faster than any other prime minister in history, except liz truss. penthouses, pensioners , truss. penthouses, pensioners, private schools and prisoners popping private schools and prisoners popping champagne corks. it's been, some might say, a total mess. alastair campbell says that their popularity is nothing to do with any of that. it's because labour are apparently held to higher standards. is he right .7 and surprise, surprise, right.7 and surprise, surprise, education experts are warning that labour's plan to rush through vat on private school fees must be thought through and delayed, despite the education secretary's sneering and divisive claim that state schools need more teachers, more than private schools need embossed stationery. nice. she may not be able to punish the rich as quickly as she hoped. is that good news? let me know. and it's the anniversary of october the 7th. hamas massacre of

course, tensions are currently very high between israel and iran, but here i6% of young brits believe that attacks carried out by hamas were justified. why might they think that? and also this evening, bbc salaries, given that you pay them, are they too high? gary lineker is renegotiating his £i.3 lineker is renegotiating his £13 million contract with the corporation. it might be forced to take a pay cut for talking about men kicking a ball . all about men kicking a ball. all that in the next hour. first, though, the very latest news headunes though, the very latest news headlines with will hollis . headlines with will hollis. >> good evening. the time is 6:01. i'm will hollis with your latest news stories. a major incident has been declared in northern ireland after a bus crash in county down. according to the ambulance service , police to the ambulance service, police in northern ireland say that two

children who were trapped on board the bus have sustained serious hand injuries. 27 children have been taken to the royal hospital in belfast, with minor injuries, while 70 people were on board. it is understood there have been no fatalities. gb news spoke to passenger alex hagan at the scene. >> the bus started wobbling a wee bit and everyone gets a bit, you know , weary of it, scared. you know, weary of it, scared. and then we go down a bit more and the bus just topples over and the bus just topples over and i like, i can't remember what happened in between, but it's like it was like i woke up and i climbed up one of the seats so everyone under me could get up and i looked under me and everyone else was freaking out and screaming. >> former police officer david carrick has been charged with sex offences against two women. in a statement, the cps has said david carrick has been charged with five counts of indecent assault , two counts of rape and

assault, two counts of rape and one count of sexual assault. he has also been charged with one count of coercive and controlling behaviour . this controlling behaviour. this morning, people across israel gathered to mark the one year anniversary of the october 7th attacks in jerusalem. israelis carrying flags and placards with the faces of missing people gathered outside president netanyahu's home at the time of 629 local time, a siren rang out to mark the exact hour that hamas led militants launched rockets into israel last october 7th, according to israeli figures, they killed some 1200 people and took some 250 hostages. hostages into gaza . hostages. hostages into gaza. earlier, foreign secretary david lammy visited a synagogue in north london to mark one year since the attack on israel. joined by chief rabbi to the uk, rabbi ephraim mirvis, they

commemorated those who lost their lives one year ago. this is what the foreign secretary had to say. >> it is a day of deep reflection and pain. thinking about october the 7th, the worst attack on the jewish community since the holocaust, and of course, thinking about the many hostages that are still held in gaza and their loved ones, and the pain and particularly we think of emily demari, the british hostage, and her family have no word of her fate or how she is doing new polling carried out on behalf of the campaign against antisemitism has found what they called concerning levels of support for hamas among young people in britain. >> the yougov poll found that 9% of 18 to 24 year olds in the uk

had a so—called favourable view of hamas , compared to just 3% of hamas, compared to just 3% across the general public. in politics, parliament is back following a recess for the various party conferences which have been taking place over the last few weeks . mps are now back last few weeks. mps are now back at westminster, but their return coincides with further controversy for the government after yesterday's departure of the prime minister's chief of staff, sue gray. it prompted sir keir starmer to reshuffle his inner circle, with the leader of labour's general election campaign, morgan mcsweeney , campaign, morgan mcsweeney, taking on the chief of staff role instead , a gp has been role instead, a gp has been jailed after a string of indecent assaults against seven female patients in berkshire . female patients in berkshire. doctor stephen cox has been sentenced to 22 years in prison at reading crown court. cox was found guilty of 12 counts of indecent assault but acquitted

of four during the long, month long trial this year. the jury was told how he made patients undress unnecessarily and touched their breasts without gloves. the doctor assaulted seven female patients on multiple occasions between 1988 and 1997. and finally, for you today , reform uk is preparing today, reform uk is preparing a private prosecution of the men involved in a violent altercation with police officers at manchester airport in july. mps have written to the home secretary claiming the officers involved have been thrown under the bus, and that the alleged assailants are being given special different treatment. in their letter, they also claimed that a senior police officer overruled a recommendation to release footage of the incident, which was later leaked to a newspaper at 6:06. those are your latest headlines. i'm will hollis with more in one hour for

the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone , sign up to to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com. >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> very good. welcome to dewbs& co. very warm welcome. it's been a long day for me. bev turner standing in for michelle dewberry my panel this evening for former conservative minister steve baker, i'm delighted to say you're here with me, steve. i've been dying to get you on gb news and get involved in a conversation. a former labour minister, bill rammell, who i see fairly regularly on britain's newsroom. right, gentlemen, we also want to hear from the audience. gbnews.com/yoursay get in touch at home. let me know your thoughts. we're starting tonight with the question of whether the labour party is in crisis. yesterday, sir keir starmer's chief of staff quit amid fears that her role was becoming, in her words, a distraction from the government's work. this comes as today, a new yougov

