it? and have been done to save it? and the rise have been done to save it.7 and the rise of the populist continued, this time in austria? your thoughts ? on all of that your thoughts? on all of that and more. but first, at 6:00, news. >> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler with your headlines at 6:00. tory leadership contender kemi badenoch has now said that we should find a way to make life easier for those who are starting families. miss badenoch was speaking at an event with the conservative women's organisation and said people are now scared to have families. this comes fresh off the back of comments she made over the level of maternity pay being excessive. miss badenoch has since gone back on this, saying her comment was part of a longer discussion on maternity pay is quite important and this was actually a long discussion. >> we were having about the role

of the state in deciding what businesses should do. we need to decide who's going to be leader of the party, not the left, not the guardian, not the bbc, just conservatives. i was interrupted as i was answering a different question. the point i'm making is that if we lighten the burden on business, they will be able to help solve these problems rather than what kate was asking me should the government increase it? should the government do this or that? there is too much government already. things aren't getting any better. maybe we should try something else. >> meanwhile, in other news, the uk's top civil servant, simon case, has announced he will step down at the end of the year on health grounds. cabinet secretary mr case, who has been undergoing treatment for a neurological condition, told colleagues whilst the spirit remains willing, the body is not to the middle east now, where it's being reported that israel has informed the us of plans for a potential ground assault on lebanon. it comes as the country's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, said there is nowhere in the middle east

that israel cannot reach. meanwhile, reuters is reporting that hezbollah has attacked israel using a ballistic missile. it comes after the lebanese prime minister said up to i million people have been displaced as fighting between israel and the terror group hezbollah continues. the uk government has confirmed this afternoon that it secured more seats on commercial aircrafts to allow british nationals to leave lebanon. the bbc has apologised to former strictly come dancing contestant amanda abbington, saying it had assessed and upheld some, but not all, of her complaints about giovanni pernice behaviour during her time on the show. bbc management have upheld six out of 17 allegations, some of which are for the professional dancer's use of swear words . in use of swear words. in a statement this afternoon, mr pennis said he was pleased the bbc had not found any evidence of threatening or abusive behaviour by him . and finally, behaviour by him. and finally, the duke of sussex is in the uk

today to celebrate the achievements and resilience of seriously ill youngsters and their families. seriously ill youngsters and theirfamilies. prince seriously ill youngsters and their families. prince harry seriously ill youngsters and theirfamilies. prince harry is their families. prince harry is attending the wellchild awards ceremony in london in his role as the charity's patron, a position he's held for more than 15 years. those are the latest gb news headlines. now it's back to michelle for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me, my panel, michelle donelan, the former culture secretary and james schneider, the former adviser to jeremy corbyn. good evening to both of you. also, good evening to each and every one of you at home. it's not just about us. you can

get in touch with me all the usual ways. email gbviews@gbnews.com. go to the website gbnews.com. slash yourself. or of course you can tweet or text me , but look big tweet or text me, but look big day to day for the conservative party. their conference continues. let's cross live there. to christopher hope, our political editor. there. to christopher hope, our political editor . christopher, political editor. christopher, good evening to you. what have we missed? >> good evening michelle. yeah, welcome to the icc here in birmingham. it's been a busy day of course, this party is out of government. 121 mps. but you wouldn't know it. it's so busy. part of the reason why is that all of these , all of the all of these, all of the conference was booked and paid for before they called the early general election . and the idea general election. and the idea had been, i think that everyone thought that as much just to be a final pre—election party conference for the tory party. instead, the conference is still big, but the party's got small, to misquote a famous film star in the sense that you have got a small party now, but what's

happening here is you've got these four candidates wandering around here, tom tugendhat and kevin badenoch. there are two of them, and james cleverly, and robert jenrick now badenoch and, and tugendhat there on stage with me earlier, answering questions from party members and from, from me, representing gb news to see what what they had to say about their policies. i think it's quite interesting you heard from tom tugendhat. he was saying that the an apology for the infighting to the members that let you down. you couldn't really fight a whale for the seats when you're fighting amongst amongst ourselves, he said. and his job is to reform the tories, not become reform. so both badenoch and tugendhat agreed on that . don't go towards agreed on that. don't go towards reform, don't do a deal with them. stand where you are and believe in something to attract those voters back, he also paid credit to boris johnson, saying he did something amazing in office. on ukraine and covid. so lots of support there . and he lots of support there. and he talked a lot about his time in the army as an army officer until 2013 for a decade, and his

active service in iraq and afghanistan . kemi badenoch she afghanistan. kemi badenoch she said that this party is in an existential crisis at this point, they need to get on and reform and find new ways of telling a story, she said that if you vote for kevin bacon or if you vote for kevin bacon or if you're a tory member, if she becomes leader, a lot of things will change. i think they should rethink what the tory party is for . and that may be what a for. and that may be what a party with 121 mps needs. he denied there was a stop kemi kemp and she said she would review the net zero target and she defended her remarks about maternity pay, saying that many people had misquoted her but not not times radio. but others had misquoted her and in fact she was talking about overall the impact of regulation on companies. so all to play for. and tomorrow i'm doing the same again. an hour each with with robert jenrick, and james cleverly. so tune in 2 to 4 on the channel and all day for the best coverage. >> interesting stuff chris have you got your tugendhat fixed?

