good evening. i'm sophia wenzler with your headlines at 6:00. rishi sunak has addressed the conservative party conference in birmingham for the last time as party leader. the former prime minister apologised for the general election loss and joked about sir keir starmer's ongoing gifting controversy. it's such a hot ticket. >> i'm surprised that keir starmer hasn't asked somebody to buy him one now. >> i want to start by saying thank you. >> thank you for everything that you do for our party and the support that you have always given us there in me. you all work tirelessly during the election campaign, and i am only sorry that i could not deliver the result that your efforts deserved. and as you know , as deserved. and as you know, as you know, this is my final conference as leader . and new conference as leader. and new leader of our party will be announced in just five weeks time. >> earlier, the conference kicked off with tory leadership

hopeful robert jenrick criticising rival kemi badenoch for saying maternity pay is excessive. speaking to times radio, kemi badenoch said maternity pay has gone too far and the government needed to interfere less in people's lives. mrjenrick interfere less in people's lives. mr jenrick responded to the comments , saying that the the comments, saying that the party should be firmly on the side of parents. all the leadership hopefuls , including leadership hopefuls, including james cleverly, robert jenrick, tom tugendhat and kemi badenoch will all be making their case to the nec to be the next leader of the nec to be the next leader of the party. in other news, now the party. in other news, now the israeli military has launched fresh strikes on lebanon today, saying they have struck dozens of hezbollah targets. the latest wave of attacks comes after israel targets. the latest wave of attacks comes after israel killed 33 people and wounded 195 killed 33 people and wounded 195 others yesterday. that's to others yesterday. that's to according the lebanese health according the lebanese health ministry. yesterday, david lammy ministry. yesterday, david lammy spoke to the lebanese prime spoke to the lebanese prime minister following a series of minister following a series of strikes on beirut. the foreign strikes on beirut. the foreign secretary said there are. they secretary said there are. they

agreed an immediate ceasefire is agreed an immediate ceasefire is required to bring an end to the required to bring an end to the bloodshed. it comes after the bloodshed. it comes after the terrorist group hezbollah terrorist group hezbollah confirmed their leader, hassan confirmed their leader, hassan nasrallah, was killed in an nasrallah, was killed in an airstrike on southern lebanon. airstrike on southern lebanon. israeli prime minister benjamin israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu says israel settled netanyahu says israel settled the score with nasrallah's the score with nasrallah's death. back in the uk, death. back in the uk, canterbury mp rosie duffield has of of canterbury mp rosie duffield has resigned the labour whip, resigned the labour whip, accusing the prime minister of accusing the prime minister of hypocrisy and pursuing cruel and hypocrisy and pursuing cruel and unnecessary policies. in a resignation letter, mr duffield attacked sir keir starmer's unnecessary household energy decision to keep the two child benefit cap and means test winter fuel payments. she also condemned him for handling the outcry over gifts given to him and other senior labour figures. the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster, pat mcfadden, told gb news he is disappointed by the resignation. >> well, i think when you read rosie's resignation letter you can see that these are the frustrations and disagreements

politics. but ultimately i'm not surprised to austrian politics now, where early projections are showing the right leaning freedom party will finish first in the austrian general election. >> the party, led by herbert kickl, has promised austrians to build fortress austria to restore their security, prosperity and peace. the right leaning group is expected to be in pole position to form a coalition for the first time since the second world war. now back in the uk, almost 10 million households have been warned they risk overpaying on their energy if they don't send metre readings to their supplier before the price rise takes effect on the 1st of october.

the average household energy the average household energy bill is set to increase by £149 bill is set to increase by £149 a year from this tuesday, as a year from this tuesday, as ofgem increases its price cap. ofgem increases its price cap. and finally , philip schofield and finally , philip schofield and finally, philip schofield says the utter betrayal by his and finally, philip schofield says the utter betrayal by his television colleagues has made television colleagues has made him never want to be a daytime him never want to be a daytime presenter ever again. the 62 presenter ever again. the 62 year old is set to appear on year old is set to appear on channel five's castaway, marking channel five's castaway, marking his first tv appearance since his first tv appearance since leaving itv in may of 2023. leaving itv in may of 2023. following an admission of an following an admission of an unwise but not illegal affair unwise but not illegal affair with a younger male colleague. with a younger male colleague. those are the latest gb news those are the latest gb news headlines. more in an hour for headlines. more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts .

forward slash alerts. >> well, normally, of course , we >> well, normally, of course, we would review the papers at

