was that the right move for us.7 and what do you think the consequences of some of this stuff will be for us here in this country? also, given that there's so much talk now about there's so much talk now about the potential for another war. how self—reliant are we when it comes to things like energy? do you think we've got our strategy right here in this country or not? also today, the tory leadership contenders gave their back to back speeches. did you

see them? who or what caught your. see them? who or what caught your . eye? see them? who or what caught your. eye? all of that and lots more. but first, the 6:00 news headunes. headlines. >> good evening. the top stories from the gb newsroom at 6:00. the prime minister has confirmed there will be no return to freedom of movement in any reset of relations between the uk and the european union. sir keir starmer has been speaking at a press conference in brussels, where he is meeting european union chiefs with a promise to put the brexit years behind us and form a closer relationship with the bloc. it's his first visit to brussels as prime minister >> now, of course, there will be issues which are difficult to resolve and on areas on which we will stand firm, there will be no return to freedom of

movement, no return to the customs union, no return to the single market. but we will find constructive ways to work together and deliver for the british people . british people. >> meanwhile, sir keir starmer has paid back more than £6,000 worth of gifts and hospitality received since he became prime minister. downing street has confirmed he's in. he is covering the costs of six taylor swift tickets for to the races and a clothing rental agreement with a high end designer favoured by his wife, lady victoria starmer. it comes after sir keir and other cabinet members who vowed to clean up british politics, faced weeks of criticism for accepting tens of thousands of pounds worth of freebies from wealthy donors . freebies from wealthy donors. police in denmark have confirmed that an explosion outside the israeli embassy in copenhagen was caused by hand grenades. there were no injuries reported, andifs there were no injuries reported, and it's too early to say how big the blast had been, according to a police spokesperson. police in sweden, meanwhile, have also confirmed that loud bangs outside the

israeli embassy in stockholm last night were the result of gunfire aimed at the building. meanwhile, there are fears the middle east is on the cusp of an all out war after israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu swore that iran will pay for the large scale missile attack it launched on israel yesterday evening. and some breaking news from kensington palace. the prince and princess of wales have met an aspiring teenage photographer with a rare and aggressive form of cancer. after inviting her to take pictures at william's windsor castle investiture ceremony. the princess used pictures here and recently completed her own chemotherapy treatments. was pictured hugging i6 chemotherapy treatments. was pictured hugging 16 year old liz, from harrogate, in a personal message on social media. william and catherine said a pleasure to meet with liz at windsor today. a talented young photographer whose creativity and strength has inspired us both . thank you for inspired us both. thank you for sharing your photos and story with us. well, those are the

latest gb news headlines for now. i'm cameron walker. more in an hour . now. i'm cameron walker. more in an hour. thank you very much for that, cameron. >> that was nice, wasn't it? those pictures at the end. there so much doom and gloom in our society at the moment. so it's nice to see people getting on the right track when it comes to their health as well. so look, i am michelle dewberry. this is dewbs& co. i'm with you until 7:00 tonight alongside me. i've got my panel, alex dean, the conservative commentator, and aaron bastani, the co—founder of novara media. good evening gentlemen . good evening to you. gentlemen. good evening to you. welcome. tonight, as are each and every single one of you at home to what is on your mind tonight. you can get in touch with me all the usual ways you can email me gb views @gbnews. com you can tweet or me or of course you can go to the website gbnews.com/yoursay. but as i said , you're very welcome said, you're very welcome tonight. there is lots i want to discuss with you. but of course,

last night we did a whole hour on this story. the situation, the escalating situation in the middle east. let me cross live to our home security editor, mark white. mark good evening to you. bringing the viewers and listeners up to speed, if you will, with the developments over the course of today . the course of today. >> well, today we really await what the israeli response will to be that intense ballistic missile attack on israeli centres of population and, of course, air bases that , course, air bases that, according to the israeli military, were targeted and damaged in these ballistic missile strikes yesterday. all the indications, the mood music that we're getting from the israeli military and indeed their political leaders, is that it will be a significant response and the concern about thatis response and the concern about that is the potential then , for that is the potential then, for iran to feel that it needs to

respond again in kind. and then of course, you are potentially on a downward spiral into a very, very dangerous situation. now, the uk defence secretary, john healey , has been in cyprus john healey, has been in cyprus today. he's been visiting those british forces who are in the region, both to help out with the operations that took place last night. a confirmation that two raf typhoons and an air to air refuelling tanker were involved in that operation. they didn't fire shots, we're told, but they were there in a deterrent role , and he has also deterrent role, and he has also been speaking to some of the 700 additional personnel who are in cyprus preparing for the potential for quite a significant civilian evacuation and by civilians. we're talking about british nationals and dual

nationals. the government has been urging them to leave lebanon for a few days now. there are still thousands of british nationals in lebanon at the moment , british nationals in lebanon at the moment, and john healey has repeated his call for them to evacuate. he's also condemned iran for that missile attack. this is what he said earlier. >> well, i said to israeli minister galant this morning, we totally condemn the iranian missile attack . we continue to missile attack. we continue to support steadfast their right to security . but our biggest security. but our biggest concern is to avoid this conflict spiralling out of control and into a wider regional war. and our view remains. and i made this argument to him that the best route to scale back the fighting is for a ceasefire in lebanon and to back a un plan for a