hang on by any chance ? hang on by any chance? >> no i haven't. michelle i'm not even wearing a tugendhat tattoo either, so i'm inc. free today inc free. >> there you go. thank you very much for that update. if you don't know what i'm referring to, there are, temporary tattoos for one of the leadership contestants, contestants, contenders, whatever you want to call them , and fake tan. i mean, call them, and fake tan. i mean, if i ever get to a stage in life where i think to myself, i know what i need to do, i need to cover myself in the fake tan of a political candidate. i think i would have a strong word with myself in the mirror, wouldn't you, anyway, look, this is your party's moment to shine. it's not very well attended. the conference. does that bother you, >> well, it looks pretty well attended to. to me, obviously, i'm only seeing it virtually as my husband has pulled a bit of an iou with, care for my son this week with his his job, but, look, this is a totally different conference from the type of conference we've seen for the last 14 years. it's the

first one where we're actually in opposition, but it's also quite exciting because members are going to get a say over who the next leader is to be able to face that uphill challenge that we've got. so i personally backed kemi badenoch. i've done that from the very beginning of this contest, and i've done that because i think that she's straight talking. she's a fresh face with some experience, though, and i think that if we're going to take this fight to reform as well as labour, we're going to need somebody thatis we're going to need somebody that is not afraid to mince their words. >> would you cringing when she was talking about this maternity stuff. >> so look on that . there's >> so look on that. there's absolutely no question that maternity pay should not be any lower than it is. in fact, i think personally we should have a review as to what the rate should be and what the bigger issue should be on the table, which is the question of why are birth rates so low, which is storing up a problem for future generations. but kemi has been quite clear that, she, she didn't mean that she meant the question about business regulation and taxation . and we regulation and taxation. and we all know what it's like when

you're in an interview. i do, especially if you're trying to get everything out, if you possibly can in a short space of time. this is her way to communicate with members as well. she wanted to say what she wanted to say. basically, the interviewer wanted to talk about something else and the two kind of mashed together. so the output got a bit confusing. but she has got a big point about business regulation. businesses have faced far too much regulation and taxation over the years . years. >> james, i think it's a bit of a foot and mouth thing. i mean, you're a politician. you've been on many, many interviews. you might have something to say. the interviewer also is allowed to answer your questions and to come out of one, suggesting that you think that, that any an ordinary person listening to it would think that you'd said that maternity pay was excessive and statutory maternity pay because it comes out of taxation is excessive, would be would be a bad look is a mistake. i mean, we have way too little support for parents and young families in the country. not only paternity and maternity pay, but

also in childcare. and i think, you know, any political leader that's trying to engage with the pubucis that's trying to engage with the public is going to have to put forward policies that advance those things rather than attack them . them. >> someone's tweeted in as they're listening to our conversation now and said, michelle, i can't employ a woman of childbearing age because my business won't function if she takes extended time off while being replaced by an inexperienced temp at my extra cost. what do you think to that ? cost. what do you think to that? >> well, i mean, i think it's probably incumbent on that business to be able to replace somebody to cover for maternity leave. i think we need to be able to have businesses that can do that. i think that's very important. otherwise you're going to have women discriminated against at work. >> well, do you think that i think i think maternity pay is absolutely essential to be able to give women choices and chances and equality and without it, we wouldn't see as many women in the workplace. and it's

important to remember that statutory maternity pay can actually be claimed back from hmrc in the main, to one of the things on a separate note that kemi badenoch was saying today, you talk about taking the fight to reform, she said reform are not serious people. so i think the broader thing of what she was saying was that actually we need to be taking the fight to everybody who's, that's voting, that's standing against the conservative party. i forget her exact words, but she was also saying that the reform mps themselves are not serious, but themselves are not serious, but the voters who voted reform are actually our voters. in the main, the ones that voted conservative before. so of course we need to be attracting those people back if we're going to be in a position to win back the country at large. >> is that fair? do you think james, >> i mean, clearly the tories need to get votes from everywhere because they got very few in the last election, but particularly the big story of the election from the conservative side is that they lost more than half of their

votes, a big chunk of them to reform. obviously, they're going to need to get those back, but they also lost votes in lots of other directions and lots of people staying home who had voted before. so i think i don't think it's quite so simple, as if they just appeal to reform voters, then suddenly they're going to go back into government. >> but i'd agree with that. it needs to be a broad base. >> there's quite a few of you, and i have to say you are men saying, michelle, many business owners think that it's unfair that they have to spend extra money on replacing staff on maternity leave. how is that fair? i mean, i've got to say, you are all men that are giving me these kind of comments like that. are you a female business owner? do you share those concerns or not? get in touch. lots.i concerns or not? get in touch. lots. i need to talk to you about rosie duffield. she has resigned. i also need to talk about steel, tata steel and what's been going on in austria. see you in