poll has found that a majority of britons describe the labour party as sleazy. alastair campbell weighed in today, saying that labour governments are basically held to a much higher standard compared to tory governments, so the freebie and donation route is rumbling on. starmer is shuffling his backroom staff. are they in chaos ? bill, let me come to you. chaos? bill, let me come to you. it's not a great start. it's going to be 100 days this weekend, 12th of october. there have been some moments which you think if you'd sat down and thought what would be the worst possible thing that could happen in the first 100 days? seeing the prisoners come out, popping champagne corks and saying, i'm always going to for vote keir starmer? you couldn't have thought that up if you thought of the most nightmare scenarios. so he's had these you might call them comms disasters. i would call them policy disasters . call them policy disasters. perhaps getting rid of sue gray, who may not mean a lot to the people at home because we don't necessarily who know who these civil servants are. is she just

been dispensed of in order to appear to be doing something to get his house in order? well, look, i'll acknowledge it's not been a good few weeks, and i've worked with sue gray when i was a government minister, and i've got a lot of time and respect for her, but this couldn't be allowed to go on , you know, she allowed to go on, you know, she has become the story. >> i think there are question marks about her political nous , marks about her political nous, her political judgement. and i think what keir has demonstrated yet again, is he's utterly ruthless when he needs to be in making key decisions. the criticism i would make is it's gone on for too long, and that is a concern i have about keir, that sometimes he takes too long to reach decisions and conclusions , and all the while conclusions, and all the while we're being challenged over what we're being challenged over what we're doing. >> but her political judgement is no different than it was six months ago. it's no different when he hired her. surely that means that his judgement of her wasn't good? >> well, i think it may have been the wrong choice. and her transition from the civil service to the political arena

has come unstuck. but i think the other lesson out of this, and alastair campbell was talking about this today and he's got real insight. you need constantly in government to be explaining on a day by day basis what the government is doing, why it's doing it, how it's doing it , to give a sense of doing it, to give a sense of momentum, moving forward. and i think that's what's been lacking dunng think that's what's been lacking during our initial period in government, steve, is that your assessment of the situation? >> because i think i'm quite clear about this government's policy appears to have just been to take as much tax as possible, spend as much public money as possible, and make us as poor and as cold as possible. i'm under no illusions and control as much as they possibly can. so is it just a massive comms fail then ? then? >> no, of course it's not. it's a massive failure of organisation within downing street. i mean, they've managed to achieve in about 14 weeks what took us 14 years and a couple of existential crises to achieve in terms of level of chaos. and it's a sign that the downing street operation was not set up well , that lines of

set up well, that lines of authority actually not just communication, but lines of authority, weren't well defined. and like bill, i worked with sue gray while i was in government, and she's a very professional lady, but it's pretty clear that it didn't work when she was moved into downing street. and, you know, it's not actually funny because our country has to be governed like this. and it's turned into a clown show and it's turned into a clown show terribly, terribly quickly. >> this idea, though, of course , >> this idea, though, of course, she's saying that she's walked away, that she hasn't been sacked. >> she's been sacked. yeah, i mean, that's the reality. >> but then again, why is why is he then kicking sand in our eyes about that? why doesn't he say if he wants to appear, why does he say i've sacked her to protect her dignity? >> i mean, look, he's someone. she's someone that he's got a lot of time for. he doesn't want to sort of dance on her grave, but he's clearly, i think, taken the right decision to remove her. but we need to regain that sense of momentum. i don't think, steve. it's a clown show. you know, we had 14 years of

that, but we need a better sense of coherence and direction about what we're doing and why we're doing it. and i think that will come. and you know, you talk about the popularity ratings. let's see where we are in 18 months, two years time as the government begins to deliver on its agenda. the trouble with the popularity is, it appears when you look into the numbers of prime ministerial popularity, they only ever go down. >> they never go up. when once a prime minister is in, is in office. tony blair came in in 97 with a 60 point lead . by two with a 60 point lead. by two thousand and seven, it had fallen to minus 27 points. john major came in at 1990 with a 15 point, and then it fell 42 points. things only ever go downhill. and this is an ipsos political monitoring survey which has been going for 50 years. so i don't see how this is ever going to improve for starmer. >> well, it's very difficult to see how it would all the decisions that need to be taken are very, very difficult ones. some of the easy decisions have

been taken the wrong way. so for example, getting rid of the incentive to stop the boats, of sending people off to to, rwanda, you would think that he would have done anything rather than release those convicted criminals early. so some of the things which ought to have been easy decisions, they've made the decision the wrong way. but the truth is governing is very difficult. if you look at the obrs difficult. if you look at the obr's figures , with revenue obr's figures, with revenue soaring away and taxes stagnating , the spending stagnating, the spending decisions that labour are going to have to take are going to be very, very tough, whether they like it or not. >> but steve, you know, i would say this, wouldn't i? but a lot of the problems we've been deaung of the problems we've been dealing with are inherited from the last conservative government. you talk about the early prisoner release scheme, alex chalk, as justice secretary, told sunak, week after week after week you either build new prisons or you agree to early release. we had no alternative when we came into power, but we had, we had, we left office with a big prison building programme in place. >> i'm sure that's what i was, what i discovered when i went into my hustings. but, you know, as i say, all these problems are difficult and where i would