>> well, normally, of course, we would rthat'sthe papers at >> well, normally, of course, we would rthat's something at >> well, normally, of course, we would rthat's something we reform, that's something we should look at. but the fact is i really struggle. i will look closely, but at the moment they have just been such a massive disappointment. >> now, a lot of people would have said that the last 14 years were equally a fairly large disappointment. can you name what the most conservative thing the government did was in the last 14 years in power? >> well, i'll tell you, one of the things that i'm most proud of that i did working very closely with ben wallace. we persuaded nato allied countries to follow suit when we donated main battle tanks to ukraine in its self—defence against russia. i'm very, very pleased that we were the first country to donate anti—tank missile systems, those nlaw missile systems, to ukraine. so i know the last few years have been very difficult, but there is much that i'm very, very proud of that we did that was staunchly but but that's your number one answer giving tanks to ukraine. >> of the of the whole 14 years

that your party was in government. oh no. no. >> hang on. you know, you asked me for an example. that was an example. the point is, i mean, the reason i'm so passionate about making sure we spend 3% of gdp on defence is that if you are not well defended, if you are not well defended, if you are not well defended, if you are not able to defend yourself and support your friends and allies around the world, any other plans that you might want to put in place? >> a lot of conservative members might say that defence wasn't a high point of the last 14 years of government. >> well, as i say, my view and you asked my view was that we demonstrated resolve. we demonstrated resolve. we demonstrated commitment. and as leader of the conservative party and as a future prime minister, that's the kind of thing i'd emulate. okay. doing what is right, not just what is easy. okay. standing up for peace through strength rather than just crossing your fingers and hoping. >> now, what was the worst thing the last government did? the most left wing policy, in your view? that the last government pursued? >> well, i think i think our, our collective response to covid took us into a place that naturally, conservatives should not go. we became a much less

liberal. we you know, the government expanded in its scope and its reach. it took us into some very difficult terrain, and i think we've paid the price for that, and we should learn from that. we mustn't do that again. so whatever response , whether it so whatever response, whether it be to another pandemic or to an economic downturn, cannot be tax and subsidise, tax and subsidise, restrict and restrain. we need to liberate. we need to liberate businesses, lower tax, less regulation, we need to liberate people, letting them live their lives rather than dictating to them . than dictating to them. >> now, this is the last question for looking backwards. but of the last five conservative prime ministers, who was the best? >> look, this is this is this is great for generating headlines. they all had their strengths and weaknesses. i had a chance to work with with all of them. >> so surely you should know who is the best. >> so the point is, you learn

from all of them. but ultimately this is this is about me putting myself to be a prime minister of the uk. so i, i look at what worked, i look at what worked. >> i'm going to press you for an answer. who was going to get one? you're not going to say who was the best because. >> no, because that would that that it's great for generating headlines, but it's not that useful. so as i say, i've learnt i've worked closely with them all. i've seen what has worked and what has worked less well. i am thinking about how i would be prime minister how i would prioritise , reform of our public prioritise, reform of our public services , how i would reduce services, how i would reduce tax, how i would ease the burden of regulation, how i would liberate people to live their best lives. so i'm looking forward, not backwards. >> you've spoken a lot about how you want to cut taxes and reduce spending. why then, do you support a universal welfare benefit for everyone over the age of 65? >> well, the point is the labour government has been deeply dishonest about its rationale

for doing this. it has done it with no notice and with no mandate. there are constituents in my, constituency. there are people in my constituency who relied on that winter fuel allowance to buy their fuel oil for the winter, and they've discovered very, very late, too late for them to do anything about it. they will not be getting it. it's deeply unfair. now, how we look at supporting older people. there is a legitimate conversation to be had. but lying about the rationale for stripping this at no notice totally unacceptable and has put a lot of older people in a very, very difficult place. >> do you think there's a risk here that the conservative party starts attacking the labour party from the left, saying they're not spending enough and that that becomes the attack of this government? that's that's perverse. no, no. >> others might. but that's not my attack. the point is their their proposed solution would actually be more expensive, more costly. and the broader point is they were really dishonest. they

hid their proposals from the british people through the general election . they they general election. they they claimed they had to do it whilst simultaneously giving a £9 billion pay rise to their union mates. it's the dishonesty and the hypocrisy which is the real sin here. >> now, you were the first foreign secretary this country has ever had of african heritage. from that perspective, what did you make of what david lammy had to say at the united nafions lammy had to say at the united nations earlier this week, talking about his perspective as a black man? >> well, it's all about david, isn't it? i cannot believe the uk foreign secretary went to the united nations in a debate about ukraine, and somehow managed to make it about himself. the labour party, i think, are really bruised by the fact that it was the conservatives who had the first, second and third female prime minister, the first asian prime minister, the first black foreign secretary, the first muslim home secretary. they hate it because they like

that tokenistic identity politics. we just get on with the job. that's all i've ever done. david is desperately trying to make it about identity politics. when i was foreign secretary, i made it about uk's national interest on the world stage. that's the difference between saying stuff and doing stuff. i've always focused on doing stuff rather than just saying stuff. >> now, one of the reasons why the conservatives lost, and this seems to be agreed across the board, is that the party appeared incompetent in government. how do you prove competence in opposition when the most senior elected conservative with any power in this country is now the mayor of the tees valley? >> well, we've got to recognise that the british people kicked us out for a reason, and they kicked us out because of the gulf between what we said and what we did. so we need to promise less, but deliver on everything. we promise. and we need to make sure that in the areas where we do still run stuff, whether it be on the tees valley or county councils or district councils, that we deliver well, which is why the