hello everyone. michelle dewberry with you until 7:00. michelle donelan and james schneider alongside me have opened a can of worms here. i can tell you that because lots of people getting in touch and i asked for women's perspective as well. i've had women writing in as well, saying that if they were business owners, they would avoid employing women of what they say are a certain age because of the costs of it all. blimey, what do you make of all of that? look, lots of other things i need to discuss with you tonight. we speak, don't we, about growth in this country and how important the uk economy is and all the rest of it. well, today, the uk's biggest steelworks ends production after 100 years. you'll be familiar with this story, of course. by now i'm talking about tata steel in south wales, port talbot . i in south wales, port talbot. i mean, don't even get me started on the fact that one of the reasons tata are saying that they're closing this plant, one of the reasons is about things like climate concerns, but they're also simultaneously

opening a blast furnace in india. but i have to ask, do you think we've done enough in this country to protect port talbot ? country to protect port talbot? >> so i think the big issue of today is that the government are calling this a transition. but it's not really a transition because what we're seeing is a big gap. now because the blast furnace shuts and then the more environmentally friendly one isn't going to be up and running for at least five years now. whilst that won't be providing as many jobs, it'll still be providing a substantial number of jobs. so you've got nothing in that interim. and this is a government that promised to be strong on steel. they haven't come out with any response in terms of scunthorpe. >> they're saying that they're you can't blame this on labour. no, no this has been a long time. >> so this package that's put forward is similar to what we were going to put forward. and that was criticised by labour. but we also were going to bridge the gap between whereas labour have left this area high and dry in effect for the next five years, and they've said we'll come forward with a plan on steel next spring. now that is a massive gap of time. now if

they're going to tackle it, they should be tackling it now. this is a party that is supposed to stand for this cohort of people more than others. and they're not doing so. >> they've been in office about 100 days. if you're in south wales now, you i mean, this has been coming down the pike now for a very long time, but it's not the case that the conservatives did nothing on this. >> so the conservatives invested 500 million. they had this plan ready to go, but they also were going to bridge the gap. so there was a transition period. so it wasn't just left with nothing. and labour have just basically been a bit lazy here in my opinion. they've took that plan and they've not supported people throughout this period. it will be important, of course, that people are offered reskilling and upskilling opportunities, but what a massive end of an era. how tragic is this for the local community as well? >> i feel very. are you in that local community not just at the steel plant, by the way, but this will have a knock on effect at the different restaurants, cafes, whatever, right across the community. james, where are you on it, >> this is part of economic vandalism that we've seen in britain for at least 40 years.

the port talbot steel should be a key strategic industry. we need to have steel for all sorts of things . and instead of doing of things. and instead of doing what should have happened in 2016, it could have happened many years beforehand, which was to take it into public ownership. view it as a strategic industry and engage with the workers and the union there about the transition, so that there isn't a gap, so that you are able to carry on producing steel there the entire time , which would also safeguard time, which would also safeguard the jobs. but we didn't. >> we was losing a million pounds a day on this plant. so would you have nationalised those losses? >> i would have nationalised the plant. yes. so tata basically what they've done for the last eight years is say, can we have a state handout to keep it going? that's all they've asked for. not are we going to change our policy. are we going to engage with the workers. are we going to be integrated into some actual industrial strategy for where the steel is, is going to go? none of that was done. so

yes , tata steel got some money yes, tata steel got some money to carry on, carry on running it and then they can then they can shutter it. the losers are of course the workers and as you say, the community around, but also the country as a whole, because we now no longer have this strategic industry and both the tories and labour for the last few years have spoken about industrial strategy. there has been no industrial strategy. they've said the words industrial strategy, but nothing that has joined up. we are told that has joined up. we are told that we have to have and we do have to have a big energy transition, which means different types of industries. steel is very important to that. and instead of supporting our steel industry, we've let it go to the dogs. >> but when we're talking about you're talking about clean energy or whatever, it's a little bit ludicrous, really, when you're when an organisation is siting environmental concerns for closing a plant while simultaneously creating a new blast furnace in india. so, so if he was really bothered about emissions and all the rest of

it, you wouldn't be doing that. so then what happens is this chasing this desperate pursuit of net zero, everyone in this country is going well. hang on a second. why are we being disadvantaged by that? when every other, well, not every other country, but many other countries, china, india, whatever they are popping up new stations, tata have used all sorts of different excuses for why they want to shutter the plant and have been doing so for eight years. >> the answer should have been, and it would have saved us a lot of money because we wouldn't have put in the money that we put in to prop up it for still the same net result, which is that it's closing. that's why it should have been taken into into pubuc should have been taken into into public ownership. and then you could have a real plan, a proper transition plan, which would engage the workers to have it as an electric blast furnace at some point going forward. >> so you think that an experienced business couldn't make the sums stack up and make it cost effective production? but do you think the government could have done? >> yeah, because i think the incentives are different. the incentives are different. the incentives for tata steel there is to get as much money as they

