. no. >> hang on. you know, you asked me for an example that was an example. the point is, i mean, the reason i'm so passionate about making sure we spend 3% of gdp on defence is that if you are not well defended, if you are not well defended, if you are not well defended, if you are not able to defend yourself and support your friends and allies around the world, any other plans that you might want to put in place? >> a lot of conservative members might say that defence wasn't a high point of the last 14 years of government. >> well, as i say, my view and you asked for my view was that we demonstrated resolve. we demonstrated commitment. and as leader of the conservative party and as a future prime minister, that's the kind of thing i'd emulate. okay. doing what is right, not just what is easy.

okay. standing up for peace through strength rather than just crossing your fingers and hoping. >> now, what was the worst thing the last government did? the most left wing policy in your view, that the last government pursued? >> well, i think i think our our collective response to covid took us into a place that naturally, conservatives should not go . we became a much less not go. we became a much less liberal. we, you know, the government expanded in its scope and its reach. it took us into some very difficult terrain, and i think we've paid the price for that, and we should learn from that. we mustn't do that again . that. we mustn't do that again. so whatever response, whether it be to another pandemic or to an economic downturn, cannot be tax and subsidise tax and subsidise, restrict and restrain. we need to liberate. we need to liberate businesses, lower tax , less businesses, lower tax, less regulation. we need to liberate people, letting them live their lives rather than dictating to them. >> now this is the last question for looking backwards, but, of

the last five conservative prime ministers who was the best? >> no, this is this is this is great for generating headlines. they all had their strengths and weaknesses. i had a chance to work with with all of them. so surely you should know who is the best. so the point is, you learn from all of them. but ultimately, this is this is about me putting myself to be a prime minister of the uk. so i, i look at what worked, i look at what worked. >> i'm going to press you for an answer. >> who was going to get one? >> who was going to get one? >> you're not going to say who was the best because. >> no, because that would that that it's great for generating headlines, but it's not that useful. so as i say, i've learnt i've worked closely with them all. i've seen what has worked and what has worked less well. i am thinking about how i would be prime minister, how i would prioritise. reform of our public services, how i would reduce tax, how i would ease the burden of regulation, how i would liberate people to live their

best lives . so i liberate people to live their best lives. so i am liberate people to live their best lives . so i am looking best lives. so i am looking forward, not backwards. >> you've spoken a lot about how you want to cut taxes and reduce spending. why then, do you support a universal welfare benefit for everyone over the age of 65? >> well, the point is the labour government has been deeply dishonest about its rationale for doing this. it has done it with no notice and with no mandate. there are constituents in my, constituency. there are people in my constituency who relied on that winter fuel allowance to buy their fuel oil for the winter, and they've discovered very, very late, too late for them to do anything about it. they will not be getting it. it's deeply unfair. now, how we look at supporting older people. there is a legitimate conversation to be had, but lying about the rationale for stripping this at no notice totally unacceptable and has put a lot of older people in a very, very difficult place. >> do you think there's a risk here that the conservative party starts attacking the labour

party from the left, saying they're not spending enough and that that becomes the attack of this government? that's that's perverse. no, no. >> others might , perverse. no, no. >> others might, but perverse. no, no. >> others might , but that's not >> others might, but that's not my attack. the point is their their proposed solution would actually be more expensive, more costly . and the broader point is costly. and the broader point is they were really dishonest. they hid their proposals from the british people through the general election. they they claimed they had to do it whilst simultaneously giving a £9 billion pay rise to their union mates. it's the dishonesty and the hypocrisy which is the real sin here. >> now, you were the first foreign secretary this country has ever had of african heritage. from that perspective, what did you make of what david lammy had to say at the united nafions lammy had to say at the united nations earlier this week, talking about his perspective as a black man? >> well, it's all about david, isn't it? i cannot believe the uk foreign secretary went to the united nations in a debate about

ukraine, and somehow managed to make it about himself. the labour party, i think, are really bruised by the fact that it was the conservatives who had the first, second and third female prime minister, the first asian prime minister, the first black foreign secretary, the first muslim home secretary. they hate it because they like that tokenistic identity politics. we just get on with the job. that's all i've ever done. the job. that's all i've ever done . david is desperately done. david is desperately trying to make it about identity politics. when i was foreign secretary, i made it about uk's national interest on the world stage. that's the difference between saying stuff and doing stuff. i've always focused on doing stuff rather than just saying stuff. >> now, one of the reasons why the conservatives lost, and this seems to be agreed across the board, is that the party appeared incompetent in government. how do you prove competence in opposition when the most senior elected conservative with any power in this country is now the mayor of the tees valley? >> well, we've got to recognise

that the british people kicked us out for a reason, and they kicked us out because of the gulf between what we said and what we did. so we need to promise less, but deliver on everything. we promise . and we everything. we promise. and we need to make sure that in the areas where we do still run stuff, whether it be on the tees valley or county councils or district councils that we deliver well, which is why the integration between westminster and our local government base is so important. how we run our own party so important. how we run our own party is absolutely key. if we act professionally within the party, people will have confidence that the party will act professionally when we get back in. >> just finally, the leadership contest of course, is determined. the week of the us presidential presidential election. were you an american citizen? would you back trump or kamala harris? >> i'm not an american citizen. i've worked with the trump administration. i've worked with kamala harris when she was vice president of the us , as leader president of the us, as leader of the conservative party and as a future prime minister, i will make sure i work with whoever the american people choose. >> but you won't back either

one, because i'm not an american. >> tom. >> tom. >> well, there we go. james cleverly i tried to get an answer from you on that last one even answer from you on that last one ever. the diplomat wants a foreign secretary always foreign secretary james cleverly there. conservative leadership candidate. now, coming up next, the tory leadership candidate, tom tugendhat will be joining us live at this stand. stay tuned

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show with me . tom harwood show with me. tom harwood putting the tom in. tom. well, i'm delighted to be joined now by another tom. tom tugendhat, a tory leadership candidate and the member of parliament for tunbridge. tom, first of all, thanks for joining us. tunbridge. tom, first of all, thanks forjoining us. i'm going to ask one question to kick off. were you ever in the army? >> i may have been tom. i may

have been. i have to say that's the best intro i've had to camilla's show. she's she's an absolute star. but i think putting the tom in tom is the way we need to look at this. >> well, marvellous. >> well, marvellous. >> i mean, the reason i ask the question, of course, is that your campaign focuses heavily on the idea of serving on the idea of your past in the armed forces. does it lean too heavily on that? no. >> i think it focuses really on leadership, actually. and that's the thing that we've been crying out for in this country, because look at the challenges that we're facing around the world. >> look at the events that you're seeing. you've reported on them in the middle east. look at the challenges that we're seeing across europe. look at the way that germany is really struggling today. these are really crises of leadership. these are choices that people have made that are the wrong choices. and we need to make the right choices. we need to invest in our country. we need to build more houses. we need to build more houses. we need to build more infrastructure. we need to generate cheaper energy. we need to make sure we are leading a conservative revolution in this country that delivers for the british people. that's why i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on trust because we need to deliver. >> now all of the other candidates in this race have