integration between westminster and our local government base is so important . how we run our own so important. how we run our own party so important. how we run our own party is absolutely key . if we party is absolutely key. if we act professionally within the party, people will have confidence that the party will act professionally when we get back into. >> just finally, the leadership contest, of course, is determined. the week of the us presidential presidential election. were you an american citizen? would you back trump or kamala harris? >> i'm not an american citizen. i've worked with the trump administration. i've worked with kamala harris when she was vice president of the us, as leader of the conservative party and as a future prime minister, i will make sure i work with whoever the american people choose. >> but you won't back either one, because i'm not an american. tom well, there we go. james cleverly i tried to get an answer from you on that last one. ever. the diplomat, once a foreign secretary always foreign secretary james cleverly there. conservative leadership candidate. now coming up next, the tory leadership candidate, tom tugendhat will be joining us live at this stand. stay tuned

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show with me. tom harwood putting the tom in. tom. well, i'm delighted to be joined now by another tom, tom tugendhat, a tory leadership candidate and a member of parliament for tonbridge. tom, first of all, thanks for joining us. tonbridge. tom, first of all, thanks forjoining us. i'm going to ask one question to kick off. were you ever in the army? >> i may have been, tom. i may have been. i have to say, that's the best intro i've had to camilla's show. she's she's an absolute star. but i think putting the tom in tom is the way we need to look at this. >> well, marvellous. i mean, the reason i ask the question, of course, is that your campaign focuses heavily on the idea of serving on the idea of your past in the armed forces. does it lean too heavily on that? >> no. i think it focuses really on leadership, actually. and that's the thing that we've been crying out for in this country

because look at the challenges that we're facing around the world. look at the events that you're seeing. you've reported on them in the middle east. look at the challenges that we're seeing across europe. look at the way that germany is really struggling today. these are really crises of leadership. these are choices that people have made that are the wrong choices. and we need to make the right choices. we need to invest in our country. we need to build more houses. we need to build more houses. we need to build more infrastructure. we need to generate cheaper energy. we need to make sure we are leading a conservative revolution in this country that delivers for the british people. that's why i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on leadership and i'm focusing on trust because we need to deliver. >> now all of the other candidates in this race have held senior cabinet posts. you, of course, have been in government, but only attending cabinet rather than being a full cabinet minister. does it hurt you that you have the least government experience of any of the candidates? >> i'm not going to hold against them their lack of experience on them their lack of experience on the front line in combat. i'm not going to hold against them for their lack of experience in serious operational theatres like iraq and afghanistan. i'm not going to hold against them their, you know, their record of

their, you know, their record of the past few years. my job is to set forward my record and demonstrate what i can offer this country. and what i'm championing is the leadership that we need to make sure that this country goes in a different direction. what do you mean when you say you're not going to hold against them the record of the last four years? >> well, i'm not going to. >> well, i'm not going to. >> what i'm going to do is i'm going to set a set. >> are you implying that that record was not a good one? >> i'm what i'm saying is that we need to look to the future to and the leadership that this country needs. now. it's for you for and other journalists to judge our record. my job is to make sure we're setting out the leadership for the future. now, you've already reported on many aspects of the last four years, aspects of the last four years, as we both know what we now need to do is make sure we make the next four years different so that we are actually ready for government in four years time. because the truth is, just look at what was happening in liverpool. the reporting from liverpool. the reporting from liverpool demonstrated what we all know. this labour government is not fit to govern this country. they have demonstrated themselves to be venal, vindictive and they have demonstrated themselves to have

interests that serve themselves, not the british people. we need to be ready in four years time because we need a conservative prime minister, and i'm standing to be that prime minister. >> we're going to briefly look back over the last 14 years. i want you to name the single most conservative thing, the last 14 years of conservative or conservative led government has done. >> education reform. look at the way in which we trust the british people. when we trust the british people, we get results that transform opportunities for everyone by trusting teachers, by trusting school parents to choose. we free people and freedom is the underpinning of isn't it telling that the most conservative thing of the last 14 years of conservative government happened dunng conservative government happened during a coalition with the liberal democrats? well, it happened under a conservative prime minister and with conservative visionaries. the fact that there were lib dems who happened to be watching doesn't actually change the reality. what we need to make sure is we are delivering conservative policies like that. so we're transforming health, we're transforming energy, we're transforming the infrastructure of our country. and actually building the opportunity for us all. >> now , what was the least

>> now, what was the least conservative thing that the last 14 years of government oversaw? >> well, it was vaccine passports, and that's why i voted against it, because frankly, freedom isn't just in the good times. it's when things are difficult. that's when we need the freedom to challenge , need the freedom to challenge, to change, and to have a different perspective on what our country can offer. that's why i have always championed freedom. that's why i've defended freedom, not just here, but i've literally fought on the frontline of freedom for our country. and why i've always called out the dictators in moscow, in beijing, or tehran who've tried to silence us, and they've sanctioned me for it. >> now, you mentioned vaccine passports , which you voted passports, which you voted against. you also voted against the national insurance increase that was brought in and then reversed under the last government. why do you think, despite these issues, you still have somewhat of a reputation as being on the left of the conservative party? >> that's really a question for you, tom. i'm just a conservative, right? what i do is i champion freedom. i champion opportunity, i champion families because those are conservative values. those are the building blocks of freedom.