negotiated settlement . negotiated settlement. >> well, the british of course, in that region have been prepared both last night and again. but back in april, when there was another missile and drone attack from iran to intervene to stop those munitions reaching israeli territory. but what the real concern is, is that the potential for a very significant escalation and a full on war between israel and iran might mean that western forces, those allies of israel, could get further sucked to in that conflict . conflict. >> mark white. thank you very much for that. over to my panel, alex deane, your take on what's been going on. >> well, israel has been attacked by the regime's worst actor. and in a way that's completely unjustifiable, 200

rockets fired into israel's territory. the supposed reason is that israel killed a terrorist, the head of a terrorist, the head of a terrorist organisation, proscribed terrorist organisation in this country. they killed him in beirut, that is, in lebanon, a different country . and iran uses that as a country. and iran uses that as a pretext to attack israel with hundreds of missiles. israel is absolutely entitled to defend itself. we should do all we to can help them. and the only. and i'm very proud that we did our bit last night to try and stop those missiles striking israeli civilians. the only black mark against us is that our prime minister and his foreign secretary, david lammy , made secretary, david lammy, made a pretty meaningless. sanction on some arms exports to israel, which i think was a gesture at the time they thought was cost free. instead, it was the worst of all worlds. it demonstrated we weren't full throatedly in support of our ally in the region, the democracy in the region, the democracy in the region, and it had no actual effect. so i hope we're going to undo some of that and do all we can to help israel in these circumstances. >> aaron bastani well, what's there to say, really?

>> i suppose, for people watching and listening out there, if there is a regional war? and by the way, i think there is a regional war. yesterday morning you had israel's invasion of lebanon. they're saying it's a very limited special military operation. sounds awfully reminiscent of somebody else who did something similar several years ago, they not just did that. they also engaged in airstrikes in yemen, on the west coast of yemen, in hodeidah and ras al sin, and also in damascus. so you've got two airstrikes and two separate countries. an invasion of another, another country. then it claiming to get involved on the side of lebanon and a an attack last week which killed hassan nasrallah. that sounds to me like a regional war or at least a region at war. now, why does this matter to brits? two things the war on terror led to the displacement of 38 million people. i think if you did have a war between israel and iran, two major regional powers, although i should say israel is, i think, eminently more powerful than iran, i think it has the capability to vaporise the capitals of all of its rivals .

capitals of all of its rivals. frankly, that's not often said in the british media, but it's true. if there was a war between these two powers, you would see, i think far more than 38 million people displaced. many would come to europe. you would also see a massive increase in energy prices, a price shock of a kind that you saw in the early 1970s. and look, and maybe some people have no problem with that. but i think it's really important that politicians and the media say to the public, this is what we're doing, here's why we're doing it. worst case scenario, this is what's happened. and i don't think i don't think people are being clear about that. >> i don't don't long for war. i don't want things to happen . don't want things to happen. don't think that for a moment. by don't think that for a moment. by the way, let's be clear about what's been happening and why it's important. what happened yesterday is so important. iran's attack direct attack on israel is a game changer. israel is utterly justified, in my view. and i think on any interpretation of international law to defend itself against what hezbollah was doing because hezbollah was attacking israel daily since october the 7th, every single day, pretty much hezbollah have been firing rockets into israel. so the un

charter is clear. you're entitled to take acts of self—defence against those who are attacking you. maybe slightly blurred by the fact that lebanon, an independent country, isn't officially represented by hezbollah . but represented by hezbollah. but hezbollah has been active there for many years. the point is that both hamas and hezbollah are proxies for iran, but not iranian itself. iran's proxies have been attacked by israel, but not iran . not one shot has but not iran. not one shot has been they haven't been attacking iran. iran firing hundreds of missiles into israel is a massive act of provocation and is a game changer. and is their fault. >> do you think aaron bastani, that it was right that the uk played a role, albeit perhaps a small one? last night? >> well, i think from what we know it seems quite minor. there was a similar engagement in april, and i'm sure some of your listeners and viewers will remember that. and the raf, the brits, the french, the jordanians were heavily involved in stopping projectiles getting into israeli airspace. we can

have a conversation about whether or not the raf should be doing that. my view is we have enough problems in this country and this fans out to the whole debate around development aid, foreign policy. it's not just this one part of the world. we have so many problems in this country with 50,000 nurses short. we have expensive energy. we don't make fresh steel loads of our universities are set to go to the wall. we've got rampant pensioner and child poverty . we don't build enough poverty. we don't build enough houses. i don't understand why we need to get involved in this manner. now. >> i can answer that. >> i can answer that. >> sure, sure, sure. >> _ >> sure, sure, sure. >> civilisation is under threat right? people will always be able to point to problems in the united kingdom to say, these are reasons for why we shouldn't do something. in the end, israel is being attacked by a theocratic bunch of terrorists in the shape of iran and the irgc, the iranian revolutionary guard corps, another organisation that should be described as terrorist organisation , by the way, is organisation, by the way, is about as bad a bunch of people as you're likely to find on god's earth. these people attacking israel, if they win, if they get their way, you think