agree with you about inheriting the problem. i mean, i've been banging on about this for 14 years, since about the early 70s, governments have refused to face up to the appalling cost of age related spending. national insurance contributions didn't go into a sovereign wealth fund to pay for people's pensions. they got spent on pensions at the time, and the result is that there's a massive gap in the pubuc there's a massive gap in the public finances for the rest of our lifetimes , whoever's in our lifetimes, whoever's in power. and the crazy thing is that on something like retargeting benefits for pensioners towards poorer pensioners towards poorer pensioners , the conservative pensioners, the conservative party, in my view, has put itself on the wrong side of the argument. we should be lifting up poor pensioners and we shouldn't be giving benefits to pensioners who don't need them. i mean, when winter fuel allowance came in, it was a byword for waste among better off pensioners in whickham who'd either buy a good bottle of whisky or give it to charity. >> and now where you were the mp, of course . pardon. just was mp, of course. pardon. just was where the mp? >> yeah. where i was the mp but it was a byword for waste . and

it was a byword for waste. and you know now the conservative party i think has set itself up to look very foolish at rachel reeves budget. >> well, we're going to talk about the vat on private schools in the next section. but but this winter fuel issue, it's not going away. bill. and i think most people would agree like, you know, like steve just said that if you are a millionaire pensioner you don't need it. we're all on board. and that was clearly why they came out thumping on this issue. we're going to get rid of the winter fuel allowance. oh, and then they've pitched it too low. and if in the budget rachel reeves has to come out and amend this, does that look like strength to have reassessed or will that look like some sort of will it look like some sort of will it look like some sort of will it look like weakness? they got it wrong. >> all governments are just decisions that they take as they move forward. but there's always been a case for means testing the winter fuel allowance and pubuc the winter fuel allowance and public opinion is far more nuanced, nuanced on this than the press. and media would have you believe. i saw a poll last week. it's virtually 50 over 50 in terms of whether people support means testing or not. so i think the right decision was taken in principle. i do think

the threshold at the pensions credit level was too low, and i think there will be some adjustment on that in the budget. and i think that's the right thing to do. >> is alastair campbell right, steve, when he says that everything's going fine, the only issue is that that everybody holds labour to higher standards than the conservatives. what is he getting at? >> well, that's the first time he's ever made me laugh. i've met him once and we didn't get on terribly well because of his various histories in the previous time labour were in power, but that is ludicrous. i mean, what is the evidence that labour are treated more harshly? i mean , it's a statement made i mean, it's a statement made without justification or evidence . and i found it really evidence. and i found it really quite ridiculous. >> and it sounds very arrogant. >> and it sounds very arrogant. >> oh, well, it's just, just absolutely ludicrous. >> we are just better and we must be after everything we've been through. >> it wasn't the only thing alastair was saying about the crisis. and if you listened to him, he was making some measured criticisms of the government. however, it is an objective reality that labour governments, because we have progressive values, are held to a higher

standard than the conservative party . but that's standard than the conservative party. but that's a standard than the conservative party . but that's a reality of party. but that's a reality of political life. >> you have to live. what do you mean by who? who holds labour to higher standards than we would the conservatives? i think the media do, the public do because they say these good progressive people with good progressive instincts, we therefore need to judge you more harshly. that's why conservatives, you see, i don't think the left can have a monopoly on being good anymore . monopoly on being good anymore. if the last hundred days has taught me anything, it's that what is good about the policies that have been very difficult not to laugh about this one? >> bill, i think it's absolutely ridiculous. i mean, i was elected in 2010. you'll remember it, i'm afraid. very well. the expenses scandal. well, indeed. but the expenses scandal was the issue of the day, wasn't it? and ever since then, i think i and everybody else in parliament has understood that politics is war, minus the shooting. you don't take money, you don't take anything. you can't scrupulously justify in public. i thought everybody had learned that. and then we've been through this ridiculous debacle of clothes and spectacles. i mean, you

know, these very focal, rimless glasses are quite expensive when i glasses are quite expensive when l pay glasses are quite expensive when i pay for them myself. but the idea that a politician would have their spectacles paid for by someone else, by a rich look. >> my £15. >> my £15. >> amazing. >> amazing. >> amazing. >> the reality is labour has broken no rules. unlike the last conservative government who consistently did break the rules around the ministerial code and so many other issues. however, it's not a good look and i think that's where i'm sensing towards agreeing with you and the decision starmer has taken. and why he paid back the £6,000 is he's drawn a line of the general election and made sure that he is not going to take any donations, and that's what they are donations from supporters. it's not abuse of public funds . it's not abuse of public funds. he will not take any donations while whilst he is prime minister. we've got to be held to that and we've got to make sure that it's carried out across the board. >> did you ever get any massive donations personally, on a personal level, either of you, anybody come along and say, i'm going to buy you suits for you, bill? >> no, but i, like many people,