can out of it. for us as a country, it would have been to have steel for our domestic industry as part of an industrial strategy. there are benefits to having steel , which benefits to having steel, which don't just go to the shareholders of the company, which we would have been able to realise as having an industrial as part of our industrial strategy. >> is that fair? what are you saying? >> no, i think i think the reality is that india, etc. are undercutting the uk, especially in labour costs. and it is important that we do invest in technology and we progress, but it's so important as well that we look after people's jobs and we look after people's jobs and we look after communities and leaving an area with nothing for a number of years . and in which a number of years. and in which case we have to then import steel , which case we have to then import steel, which is even worse for the environment. it is not a good answer. >> but then have you let down these communities though? >> well, look, tata steel have come for handouts and government support throughout the years, many, many times. and we've worked we worked with them to try and make sure that it was sustainable in the long run and as i said, invested £500 million in this in this long term plan.

but now there's no bridging of the gap and we still don't know what the government's position is on, on scunthorpe, which is the very last place that we're producing steel now. >> it's very sad, isn't it, because you've got to think these communities, many of these people will have worked there often for generations. actually, it will be, i don't know, the granddad, the dads, the sons. and then you're taking those , and then you're taking those, you know, those opportunities that you're taking people's kind of coal from them because it's not just a job. i'm sure people get paid for what they do. but it's not just about the wage and the economic thing, the sense of pride, self—dependence, so on and so forth. it goes on and on. it's very sad news. i think , for it's very sad news. i think, for wales. what do you make to it all? lots i need to discuss with you after the break. rosie duffield, she's resigned. is she going to be the first of many? also apparently she says keir starmer has got a woman problem. has he? your

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry i'm with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside me. i've got my panel michelle donelan and james schneider alongside me. lots of you getting in touch. honestly, this whole conversation that kemi badenoch, she started when she was basically saying that maternity, you know, the kind of policies etc. are a little bit to burden like for smaller businesses. so many people getting in touch saying, quite frankly, you wouldn't hire women of childbearing age. and i've got to say, it's a lot of women getting in touch and saying that to me. karen, you've just said, michelle, obviously i was resigned to the fact i had to pay, resigned to the fact i had to pay, but i had i hated and resented having to pay for accumulated annual leave on top of maternity pay when they just basically, essentially had a year off. well, that conversation will continue. neil he is in wales. we've just been talking about port talbot. he says he could sit and cry at the

state of his nation. he served this country. he says he is ashamed at how it is turning out . ashamed at how it is turning out. anyway. look, we run till 7:00. there's lots. i want to talk to you about tonight. did you see what's going on in austria? the rise of the populist, many will call them, continues . but first call them, continues. but first up, i want to talk to you, rosie duffield, of course you'll know she is the mp in canterbury. she has resigned the labour whip and i can tell you now, the letter she wrote about keir starmer is absolutely it is scathing. it's very long. if you haven't read it, i would encourage you to do. she basically cites things like the winter fuel allowance, not getting rid of the two child benefits cap. and she talks about being surrounded basically by lads and, suggests that people are perhaps going into roles without, the correct processes. is my interpretation of it. michelle, this is quite. what do you think it is? >> it's a real humdinger of a letter. i've never seen one as punchy as this one before, and

it does damage keir and the government that one of his own people is actually now saying all of this stuff and directing it at him and really pulling the string of hypocrisy, which is at the heart of a lot of people's upset and anger over the last few weeks. >> and she says as well, that she she doesn't feel that she's left the labour party. she says that she feels the labour party has left her essentially. james, your thoughts, there's a lot to agree with in the letter, a lot to agree with, and there are lots of criticisms of keir starmer and keir starmer's labour that i would share. >> but i would ask where was she when these changes were being made to the labour party by keir starmer? and why didn't she vote against the keeping the two child benefit cap and scrapping the winter fuel allowance for pensioners? and it could be the start of something a bit bigger. i mean there are 400 odd labour mps and there are unlikely to be 400 odd labour mps after the next election and for a lot of

them, they might take the calculus that being a maverick independent, if you're not part of keir starmer's in—crowd, then you're not going to be protected. i don't think if they are, then they might get given seats. you know, given nice ministerial positions. but there are only about 100 of those. and so for the calculus might change for some of them, that being a bit of a maverick independent who's well known for campaigning on 1 or 2 issues, is more likely to give them an ongoing career than being a backbencher and lobby fodder for a government as it becomes more unpopular. >> and she i mean, james says, where was she when it comes to the vote on the winter fuel and the vote on the winter fuel and the two child benefits cap? well, the answer to that was she abstained. the reason that she said she abstained is because she feels that in politics, you break into certain groups. and i saw an interview where she basically said she wants, i quote my beliefs to be represented in labour, so she wanted to stay in the labour party and influence. and i suspect we all know that she's talking about her gender