held senior cabinet posts. you, of course, have been in government , but only attending government, but only attending cabinet rather than being a full cabinet minister. does it hurt you that you have the least government experience of any of the candidates? >> i'm not going to hold against them their lack of experience on them their lack of experience on the front line in combat. i'm not going to hold against them for their lack of experience in serious operational theatres like iraq and afghanistan. i'm not going to hold against them. they're you know, their record of the past few years. my job is to set forward my record and demonstrate what i can offer this country. and what i'm championing is the leadership that we need to make sure that this country goes in a different direction. >> what do you mean when you say you're not going to hold against them the record of the last four years? >> well, i'm not going to. what i'm going to do is i'm going to set a set. >> are you implying that that record was not a good one? >> i'm what i'm saying is that we need to look to the future and to the leadership that this country needs. now. it's for you and for other journalists to judge our record. my job is to make sure we're setting out the leadership for the future. now, you've already reported on many

aspects of the last four years, aspects of the last four years, as we both know what we now need to do is make sure we make the next four years different so that we are actually ready for government in four years time. because the truth is just look at what was happening in liverpool. the reporting from liverpool. the reporting from liverpool demonstrated what we all know. this labour government is not fit to govern this country. they have demonstrated themselves to be venal, vindictive and they have demonstrated themselves to have interests that serve themselves, not the british people. we need to be ready in four years time because we need a conservative prime minister, and i'm standing to be that prime minister. >> i'm going to briefly look back over the last 14 years. i want you to name the single most conservative thing. the last 14 years of conservative or conservative led government has done education reform. >> look at the way in which we trust the british people. when we trust the british people, we get results that transform opportunities for everyone. by trusting teachers, by trusting school parents to choose, we free people. and freedom is the underpinning of isn't it telling that the most conservative thing of the last 14 years of

conservative government happened dunng conservative government happened during a coalition with the liberal democrats? well, it happened under a conservative prime minister and with conservative visionaries. the fact that there were lib dems who happened to be watching doesn't actually change the reality . what we need to make reality. what we need to make sure is we are delivering conservative policies like that. so we're transforming health, we're transforming energy, we're transforming the infrastructure of our country and actually building the opportunity for us all. >> now, what was the least conservative thing that the last 14 years of government oversaw? >> well, it was vaccine passports, and that's why i voted against it, because frankly , freedom isn't just in frankly, freedom isn't just in the good times. it's when things are difficult . that's when we are difficult. that's when we need the freedom to challenge, to change, and to have a different perspective on what our country can offer. that's why i have always championed freedom. that's why i've defended freedom, not just here, but i've literally fought on the frontline of freedom for our country and why i've always called out the dictators in moscow in beijing or tehran who've tried to silence us, and they've sanctioned me for it. >> now, you mentioned vaccine passports, which you voted against. you also voted against

the national insurance increase that was brought in and then reversed under the last government . why do you think, government. why do you think, despite these issues , you still despite these issues, you still have somewhat of a reputation as being on the left of the conservative party? >> well, that's really a question for you, tom. i'm just a conservative, right? what i do is i champion freedom, i champion opportunity, i champion families because those are conservative values. those are the building blocks of freedom. that's how we achieve the results and the opportunities and frankly, the growth that this country has been lacking for too many years now. i have always said that we need to make sure people keep more of their own wealth. that's why i didn't support the rise in national insurance charges. and i'm delighted that the government eventually followed my lead there. and that's why i've also championed full expensing, another policy where businesses can keep the money they invest so they get better productivity and other policies. >> i mean, you've backed many tax cuts and you were staunch on vaccine passports . you must have vaccine passports. you must have anidea vaccine passports. you must have an idea about why some of your colleagues think that you're

more centrist than, than others. >> well, i think it's i think people like the fact that i'm able to talk to people from across the political spectrum, and i'm proud of that. look, i am very proud of the fact that i have really, really close friends who used to vote reform, but who are coming back to support me. i've got really good friends who have supported the lib dems but are coming back to support me. i've got friends who voted green or labour. we need to make sure we are making converts, not enemies. and that means making sure we're attracting people who see the conservative values that we champion and recognise them as their own , whether they used to their own, whether they used to support reform or whether they used to support any other party. >> now, you've mentioned a few times in this conversation about building things, building infrastructure , building houses. infrastructure, building houses. what do you make of the labour party's proposal that they announced last week ? end of announced last week? end of planning passports, where there will almost be an automatic right to build on brownfield land in principle? is that a goodidea? >> well, in principle, making sure that building has less regulation, that planning has less obstacles to jump through is really important . that's how

is really important. that's how you give young people the chance to have a home. that's how you give businesses the chance to grow. but let me just tell you one thing, tom. i have seen so many labour plans over so many years and the devil is always in the detail. there is always an element of state control that comes in. keir has been clear about it. socialists are clear about it. socialists are clear about it. socialists are clear about it . socialism about it. socialists are clear about it. socialism means taking control from you and giving it to them. >> so no chance you'll back the labour party's proposals on planning, even if they're deregulatory, if they are making real conservative changes, i'll back them . now, an interesting back them. now, an interesting question for someone with a military background. this weekend we've learned that boris johnson was ready to invade the netherlands in order to retrieve vaccines that are not vaccines. yes, vaccines that the uk had procured but the eu was withholding from us. good idea or bad idea? >> i think i think two of boris's best ideas were supporting ukraine and getting business involved with the vaccine programme, so that we got the fastest rollout. i think this reads to me like boris, bofisis this reads to me like boris, boris is having fun with the

readers of the daily mail. >> i've spoken to a special adviser who worked for boris at that time, who told me it was exactly what happened that that was true . he got military was true. he got military leaders to draw up plans to send in the sas or other special forces into the netherlands to retrieve vaccines. >> the netherlands is a very important nato ally. we train their navy, we train their royal marines. they are a really important ally. you know, it's 400 years since we've been to war with the dutch. and i think the war of chatham docks has really that's a that's a little bit in the past. >> okay, okay. i was pushing you hard there. but we're not going to get war with any european union country from your lips any moment. no. >> okay. announcing the invasion of france. >> no. okay. i'm not even catholic. no. okay. we're going to move on. of course, the conservative party voters split across many different parties at the election . some went off to the election. some went off to the election. some went off to the lib dems, some went off to reform. many sat on their hands and some voted labour. how do you persuade all of the

dissuaded, dissatisfied tories to come back? how do you find a message that reaches that broader spectrum? >> well, tom, the truth is i've spoken at constituency events and at public events over the last ten years. i don't know how many thousand i've done. and over the last six months i've certainly done many hundreds, both during the election when i was knocking on doors around the united kingdom . and then united kingdom. and then recently, of course, for this, for this phase of the leadership election. and one of the things that really strikes me is the thing that people really want to see is they want to see leadership, they want trust back in politics, and they want to see us delivering. frankly, they were angry, and i get it. they were angry, and i get it. they were really, really angry. what they saw in the conservative party over the last few years was self—service. they saw us being introspective, not supporting the british people , supporting the british people, not looking at what was in the best interest of our country. we need to turn that around now. the truth is, the conservative party does deliver and we can deliver. and when we champion conservative values, that's when people come to us, because the natural values of the british people are conservative. they're based on hard work, on family, on opportunity and on real drive