you know, i accepted tickets to wimbledon, for example. i don't think i ever. yeah. no, i did receive a ticket to football. it's been common practice across the parties. i think the lesson from this experience is you can't do it. moving forward. >> but, you see, i don't mind about the visits to things. sometimes i think, you know what, go and do your networking. go and meet people, go and fight, you know, go into the boxes, meet business people like i'm all right with those visiting things. it's the stuff i find a bit weird. >> well, yes, but so to answer your question directly, i think the closest i've ever come to any kind of common ground was going to wycombe wanderers at their expense, which is meticulously declared. but i don't think many people will object to the local mp supporting the local football team, which is it normally costs to go to wycombe wanderers. >> honestly, i can't remember. >> honestly, i can't remember. >> it was two and six now. steady on. but no. look, the thing is about the visits. is that the reason that commercial and vested interests generally want a politician to go to these visits is so they can control who's around them so they can get messages to them. that's why they do it. and that's why going to visits is controversial. you know, whether it's dinners or

whatever, and you can't avoid it in politics, you're there to represent and that includes listening to interests. but it's one thing to go to a dinner in the house of commons with 20 or 30 other mps. when you're a backbencher and hear out a charity. yeah, it's another thing to go and sit in a box at the tennis with a very tightly controlled set of people around you who plainly are there in order to impress upon you as prime minister, their particular special vested interests or soon to be prime minister, indeed, even potentially even more dangerous, right, gentlemen. >> great start. thank you. we've got to take a quick break. coming up in a minute. labour may have to delay imposing this vat on private school fees. experts have warned that they basically haven't thought this through. their plans may be unworkable. the education secretary says state schools need teachers more than private schools need embossed stationery. great is labour's right or fair? let's

welcome back to dewbs& co with me. bev turner. this week i am delighted to say that i'm joined by former conservative minister steve baker and former labour minister bill rammell this evening. now we've got rachel reeves upcoming budget, of course, over the horizon with the row over imposing vat on private school bills heating up tax experts, unions and school leaders are now casting doubt on whether these plans could even be implemented by the 1st of january next year. they're saying it's unworkable. education secretary bridget phillipson tweeted over the weekend the tone of this that gets me state schools, she says , gets me state schools, she says, need teachers more than private schools need embossed stationery. children need mental health support more than private schools need new pools, and students need careers advice more than private schools need

astroturf pitches. steve, let me come to you first on this. the tone of these tweets from the education secretary really just confirms my suspicion that this is just a vindictive and punitive tax on people who send their children to private school, but it won't affect the multi—millionaires. they can pay their 20%. it won't affect the billionaires. they will still send their children to private school. yeah, it's the middle classes, the doctors, the lawyers, those whose grandparents might help them out a bit to prioritise education. i'm delighted to hear that this might not get pushed through for all the right reasons. i think this is awful. yeah. >> me too. and i mean special educational needs is one of the reasons why it's come up, because people really do struggle to get their children the special educational needs education that they need. and yeah, i mean, i think it's ill thought through. i think it's class hatred. i think it's vindictive. i personally, i think it was a sop to the left of the labour party in order to try and get away with

positioning to the right of the conservatives on fiscal matters, a way of trying to keep the left of the labour party quiet while they got on with being in for cutting, for example, winter fuel allowance. and i think it's part of their overall strategy. but it's a terrible thing to do. but it's a terrible thing to do. but equally, it was always a policy which could be easy to drop later . policy which could be easy to drop later. so policy which could be easy to drop later . so maybe they drop later. so maybe they floated it and of course they floated it and of course they floated it and of course they floated it with a timeline that's impractical because the schools can't until the budget register for vat in order to start charging vat from january. so the whole policy just doesn't practically work. so i wonder whether actually they floated it with the intention of having a row and dropping it later. >> surely not. well, because this is one of the electioneering promises bill. they made such a fuss of this in the run up to the election. we're going to punish the private school kids because ultimately it is the kids who will be affected by this, not necessarily the adults. do you do you buy steve's theory that the idea was always to row back on this? >> no, no i don't. and let me

say, firstly, i've got a bit of a problem with the tone of bridget's tweet because it does enable people to characterise it as class hatred. and i don't think that's actually her position, but i think it's the right policy. i think it's a fair policy. it's about prioritising the 93% of kids who go to state schools, as opposed to the 7% who go to private schools. and, you know, private schools. and, you know, private schools are businesses and they should be taxed as such . and should be taxed as such. and what it will do is raise a billion, billion and a half pounds that can be used to expand the numbers of teachers in state schools . and you know in state schools. and you know what? the overwhelming majority of the public back it. and in terms of the timing, private schools have known for ages that this has been coming down. the road, and i think the government should stick to its guns and implement it in january. >> any, any, any charity needs to wash its face in that by that measure, could be said to be a business. but education has always been understood to be a charitable purpose. and, you know, the idea that it prioritises the 93% of children, i'm afraid, falls down when you