they just fold their tents? do you think they say, oh well, job done. now we've got rid of the invaders in israel. now we'll live in peace and harmony. no no, israel is fighting our fight. the reason that we have proscribed these organisations as terrorists is that they want us all dead. one of the last, one of the last things that nasrallah question, one of the last things that nasrallah said. >> let me ask a question. >> let me ask a question. >> one other thing. one of the last things that nasrallah said before he was assassinated was that there was no limit to the amount of violence that should be visited upon gay people, because they had chosen to be 93v- because they had chosen to be gay. that was how bad they were in his view, they're not. just that doesn't mean within israel's borders. he means everywhere, meant everywhere. >> well, there's two things here. so i think it suits both israel and iran to falsely represent the threat that iran poses to israel. israel is infinitely more powerful than iran. it has nuclear weapons. it has f—35s. it has the world's arguably most impressive secret services. it has a world class domestic drone industry. it has the support of the world's leading superpower. it has everything. and like i said earlier , if it wanted to, it

earlier, if it wanted to, it could vaporise every single arab capital and tehran besides if it wanted to. what we saw last night is effectively the maximum push that iran is capable of. as alex said, its proxies have effectively been degraded . that effectively been degraded. that strategy is now kind of somewhat on the back burner. >> but they're still talking tough, though, aren't they? >> they're not talk tough. but the point is there's two there's two sides to this debate. on the one hand, is it possible to get rid of the regime in tehran? no, iran is huge. it's the size of germany, france and italy combined. they have a certain military industrial complex, technological base which allows them to do certain things that other countries cannot do. but at the same time, can they destroy israel? israel has nuclear weapons. iran does not. that's that's where the debate. well, that's where the debate ends. and what i'd say is, you say it's a fight for civilisation. not many people in this country know, but there was the king david hotel bombing in the king david hotel bombing in the 1940s. dozens of british service personnel were killed by zionist terrorists. irgun? was that a fight for civilisation? so there are fanatics on all sides. i'm half iranian, i will

say. i will say this. i'm half iranian. the islamic republic of iranian. the islamic republic of iran has been a disaster for iranians for the last 45 years. that does not mean israel has a right to invade lebanon, to bomb syria, to bomb yemen. we need calm, people capable of bringing the temperature down. benjamin netanyahu is the precise opposite of that. >> well , there's a lot more to >> well, there's a lot more to discuss on this issue. we will continue this conversation in a couple of minutes, and i'll bnng couple of minutes, and i'll bring you into it as well. don't go anywhere. i'll see you

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, we've got alex, dean and aaron bastani. look, we're continuing this conversation about the goings on in israel. we discussed this at length last night as well, you know, and many people are saying, hang on a minute, michelle, why are you focusing

on the middle east? what about the problems here in the uk ? the problems here in the uk? well, i've got to tell you, if everything kicks off and continues escalating in the middle east, it will affect each and every single one of us. we touched on some of the reasons before the break. you've got inflation, oil prices, your fuel. therefore you've got the situation of increased terror attack risk here in the uk, potentially refugees, an increase in those numbers , the increase in those numbers, the effect of what will happen there will be immense here in this country. we're just talking as well, alex, we're just having a debate about kind of next steps and so on. and so forth. continue your thoughts. >> i think we should support israel in every way we can. we make first class weaponry in this country to the extent to which any of it is useful to the israelis. we should export it to them forthwith. any kind of gesture politics that starmer and lammy self—indulgently went through went for last month, trying to put sector bans or banning some products going to israel should be revoked. we should ask them what else they

need and what else. how else we can help. i'm delighted that the raf helped in shooting down those. it's the size of these ballistic missiles. are hard to for some people to comprehend. it's like the length of the studio e some of the things they were lobbing into israel. so that's why you need sometimes jets to shoot them down. we should carry on doing that and helping them along with our allies like the united states and jordan and so forth. basically, everything we can do to help israel against these murderous terrorists, we should do do you think there should be any consultation, aaron, of the british people, when it comes to getting involved as a country, in potential conflicts, do you think the approach is kind of right at the moment? >> well, i think i think the british public, broadly speaking, doesn't really mind if our armed forces are getting involved in minor conflicts where they're not really in massively in harm's way. we're not looking at dozens or hundreds of casualties, and it's relatively quick and the objectives are very, very clear. the problem is when none of that is the case, as we see in, for instance, afghanistan, the objectives weren't clear. we lose hundreds of service

personnel. we spend a great deal of taxpayer money. and i suppose if you if you were to say, look, if you if you were to say, look, if that's the end game for the conflict in ukraine, people have a very different view than if it's just selling or giving arms to kyiv. so it's a really difficult one. and i think my, my baseline is this as i've said, we should not be spending money on war, but as a rule, there will be exceptions, of course, but we should not be selling, spending money on war overseas when we have so many problems. we have so many problems. we have so many problems in this country. i mean, i've said it before, and it's something actually, when i when i say it, i often get people from the right of politics saying, i agree, we need to be thinking like a developing country. how do we get cheap energy? how do we start making cheap steel? how do we start creating cheap housing? this is the bread and butter that our political class should now be focusing on. it's really important. that's beyond left and right. yeah, but but i think i think too much of our political class and let's zone out from this one particular