critical beliefs. what do you think? >> so i think she's also talking about her broader beliefs as well, because we know that keir was very clear on on the child benefit vote that you were they were going to lose the party whip if they voted against. and they did. and you can't change a party unless you're within a party. and you can see from the sentiment within her letter that she really wants to labour change and to be in tune and in touch with its core grassroots and its people. so i feel that she's felt very conflicted about this, because now leaving it means that she can't try and influence labour unless she can peel off more to join her. >> well, she was asked today, rosie duffield was asked a direct question about do you basically think that keir starmer is a woman problem? and she answered, yes, she does think he's got a woman problem. >> yeah. so look, from my own experience, i've got no reason to believe he has, but i've never worked that closely with him like she has. we do know that he didn't stand up for her when she was getting countless death threats and horrendous abuse, and when she was sharing views that many, many women also

share about standing up for women's rights. yeah. >> so gender critical beliefs and stuff like that. what do you think, james, >> i don't think because keir starmer hasn't been, you know, sufficiently harsh on trans people that that means he, he has a woman problem . there is has a woman problem. there is a thing about, in the briefing wars that you see between the two bits of number 10, there's supposedly the lads and then those around sue gray and that thatis those around sue gray and that that is a criticism that you hear that there's a group of men that are, one of the cliques, but not the only one, but these kind of it's hard it's hard to really discern what the person behind that kind of criminology actually thinks and operates, because it's all reflected through media reporting. and we all know that that can be a little bit, just clear as well. >> i imagine if rosie duffy was sitting here now, she would say to you , she doesn't want keir to you, she doesn't want keir starmer to be what you've just said, which is unnecessarily harsh on trans people , she would harsh on trans people, she would argue that actually what she

wants is for sex to basically mean biological sex for women's spaces, female spaces to be actually , genuinely single sex. actually, genuinely single sex. she would be very critical of self—id and things like that all perfectly reasonable policies. >> so what's the reasonable polysulphides a reasonable policy? >> no, no no no , don't confuse >> no, no no no, don't confuse me. i absolutely think self—id is absolutely absurd. so no, i don't think that's a reasonable policy. but she her positions many would say, are very reasonable that single—sex spaces should be linked to biological sex. so, for example, if you're an actual female, a biological female, you know you're not going to have a biological man in your space. >> so i don't agree with her on those issues or in the way in which she expresses herself. do you think biological men should be in female spaces? not necessarily, but i do think that that a trans woman or a trans

man is a woman or a man, and so unless there are reasons which could be, for example, in prisons or there are, i'm sure there are, there are cases where that would be the case, then they should be treated as treated as such. and that that is not in any way an attack on men or on women, i think. >> oh go on, i was just going to say, i think you've hit the nail on the head that these views are reasonable, that rosie was expressing, but she was made to feel like an extremist within her own party. and ostracised and given no support when she was stating a view that many, many women in our population are concerned about. >> so if we want to talk about someone who has had real problems and not got support, for example, there's apsana begum , who's the mp for poplar begum, who's the mp for poplar and limehouse, who is the was the victim of coercive behaviour, who received no support and was also had the

whip removed for voting for the for against the two child. the two child limit. and from what i've read in the press , she i've read in the press, she hasn't received support. i mean, i don't think it is necessarily, but that would then feed into what rosie is saying essentially when she says that starmer has got what she would call a woman's problem . i'm saying that woman's problem. i'm saying that may or may not be the case, but i don't think that's because he doesn't share her particular views on, on trans and on on on genden views on, on trans and on on on gender. you could argue, as she doesin gender. you could argue, as she does in her as she does in her letter, that for example, the, the, the treatment of diane abbott by keir starmer and

by his core team, was disgraceful. she said that you're right, which it was. there are a number of these cases. he's also acted, in my view, disgracefully on a whole range of other things. so i don't think it's only on this. >> let's cut to the chase. should there be a by—election triggered? do you think so? >> usually made herself, in effect, an independent labour mp. so she said she's going to stay. very true to her core values and beliefs and champion labour policies. it's not like she's joined the conservatives or the liberal democrats like we've seen before. and in those scenarios, i think it's very different. in this case, i think it's more nuanced. so i wouldn't be in favour of a by—election and the cost and the upheaval that that would produce. >> do you think there should be a by—election, >> in general terms, i think when people cross the floor, there should be i'm that's quite a reasonable argument for why in this case, there there shouldn't. if i were going to have a series of democratic