realise that those children who come out of the independent sector will go into state schools, where there'll be immense pressure. you know, i've only just stopped representing wickham. i'm where i'm acutely aware of the pressure right across the school system. i mean, wickham abbey there in wickham, an amazing school. it's up there with eton. it's a girls school, but it's the same sort of calibre as eton. >> and you have the grammar school system in wickham as well. >> yeah, yeah. and of course, for some parents , their children for some parents, their children might just marginally fail to get into the grammar school, so they'll struggle to pay the fees to put their children through a private school instead. and those parents will will struggle and they'll be heartbroken as well. and so will the children when they're pulled out of a private school and then put into the upper schools. the upper schools do a terrific job. and of course, their disadvantaged because they are missing the top. the top achieving cohort. so they're disadvantaged in the league tables. but it'll cause just so much heartache and difficulty when those children come out of those private schools and try to find places

in the other schools, they're not going to. >> i think the numbers are massively overestimated of the number of kids who will actually leave private schools, in part because the private schools will suck up a lot of the vat increase by reducing their profits. and you know it is the right thing to do. it's about fairness and it's about prioritising those kids in there is the thing is, we don't know. >> and this is part of the concerns of these experts is there's been no impact assessment. and that's what's so shocking is that surely they should have taken the time to do that research. how many children are likely to leave the private system and go into the state schools? do we have the places? will there be teachers made redundant? how many private schools won't be able to stay open? they haven't done any of it, bill. >> but but you know underlying this private schools are incredibly good lobbyists. and the stories that we're seeing in the stories that we're seeing in the press are coordinated, organised stories by the private schools lobby who've got significant reach into the press

and media. the government has been very, very clear that it intended to do this. schools had time to plan for it. i bet you after it's implemented, the numbers leaving private schools will be negligible. >> i do think i want to point out that the emperor is naked here. it is an outrage that the government adds 20% tax to so many things that we buy. it's a hugely punitive tax . it's hugely punitive tax. it's regressive. you know, it is. it's a dreadful tax vat. and we've got so used to it being appued we've got so used to it being applied everywhere that we're now arguing about whether it's fair or to not, apply an extra 20% on top to school fees. >> i mean, really, it's always been the tory party's favoured tax instead of income tax. >> that's an interesting proposition. the truth is that the level of state spending that we have, national insurance, income tax and vat being the three biggest taxes, are all very hard to cut. but i think we need to be asking ourselves some very serious questions about whether we really think it's right to be adding 20% across

such a wide swathe of what people spend their money on, but then you've got to make up the money in terms of other taxation, one of one of the challenges is kids , bill, it's challenges is kids, bill, it's kids. >> that's the bit that i think i find so shocking about this policy. and bridget phillipson's tone of voice, because if you're asking children to leave school to go to a different school , to go to a different school, it's the child that's going to suffer. >> but, but, but it's about kids in state schools. and one of the real challenges within this is that private schools spend double the amount on those children than do state schools. and if this is generating funds that can be used to increase the numbers of teachers in state schools, i think that's a really it won't , though, will it? it won't, though, will it? >> it's not it's not going to be hypothecated. it's not going to say we're going to take this out of the private school system, and we're going to put it into education. >> no, that's exactly what the labour government is saying. it's talking about 6500 teachers who can be funded through this come from we haven't got that. >> people aren't training to be teachers. we don't have enough.

>> look at the record of the last labour government where we significantly increase the numbers of teachers within the system, where we significantly increase spending in schools . increase spending in schools. thatis increase spending in schools. that is what will happen progressively under this government. >> under the last labour government, the money supply tripled. there was an enormous credit boom that led into the global financial crisis, and that's why that labour government thought they'd abolished boom and bust. but that won't happen under this labour government. there won't be an enormous non—inflationary credit boom, and that's lots of new money. but without prices soaring, they won't be able to spend like they did in the past. it means they'll have to face up to incredibly difficult tax and spending choices, and they're not going to help themselves or pubuc not going to help themselves or public services by doing things like this daft policy of vat on school fees, which as we know now, i mean, the unions, even nasa pwc now, i mean, the unions, even nasa pwc approve it in principle, but, you know, have got a wide range of difficulties, like teachers being made redundant. well, you know, this is an ill thought through and unworkable policy. certainly by the january deadune. certainly by the january deadline . and i think it's going deadline. and i think it's going to be one that they'll have to

row back on. >> i agree with you in part, steve, that the success of this labour government is predicated on economic growth. that's how we're going to deliver improvements in public services and investment in public services. but i also agree that, you know, we face incredibly difficult decisions. and one of the challenges is that there is a political culture that people want , a political culture that people want, scandinavian a political culture that people want , scandinavian style public want, scandinavian style public services at us levels of taxation. and that's the deceit between the public and politicians that's been going on for decades. >> i don't think we do expect that anymore. i'd be quite happy with estonian level public services at the moment. maybe . services at the moment. maybe. >> well, we've got a lot of work to do. we do need to be honest with the public about, you know, somebody's got to pay and you and as michael says here, one of our viewers. >> evening, michael. private school parents are already paying school parents are already paying for state schools and not using the places. in the future. they will use the places and it will end up costing money. it's that similarity between the health service people who are paying health service people who are paying for private health care and not using it. and, and, you

know, people feel they've got less money in their pocket. they're going to be more people going into public services. >> you know, private schools entrench privilege. you know, a disproportionate number of private school kids go to the best universities in the country. no, no. they do. you look at the figures and that's still the reality. and they get the best jobs . and we want the best jobs. and we want a more even playing field. and that's why the priority has got to be state schools. >> okay. right. thank you gentlemen. still to come this evening the anniversary of october 7th massacre. of course, today we're going to be discussing how people in the uk have been reacting to the unfolding events in the middle east, and some new polling released about how young people here feel about the