to make this country better. now you stood to be leader of the conservative party two years ago. >> why do you think you didn't win ? why didn't the party vote win? why didn't the party vote for you? >> well, i think there are many, many reasons why the party was in a different position then we were actually in government and were actually in government and we saw shenanigans and game playing, resulting in two elections in a very short space of time. i'm here to end that game playing. we've had enough of the political games that have made this party, frankly, more of a westminster club than a national movement. we need to get back to being a national movement that champions the values of the british. >> but you didn't win. then why can you win now? >> because this is a different election. what we're now talking aboutis election. what we're now talking about is being reforming the conservative party, making sure we clean up cchq we changed the way that this party works so that we can change the way that this country works. that's what we've got to do. that's what i'm going to do. so that in four years time, the british people will have the chance to vote for either a socialist who's already started destroying britain or a conservative who's ready to rebuild it. i'm standing to be

prime minister in four years time. >> you've mentioned the freedom loving ethos of this party, of the british people , should the british people, should people who protest , politicians people who protest, politicians who wave placards that call politicians of colour coconuts, should those people be arrested for the placards they hold? >> look, i've always been clear that when politics is free, you can say what you like when you're seeing the incitement to racial hatred that you've sometimes seen, then that is simply wrong. now the judge has ruled on this, and i'm not going to second guess the judiciary. but frankly, i think racism in pubuc but frankly, i think racism in public life is utterly vile. it degrades everybody. mostly it degrades everybody. mostly it degrades the person who's doing it. but it's frankly absolutely despicable that we've seen people using such racial epithets across this country. and it's absolutely wrong. >> some might say that a conservative peer, baroness warsi, no longer a conservative peen warsi, no longer a conservative peer, was removed from the party for free speech. what do you make of that charge?

>> no, she was removed from the party for repeating racist slurs . party for repeating racist slurs. >> finally, and this is a question that of course, all of the candidates were asked famously in 2019. it's a question that keir starmer has studiously avoided answering. i hope you can answer it now. have you done any illegal drugs in your past? >> i'm afraid not. no. i did handle an awful lot of opium when i was a soldier in afghanistan, but i'm afraid that was to burn it, not to not to use it. >> well, tom tugendhat, thank you so much forjoining us here on the camilla tominey show.

well welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now. so much more to come in the next hour, i'll be joined by the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, someone who many people call the real deputy prime minister, pat mcfadden , and tory leadership mcfadden, and tory leadership hopeful kemi badenoch , alongside hopeful kemi badenoch, alongside robert jenrick. but first,

here's the news with lewis mckenzie . mckenzie. >> thank you very much, tom. good morning. it's 10:00 >> thank you very much, tom. good morning. it's10:00 i'm lewis mckenzie here in the gb newsroom. the conservative party conference begins in birmingham today as the party chair, michael winstanley, is expected to say he is profoundly sorry for the loss at the general election. leadership hopefuls james cleverly , robert jenrick, james cleverly, robert jenrick, tom tugendhat and kemi badenoch will also be making their bids to be the next leader. former british prime minister rishi sunak says. oh and his wife akshata murty, arrived last night. but are expected to leave later on today. it will be his last conference as leader . last conference as leader. canterbury mp rosie duffield has resigned. the labour whip , resigned. the labour whip, accusing the prime minister of hypocrisy and pursuing cruel and unnecessary policies . in

unnecessary policies. in a resignation letter, mr duffield attacked sir keir starmer's decision to keep the two child benefit cap and means test winter fuel payments, and condemned his handling of the outcry over gifts given to him and other senior labour figures . and other senior labour figures. david lammy has spoken to the lebanese prime minister following a series of israeli airstrikes in beirut. the foreign secretary says they agreed that an immediate ceasefire is required to bring an end to the bloodshed. it comes after the terrorist group hezbollah confirmed their leader, hassan nasrallah, was killed in an airstrike in southern lebanon. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu says israel settled the score with nasrallah's death, and it is a historic turning point. while president joe biden says his death is a measure of the justice for his many crimes. the lebanese health ministry is reporting that at least 33

people have now been killed in 195 wounded in the attacks in central beirut . almost 10 central beirut. almost 10 million households have been warned they risk overpaying for their energy if they don't send metre readings to their supplier before the 10% price rise takes place on the 1st of october, the average household energy bill is set to increase by £149 a year from this tuesday, as ofgem increases the price cap . the increases the price cap. the cleanup has begun after hurricane helene swept through the southeastern part of the united states, leaving at least 64 people dead and millions without power. helene was one of the most powerful storms ever to have hit the region . wild have hit the region. wild weather has also devastated nepal weather has also devastated nepal, with more than 100 killed and 64 missing, as flooding and landslides hit the capital, rain began pouring down on friday night and continued into saturday, with low lying

neighbourhoods in kathmandu inundated with surging floodwaters. it's the highest recorded rainfall there since 1970. phillip schofield says the utter betrayal by his television colleagues has made him never want to be a daytime presenter ever again. the 62 year old, the 62 year old former this morning host is set to appear on channel five's castaway, marking his first tv appearance since leaving itv in may of 2023. following an admission of an unwise but not illegal affair with a younger male colleague . with a younger male colleague. and spacex has launched its mission to bring back two astronauts who have been stranded on the international space station since june 3rd, two one ignition and full power and lift—off of the dragon capsule, which has two empty

seats for butch wilmore and suni williams, lifted off from cape canaveral last night. the pair were only meant to be in space for around eight days, but after a fault was found on their return vehicle, the new boeing starliner , it returned to earth starliner, it returned to earth empty at just as a precaution, leaving them stranded for almost four months. the new team is hoping to bring them back in february of next year. hoping to bring them back in february of next year . well, february of next year. well, those are your latest gb news headlines. i'm lewis mckenzie. more from me in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code , alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com. >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show with me tom harwood lots still to come. in a minute,

i'm going to be joined by the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, pat mcfadden. i'll also be joined by kemi badenoch, the tory leadership candidate, and the only woman left in the fight. also robert jenrick will be here, as well as zia yousef, the chairman of reform uk now much to come, we're going to hear now from the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, labour mp for wolverhampton south east, pat mcfadden. pat, thanks so much for joining pat mcfadden. pat, thanks so much forjoining us on the much for joining us on the programme. first of all, you are three months into the job and you've lost one of your members of parliament, rosie duffield, resigned last night. what went wrong ? wrong? >> well, i think when you read rosie's resignation letter, you can see that these are the frustrations and disagreements of somebody who's held them for quite a long time. there's no secret about that. i think rosie's been quite disaffected