conflict. too much of our political class likes to pretend it's still the 1920s. we still have an empire that spans one quarter of the earth's surface, and they get to feel important. and i think that's a broader a broader point, i'd want to say, beyond just russia, ukraine or palestine, israel, iran, for the sake of argument, one can concede all the points aaron makes about need at home and still seek to assist our friends abroad, rather than leaving them in the lurch in their hour of need. >> but the last point it's not the days of empire. it's just bizarre because the desire to talk britain down, it's just we can't do anything in the world is richly demonstrated as false by the fact that we do export some weaponry to israel, and we do some things to help them under these bombardment. >> already, barely any 99% of israeli military imports come from germany. in the us. >> yeah, and we can well up that. let's let's try and increase that percentage. let's help them as best we can. well, they make great weapons. >> i mean, the thing is, israel makes great drones actually, you know, they don't need us. >> you want us to be providing more weaponry. >> i would love us to provide both more weaponry and support material to israel to and fly more sorties for as long as it

takes to ensure that their skies are safe from terrorist missiles being lobbed into them. and what i can't understand is why israel and israel alone is expected for some sort of realpolitik lessons by people sitting around tables like this one to just put up with it. hundreds of missiles fired at a country. and there are some pundits who genuinely say, well, you know, in the interests of regional stability, they shouldn't respond. what at all to 200 ballistic missiles fired into their country. what other countries should behave like that? then, if that's the case? >> no, it's a really fair point andifs >> no, it's a really fair point and it's really important to say what happened in april and what's happened in the last 24 hours is unprecedented in contemporary israeli history. actually, you could go back to 73. you can go back to 67. the idea that that kind of force would be projected against israel has no precedent. and like you say, alex is absolutely right. if ballistic missiles rained down on washington or london, there would be some kind of response. but the broader context is a wider conflict encompassing multiple countries. and of course, israel has a right to defend itself. but lebanon also has a sovereign territory, which doesn't merit being invaded. a thousand lebanese have died in the last ten days. a thousand people,

around a quarter of them women and children. that's that's a huge problem. and i think countries like the uk can actually be part of the solution. that's my view. i know for a long time, people that say the current leadership team as it is. >> keir starmer, david lammy , is >> keir starmer, david lammy, is this the a team? >> well i would i would i would struggle to think that they could do their own weekly grocery shopping. but in the abstract, i think that we have some of the best diplomats in the world. yes, we could be part of the solution. >> i accept that point about the quality of our diplomats. that's something we do have. but i mean, keir starmer, the channel showed on the show before yours, an interview that keir starmer was giving in brussels, and he talked a little about israel and our support for them. and then from the gathered international media, including outlets that are really very friendly to this new labour regime, the questions he got were all about his personal grift and the money that he'd accepted from people and the venality of taking tickets and clothing and spectacles and so forth. this was just being paraded. this is a new government, right? and one of the first summits he does

internationally. the questions he gets from the international media class, rightly, is about him taking more than 100 k's worth of stuff from people. i mean, why why does somebody give him give your wife dresses? like, why do they do that? >> see that is the million dollar question isn't it. and i'm sure well, actually, i was just about to say, i'm sure they must kick themselves for taking those donations, but i'm assuming that maybe they don't, because you do hear them day after day trying to justify that. actually, it was all okay. but look, of course the tory conference today as well, the leadership contenders giving speech after speech after speech. did listen? did like what you hear or not. let's

break. hi there. michelle dewberry alex, dean and aaron bastani with you until 7:00 tonight. as we went into that break, we were just talking about keir starmer and particularly , still the and particularly, still the conversation that surrounds his clothes, his wife's clothes and so on. and so forth. we rightly

pointed out, alex before the break, that now, keir starmer has given back, if you would like £6,000 worth of gifts. yes, tickets , hospitality tickets, tickets, hospitality tickets, some rented clothes or something for his wife and also now, the donon for his wife and also now, the donor, he's under some form of investigation as well. what do you make to some of this stuff? >> of course you want to have an investigation because then you can say this is happening into this person who's tertiary to our core team, and it will take some time. and it would be wrong to prejudice or prejudge the result of that investigation. so let's wait until it's finished before we say anything else about it. it gives them a holding position, which by god, they need, given how badly they've made a mess of things recently. but i must say, even though you know from first principles, i think the finality or the grubbiness on show of taking this money and people paying taking this money and people paying for your suits and glasses and so forth is ridiculous once you get there. i think they've made a real mistake by yielding any ground at all. i wouldn't have returned at all. i wouldn't have returned a penny in keir starmer's shoes, because once you start returning

six grand, well, why isn't it 15? or why isn't it 20? and what about the other 100 grand that you accepted and you wind up basically admitting you get none of the credit for saying that you were in the wrong. you get none of the credit for doing the right thing because he didn't. but then you also get you concede that you've done something bad, and once you go down that road, the questions will never finish. it just shows how incompetent they are. >> aaron, i couldn't agree more. and it's really important to say that since 2019, keir starmer has accepted more goodies and gifts than any other mp, so people might be watching this and thinking, you're being really harsh. it's politically targeted. he's the pm, he's going to get the most attention. you'd think that's true, but no, he took more goodies than the other 649 mps. >> why? because this is a bit because it's really weird. >> why does a man pay for another man's? >> but this is a bit i don't understand. if you're on the bones of your bottom and you literally can't afford to clothe yourself or your family, and a very rich man comes along and says, you know, let me buy your spectacles and your pants. i mean, your first question would be the first sane minded question would be, well, what's in it for you? what do you want?