welcome back. dewbs& co with me bev turner. this evening, sitting here for michelle dewberry for most of this week, i'm delighted to say keeping me company tonight until 7:00. former conservative minister steve baker and former labour

minister bill rammell gbnews.com/yoursay to let me know your thoughts this evening. now, of course, it is the one year anniversary of the october 7th massacre in israel and new polling carried out on behalf of the campaign against anti—semitism has found what they call concerning levels of support for hamas among young people in britain. 16% of young brits believe that the october the 7th massacre was justified . the 7th massacre was justified. bill. i wonder whether they feel it's justified , given subsequent it's justified, given subsequent action by netanyahu. and if you'd asked them on the 8th of october, they would have said it wasn't justified. and it was it wasn't justified. and it was it was atrocious. but the relentless bombing of gaza, i suspect, has persuaded some of these young people to say, oh, well, you know, maybe they were right after to all, do that. >> well, i mean, the starting point is that what happened on october the 7th was abhorrent and was abject terrorism , and was abject terrorism, slaughtering of innocent people. and israel has a right to self—defence. but i think there

is a growing concern that the actions of the israeli government have been disproportionate. and i saw a poll yesterday that's actually the view of 60% of british people. and we need to get a ceasefire and we need to get a political solution. however, underlying this, i think there is a concern about the way that people on what i would describe as the unthinking hard left, and that's disproportionately populated by young people , just po gopulated b y young peo ple , just populated by young people, just go in for abhorrent views like support for hamas. and when you put that alongside the fact that there's been a 465% increase in anti—semitic attacks on university campus in the last yean university campus in the last year, that's an appalling set of circumstances. >> yeah . steve, let me come to >> yeah. steve, let me come to you. it's such a mess and the whole situation is miserable on both sides. we're looking this evening as well at israel, talking about potentially bombing iran. is that coincidental with it being

october the 7th? possibly, possibly not. but how do we in this country try to bring people together, these protests at the weekends in, in london, now going on for a year, are divisive and they're causing all sorts of friction in communities. >> they absolutely are. and having just come from representing high wycombe, where about 20% of the population are british muslims , i've seen that british muslims, i've seen that for myself. i think, as bill did, the first thing we've got to say is that hamas are terrorists, and what they did brooks no justification, no sympathy. it was depravity of the worst degree . what they did the worst degree. what they did and anyone who's thinking of expressing any sympathy should actually examine what was done . actually examine what was done. and one of the consequences of that depravity is to have made it practically impossible to be heard. if one wishes to express any kind of sympathy for the plight of innocent palestinians. now that is the issue at the heart of the division in communities like wycombe is that british muslims who followed these issues for many, many years and know that these issues

did not begin a year ago , do did not begin a year ago, do want to express sympathy for the thousands and thousands of innocent palestinians who suffer terribly, particularly for with example, water being turned off. they've suffered terribly at the hands of hamas as well as at the hands of hamas as well as at the hands of hamas as well as at the hands of israel. now, in this war. but the sheer depravity of what hamas did can't can't be excused by anyone. and everybody should be really clear about about that . about that. >> it's bill. we're looking at the pictures here of some of the protests which have been going on.and protests which have been going on. and when this first happened a year ago, i don't think as a broadcaster, i sat here considering that we would still be here a year later with tensions ramping up and ramping up, do you do you think that international leaders have done enough to try and quell this? >> well, i think there has been efforts, but , you know, >> well, i think there has been efforts, but, you know, as a former minister of state for the middle east, at the foreign office, it's bloody difficult

excusing my, my french decades. but i think, i think one of the real worries as well is that and, you know, i'm absolutely clear that what hamas did did was atrocious and wrong. but there's no sense that netanyahu wants a political settlement. and, you know, there are hundreds of thousands of israelis on the streets of israelis on the streets of israel protesting because they can see he doesn't want a political solution because, bluntly, if he gets one, he's likely to be ejected from office and then subject to criminal proceedings for corruption . and proceedings for corruption. and i think israel and its security interests are ill served by the current government , interests are ill served by the current government, and that that needs to change. but certainly the international community has got to renew pressure to , to get a ceasefire pressure to, to get a ceasefire and to get a long term political solution because, you know, it's a whole old hackneyed phrase. but the two state solution is still the only viable route to get security for israelis and palestinians. >> do you have any faith, steve,

that if donald trump is president in a matter of weeks, that he can turn the heat down on this situation? >> well, we'd have to hope that whoever the president of the united states is can do it. but beanng united states is can do it. but bearing in mind that donald trump forgive me because i forget if he's now carried it through. but he went to move the us embassy to jerusalem. and thatis us embassy to jerusalem. and that is a very inflammatory thing to do. you know, the settlements around jerusalem are capable of rendering impossible a two state solution. and that's why moving the embassy to jerusalem is such an inflammatory thing to do. so i don't see donald trump defusing the situation at all. no, i think he's likely to make it worse. but, you know, i there was a period there were no wars under his premiership. >> it's worth remembering that. well , >> it's worth remembering that. well, indeed. but you do wonder if the crazies around the world look at donald trump and think, well, we think we're crazy. well , well, we think we're crazy. well, you may be one of us. >> in the course of the brexit years, there were times when we