with the labour leader , with the with the labour leader, with the labour party for quite a while. so i'm disappointed to see her go because i like rosie and i think she's got a lot to offer. politics but ultimately i'm not surprised . surprised. >> pat, you say that these are questions that she's had for a long time, but the freebies scandal has only been running for the last few weeks. i've got her letter here. in it, she says the sleaze, nepotism and apparent avarice are off the scale. she says , inexplicably scale. she says, inexplicably accepting expensive personal gifts of designer suits and glasses costing more than most of those people can grasp, is an entirely undeserving of keir starmer holding the post of prime minister. this is a recent scandal . scandal. >> well, she does say that you're right, but this is partly it's a campaign donation. it's part of presentation is part of a campaign, and that's what this

was. and, you know , i welcome was. and, you know, i welcome the support of lord alli , who the support of lord alli, who gave this campaign donation and of the other successful people who support labour. he supported labour for a long, long time. he's given this campaign donation presentation is part of the campaign . that was for then. the campaign. that was for then. and now that we're in government, we're in a new phase. >> presentation is certainly part of all campaigns presentation, i.e. how things look really, really matters. and isn't. rosie duffield's point here that this all looks terrible, that you have members of parliament, incredibly wealthy members of parliament, the leader of the opposition accepting more than £100,000 in gifts over the last parliament. that's the presentation that she's concerned about . she's concerned about. >> yes. and she's acknowledged this morning that people do raise funds for campaigns. she's

raised funds for her own campaign. every politician does this. that's what some of this was. some of the rest of what you're talking about. was. some of the rest of what you're talking about . there was. some of the rest of what you're talking about. there is a lot of it's hospitality. following his football team. there are security reasons for that. there are security reasons for that . he there are security reasons for that. he can't just sit in the stand, and that's what accounts for most of what you've read out there. >> well, of course, rishi sunak did sit in the stand. he didn't take the director's box. but, do you think that all of these issues have been the reason why in the latest opinion poll, keir starmer's rating is now below that of rishi sunak. and let's not forget, rishi sunak is the man who led the conservative party to their biggest defeat in the party's history. how on earth is our prime minister now polling worse than that ? polling worse than that? >> well, i'd be more interested in the polls three months before an election than three months after them. we've been elected

with a big majority. we've got a lot of work to do . we've got lot of work to do. we've got a big and difficult legacy from the conservative party to work through , and when we've done through, and when we've done that, we get on with stabilising the economy, getting growth, going , generating the wealth going, generating the wealth that we need for our public services, turning around the nhs and making sure that living standards rise all around the country . that's the agenda that country. that's the agenda that i and my cabinet colleagues are working to every day . yes, we've working to every day. yes, we've had a few difficult headlines which you used to work. and, you know, i'm not saying i don't wish these stories had taken place, but we'll get through it. and we've got a big agenda for the future. but you used to work for tony blair, who was known as the master of spin. >> of course, there was only one point during his first term in office where he even dipped behind the conservatives, and that was the fuel crisis. i mean, really, the first few months, even the third month, fourth month, the first year,

the first four years that tony blair was in position, he never dipped below william hague in terms of favorability. the party never fell behind the conservatives, apart from one moment during a national crisis . moment during a national crisis. i mean, there's no comparison. clearly there is something going very wrong with the operation of number 10. >> well, it's interesting you raise the tony blair era and you're right. i used to work for prime minister blair. and as your viewers can probably tell, i've been around the block a little bit when it comes to politics. i think there's a bit of rose tinted spectacles in looking at the past, sometimes i remember a lot of stories about divisions. then i remember a big story about bernie ecclestone donation. you might remember , donation. you might remember, which felt like quite a crisis at the time. and the important thing is that we felt like a crisis , but it didn't dip his crisis, but it didn't dip his poll numbers in the way that keir starmer's poll numbers have

dipped . dipped. >> and perhaps, pat, what i'm getting at here is that despite things being thrown at tony blair, his poll numbers didn't dip because he had a competent operation. he had strong spinners. he had, for wants. he had he had a smooth operation behind number 10. whether you agreed with him or not. people always knew he seemed competent. that seems very different now when you've got briefings between figures behind the scenes . in between figures behind the scenes. in number 10, sue between figures behind the scenes . in number 10, sue gray, scenes. in number 10, sue gray, the chief of staff to the prime minister, her salary was leaked by someone within number 10. so now we know that she earns more than the prime minister. the story is less that the prime minister's chief of staff earns more than him. it's that someone else in that building leaked that to the media. you're fighting like rats in a sack . fighting like rats in a sack. >> well, it's interesting. you should praise the spinners of

the past. as i say, i remember this well because i was there and they were always being attacked. at the time. the spin was too much. people didn't like spin. they didn't like having strong briefers you appear to be calling for a return of the strong spinners , and i don't strong spinners, and i don't want to blame, any of the government's recent difficulties on staff. i don't think politicians should do that. i don't think it's fair. and we'll work our way through these things. we've got a big agenda to work on. i outlined some of that to you. a few minutes ago. we've got a big, important budget coming up in a few weeks time. we've got an investment conference coming up . we've got conference coming up. we've got legislation on rights for renters, on transport, on gb energy, hereditary peers, a big legislative programme. that's what we're working on and that's what we're working on and that's what we're working on and that's what we're going to get on with. >> and yet it's all being distracted, of course, because it looks like the people at the top of government are more concerned about designer suits, expensive glasses and really

having their snouts in the trough rather than getting on and governing. i hate to bring it up, because this, of course, has been in the news in previous years, but you yourself rented out a house in your own constituency, the house that you used to live in in order to then rent a house next door to that and charge the taxpayer for that rent. of course, it was within the rules at the time, but many people said that that was against the spirit of the rules. are you not equally guilty here? >> no. that was in order to comply with the rules because they changed the rules and said you could no longer have a mortgage subsidised by the taxpayer. you had to rent and so i complied with the rules. it's very important to comply with the rules. you could have paid the rules. you could have paid the mortgage yourself. the property was sold, but the rules didn't say that. >> you couldn't pay the mortgage yourself. >> i've always complied with the rules and taken those seriously,

but you could have paid the mortgage yourself and instead you didn't. >> you rented out the house and then charged the taxpayer to rent a second property. >> well, it's in the parliamentary system that mps will live in two places. i do pay a will live in two places. i do pay a mortgage by myself on my own home. of course i do. like anyone else. but it's in the rules that mps live in two different places. and in that second place there is a home thatis second place there is a home that is paid for out of the out of the rules. and i have always complied with the rules in the way that that is done. and i'll make sure i do that in the future to. >> yes, as with all of these stories, no one is suggesting rules have been broken . people rules have been broken. people are suggesting it looks like there are issues with with finance and with greed. that's the public perception, frankly. pat. just one final question. would you accept rosie duffield back into the labour party ?