that's how we achieve the results and the opportunities and frankly, the growth that this country has been lacking for too many years now. i have always said that we need to make sure people keep more of their own wealth. that's why i didn't support the rise in national insurance charges. i'm delighted that the government eventually followed my lead there, and that's why i've also championed full expensing, another policy where businesses can keep the money they invest. so they get better productivity policy. >> i mean, you've backed many tax cuts and you were staunch on vaccine passports . you must have vaccine passports. you must have anidea vaccine passports. you must have an idea about why some of your colleagues think that you're more centrist than, than others. >> well, i think it's i think people like the fact that i'm able to talk to people from across the political spectrum, and i'm proud of that. look, i am very proud of the fact that i have really, really close friends who used to vote reform, but who are coming back to support me. i've got really good friends who have supported the lib dems but are coming back to support me. i've got friends who voted green or labour. we need to make sure we are making

converts, not enemies, and that means making sure we're attracting people who see the conservative values that we champion and recognise them as they own. whether they used to support reform or whether they used to support any other party. >> now, you've mentioned a few times in this conversation about building things, building infrastructure, building houses. what do you make of the labour party's proposal that they announced last weekend of planning passports , where they planning passports, where they will almost be an automatic right to build on brownfield land in principle? is that a goodidea? >> well, in principle, making sure that building has less regulation, that planning has less obstacles to jump through is really important. that's how you give young people the chance to have a home. that's how you give businesses the chance to grow. but let me just tell you one thing, tom. i have seen so many labour plans over so many years and the devil is always in the detail. there is always an element of state control that comes in. keir has been clear about it. socialists are clear about it. socialists are clear about it. socialists are clear about it. socialism means taking control from you and giving it to them . to them. >> so no chance you'll back the labour party's proposals on

planning, even if they're deregulatory, if they are making real conservative changes, i'll back them. now, an interesting question for someone with a military background. this weekend we've learned that boris johnson was ready to invade the netherlands in order to retrieve vaccines that are not vaccines. yes, vaccines that the uk had procured but the eu was withholding from us. good idea or bad idea? >> i think i think two of boris's best ideas were supporting ukraine and getting business involved with the vaccine programme, so that we got the fastest rollout. i think this reads to me like boris, bofisis this reads to me like boris, boris is having fun with the readers of the daily mail. >> i've spoken to a special adviser who worked for boris at that time, who told me it was exactly what happened that that was true. he got military leaders to draw up plans to send in the sas or other special forces into the netherlands to retrieve vaccines. >> netherlands is a very important nato ally. we train their navy, we train their royal marines. they are a really important ally. marines. they are a really important ally . you know, it's

important ally. you know, it's 400 years since we've been to war with the dutch. and i think the war of chatham docks has really that's a that's a little bit in the past. okay, okay. >> i was pushing you hard there , >> i was pushing you hard there, but we're not going to get war with any european union country. from your lips, any moment. no. >> okay. announcing the invasion of france. >> no. okay. i'm not even catholic. no. okay. we're going to move on. of course, the conservative party voters split across many different parties at the election. some went off to the election. some went off to the lib dems, some went off to reform. many sat on their hands and some voted labour. how do you persuade all of the dissuaded , dissatisfied tories dissuaded, dissatisfied tories to come back? how do you find a message that reaches that broader spectrum? >> well, tom, the truth is i've spoken at constituency events and at public events over the last ten years. i don't know how many thousand i've done and over the last six months, i've certainly done many hundreds, both during the election when i was knocking on doors around the united kingdom. and then recently, of course, for this, for this phase of the leadership election. and one of the things

that really strikes me is the thing that people really want to see is they want to see leadership, they want trust back in politics, and they want to see us delivering. frankly, they were angry, and i get it. they were angry, and i get it. they were really, really angry. what they saw in the conservative party over the last few years was self—service. they saw us being introspective, not supporting the british people, not looking at what was in the best interest of our country. we need to turn that around. now, the truth is, the conservative party does deliver and we can deliver. and when we champion conservative values, that's when people come to us. because the natural values of the british people are conservative. they're based on hard work, on family, on opportunity, and on real drive to make this country better. >> now, you stood to be leader of the conservative party two years ago. why do you think you didn't win? why didn't the party vote for you? >> well, i think there are many, many reasons why the party was in a different position then we were actually in government and were actually in government and we saw shenanigans and game playing , resulting we saw shenanigans and game playing, resulting in we saw shenanigans and game playing , resulting in two playing, resulting in two elections in a very short space of time. i'm here to end that game playing. we've had enough