reforms in britain that would be on the list, but pretty low down because there's a whole load of other things. so i think that sounds that sounds reasonable, although in general terms, i think if you cross the floor, you should, are you in that constituency? >> do you if you for vote someone and you and people will say, people say, well, say, some people will say, well, actually the actually i do vote for the party. will say, party. other people will say, well, vote the well, actually i do vote for the individual. voted for individual. but if you voted for someone labour someone that had the labour rosette decided rosette on and then decided to be do you be an independent, what do you think it all think to that? and is it all fair? should there be? because many people are saying actually it's very hypocritical to let there or to cannot argue for there or to cannot argue for there not to be a by—election in this because this case with rosie, because people approve what people kind of approve of what she's stands she's doing and what she stands for, simultaneously for, but then simultaneously be equally and equally banging the drum and demanding for. by demanding people push for. by elections when it's people essentially, that they don't like. >> i think the different scenarios, though, if somebody goes to a completely different political party they're political party and they're saying with their saying they're done with their original whereas original party forever, whereas rosie's in her rosie's actually said in her letter to letter that she hopes to get back labour party as soon back to the labour party as soon as positioning itself in as it, is positioning itself in as it, is positioning itself in a manner and that a different manner and that she's continue to she's going to continue to support causes and support labour causes and values. we've seen values. whereas when we've seen people floor people cross the floor completely, think that that's completely, i think that that's disgraceful that that does disgraceful and that that does undermine democracy. undermine our democracy. >> i think it should easier >> i think it should be easier to recall your and then that to recall your mp and then that solves people solves this problem. if people are don't like

are in canterbury, don't like the she's, that she's the fact that she's, that she's become an independent, then they can, through petitioning, they can, through petitioning, they can have that by—election if they want it. that's probably an easier way to an easier way to do it. >> liz got in touch. he says. michelle, in his view, rosie duffield was discriminated against and hounded out by her own for party simply stating facts wasn't beliefs. it was facts. things like your biological sex, is immutable and you cannot change it. lee would argue, as would i. that is absolutely a fact. why would anyone be discriminated against for that? there's lots of views on this. i mean, i'm particularly keen if you are in her seat, how do you feel? do you support that she's become independent or not? look, i want to talk to you about populism. many people would call it far right over in austria, the freedom party now got quite the result. i have to say . what do result. i have to say. what do you make to it? i'll see you in two.

honestly, ladies and gents, i think sometimes the most interesting conversations go on interesting conversations go on in the break. we just had this whole conversation about can you actually change your sex? i mean, i've got to say, i'll summarise my view. no you can't. i feel very strongly about that. and i'm sure many of you will have completely different views that you feel equally as strong about. that you feel equally as strong about . so anyway, look, michelle about. so anyway, look, michelle donelan, the former culture secretary and james schneider alongside me tonight , look, alongside me tonight, look, populism, many people will call it different things. but over in austria, we've now seen the freedom party. they have secured quite a historic victory, i have to say. many people, within seconds of hearing the words freedom party or whatever, they'll immediately kind of say , they'll immediately kind of say, this is all far, right. we hear this is all far, right. we hear this often. those terms kind of get bandied around often . where get bandied around often. where are you on this whole thing and

what it says about europe's direction as a whole ? direction as a whole? >> so we're seeing a movement across europe of people that are genuinely fed up, especially about immigration, both legal and illegal. we saw it here in the uk. we saw that rise in the percentage that reform got as well, because motivated , mainly well, because motivated, mainly because people are so exacerbated by the fact that they've heard politicians say a lot, but not do a lot on some of these key issues that they deeply care about, including immigration. and that's been intensified by the cost of living crisis. and we're not alone in that. we're seeing that happenin alone in that. we're seeing that happen in in austria and other countries, too . countries, too. >> so i don't call them populists because i'm a populist. i mean , i'm a left populist. i mean, i'm a left populist. i mean, i'm a left populist. they're they're right populists. but the freedom party has its roots in the in nazism, in, in its founders were former members of the nazi party. and it has a whole range of far right policies and far right rhetoric. now that doesn't mean

that everybody. >> so just in case anyone's not familiar what are these far right policies, for example , right policies, for example, >> so in terms of their , their >> so in terms of their, their rhetoric, for example, one of their main slogans that was on billboards is one line before it is a dog whistle, one line before it is a is something from the nazis . for example , the nazis. for example, >> but what does that mean? sorry i have no idea what you're talking about. >> it's slightly difficult to explain, but the you're telling me something that's on a billboard is so offensive that you can't even say it. no, no, no, that's not what i'm saying . no, that's not what i'm saying. i'm. i'm saying this particular this particular dog whistle, they have a slogan. and the previous line in the song is from comes from a nazi thing. so it's a dog whistle towards towards that. anyway, their background is in the far right now that doesn't mean that, everybody who is voting for them has decided that they're fully paid up . far rightists? of

paid up. far rightists? of course not. there are a whole range of reasons why people are voting for them, but i do think it is alarming and it will continue to happen, i think, and it is spreading across europe. >> what's so alarming about it in your view? >> well, i don't think having racists in government is a particularly good thing. so i think that's quite alarming. i think that's quite alarming. i think if you look at the far right parties that they would say they're not racist. but if you look at the far right parties that are on the rise, and if you look at the things that they have said, i find those not the kinds of things i'd like to have in the society i'm in. and then if you look at them in government. so, giorgia meloni for example, in italy, the sorts of policies that the far right as well, just so i understand . yeah. i mean, you understand. yeah. i mean, you could say hard, right? you could say far, right. i mean , she's say far, right. i mean, she's maybe slightly different in that she has accommodated herself more to the eu and to nato. so maybe you could say she's she's