adopted certain postures to make sure everybody knew what the penalty would be if something happened, but it's a very high risk strategy, and it's not a strategy which should be adopted by those who actually wield nuclear weapons. i do note that donald trump crossed the boundary into north korea, and if he if i'm sure if obama had done that, it would have been a much better received with a lot more rejoicing. and yeah, you're right, the truth is that a lot of good stuff happened with donald trump, particularly on their economy. but the tone and their economy. but the tone and the manner in which donald trump does his politics, i find, completely unacceptable, of coui'se. >> course. >> but i think you can draw a distinction between the two, though, don't you? do you have i have i have a strange faith bill that if donald trump is elected, even though i can distinguish between the politician and the man, and i think he might be able to solve. no, i mean not solve several hundred years of conflicts in the middle east, but i think he might be able to get people around a table and sort out some solution. do you not know? >> i don't share that view at all , bev, you know, >> i don't share that view at all, bev, you know, i'm horrified at the prospect that

donald trump might win the election. i think he's a danger in international affairs. you know, his track record is cosying up to dictators like kim jong un in north korea. and putin. and i think you need serious leadership, though when donald trump was in power , there donald trump was in power, there was peace. well, well, you know, things happen in international affairs that are outwith the remit of any president or any prime minister. and i think that was luck rather than judgement. but but you know, we need the pressure to get a settlement in the middle east. and part of that pressure has got to be putting pressure on israel. i refer to my time as minister of state for the middle east. i remember a conversation with lippy remember a conversation with lippy livni, who was then deputy prime minister of israel, and she said to me privately, she said, you know, you guys need to be tougher on us sometimes. and what she was saying was that, you know, there are extremist forces in israel and the good guys need, need pressure from the outside of israel to do the right thing. >> okay. right. still, to come,

gary lineker apparently renegotiating his contract with the bbc, is currently on £135 million for talking about . our bbc are too high given that you pay

welcome back to meet bev turner this evening. i'm delighted to say that steve and bill are still with me, because we're going to talk now about gary lineker. of course, it has been revealed that talks over his future has matched the day presenter have just started as he nears the end of his bbc contract. he's 63 years old, lineker now and he faces a possible pay cut. get out your world's smallest violins , world's smallest violins, fellersi a pay cut from his £1.35 million salary, which is supposed to be about 25%. i think they're talking about massive pay cut. the negotiations are underway . does negotiations are underway. does he deserve that bill that much

money? >> well, it's a bit ironic talking about salaries in the media when nigel farage is allegedly paid £1 million a year for appearing on gb news now we are a private company. however, however , i think the taxpayer however, i think the taxpayer but the taxpayer doesn't pay nigel. >> they elect him. no, no, don't pay >> they elect him. no, no, don't pay him. >> but look, in terms of the bbc, i think the bbc, you know, is a competitive media industry and it does need to pay higher salaries to attract the best talent. and lineker is widely liked and admired by the public and is a superb presenter of match of the day. now i think what's happening at the moment is they're going through a process of negotiation to try and shave a bit off of his salary. it's a normal part of the contract negotiation. >> oh, is he that popular, steve, it's got to be said. >> the bbc is categorically different to every other broadcaster because they're funded by force of law through the licence fee , and that makes the licence fee, and that makes them not a market participant. they're a privileged participant andifs they're a privileged participant and it's all very well wanting to participate and attract

talent in a competitive market. but the talent's in the market and the bbc's not because they've got this privilege. and i think they need to make their mind up either. the licence fee for a much reduced service that is limited to public service broadcasting , or they need to broadcasting, or they need to ditch the licence fee and go for a commercial life. gary lineker, whether he's worth it or not, the only thing i would say is are now a poor ex—mp if he wants me to. gary, if you're watching, if you want me to carry your bags, i'll do it for 10%. if you want me to listen to you moaning about brexit, it'll be 20. >> but you see, this is the thing. like we joke about, we kind of joke about the fact that anyone could do what he does. like, you know, gabby logan couldn't. do you not reckon. >> no, no no no. i mean, look, you're a presenter and, you know, it takes an awful lot of skill and experience to do what you do. >> it doesn't really, i can't lie, it doesn't. anyone can sit here talking. >> that's what happens with lineker. >> i am not a great football fan. even wycombe wanderers know that. but i used to say, oh, it's a game of two halves to my

wife. she'd laugh at me but i watched alan hansen say it's a game of two halves live on air. everybody nodded as if he'd said something. sage. and you're absolutely right. not everybody can do it. but £1 million is too much for the taxpayer to be bearing. >> but it's interesting that he's got what i think is quite interesting about this story is that the fact that he was able to get to the point where he was commanding 1.35 million, and now it almost feels like for the first time ever, there are calls for that to be reduced. something has changed. and i think a lot of it is about the change in the media landscape that there's so much choice now. nobody's really watching linear tv in the same way. they're certainly not watching the bbc do you watch match of the day? i do. do you watch it on a saturday night or a sunday morning? >> i watch it on recording sunday morning. >> you see a lot of people do that, don't they? they watch it on the sunday morning with a cup of coffee and a bacon butty or whatever. but you see, it's people aren't watching it in the same way. and i think now when you look at compared to a lot of the other salaries, the bbc, he is on way more than the next person. >> i think the bbc is coming