of the political games that have made this party, frankly, more of a westminster club than a national movement. we need to get back to being a national movement that champions the values of the british. >> but you didn't win. then why can you win now? >> because this is a different election. what we're now talking aboutis election. what we're now talking about is being reforming the conservative party, making sure we clean up cchq we change the way that this party works so that we can change the way that this country works. that's what we've got to do. that's what i'm going to do. so that in four years time, the british people will have the chance to vote for either a socialist who's already started destroying britain, or a conservative who's ready to rebuild it. i'm standing to be prime minister in four years time. >> you've mentioned the freedom loving ethos of this party of the british people, should people who protest politicians who wave placards that call politicians of colour coconuts? should those people be arrested for the placards they hold? >> look, i've always been clear that when politics is free, you

can say what you like. when you're seeing the incitement to racial hatred that you've sometimes seen, then that is simply wrong. now the judge has ruled on this, and i'm not going to second guess the judiciary. but frankly, i think racism in pubuc but frankly, i think racism in public life is utterly vile. it degrades everybody. mostly it degrades everybody. mostly it degrades the person who's doing it . but it's frankly absolutely it. but it's frankly absolutely despicable that we've seen people using such racial epithets across this country. and it's absolutely wrong. >> some might say that a conservative peer, baroness warsi, no longer conservative peen warsi, no longer conservative peer, was removed from the party for free speech. what do you make of that charge? >> no, she was removed from the party for repeating racist slurs. >> finally. and this is a question that, of course, all of the candidates were asked famously in 2019. it's a question that keir starmer has studiously avoided answering . i studiously avoided answering. i hope you can answer it now. have you done any illegal drugs in your past? >> i'm afraid not. no. i did handle an awful lot of opium when i was a soldier in afghanistan, but i'm afraid that

was to burn it, not to not to use it. >> well, tom tugendhat, thank you so much for us us here on camilla tominey show i really appreciate up the

if i was rubbing people up the wrong way, it wouldn't be them. all the ministers who worked in my department are supporting my leadership. i think that people want some directness now. people want some directness now. people want to hear politicians speak their minds rather than hide behind waffly waffly language. and the thing about me rubbing up colleagues the wrong way is not true. it's something put about by people who are competing against me. i get on with my colleagues. now, of course, there is a yellow card system in this race where if candidates or camps directly brief against other candidates, they are told to stop. >> do you think this has been a clean race? >> i think it has been very interesting where some candidates have set out their stall and other candidates are talking about, everybody else. i mean, it was really interesting on the laura kuenssberg show today. robert jenrick was on just before me, and he said two things about me that weren't true. one, that i've said that numbers don't matter. numbers do matter when it comes to immigration. i said so in an op ed and that i'm opposed to a

cap. i'm not opposed to a cap. i just think that you can have a cap and the wrong people still come in. i want us to talk about who is coming into our country. >> do you think that robert jenrick campaign should have a yellow card put against him for those comments? this morning? >> do you know what i think? that whenever people do things that are you know, about other candidates, people can see so i'm just focused on my own campaign. it's for the party authorities to decide. i'm very happy to correct the record, but it shows that he's not actually reading or listening to what i'm saying. >> now, would you serve in robert jenrick cabinet or any other of your potential, anyone who might win this contest, would you serve in any of their cabinets in any position? >> yes, and that is because i certainly serve in the cabinet of any of the contenders standing, because we need to make sure that we all pull our weight when it comes to this , weight when it comes to this, this parliament. there are only 121 conservative mps. we are so few. we're going to need

everybody to work harder. if we're ever going to get back to government. >> now, this is something i'm asking everyone, what is something that you can name that the labour government has done well? so far in their first three months in office, something labour has done well? >> well, you asked , you know, >> well, you asked, you know, you asked this. i actually was thinking about this the other day because i like to give people the benefit of the doubt. and there is nothing that they have done well. winter fuel payment two tier care on policing, treating one group differently from another, stripping away, ofsted inspections. parents don't know what's going on with schools taxing vat. you know , taxing taxing vat. you know, taxing education. i know a hairdresser who's taking her daughter out of private education because it's too just much. this labour government are terrible because they have no principles. they're just doing things without thinking. we were not ready for the election. they were not ready for government . ready for government. >> now, you have prided yourself on your principles and you've stood for the leadership beforehand. one of the things that you said in the past was

that you said in the past was that it that you said in the past was thatitis that you said in the past was that it is ridiculous that the state takes money from working taxpayers and gives it in benefits to millionaires who are retired. yes. is that not, then, a good thing that the labour party is doing in means testing winter fuel allowance, but it's not really means testing. >> they're just taking it away from anyone who doesn't have pension credit. millionaires should not be getting the winter fuel payments , but there are fuel payments, but there are many more people who are in poverty or who are just about managing who need it. but the other reason why i'm opposed to it happening the way they've doneit it happening the way they've done it is because government has made energy more expensive . has made energy more expensive. the us energy is half the cost of ours. we add levies , we make of ours. we add levies, we make it expensive. so we should protect those people who can't work, who need the winter fuel payment. let's means test it better. >> now, one of the reasons why american energy is half the cost, or even less than that in the united kingdom, is they extract their shale gas. do you think we should start fracking in the united kingdom? >> you ask? this is a very controversial question , tom, controversial question, tom, because you will remember that the fracking vote was the vote