a hard right. she's hard right. but it's in this it's in this bafic but it's in this it's in this basic penumbra. and we don't have to get that over the top on terminology. >> if you it's important because i think it's all got a bit daft because basically the commonality between so many of these parties is that so many people now are control, are concerned about uncontrolled immigration. >> so they are to the right. >> so they are to the right. >> but they are to the right. >> but they are to the right. >> there is a mainstream right wing party which is pretty right wing party which is pretty right wing in austria, and they are a party which is considered to be to its right on the political spectrum. that's why people say far right or hard right now. i don't think that that alone is having a semantic argument about whether they do or don't sit to the right of the conservative, the right of the conservative, the mainstream conservative party. is that useful? i mean, objectively , they are right, objectively, they are right, because i find this really interesting when you see, what's going on across europe describes michel, you will nearly always see the descriptions of far

right this and far right that, and far right this and far right that. >> and what people actually mean is that it's people who are primarily passionate about controlling their borders and having controlled migration policies. and i think this you're saying it's semantics far right? i don't think it is semantics. i think it's deliberate use of words to try to shame people into changing their thought process around things like migration. >> yeah. so in general, i agree with you. i think this particular party, if we look at its specific history and its origins, it is steeped in nazism and there's no way of disputing that. when you look at who set it up, it's, it's membership, some of its, its beliefs over the years. so that is a slightly different kettle of fish. but in general, i do agree with you. and i think one of the problems, that has arisen is the fact that we've tried to stifle debate. that was something that i warned about when i was in the department for education and tried to stand up for free speech, because unless we have a proper, full and frank political discourse, you will see problems

like we've been seeing for the for the last year and the problems that the riots, etc, because people feel that they can't just articulate their opinions on these topics. >> hold on. do you think that the reason that people attacked mosques was because they weren't able to? >> no, i didn't say that, did i? so what i was saying is that if we are stifling free speech and debate , you will just you're debate, you will just you're just containing a problem and it's going to bubble and bubble and bubble until it explodes, whereas we actually need to get to the root causes of some of these issues and actually discuss them and have a grown up and constructive debate about them. and to michelle's point, you know, issues like immigration aren't just concerns of people on the right. in fact, i know many people on the left that are concerned about these topics too. >> so i don't think that saying that the front national in france, because it is to the right of the mainstream right wing, the traditional right wing parties, there is far right or the same in italy or whatever is in any way stifling freedom of

speech about migration and refugee policy. that's why i find it. i mean, i find it a bit bizarre. >> do you not feel let me ask you, do you not feel that people throw around and i'm not just talking about in european elections, i'm talking about much more broadly. do you not think that people deliberately and categorically, misuse or deliberately misuse the phrase far right and they do? so, i would argue, to try and shame people into, almost silence and criticism to stop the criticism of the appalling migration policies that we have now. do you not think that that goes on? >> so it's very hard to say. if you present the question like that. it's very hard to say no because you said people. so you can point to one instance where it does seem like that's the case. >> but in one instance. >> but in one instance. >> but in general, but but in general , in >> but in general, but but in general, in general >> but in general, but but in general , in general terms, the general, in general terms, the hard right and the far right are on the rise, not just in europe but around the world. and this

is a global phenomenon which you can see in the philippines and in india and brazil and the us and europe, and yes, also here in also here in britain. >> what's causing it then? >> what's causing it then? >> i think in part it is caused by the fallout from the 2008 financial crisis and the failure of the what was the elite centre, the centre left and the centre, the centre left and the centre right to put forward something coherent to the to the pubucin something coherent to the to the public in many countries. and that's why that's in part why you see this thing rising. it also learns from each other. and i think labelling something which is a growing phenomenon, which is a growing phenomenon, which is a growing phenomenon, which is either replacing what was the mainstream right or it is cannibalising it and it is then taking it over, as we've seen, for example, with trump and the republicans in the us calling that phenomenon a term isn't to silence the debate about what it's about, but it isn't far right to be concerned

about the levels of immigration both illegal and legal. >> it'sjust both illegal and legal. >> it's just common sense . >> it's just common sense. >> it's just common sense. >> well, i don't think it is necessarily just common sense, but i wouldn't say it's necessarily far right either. >> that's that is what's happening. >> no, no, no, that's that's an illusion that michelle made. i would not say, for example , that would not say, for example, that someone who wants to have a lower level of migration in britain is far right because they want to have a lower level of migration in britain. i would say someone is far right if they carry for water racist street violence, for example, if they do not carry water for racist street violence. but who does that? many people in british pubuc that? many people in british public life do they they? well, let's take the first ten. >> tell me one person, then in british public life that basically supports racist street violence. >> so i think that in the in the first, let's say, ten days of the racist violence that we saw this summer , what racist this summer, what racist violence there was attacks on mosques , there were there were mosques, there were there were pulling people out of their cars .