under questioning and scrutiny and that's why there's a reining back on the salaries. but i'm a massive supporter of the bbc. i think the country would be a lot worse without the bbc, but i do have worries that in an era where, you know, my kids won't get a tv licence because they don't, they don't use it. how you make the bbc finances sustainable in the longer term is a real challenge to the bbc. >> i have to say, in defence of the bbc, because i do think it's worth pointing this out. the bbc claim that for every £1 they of bbc economic activity, £2.63 is generated for the economy. >> oh, not this old nonsense. >> oh, not this old nonsense. >> why is that old nonsense? >> why is that old nonsense? >> they talk. this kind of economics involves pricing things which are not for sale. and it got done. it was done in relation to hs2 and what a disaster that is. and you know , disaster that is. and you know, i'm afraid economists accept a brief and go and come up with the figures there. >> but also 20, 21, 22, the bbc made 1.1 thousand 384 million from their commercial activities. so they will sell their products overseas . their products overseas. >> just privatise that, then just privatise the commercial stuff and do it properly.

doesn't need the bbc's brand, just do it in the in the private sector. >> i mean, look, i have a sort of sentimental attachment like most of us do, to the bbc, but maybe i think i definitely don't think gary lineker is worth 1.3 million. >> it's also in a time of crisis. most people turn to the bbc for its news feed. >> i think you'll find bill rammell that gb news is now snapping at their heels in times of crisis. hasn't been a crisis, gentlemen, i've loved it. i'll be back on britain's newsroom tomorrow morning at 930. see you then. >> we'll see a cold snap. oh. which will quickly develop into a warm front. boxt boiler repairs. sponsors of weather on gb news evening . gb news evening. >> welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. further heavy showers to come this evening. some places seeing some thunderstorms and some gusty winds too. the reason low pressure just sitting to the

west of the uk. not really moving very far but spiralling around it. these bands of showers drifting north with some very heavy downpours at the moment for south wales and south west england. we do have a met office yellow warning in place. those downpours head across the south east. they'll be easing a little but still turning up some heavy showers over east anglia. the midlands, north wales and northern ireland by the end of the night . clearer skies northern ireland by the end of the night. clearer skies in southern scotland northern england will allow temperatures to dip to single figures, but for most a pretty mild night, actually. and then tomorrow it's actually. and then tomorrow it's a case of watching more heavy showers with some brighter spells in between. may well be a fine start across east anglia, much of the south—east, but showers will quickly start to spread back in here. grey start for northern ireland, some outbreaks of rain pushing north and that will spread into parts of scotland during the day. but through the central belt, probably a dry start. notice the northerly winds across northern scotland still been dull and damp here today. it won't be quite as wet tomorrow, but staying pretty grey and feeling

cold with those winds, whereas in the south the winds are coming up from the south, bringing mild air but also coming up from the south, bringing mild air but also bringing mild air but also bringing heavy showers again , bringing mild air but also bringing heavy showers again , bringing heavy showers again, potential for some thundery bringing heavy showers again, potential for some thundery downpours, some sunny spells in downpours, some sunny spells in between but staying pretty drab between but staying pretty drab across southeast scotland and across southeast scotland and northeast england. feeling cool northeast england. feeling cool here as well with the winds here as well with the winds coming in from the sea, but in coming in from the sea, but in the south with a bit of sunshine the south with a bit of sunshine we could again get 18 or 19 we could again get 18 or 19 wednesday. again, we'll be wednesday. again, we'll be dodging the downpours, dodging the downpours, particularly over central and particularly over central and eastern england and this zone of eastern england and this zone of wet weather over southeast wet weather over southeast scotland and northeast england. scotland and northeast england. a drier day, maybe for wales and a drier day, maybe for wales and south—west england. a little bit south—west england. a little bit brighter as well with some sunny brighter as well with some sunny spells but again, with that wind spells but again, with that wind coming down from the north, coming down from the north, temperatures are going to temperatures are going to struggle, going to turn colder struggle, going to turn colder for all of us by the end of the for all of us by the end of the week. >> a nice bright morning will week. >> a nice bright morning will generate a lovely warm day generate a lovely warm day

gb news. >> a very, very good evening to you. i'm martin daubney and this is gbn. tonight on october the 7th, 2023. hamas launched the largest ever terrorist attack on israeli soil. the terrorist group killed 1189 people and took 251 hostage, one year on. we'll be taking a look back at the event that shook the region andindeed the event that shook the region and indeed the world. i'll be joined in the studio by the israeli ambassador to the uk to commemorate the event, and to discuss what next for the region . discuss what next for the region. and up next, as almost 1000 people crossed the channel illegally, this weekend, a shock new study conducted by oxford university shows that britain is the illegal migrant capital of europe. the research shows that up to 745,000 illegal migrants are now in the country. i think it's much more than that, to be honest. accounting for around 1 in 100 people have we? how have

we let it get to this point? and