but this is not a man on the bones of his bottom. >> i suppose what he thinks is why not? i can, i can take it. it's. you know, i'm in office. it's. you know, i'm in office. it's one of the benefits of doing it. why why shouldn't i? but i tell you how badly they've got this wrong. whatever you think of the issue itself, park that for a moment. for a week, more than a week. the story was keir starmer accepts 16 grand's worth of clothing, and the team around him knew there was another 16 grand that sat as the donation for the office, which was in fact also clothing. so the real figure was double and if you were competent to the to any degree, you would get out in front of the story and say, well, just to be clear, it's the real figure is £32,000. they waited for a week for the other shoe, no pun intended. a lot of shoes. the other shoes to drop and it was £32,000. that's just bafic and it was £32,000. that's just basic incompetence. >> but. but is it incompetence or is it deliberate deception ? or is it deliberate deception? is it because this is what to me, this is what i don't understand. i mean , to me this understand. i mean, to me this is so nonsensical, so absurd. >> do you think that then i'm starting to think, no, it just won't happen. no one will

realise. >> i'm starting to think because it can't be sheer incompetence , surely. >> i mean, normally, surely, normally in politics, at the point, at which you think no, but surely nobody can be that stupid. they can be. and that's not a party political point ehhen not a party political point either. by the way, the labour party has no monopoly on this. i'm just saying when normally when you think to yourself, surely there's got to be a more complex explanation. there isn't. >> but then everyone has come out. keir starmer's top team have come out and all kind of they've batted for him. they've defended this, no, no nothing to see here and so on and so forth. so i'm quite surprised that some prominent people in that team haven't come out and been a little bit more , actually, yeah. little bit more, actually, yeah. it's not great. it's not great. i'm astonished by the amount of defending that's been going on. >> well, there's a bunker mentality, isn't there? i mean, that's what it seems to indicate for me, is that they're completely detached from wider pubuc completely detached from wider public sentiment, and also this is a really important point. i mean, alex is right that the lack of professionalism and the response really is jaw dropping for so long. you could disagree with starmer, you could disagree with starmer, you could disagree

with the policies, but his office looked incredibly competent and professional. and it's been the opposite of that since they've taken office for the last three months. and that is the $64 million question for me. it has to boil down to entitlement. they think they're entitled to these things, that they deserve these things, and also that keir starmer himself is so virtuous because he is virtuous regardless of what he does or the choices he makes. you can't criticise him for his choices because they're keir starmer's choices and therefore they're virtuous choices. >> i'll just give you one other reason why this matters for the government going forward . in the government going forward. in the worst days of the johnson and sunak administrations, you'd have the government under attack for something it would send out its ministers, they would defend the line, then government would concede what was being said and you'd hang out. your people for no benefit. and they felt embarrassed. right. that was in the worst days of 14 years of tory government. starmer is having this already. he's sending his ministers out to defend him and his venality and his wife taking stuff. and then they concede by saying, okay, i did something wrong. here's some money back. they are conceding that they were in the wrong. now

let's imagine the next time you're asked to defend the line. as a labour minister, are you going to want to are you going to loan your full throated support to keir starmer, knowing that downing street may reverse the position by the afternoon and make your talking points that you didn't want to give in the first place an absurdity. that's one of the reasons it matters so much in government. when you perform this kind of u—turn, which starmer has done when he given back money, there's no end to the challenge. but also you you're undermining all of the people that you made stand up for you. >> well, yeah. because often people have said, i know some of you guys at home have got in touch and you've said, michel, is all of this stuff going on in the world? why is the media focusing so much on spectacles, pants , dresses or whatever? the pants, dresses or whatever? the challenge that you've got when you set the expectation, when you set the expectation, when you set the bar, the standards with your opponents? and don't forget everyone with partygate and all the rest of it, the obsession that everyone seems to have to get to the nuts and bolts of everything , wallpaper, bolts of everything, wallpaper, you name it. this is the kind of landscape. now this is the level. if you make that bet, unfortunately, you do have to lay in it. but look, let's talk

about leadership then, shall we? because the four final candidates in the tory race, they made some of their pitches. and i'm going to look at some of the goings on. but kemi badenoch, one of the things that she said about wealth made me kind of sit up and listen. let's just take a listen to what she was saying. >> wealth is not a dirty word. it supports jobs and families. it supports jobs and families. it pays for our schools and our health service. we should defend it and encourage it. >> yeah, i was watching that. i was going, you go on, girl. yes. was you alex dean? >> she's absolutely right. and the extent to which we've got into this weird conversation in this country suggesting that wealthy people are bad, you can now take a look at the way that the treasury's si king, i think going to partially or wholly reverse its attack on so—called non—doms, because they realise how much money it's going to cost them. you're not going to benefit from driving people out of this country. you'll cost money. you want people to be

wealthy. you want people to aspire to do more. you want people to earn significantly. and this is because they then pay and this is because they then pay their taxes and they spend their money in your society and society becomes richer. this is something peter mandelson used to understand when he was in government. he would say he couldn't care less about people becoming filthy rich as long as they paid their tax. well, as long as you, you would hope this labour party thinks it's going to make sure that people pay their fair share of tax. it should never resent the wealthy. instead, they go around unless the wealthy are donating dresses and spectacles and suits to them, the labour party go around all the time suggesting that the wealthy are bad. well, you can always level down. you can, you know, reduce relative poverty by lopping off some of the percentage of the most wealthy people you have in your country who wound up going and living somewhere else. but it's generally a bad idea because those are the entrepreneurs, the investors, the people who spend money and create jobs. >> but you're in the camp. correct me if i'm wrong. arabistan where you would talk about wealth and think that actually, when it comes to capital gains, capital gains should be taxed as income. >> i don't think income. but look, if you i think dividend tax in this country right now so