that brought down liz truss's government. >> despite the vote passing. >> despite the vote passing. >> yes, indeed. but it was very controversial. i think that if we are going to do something like fracking shale gas, we're going to need the public to buy into it. and they're not there. they're not there yet. i am personally not opposed to it, but i wouldn't be starting out , but i wouldn't be starting out, putting out policies there because i know that the communities don't want it. and we have to work with a lot of communities in order to do difficult things. >> now, of course, you shadow angela rayner. you've had some pretty punchy performances across the dispatch boxes to and from one another, i want to ask you specifically about the policy that the labour party proposed last weekend. it looks like they're pushing ahead with it. it's pretty radical planning. passports where you will automatically be able to build on brownfield land. i mean, does that not sound like something that you've been advocating the idea of building more in our cities and potentially less on green fields? >> it sounds like a good idea, but if you actually look at the detail, that's not actually what

they're proposing. what they're proposing is, well, should we ask people maybe, perhaps in certain circumstances we might do this , but we're not going to do this, but we're not going to override local consent. we're not going to do you know, there's so many caveats to it. it is not serious when you realise that they have given urban areas lower housing targets, they're lowering the housing targets for places like london. so they're not going to achieve that. they are not consistent. that policy that they put out is not coherent. if you read it , they put out is not coherent. if you read it, you can see it's all over the place. and this is what i was explaining to angela, who i actually quite like as a, as a persona. she, she is one of those people who just hates tories. i'm not somebody who hates people because of their political beliefs. >> i quite like her persona. does she hate all tories? >> well, she called us scum, so i think that's pretty. that's pretty visceral. and she's never really apologised for it, at least not to my knowledge . but least not to my knowledge. but she doesn't understand the policy. when she's standing there. she's reading a script that somebody else has written for her. when i asked questions, she answered different questions. >> there's something you said at the beginning of that answer, criticising the labour party's

policy because it doesn't override local consent. enough would your ideal policy override local consent ? local consent? >> well, that's the point i'm making, is that if you're going to have automatic brownfield development, then that means you're overriding local consent, right? if they've put that in there and said we're not going to do that, then it's not really automatic. that's why i say the policy is not coherent. there's lots of stuff in there that just doesn't add up. >> okay. we're going to move on to international affairs. now. would you vote for trump or kamala harris? i'm not an american citizen, and i never answer this question. >> i used to when it was a pub quiz. but as somebody who's been trade secretary and met people from all parties in other countries, they don't like it when we comment on their internal politics. i'm not a junior politician anymore . i'm junior politician anymore. i'm not just, you know, having a fun time on a sunday show. i'm running to be leader of my party, and that means that i need to be able to work with whoever is leading the, you know, countries that are our allies. and that may be donald trump, that may be kamala harris. i respect them both, and i would work well with them.

>> the prime minister has been at the united nations in new york this week. he's met with donald trump. he dined with donald trump. he dined with donald trump. he dined with donald trump in a quite intimate setting. i almost said romantic there, but i think i should probably row back from that. david lammy has been speaking at the un as well. you're a very senior politician of african heritage. i want to ask you what you made of david lammy's speech at the un, where he spoke about his own personal experiences as a black man. >> i didn't think that the comments were serious. i could tell that he was very passionate, but i would draw the wrong analogy. sometimes we need to be able to say things are wrong on principle, not just on our personal experience. there's often a place for personal experience , but the war that experience, but the war that russia is waging in ukraine violates so many moral principles. obviously, he's well within his rights to use that analogy. it's not one that i would personally use. but david lammy is somebody who has repeatedly , you know, said, made repeatedly, you know, said, made remarks that he's had to row back on. so i don't think that

he's as good a foreign secretary as david cameron or even james cleverly was. we need conservatives doing these jobs and i just think overall labour are hypocrites. >> what do you think the most? the thing they got most right was, oh, we got a lot right. >> we don't talk about it enough early on. certainly under david cameron . what we did in cameron. what we did in education was fantastic . education was fantastic. labour's already rowing back on that. the education standards that. the education standards that we brought in, you can compare with snp run scotland and labour run wales. england has shot up international rankings, wales has gone backwards. scotland so far backwards. scotland so far backwards they don't even want to publish the figures anymore. well, perhaps it's the other way round, but that is a clear example of where conservatives in government deliver opportunity for people. >> now in the telegraph today, i think you've written, if necessary, we will leave international frameworks like the echr. this is an article where you're talking about controlling illegal migration. is that not a bit weaselly language? if necessary, we will leave the international frameworks like the echr. that's rishi sunak's policy.