back into the labour party? >> well, i think it's probably a bit too soon to be raising that prospect, given the anger with which she has left. i regret rosie going because i like her and i think she's an important voice in politics. >> not a yes and not a no has been known for a very long time . been known for a very long time. >> and so while i'm disappointed, i'm ultimately not surprised that the decision that she's taken . she's taken. >> okay. pat mcfadden, thank you so much forjoining us here on gb news. really appreciate your time this morning. now in just a minute, i'll be speaking to tory leadership candidate kemi badenoch. i'll be asking her whether she thinks there's been a stop kemi campaign in this contest. back in two minutes.

okay welcome back to the camilla

tominey show with me tom harwood. we're live on gb news now. i'm delighted to be joined here in birmingham at the conservative party conference by kemi badenoch, tory leadership candidate and the member of parliament for north west essex. kemi, thank you so much for joining us here this morning, first of all, i'm going to dive straight into it. you pride yourself on how direct you are. you pride yourself on speaking hard truths , but do you worry hard truths, but do you worry that you won't make the final two because you've rubbed too many of your parliamentary colleagues up the wrong way? with that same directness? >> no, no. if you look at who's supporting me, you'll find that the people who've worked with me, the most are my supporters. if i was rubbing people up the wrong way, it wouldn't be them. all the ministers who worked in my department are supporting my leadership. i think that people want some directness now. people want some directness now. people want to hear politicians speak their minds rather than hide

behind waffly waffly language. and the thing about me rubbing up colleagues the wrong way is not true. it's something put about by people who are competing against me. i get on with my colleagues now. >> of course, there is a yellow card system in this race where if candidates or camps directly brief against other candidates, they are told to stop. do you think this has been a clean race? >> i think it has been very interesting where some candidates have set out their stall and other candidates are talking about, everybody else. i mean, it was really interesting on the laura kuenssberg show today. robert jenrick was on just before me, and he said two things about me that weren't true . one, that i've said that true. one, that i've said that numbers don't matter, numbers do matter when it comes to immigration. i said so in an op ed and that i'm opposed to a cap. i'm not opposed to a cap. i just think that you can have a cap and the wrong people still come in. i want us to talk about who is coming into our country. >> do you think that robert jenrick campaign should have a yellow card put against him for those comments this morning ? those comments this morning? >> do you know what i think?

that whenever people do things that are, you know, about other candidates, people can see. so i'm just focused on my own campaign. it's for the party authorities to decide. i'm very happy to correct the record, but it shows that he's not actually reading or listening to what i'm saying. >> now, would you serve in robert jenrick cabinet or any other of your potential? anyone who might win this contest, would you serve in any of their cabinets in any position? >> yes, and that is because i certainly serve in the cabinets of any of the contenders standing because we need to make sure that we all pull our weight when it comes to this, this parliament, there are only 121 conservative mps. we are so few. we're going to need everybody to work harder if we're ever going to get back to government. >> now, this is something i'm asking everyone, what is something that you can name that the labour government has done well? so far in their first three months in office, something labour has done .

something labour has done. >> well, well, you asked, you know , you asked this. i actually know, you asked this. i actually was thinking about this the other day because i like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and there is nothing that they have done well. winter fuel payment to take care on policing, treating one group differently from another, stripping away ofsted inspections. parents don't know what's going on with schools taxing vat. you know, taxing education. i know a hairdresser who's taking her daughter out of private education because it's just too much. this labour government are terrible because they have no principles. they're just doing things without thinking. we were not ready for the election. they were not ready for government. >> now you have prided yourself on your principles and you've stood for the leadership beforehand. one of the things that you said in the past was that you said in the past was that it that you said in the past was thatitis that you said in the past was that it is ridiculous that the state takes money from working taxpayers and gives it in benefits to millionaires who are retired . yes. is that not, then retired. yes. is that not, then a good thing that the labour party is doing in means testing winter fuel allowance? >> but it's not really means

testing. they're just taking it away from anyone who doesn't have pension credit millionaires should not be getting the winter fuel payments, but there are many more people who are in poverty or who are just about managing who need it. but the other reason why i'm opposed to it happening the way they've doneit it happening the way they've done it is because government has made energy more expensive. the us energy is half the cost of ours. we add levies, we make it expensive. so we should protect those people who can't work, who need the winter fuel payment. let's means test it better . better. >> now, one of the reasons why american energy is half the cost or even less than that in the united kingdom, is they extract their shale gas. do you think we should start fracking in the united kingdom, you ask? >> this is a very controversial question, tom, because you will remember that the fracking vote was the vote that brought down liz truss's government, despite the vote passing. yes, indeed. but it was very controversial. i think that if we are going to do something like fracking shale gas, we're going to need the to pubuc gas, we're going to need the to public buy into it. and they're not there. they're not there yet .

not there. they're not there yet. i am personally not opposed to it, but i wouldn't be starting out, putting out policies there because i know that the communities don't want it. and we have to work with a lot of communities in order to do difficult things. >> now, of course, you shadow angela rayner. you've had some pretty punchy performances across the dispatch boxes to and from one another, i want to ask you specifically about the policy that the labour party proposed last weekend. it looks like they're pushing ahead with it . it's pretty radical planning it. it's pretty radical planning passports , where you will passports, where you will automatically be able to build on brownfield land. i mean, does that not sound like something that not sound like something that you've been advocating? the idea of building more in our cities and potentially less on green fields? >> it sounds like a good idea, but if you actually look at the detail, that's not actually what they're proposing . what they're they're proposing. what they're proposing is, well, should we ask people maybe , perhaps in ask people maybe, perhaps in certain circumstances we might do this, but we're not going to override local consent. we're not going to do, you know, there's so many caveats to it. it is not serious when you realise that they have given

urban areas lower housing targets. they're lowering the housing targets for places like london. so they're not going to achieve that. they are not consistent. that policy that they put out is not coherent. if you read it, you can see it's all over the place. and this is what i was explaining to angela, who i actually quite like as a, as a persona. she, she is one of those people who just hates tories. i'm not somebody who hates people because of their political beliefs. >> i quite like her. she's persona. does she hate all tories? >> well, she called us scum. so i think that's pretty that's pretty visceral. and she's never really apologised for it, at least not to my knowledge. but she doesn't understand the policy. when she's standing there. she's reading a script that somebody else has written for her. when i asked questions, she answered different questions. >> there's something you said at the beginning of that answer, criticising the labour party's policy because it doesn't override local consent enough . override local consent enough. would your ideal policy override local consent ? local consent? >> well, that's the point i'm making, is that if you're going to have automatic brownfield development, then that means you're overriding local consent, right? if they've put that in