you get a dividend. it's about 39%. i don't see why capital gains tax is so much lower than dividends. you might want to tax dividends. you might want to tax dividends less. you might want to increase capital gains. i think a slight bumping up in cgt makes sense. but i'm going to i'm going to return to somebody that maybe some of your audience hasn't heard of before. deng xiaoping, who was a member of the chinese politburo, he said, poverty is not socialism. getting rich is glorious. so there is a left wing tradition beyond just peter mandelson of saying that actually people becoming wealthier and like you say, alex, they pay more taxes that can contribute to the body politic becoming wealthier to that that tradition exists. what it would say is the problem is tax. if you're getting rich and not paying the tax, that's when people get really upset. and i think that is the direction of the conversation in the last. >> but it's the level of taxation. this is where there's so much disagreement, isn't there? it's the level of taxation, not just tax avoidance and tax evasion. >> i mean, there is some tax evasion. >> there's also lots of tax avoidance, which a lot of people indulge in, by the way, by way of isas. >> and there's different kinds of tax. >> no, no that's that's entirely

lawful tax. tax evasion. wrong tax efficiency sensible. most of us practice it. and this is what's being taken. the line being taken here by aaron is far more sensible than the person who normally sits in the left wing chair on dewbs& co who says we should all pay higher tax. and then you say to that person, well, go ahead, you feel free to cut a check to hmrc. they'll cashit cut a check to hmrc. they'll cash it and they stumble. some weasel words out about why they didn't mean themselves. they meant more generally in society that position is a reasonable one. maybe we see slightly the wrong level, or maybe we should have a different tax on on dividends and so forth. i'm up for that discussion. i'm broadly speaking, in favour of lower taxes at all points everywhere. i think it i think it produces much more activity in economic growth to have lower taxes. but at least you're honest and reasonable about your position. in a way, i think is fair. the difference in is that starmer and co have come into government with such a negative view of the world. they think everything is utterly gloomy and utterly terrible. the idea that the uk was a great place for an investor, even if they marginally improved the investment environment, is not one i think currently would would hold water internationally. no, they spent so much time saying how bad

things are all the time, but people will be watching this some people you perhaps will have been to the labour conference a few days ago, and you would push back against alex saying, oh, they're all depressed and gloomy and all the rest of it. >> and many people would argue the energy on display at the labour conference, the optimism, because we've had chats about this, many of you think that actually now that labour party are in power, that we are apparently looking up and progressing positively. aaron bastani well, that was an amazing story out yesterday. >> the telegraph covered at the times. i think the guardian too, and they were saying that business sentiment has taken a massive hit . business confidence massive hit. business confidence has taken a massive hit. now the telegraph of course not very favourable to labour generally was saying that's because of labour's policies, but actually increasing tax and whatnot . but increasing tax and whatnot. but if you drill down into what happened with business confidence , it went up in july confidence, it went up in july and august. and this is according to a bunch of measures, not just lloyd's institute of directors. it went up.change institute of directors. it went up. change of government okay. let's see. try something new. and it's gone down in the last

month. >> oh this it has cratered in the last month . the last month. >> partly because i'm being i'm just trying to be honest here. you can't have the prime minister saying we have all these problems. everything's awful, everything's garbage. and by the way, we're not going to change it very much. and all i'm offering in the short to medium term is more misery. why would you invest in that country? why would you? there you go. >> why indeed? and i can tell you what, you're an unforgiving bunch, i'm looking at your social media now about this £6,000 cathy says michelle, mud sticks. the £6,000 basically is irrelevant. elizabeth says . all irrelevant. elizabeth says. all too little, too late. when it comes to returning things, the damage has been done, do you have a bit more of a sympathetic view towards keir starmer or panniers? if you have, get in touch and tell me. but look, i will look a little bit at the tory leader speeches and what

this sunday, join me, camilla tominey for an exclusive

interview with one of the most controversial, influential and unique political figures of our time. borisjohnson unique political figures of our time. boris johnson will be in studio discussing his new memoir, unleashed, the gripping story of how he dealt with plotting politicians problematic princes and a pandemic. >> from boris bikes to brexit and everything else in between, this sunday at 9:30 am. only on gb news, the people's channel, britain's news. channel. >> hello there, i'm michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. alex dean, the conservative commentator alongside me, as is aaron bastani, the co—founder of novara media. there's not much forgiveness, i can tell you now coming in for keir starmer, about this, retaining the £6,000 it was for. it was for taylor swift tickets, some horse racing tickets , basically, and some tickets, basically, and some clothes. will there be any more money going back ? who knows? money going back? who knows? time will tell. but look, we did