>> i'm not sure that it is his policy, but what i am saying. >> rishi sunak as prime minister, said he wouldn't commit to leaving the echr, but said that nothing was off the table. he would leave it if necessary. is that not your policy? >> yes, that is that is my policy. but the point i'm making is that we're not in government. so whether we want to leave the echr today, it's not going to matter. the problem we have, and this is what is different between me and rob. the problem we have is that the public don't trust us. it doesn't matter if we throw out a thousand great promises, people don't believe we will do them because we didn't do them before. how do we earn that trust back? that's why i wrote that numbers matter, but culture matters even more and leadership is the critical thing . leadership is the critical thing. if the prime minister is not personally driving it, it won't happen. but the other thing that i say is that even if we left the echr today, we still wouldn't be deporting people. there are countries in the echr that are deporting more than us. thatis that are deporting more than us. that is a culture problem. we have people in the home office who don't want to do this work. it doesn't matter what

frameworks you leave. if you can't get the people to do the job, you're wasting your time. i am an engineer, so i think about how to make the system work. rob is a lawyer. he's going to talk about laws, laws and legalese. my about laws, laws and legalese. my way will work. his is another promise. >> okay, i've got so many more questions i'd like to ask you, but i've only got time for one. in a word, if you would. is it good for your campaign now that your supporter, michael gove is the incoming editor of the spectator? >> michael gove is not running my campaign. i'm running my campaign. i don't know what he's going to be like at the spectator. i will miss fraser nelson, who was a good colleague when i worked there. i used to work for andrew neil at the spectator about ten years ago, so i care very much about that magazine. it is an important voice for the centre right. we need more conservative voices and the good thing or bad thing, i don't know. we will have to wait and see. we shouldn't judge people before they start a job. let's see what he does. okay. >> kemi badenoch, thank you so much for joining >> kemi badenoch, thank you so much forjoining us here on the much for joining us here on the camilla tominey programme. really appreciate your time. well, up next we're going to hear from our final tory

leadership candidate, robert jenrick back with interview in three minutes.

robert jenrick can you name something you think the new labour government has done well since coming into office? >> well, look, i'm i'm pleased that they are turning their attention to how we get more homes built in this country. we need to build homes, we need more industry and infrastructure. unfortunately, they're going about it in the wrong way . they're doing wrong way. they're doing precisely the opposite of what i want to do. they're slashing the housing targets in the big cities, and they're hiking them in the countryside and in places where there isn't demand for housing. so the idea is right. but the policies are wrong. if i was leader of our party and ultimately prime minister, i want to get young people onto the housing ladder with serious but radical changes to our planning system. >> can you imagine backing any policy that sir keir starmer puts forward in the house of commons? >> i've already said that the

nhs needs reform, and if wes streeting and keir starmer come forward with genuine reforms in the national interest that improve productivity, so that we actually talk about outputs, not just inputs, i would support them. now i'm sceptical because them. now i'm sceptical because the revealed preference of this labour government is to cave to in the vested interest to the trade unions, but i've made that offer to them. i think the pubuc offer to them. i think the public want to see their opposition behave in a mature way, where there are good things , way, where there are good things, support them where they're making mistakes, like taking the winter fuel allowance away from 10 million pensioners, vigorously oppose them . vigorously oppose them. >> now, in the 2019 leadership contest, all the questions were asked about their personal history with regard to drug taking. it became a bit of a farce really. we heard lots of different stories from lots of different stories from lots of different candidates. i'm going to ask the same question to you now. have you ever taken illegal drugs? keir starmer said he had fun at university. what do you think that meant ? think that meant? >> i don't know, we'll have to ask keir starmer. he doesn't.

doesn't look like the kind of guy that had a lot of fun at university. >> okay, we're going to turn to the conservative government of the conservative government of the last 14 years. now what was the last 14 years. now what was the most conservative reform that you think was actually achieved under those 14 years? >> probably the welfare reforms that happened in the early days under iain duncan smith and esther mcvey. i thought that was morally right. making work pay, getting people off welfare back into the dignity of work and obviously right for the economy. one of the things i've been talking about in this leadership election is we've got to do exactly the same now, because there are millions of people in our country who are on welfare. we need them to get back into the workplace. and that is also one of the ways in which we end mass migration, because we don't want companies to be reaching for the easy lever of foreign labour bringing people into our country for whom we don't have the homes, the public services to look after them , and which to look after them, and which makes it much more difficult to build the united , cohesive build the united, cohesive country that i want to see. so a

proper conservative agenda on welfare reform is essential. >> so welfare was the most right wing thing you think the government did ? what do you government did? what do you think the most left wing thing that the previous government did was? >> i think probably the mistake of not being reformers. you look at something like the nhs . we at something like the nhs. we became obsessed by boasting about the amount of money we were putting into it, not what the actual experience was for the actual experience was for the patients. we treated the nhs like a religion to be worshipped, not a public service to be reformed. we've got to change that. i want a small state that works, not a big state that works, not a big state that works, not a big state that fails. >> there were, of course, five conservative prime ministers over the last 14 years. some lasted longer than others. who do you think was the best? >> i think that's very hard to say. i served as a minister under each of those five conservative prime ministers, all very different people. i think if i look back on that period, my greatest regret is that none of them had a very