there and said, we're not going to do that, then it's not really automatic. that's why i say the policy is not coherent. there's lots of stuff in there that just doesn't add up. >> okay, we're going to move on to international affairs. now. would you vote for trump or kamala harris? >> i'm not an american citizen and i never answer this question. iused and i never answer this question. i used to when it was a pub quiz. but as somebody who's been trade secretary and met people from all parties in other countries, they don't like it when we comment on their internal politics. i'm not a junior politician anymore . i'm junior politician anymore. i'm not just, you know, having a fun time on a sunday show. i'm running to be leader of my party, and that means that i need to be able to work with whoever is leading the, you know, countries that are our allies. and that may be donald trump, that may be kamala harris. i respect them both, and i would work well with them. >> the prime minister has been at the united nations in new york this week. he's met with donald trump. he dined with donald trump. he dined with donald trump. he dined with donald trump in a quite intimate setting. i almost said romantic there, but i think i should probably row back from that, david lammy has been speaking at the un as well. you're a very

senior politician of african heritage. i want to ask you what you made of david lammy's speech at the un, where he spoke about his own personal experiences as a black man. >> i didn't think that the comments were serious. i could tell that he was very passionate, but i would draw the wrong analogy . sometimes we need wrong analogy. sometimes we need to be able to say things are wrong on principle, not just on our personal experience. there's often a place for personal experience , but the war that experience, but the war that russia is waging in ukraine violates so many moral principles. obviously, he's well within his rights to use that analogy. it's not one that i would personally use, but david lammy is somebody who has repeatedly, you know, said, made remarks that he's had to row back on. so i don't think that he's as good a foreign secretary as david cameron or even james cleverly was. we need conservatives doing these jobs. and i just think overall labour are hypocrites. you talked about keir starmer meeting donald trump intimately, but you look at the things they've been saying over several years. they

acted as if donald trump was satan. now all of a sudden he's their best friend. that is why i'm careful when i answer these questions, because i know in the future i will have to work with these people saying silly things on twitter to get likes is not serious politics. the labour party are not a serious party. now. >> you've been a staunch supporter of freedom of speech for many years there has been an issue. >> this week that has involved freedom of speech, a conservative peer, a formerly conservative peer, a formerly conservative peer, a formerly conservative peer, now independent peer, has resigned from the party pending an investigation because, she said it was wrong. people waving placards that had the word coconut on them were arrested . coconut on them were arrested. she said that you should be able to call a politician in effect, a coconut. what do you make of that? is that free speech or is that? is that free speech or is that not the term is a racial slur . slur. >> and i think that no politician should be justifying the use of racial slurs. there is a different argument about

whether we should imprison people for this , but the law at people for this, but the law at the moment means that if you call me the n word, you will probably, you know , go to probably, you know, go to prison. we should not make different rules for people based on what group they're in. and that was effectively what that court case was doing. there are other court cases that have ruled differently. i think this is a space that we need to explore more, but no conservative politician should be justifying the use of racial slurs. that is why the whip was removed from her. she has and she is jumping before she's been pushed. there were numerous complaints about that conservative peer, and i think the right decision was made by the right decision was made by the party. >> clear for you, a party matter of ideology rather than a legal matter of imprisoning people for what they say . what they say. >> well, i think it's both we have created all sorts of legislation that is now a mess. we have non—hate crime incidents that police report. this is one of the things, i'm afraid, that we did badly in government. we should not, i think, under the

theresa may era, we keep legislating for the left. this is why people are upset with us. we talk right, we govern left. we talk right, we govern left. we need to be very clear about free speech and its boundaries, not blur the law to the point where the police don't know who's doing something wrong and whether they're going to get in trouble if they arrest this person, but not that person. equality under the law is a key principle. >> you've mentioned that as a very clear thing that you think the last government got wrong. yes. over that 14 years, what do you think the most? the thing they got most right was , oh, we they got most right was, oh, we got a lot right. >> we don't talk about it enough early on, certainly under david cameron. what we did in education was fantastic. labour's already rowing back on that. the education standards that. the education standards that we brought in, you can compare with snp run scotland and labour run wales. england has shot up international rankings, wales has gone backwards . scotland so far backwards. scotland so far backwards. scotland so far backwards they don't even want to publish the figures anymore . to publish the figures anymore. or perhaps it's the other way round, but that is a clear example of where conservatives in government deliver opportunity for people. >> now in the telegraph today, i

think you've written, if necessary, we will leave international frameworks like the echr. this is an article where you're talking about controlling illegal migration. is that not a bit weaselly language? if necessary, we will leave international frameworks like the echr. that's rishi sunak's policy. >> i'm not sure that it is his policy, but what i am saying. >> rishi sunak as prime minister, said he wouldn't commit to leaving the echr, but said that nothing was off the table. he would leave it if necessary. is that not your policy? >> yes, that is that is my policy. but the point i'm making is that we're not in government. so whether we want to leave the echr today, it's not going to matter. the problem we have, and this is what is different between me and rob . the problem between me and rob. the problem we have is that the public don't trust us. it doesn't matter if we throw out a thousand great promises, people don't believe we will do them because we didn't do them before. how do we earn that trust back? that's why i wrote that numbers matter, but culture matters even more and leadership is the critical thing. if the prime minister is

not personally driving it, it won't happen. but the other thing that i say is that even if we left the echr today, we still wouldn't be deporting people. there are countries in the echr that are deporting more than us. thatis that are deporting more than us. that is a culture problem. we have people in the home office who don't want to do this work . who don't want to do this work. it doesn't matter what frameworks you leave if you can't get the people to do the job, you're wasting your time. i am an engineer, so i think about how to make the system work. rob is a lawyer. he's going to talk about laws, laws and legalese. my about laws, laws and legalese. my way will work. his is another promise. >> okay, i've got so many more questions i'd like to ask you, but i've only got time for one. in a word, if you would. is it good for your campaign now that your supporter, michael gove is the incoming editor of the spectator ? spectator? >> michael gove is not running my campaign. i'm running my campaign. i don't know what he's going to be like as a spectator. i will miss fraser nelson, who was a good colleague when i worked there. i used to work for andrew neil at the spectator about ten years ago, so i care very much about that magazine. it is an important voice for the centre right. we need more

conservative voices and a good thing or bad thing, i don't know, we will have to wait and see. we shouldn't judge people before they start a job. let's see what he does. >> okay? kemi badenoch, thank you so much forjoining us here on the camilla tominey programme. really appreciate your time. coming up next, i'm going to be joined by the chairman of the reform party, zia yousef. stay with .

us. welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news with me tominey show on gb news with me tom harwood putting the tom in tominey now. i'm delighted to be joined by the chairman of reform uk, zia yusuf ziya. it was only a week ago that we were in birmingham, a different part of birmingham. for your party's conference this week, the conservatives are convening. the conservatives here think that

they can defeat the labour party in the next 4 or 5 years and become the government, but speaking to people at your conference, speaking to or heanng conference, speaking to or hearing people on stage at your conference, you believe you can win the next election. with five mps now getting up to 326, is that a realistic possibility? >> tom? there's a big elephant in the room at that conference, which is that the tories are done. >> the british people now see the tory party for what they are, which is a party that will say absolutely anything to get themselves elected and then do themselves elected and then do the complete opposite when they come into power. if you just look at their record, i mean, people at home listening to these tory leadership hopefuls must be shaking their heads in disbelief at how shameless it is they promised in manifesto after manifesto to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands left office having exploded the size of the population with that number at three quarters of a million, they promised to reduce

taxes. supposedly, they're the party of low taxes. they left office having raised the tax burden on hard working british people to the highest level since the second world war. they presided over a knife crime epidemic that leaves many people watching this programme too afraid to go to their local shop, they allowed wokery to run rampant throughout all the great british institutions, including and especially our civil service. they have a huge amount to answer for. i'm amazed , to answer for. i'm amazed, frankly, that they're able to say these things with a straight face. the last hopeful we just heard on your programme a moment ago was most of what she was saying was criticising her own government's record , things like government's record, things like non—crime hate incidents, which is a wonderful but awful example of the catastrophes that the tories inflicted on this country. the british people see them for what they are. they betrayed every principle that their voters elected them to uphold, and they're going to be consigned to the history books as a result .

as a result. >> do you think that the government that is currently in place, the labour government that got in on a historically low share of the votes, with a historically high number of members of parliament, partly because of the success of reform uk and parties like it. do you think they'll be better or worse? >> well, they're demonstrably worse . but all labour are. are worse. but all labour are. are the tories on fast forward , both the tories on fast forward, both parties essentially want to leave our border open , want to leave our border open, want to have no controls or sensibility or intelligence about a migration policy, preside over a knife crime epidemic because they're too cowardly to stop it quickly using stop and search, which we know works. both parties are allowing our health service to continue to fall into disrepair, to the point of being on the brink of collapse. so look, clearly keir starmer is worse, but i would go back to the point, given this interview is about the tory conference, and that's where you currently are. the people who are responsible for inflicting keir starmer and his cronies on this

country are the tory party. they abandoned their voters, as you said, forget the size of the majority that is essentially an esoteric result of the first past the post system. we know keir starmer won fewer votes, but that is the jeremy corbyn we live under zia yusuf. >> we know that this is the system that we live under. you're not going to change the electoral system from opposition. is it really realistic to say that you're going to come anywhere close to being in government? look at the liberal democrats. they took decades to get even to be the junior party within a coalition. you've said at your conference last week you want to follow the liberal democrats strategy of winning seats. does that mean in 40 years you might be the deputy prime minister? >> where we are now, tom, is we live in a very different world to the one of years and decades past. we see things happening in the political arena across the world, including and especially in europe, where we're seeing voters have never been more likely to switch votes relative to the previous election. and

let's look at the actual numbers again, the five seats we won were a result of the first past the post system. we won 14% of the post system. we won 14% of the vote share. and what i will say to people who support reform or are minded to support reform, we've demonstrated we can win seats and also the seat return going from 14 to the 32. 33% that we need will be huge as a result of the system that we and it will actually work in our favour in the next leg of the journey. and look at what happenedin journey. and look at what happened in europe. marine le pen very different politician to nigel farage. i want to be clear about that. she went from 17 to 34% in france in two years. that is unprecedented. look at the betting markets. the betting markets have reform at 7 to 1 to win the most seats in the next general election. that's narrowed from 8 to 1 prior to our conference last week. and by the way, do you know what they have? >> the liberal democrats not always a predictor. >> they had the lib dems on 100 to 1 to predict. >> i'm going to i'm going to ask you about professionalisation. now this is your task as new party chairman to change the party, change its run, how it's run. can i ask is that why that

nigel farage is long term spin doctor gawain towler was sacked this week . this week. >> well, look, we're in the process of professionalising the party. that's an internal personnel matter . obviously personnel matter. obviously wouldn't be appropriate to talk about it publicly. what i will say is gwen has been an incredible servant to the party, has done a huge amount to get the party to where it is. and if you look at his commentary on twitter, you will see that he continues to support our cause . continues to support our cause. >> it's interesting because very few people have a bad way to say words to say about gwen. they said he was, or basically everyone has said that he was such an effective operator. i'm a bit confused about the decision. >> i am not a bad thing to say about gwen either, but as i said, it's an internal personnel matter. i'm sure you appreciate it's not appropriate to talk about those things publicly . about those things publicly. >> okay. zia yusuf, chairman of reform uk. thank you so much for joining us here on the camilla tominey show. well up next, we're going to hear from our tory leadership r

robert jenrick back with that

welcome back to the camilla tominey show with me tom harwood. earlier i sat down with robert jenrick tory leadership candidate . let's take a look. candidate. let's take a look. robert jenrick can you name something you think the new labour government has done well since coming into office? >> well, look, i'm i'm pleased that they are turning their attention to how we get more homes built in this country. we need to build homes. we need more industry and infrastructure. unfortunately, they're going about it in the wrong way. they're doing precisely the opposite of what i want to do. they're slashing the housing targets in the big cities, and they're hiking them in the countryside and in places where there isn't demand for housing. so the idea is right, but the policies are wrong. if i was leader of our party and ultimately prime minister, i want to get young people onto the housing ladder with serious

but radical changes to our planning system. >> can you imagine backing any policy that sir keir starmer puts forward in the house of commons? >> yeah, i've already said that the nhs needs reform and if wes streeting and keir starmer come forward with genuine reforms in the national interest that improve productivity , so that we improve productivity, so that we actually talk about outputs, not just inputs, i would support them. now i'm sceptical because them. now i'm sceptical because the revealed preference of this labour government is to cave in to the vested interest to the trade unions, but i've made that offer to them. i think the pubuc offer to them. i think the public want to see their opposition behave in a mature way, where there are good things, support them where they're making mistakes, like taking the winter fuel allowance away from 10 million pensioners, vigorously oppose them. >> now, in the 2019 leadership contest, all the questions were asked about their personal history with regard to drug taking. it became a bit of a farce really. we heard lots of different stories from lots of different stories from lots of different candidates. i'm going to ask the same question to you

now. have you ever taken illegal drugs? keir starmer said he had fun at university. what do you think that meant ? think that meant? >> i don't know, we have to ask keir starmer. he doesn't. doesn't look like the kind of guy that had a lot of fun at university. >> okay, we're going to turn to the conservative government of the conservative government of the last 14 years. now, what was the last 14 years. now, what was the most conservative reform that you think was actually achieved under those 14 years? >> probably the welfare reforms that happened in the early days under iain duncan smith and esther mcvey. i thought that was morally right. making work pay, getting people off welfare back into the dignity of work and obviously right for the economy. one of the things i've been talking about in this leadership election is we've got to do exactly the same now , because exactly the same now, because there are millions of people in our country who are on welfare. we need them to get back into the workplace . and that is also the workplace. and that is also one of the ways in which we end mass migration, because we don't want companies to be reaching for the easy lever of foreign laboun for the easy lever of foreign labour, bringing people into our