see of course, the final four candidates in the tory leadership bid making their pitches today at the tory party conference. one of my viewers, sharon, says, i didn't find any of them inspiring. michel. and i was sitting there hoping that nigel farage was going to walk in, get on the stage and make a speech. that's definitely not going to happen. you are indeed a tory. alex dean, what do you make to what you saw today? >> so i have the reverse view of sharon. i thought they were all four of them. good. and i felt we've got a good future as a party. i rather regret, though, that they had to make those speeches. my view is that the programme of action should have been such that the last speech at conservative party conference was given by our new leader. we should have been selecting that person by then. then the conference would have had purpose. it would have had a launch pad job to do, to give our new leader the opportunity and one of the reasons that labour party conference fell very flat last week, i think, was that people are waiting for

the event of the budget, the first budget to happen on the current timetable. we will not have a new leader in place by the budget, which is the most significant economic event probably this year. we're not going to be ready for it, but tell us sunak will be responding. >> why? why have they chose that timeline? >> in part, it's because we believe in having a suitable process in which people are battle tested. and i get all of that. i just think we've got it a bit wrong, and we should have learned our lesson from the sunak truss campaign, which took longer than liz truss was in government for. so we should have learned our lesson. and doing these things more quickly is sensible, and so that our conference should have been the launch pad for the new leader. instead, we're going to limp through to the budget period, and our response is going to be given by the outgoing leader rather than the new one. and i just think it's tactically a bit of a mistake. >> aaron, i think that's spot on. i mean, i would go even further and say that actually october 30th, isn't it, with the autumn statement that is going to be the single most important, budget this country has seen since the autumn statement from george osborne in 2010. it's going to be a real test of

labour's mettle, and i think if they get it wrong, if rachel reeves doesn't land very possible. it's a one term government. equally, she may actually pull a few rabbits out of a hat. she might please more constituencies than we think is looking likely at the moment, and they might get a bump and they might see away. this terrible several months that they've had. i don't personally think that's going to happen, but you never know in politics. so it's a hugely important moment. and i think alex is right to not have your new fresh, clean cut leader waiting to seize the opportunity is a bit of a mistake. >> because the truth is, in politics, normally the activity of the opposition is defined by what people think about the government and how the government and how the government is doing. that was clearly the case with starmer, who was doing very well because people hated us so much at the time. people, people voted up and down this country to get rid of the conservative party message received very clear. but now our position should be dictated to by the by the timetable the government has. and it's just you've got to cut your cloth to according your means. and our means right now should have been dictated by being ready for the budget, >> you know, i don't mean to be harsh or anything, but some of

the things that we're talking about, they're so obvious. and when i want to, when i look for leaders that i want to lead the country, i want them to be the creme de la creme. i want them to be so much better than your average joe on the streets. but some of the things that we're talking about, keir starmer not knowing that another fellow shouldn't be buying his mrs. clothes, you sitting here and talking about conference season, budget timelines and you know, the whole process taking way longer than it should. it's so bafic longer than it should. it's so basic things and i just it's just basic things. >> and to be to be fair of course there was a timetable. there's been a timetable for conservative party's leadership whilst it's been tinkered with in place for some time and its merits have been debated. but, you know, some people would say you've got to stick to the rules, so there's a defence to be made of it. on the other hand, if and we don't expect this currently, but if one of the current four does exceptionally well in the next round and there's one person due to be eliminated, but there are two way behind, there will be some pressure on those other two to drop out. i'm not saying that they will, but we might actually have a leader in place before the budget, just not by design. >> on the leadership, michael

has said michelle, choosing a tory leader is now like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. >> yeah, a bit harsh. it's a novel metaphor no one's heard before. thank you . michael, has before. thank you. michael, has it got a point, though? no, i don't think he has in with all due respect to michael, because, in british politics, in the end, we tend to switch between being led by one of the parties or the other. admittedly, we had a coalition in my lifetime once the conservative lib dem coalition in which we hugged the lib dems to death and they had some electoral challenges. thereafter, the next government will be labour or conservative, and therefore to that extent , and therefore to that extent, selecting the next leader of the conservative party is not to say that with such confidence, though, why are you so clear and able to discount the likes of, say, reform? well because they got a high point so far in their electoral successes. five members of parliament and they may well not have that at the next election. in the end, i'm about what can be done in politics, not about what people might regard as a dream or a perfection or ideal. you've got to deal in reality in politics. >> aaron june, one of my

viewers, has got in touch saying this obsession with keir starmer's clothes, spectacles, whatever it's all a drop in the ocean compared to the ppe scandal and the focusing on all of this is political. what would you say to june? >> well, there's absolutely a great deal of truth to that. but look, keir starmer has this massive, massive mandate. keir starmer in july won more mps, labour won more mps than margaret thatcher did in 1979, 1983, 1987. labour have a huge number of mps. why? because they said, we are the alternative to tory sleaze and i think people are merely judging keir starmer against his own words. you know, you had labour party conference and he said we're going, we're going to put politics back in the service of working people. a huge thing to say. i think it's a great thing to say, but you can't say we're putting politics in the service of working people, and then all of a sudden give an immeasurable amount of influence to somebody who's worth £200 million and happens to be a labour lord. and people say, well, how can it be corrupt? he's a labour lord.