clear sense of where they want to take this country. that is what i want to do. while i've been using this leadership election to do is have a clear diogo jota, i'm going to press you for an answer and be clear of the most effective, the best, your favourite of the last five conservative prime ministers. i think i'm not going to answer that, tom, because i think they were different people. i think bofis were different people. i think boris got brexit done a great achievement, which will be a lasting reform to our country. but all of them had their strengths and their weaknesses. what i want to do is learn the lessons from that period and put forward the serious answers to the big challenges that are now facing. >> okay, you've named boris. let's dive into something that has popped up into the news this weekend . would you have asked weekend. would you have asked your advisers in number 10? were your advisers in number 10? were you prime minister to round up the army, potentially invade the netherlands and grab vaccines that the uk had procured? that the eu was holding back? >> well, i do remember the frustration at that time. i remember sitting in meetings things and in cabinet meetings where we were discussing the

issue that we had vaccines, that we had ordered in other countries, which were not for a penod countries, which were not for a period of time able to get back to serve our own people. so there's a serious point to be lie—in that. >> but would you have called in the army? >> well, i don't think that's what boris was suggesting. i think he was showing was the immense frustration at that time that there were vaccines that we had procured, which were not being made available for our own people , that the job of the people, that the job of the prime minister is to put the interest of the british people first. >> boris johnson has written in his book that he convened military leaders in order. >> i wasn't privy to that conversation, tom, so i don't know exactly. >> do you think in principle it would have been a good idea? >> i don't know the details of it, tom. what i do know is that we managed to deliver the fastest and best vaccine programme in the world, and that is an achievement for boris, for the conservative party and for the conservative party and for the whole country. >> now the conservative party and all leadership candidates are heavily critical of the labour party's position on winter fuel allowance. under your leadership, will the

conservative party really be backing a policy that takes taxpayer's money away from working people and gives it to many people who happen to be millionaires ? millionaires? >> look, the issue here is twofold. one is the fact that labour never said they were going to do this during the election campaign. so the dishonesty here hiding this from the public. and the other point is the choice that's being made here. keir starmer is making a political choice to give to money his union paymasters, for example, £10,000 a year to train drivers who are already well paid without properly settling the strikes . £8 billion to ed the strikes. £8 billion to ed miliband's fantasy energy company doesn't produce any energy whatsoever, and he's taking it from 10 million pensioners. >> one might say the conservative position here would to be do neither. >> of course, there are some people who are on good incomes, but there are also millions of pensioners who are not, and there are pensioners who are on as little as £13,000 a year, who this autumn and winter, when energy prices are on the rise,

are going to be £600 worse off. >> are you really saying that as a conservative party leader, you will be supporting universal welfare rather than targeted welfare rather than targeted welfare for people if they happen to be older? >> those issues very carefully. the difficulty with means testing is always that it is the difficulty with means harder than you might imagine. but the point here is. keir starmer is making a choice. i think it's a bad choice, a selfish choice, and it reveals a lot about his personality and his politics. giving to money placate his union paymasters, taking it away from poor pensioners. i think that's shameful. >> well, the times this weekend has alleged that your campaign did not want you to be questioned by camilla tominey dunng questioned by camilla tominey during this conference. how do you respond to that allegation? >> that's not that's not true. you know me, tom. i submit myself to interviews by people like yourself every day. but i've done more interviews than any other candidate on this leadership contest, so i think

i've done as many as all of them combined. i've done over 100 events where i've been meeting members in all four nations of the country. i've been on camilla's show multiple times this year, have the highest respect for her. what i actually want to see is we candidates for this important job, subjected to the highest degree of scrutiny. that's why tomorrow i'm holding my own event where members can ask me questions, where i'm going to set out my vision for the future of our party and our country. >>

well . well. >> good evening. it's 7:00. i'm sophia wenzler with your headlines. rishi sunak has addressed the conservative party conference in birmingham for the last time as party leader. the former prime minister apologised former prime minister apologised for the general election loss and joked about sir keir

starmer's ongoing gifting controversy. it's such a hot ticket. >> i'm surprised that keir starmer hasn't asked somebody to buy him one. >> now i want to start by saying thank you. >> thank you for everything that you do for our party and the support that you've always given us through me. you all work tirelessly during the election campaign , and i am only sorry campaign, and i am only sorry that i could not deliver the result that your efforts deserved. and as you know , as deserved. and as you know, as you know, this is my final conference as leader . and new conference as leader. and new leader of our party will be announced in just five weeks time. >> earlier, the conference kicked off with tory leadership hopeful robert jenrick criticising rival kemi badenoch for saying maternity pay is excessive. speaking to times radio, kemi badenoch said maternity pay has gone too far and the government needed to interfere less in people's lives. mrjenrick

interfere less in people's lives. mr jenrick responded to the comments ,