country for whom we don't have the homes the public services to look after them, and which makes it much more difficult to build the united cohesive country that i want to see. so a proper conservative agenda on welfare reform is essential. >> so welfare was the most right wing thing you think the government did? what do you think the most left wing thing that the previous government did was? >> i think probably the mistake of not being reformers. you look at something like the nhs . we at something like the nhs. we became obsessed by boasting about the amount of money we were putting into it, not what the actual experience was for the actual experience was for the patients we treated. the nhs like a religion to be worshipped, not a public service to be reformed. we've got to change that. i want a small state that works, not a big state that works, not a big state that works, not a big state that fails. >> there were, of course, five conservative prime ministers over the last 14 years. some lasted longer than others. who do you think was the best? >> well, i think that's very hard to say. i served as a

minister under each of those five conservative prime ministers, all very different people. i think if i look back on that period , my greatest on that period, my greatest regret is that none of them had a very clear sense of where they want to take this country . that want to take this country. that is what i want to do. while i've been using this leadership election to do is have a clear diagnosis, i'm going to press you for an answer and be clear of the most effective, the best, your favourite of the last five conservative prime ministers. i think i'm not going to answer that, tom, because i think they were different people. i think bofis were different people. i think boris got brexit done a great achievement, which will be a lasting reform to our country. but look, all of them had their strengths and their weaknesses. what i want to do is learn the lessons from that period and put forward the serious answers to the big challenges that are now facing. >> okay, you've named boris. let's dive into something that has popped up into the news. this weekend. would you have asked your advisers in number 10? were you prime minister to round up the army, potentially invade the netherlands and grab vaccines that the uk had procured that the eu was holding

back? >> well, i do remember the frustration at that time. i remember sitting in meetings and in cabinet meetings where we were discussing the issue that were discussing the issue that we had vaccines that we had ordered in other countries, which were not for a period of time able to get back to serve our own people. so there's a serious point to belying that. >> but would you have called in the army? >> well, i don't think that's what boris was suggesting. i think he was showing was the immense frustration at that time that there were vaccines that we had procured, which were not being made available for our own people, that the job of the prime minister is to put the interests of british people first. >> boris johnson has written in his book that he convened military leaders in order. >> i wasn't privy to that conversation, tom, so i don't know exactly. >> do you think in principle it would have been a good idea? >> i don't know the details of it, tom. what i do know is that we managed to deliver the fastest and best vaccine programme in the world, and that is an achievement for boris, for the conservative party and for the conservative party and for the whole country. >> now the conservative party and all leadership candidates

are heavily critical of the labour party's position on winter fuel allowance. under your leadership, will the conservative party really be backing a policy that takes taxpayer's money away from working people and gives it to many people who happen to be millionaires? >> look, the issue here is twofold. one is the fact that labour never said they were going to do this during the election campaign. so the dishonesty here of hiding this from the public. and the other point is the choice that's being made here. keir starmer is making a political choice to give money to his union paymasters, for example, £10,000 a year to train drivers who are already well paid without properly settling the strikes. £8 billion to ed miliband's fantasy energy company doesn't produce any energy whatsoever, and he's taking it from 10 million pensioners. >> one might say the conservative position here would be to do neither. >> of course, there are some people who are on good incomes, but there are also millions of

pensioners who are not, and there are pensioners who are on as little as £13,000 a year who this autumn and winter, when energy prices are on the rise, are going to be £600 worse off. >> are you really saying that as a conservative party leader, you'll be supporting universal welfare rather than targeted welfare rather than targeted welfare for people if they happen to be older? >> those issues very carefully. the difficulty with means testing is always that it is immensely difficult to do that in practice, and often even more expensive to means test than to provide it universally. so it's harder than you might imagine. but the point here is. keir starmer is making a choice. i think it's a bad choice, a selfish choice, and it reveals a lot about his personality and his politics, giving money to placate his union paymasters, taking it away from poor pensioners . i taking it away from poor pensioners. i think that's shameful. >> well, the times this weekend has alleged that your campaign did not want you to be questioned by camilla tominey dunng questioned by camilla tominey during this conference. how do you respond to that allegation? >> that's not that's not true. you know me , tom. i submit

you know me, tom. i submit myself to interviews by people like yourself every day. but i've done more interviews than any other candidate on this leadership contest so far. i think i've done as many as all of them combined. i've done over 100 events where i've been meeting members in all four nafions meeting members in all four nations of the country. i've been on camilla's show multiple times this year, have the highest respect for her. what i actually want to see is we candidates for this important job, subjected to the highest degree of scrutiny. that's why tomorrow i'm holding my own event where members can ask me questions, where i'm going to set out my vision for the future of our party and our country. >> robert jenrick thanks for joining us. >> thanks very much . >> thanks very much. >> thanks very much. >> well, that was me speaking to robert jenrick a little bit earlier this morning, but what a show it's been. this is the kicking off moment of conservative party conference. rishi sunak, of course, leaves this conference tonight. yes. he's only here for one day. he's the nominal leader of the party, but he's scurrying off without

making a big speech on the main stage. clearly, where all of the attention will be is on those four people who were interviewed. those four conservative mps who were interviewed on this programme. they will be making the waves over the next four days, and it could well be that there is a more clear front runner by wednesday than there really was at the start of this week to some extent, there is all to play some extent, there is all to play for in this conservative leadership race. 121 conservative mps vote until the final two candidates are arrived at, and then it's out to the membership. could this be the moment where things become clear? could this be the moment where someone really does pull ahead? and perhaps the biggest question of all, does it really matter if they do? this is a party that has a tiny number of members of parliament in the house of commons, the fewest in its long and illustrious history. does who leads the party really matter, and can

they rebuild in one term? there's a lot to discuss there of course. camilla will be back with you next sunday with her bofis with you next sunday with her boris johnson interview. but thank you so much for your company today. it's been a delight .

to >> very good morning to you and welcome to sunday with ben leo as i cover for michael portillo today, an action packed show installed this morning, including the middle east on yet another knife edge, 50,000 people fleeing lebanon overnight amid fears of an all out war after the death of hezbollah leader hassan nasrallah. and closer to home, it feels like the labour party is also on the rocks with rosie duffield deaung rocks with rosie duffield dealing keir starmer yet another blow by dramatically quitting as an mp last night, accompanied by

the way, by devastating resignation letter. she cited labour's sleaze, nepotism and greed for her bombshell departure. and while labour fumble, the conservative party conference kicks off in birmingham today. but they're yet to decide on a new leader, theresa may. did you see this? >> she says the party has lost its way by lurching to the right and not paying attention to the apparent threat of the liberal democrats . democrats. >> some would argue it was the lib dems in disguise that left the tories divided in the first place, and tomorrow night brings the return of former itv star phillip schofield as he moans about his treatment after his workplace affair with a younger colleague in a new desert island tv show . what do you reckon? tv show. what do you reckon? does he deserve a second chance on tv ? itv sources this morning on tv? itv sources this morning have slapped him down in an interview with the times. and of course we'll have the latest from the world of theatre with arts and stage editor at the daily express, stefan kyriazis. all that and more coming up. but first, your news headlines with lewis mckenzie .