well, okay. how did he become a labour lord? let's then have the conversation about unelected legislators and their relationships to political parties and party donations. so look, no, it's not as bad as ppe andifs look, no, it's not as bad as ppe and it's not as bad as many of the challenges facing the country like housing, like energy, etc. but this is the ground that keir starmer wanted to fight politics on. he's made this problem himself. >> you can't be the answer to sleaze and pocket 100 grand in a single parliamentary term . single parliamentary term. >> i just find it so odd, matt says, michelle, we should be. he wants essentially to go back and have another general election off the back of all of this stuff. i'm like, matt, really? is that really what you want to do ? not another one, as brenda do? not another one, as brenda would say. so who do you want to be the next tory leader than alex? >> i went to conference with an open mind. i think they're all good candidates. if i'm giving a vote now, i would for vote robert jenrick. >> would you? what about you? who do you think? >> well, i'm not the target audience, but i suspect the best candidate for labour would be kemi badenoch, because i think

she. she seems to have almost a self—sabotage. you know, gene, where she has to say something silly. she doesn't actually believe every other day. so i think from a labour perspective, kemi badenoch would probably be the best option , the best option, >> of course, kemi badenoch, she came under a bit of pressure, didn't she, about her kind of flippant, i would say, comments. she made about, wiping people's backsides. did you see that? that seemed to upset quite a lot of people, look, that's almost all we've got time for, alan. alan has got in touch and said, i've got no time for politics at the moment, michel. and he won't have until there's a proportional representation system in this country. if that was in 2014, i've moved on since i voted for electoral reform. >> my side lost. sometimes you have to accept the losers. consent is important in politics. we lost. >> do you think we should have another referendum on that? >> good man. alan, no more referendums? no. i think you have a referendum for a major constitutional question, i think, for changing your electoral system, especially for av. it wasn't necessary. i think we should have electoral reform. >> the government should just do

it. >> if you've got a large majority, if it's a tiny majority, if it's a tiny majority, absolutely not. but if you have a labour style majority but no government that just won an election under the current rules is going to switch to a new one. >> that's the perversity. is your test. no, no. government would say, look, look, we just won this thumping majority. let's change the rules. >> here's the thing. i'll say it quickly. labour and the tories got the lowest combined vote that they've got for a very long, long time. and i think it's very possible that the lib dems are in coalition with labour after the next general election. i know you disagree, and i think that's when actually the debate around pr becomes quite lively, >> robert says can't believe the arrogance on display, saying that reform uk would have no chance at the next election. and gareth has been in touch and said we shall. even the lovely brenda from bristol might now flip flop on that statement and say that now it is time for another general election. goodness me. well, i'll tell you what, it's time for the end of our programme. thanks for your company tonight. thanks to each and every one of you at home. but i'll see you tomorrow night. >> we'll see a cold snap. oh

which will quickly develop into a warm front . boxt which will quickly develop into a warm front. boxt boiler repairs. sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello. good evening and welcome to your gb news weather update brought to you by the met office. well, it's going to be a cold night ahead with some frost and fog in places, but generally high pressure is building in bringing plenty of fine and settled weather to come. still, low pressure dominating across the south, so cloudier here with some showers but high pressure in the north is building across the country, bringing plenty of fine and settled weather. now as we head into this evening. still some cloud across the south, but it is generally breaking up as we head into the overnight period, so leaving plenty of clear spells largely dry, though still, the chance of a few showers just poking into southeastern coasts , but southeastern coasts, but otherwise a dry night for many. plenty of clear spells, so it will be feeling cold with some fog in places too, particularly in northern areas. might just be a little bit slow to clear by the time we reach tomorrow morning. as well. so as i say, particularly across scotland, it will be feeling cold. likely to see some grass frost. may even

see some grass frost. may even see a little bit of frost on your cars during the early hours of the morning, and there will be fog in places too. so do take care when travelling. this generally lifting and breaking through the course of the morning. but as i say, there may be some stubborn fog which is slow to clear, largely dry across the south. still, those showers just feeding in to the southeast coast. but as i say, high pressure building in bringing plenty of fine and settled weather across the country, there is still the chance of the odd shower across the southeast, but you'll probably be unlucky if you do catch any largely dry. plenty of sunny spells and some lighter winds as well. so even though temperatures are generally round about average with highs of around 16 or 17 in the southeast, it will probably feel more pleasant in those lighter winds as we head into friday. still, plenty of fine and settled weather around, but low pressure is trying to edge its way into the west. so cloudier pressure is trying to edge its way into the west. so cloudier here with some outbreaks of rain here with some outbreaks of rain across northern ireland and across northern ireland and western parts of scotland, and western parts of scotland, and there will still be plenty of well. is trying to edge its there will still be plenty of fine, dry weather across the fine, dry weather across the country as we head into the country as we head into the weekend. but we are expecting weekend. but we are expecting

some more unsettled spells as some more unsettled spells as well. so as always, stay tuned for all the details. bye for now . for all the details. bye for now. >> a nice bright morning will generate a lovely warm day right to the evening. solar

gb news. >> good evening. today the beauty pageant. yes, the four hopefuls for the tory leadership had their presentations to the annual conservative party conference. tonight we debate who is going to win. did anybody go who is going to win. did anybody 9° up who is going to win. did anybody go up or down today? and keir starmer goes to brussels. yes. he does. it's all part of his eu reset. what did we learn from the speech he gave after the meeting. and a surge in migrant hiv cases in our country. this is people with hiv that have been born abroad. i've got to ask the question, is this really

what the national health service