pulling people out of their cars. we're talking about the same thing, right? >> oh yeah , we are. we're >> oh yeah, we are. we're talking about the white people that were trying to pull people out of the cars for being brown. and then we're talking about the brown people that was trying to pull people out of their cars for being white. i was talking about that. yeah, >> that's not what happened. but we are. >> it is categorically. it is, by the way. and also just so we know that the example that you give, it was a horrendous example , because one of those example, because one of those examples occurred in hull, where you had people trying to attack what they call foreigners in cars because they had brown skin. one of those people is my home town, was actually a refugee himself from morocco. just so we're clear. >> so one of which people the attacker. >> yeah, one of the attackers that was trying to attack foreigners was himself a refugee, apparently. >> but that doesn't change the fact that people were on a racist basis attacking people in their cars , or who are the their cars, or who are the mosques were advocating it, or that mosques were , i said, carry that mosques were, i said, carry water. for i think we saw a lot

in in those ten days of people saying, oh, no, there are questions to ask about what really happened in southport, echoing the language that was being used to mobilise for these. these riots, these racist attacks. we saw lots of that . attacks. we saw lots of that. >> well, there you go. what do you think to that, one of my viewers jaw—jaw just got in touch. he says he is in rosie duffield's constituency, and he doesn't think there should be a by—election. he absolutely continues to support her. look, i'm sure these conversations will carry on. i've appreciated the debate this evening. i know many of my viewers have too. but look , time flies, doesn't it, look, time flies, doesn't it, thank you very much , michelle, thank you very much, michelle, for your company, james, for yours too. and thank you to each and every one of you at home. but don't go anywhere, though, because up next, it's gbn tonight. but that's all from me. and i will see you tomorrow. so have yourselves a fantastic evening tonight . evening tonight. >> a brighter outlook with boxt

solar sponsors of weather on gb. >> news . >> news. >> news. >> hi there, welcome to the latest update from the met office for gb news. the next 24 hours stays damp and blustery in the east, but it does dry up elsewhere. brighter skies coming along in the west later on tuesday. finally, a drier period to give us all a respite from all the rain. but it is going to take its time as this low slowly clears eastwards. it's still going to bring further rain to northern england into parts of the midlands overnight. east anglia, as well as north wales. now that rain does turn more showery in the west, the north and the northwest, seeing plenty of clear spells overnight under those clear skies , temperatures those clear skies, temperatures falling into the single figures. but it's blustery elsewhere as we start off tuesday, and there's certainly more rain to come across parts of east midlands into east anglia and down that north sea coast . now down that north sea coast. now we've got a few showers across

aberdeenshire into the great glen, but otherwise plenty of bright weather across much of northern and western scotland. northern ireland a lovely start to the day. blue skies here, just 1 or 2 mist patches. likewise for northwest england, but for wales and the southwest areas of cloud floating about and a few showers. nevertheless, it's the eastern side of england where we continue to see a strong wind, gales for some exposed north sea coasts and further spells of rain. the rain tending to become lighter through the day. but it's going to stay feeling miserable, i think under that wet weather and with a lot of low cloud, along with a lot of low cloud, along with the brisk breeze , with the brisk breeze, temperatures of 12 or 13 celsius in the east, whilst further west, where we do get some sunshine, 15 to 17 degrees. now into wednesday there'll be yet more showers coming in on a north easterly breeze across parts of east anglia into the southeast, but elsewhere much brighter skies . scotland, brighter skies. scotland, northern ireland, northern england, west wales and the southwest seeing plenty of sunshine. those sunny skies transfer east through thursday

and into friday, so a few days at least of drier and brighter weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

well. >> a very good evening to you. i'm martin daubney and this is gb tonight. now party conference season is almost over with just the tories left to finish up before parliament returns next week. but one thing has been made very, very clear. the tories are a major need of reform. nigel farage is kind of reform because tory heavyweights are warning that the conservative party might disappear if they don't move to the right. but in a moment i'll be asking a tory why they think reform will even want them . next reform will even want them. next up, today marks the end of an

era. sad moments britain has closed its last surviving coal fired power station , in a move fired power station, in a move that coincides also with the closure of the last blast furnace at one of the world's biggest steelworks in wales. thousands will wake up tomorrow without jobs in a move that is bound to have devastating effects on its local communities. i'll be speaking to lee anderson about this in a bit. of course, a former coal miner and record numbers of asylum seekers claiming to be children have been caught out after they lied to gain extra protection from being sent home. now, two years ago, an aspiring royal marine was fatally stabbed by an illegal immigrant pretending to be 14 years old when actually he was 19 and a double killer. when will the government learn its lesson ? government learn its lesson? well, it's the show. we've got a cracker ahead. all of that to