we feel when the feel what do we feel when the russian state poisons or otherwise murders its opponents? my otherwise murders its opponents? my panel will turn its mind to the morality of eliminating your nemesis . classic fm host john nemesis. classic fm host john suchet has, over the years, found comfort and strength in the music of beethoven. he will join me to share his latest book, in search of beethoven, which charts the journey from the composer's early years in bonn to settling in vienna . as bonn to settling in vienna. as suchet has followed in his footsteps and interwoven his life with that of his hero is the allure of smartphones and social media, causing the younger generation to drift away from classic literature as shorter, visually engaging books gain popularity. traditional reading habits face a modern challenge. journalist charlotte lyon lytton will share her thoughts on that. and finally , thoughts on that. and finally, in our taste of britain will be sampling the best of british surf and turf with ian smith, executive head chef of number 50 cheney. all of that ahead. but first, your headlines with tatiana sanchez .

tatiana sanchez. >> michael, thank you very much. and good afternoon. the top stories. the king says he's greatly saddened by the sudden death of alex salmond, the former first minister of scotland. the alba leader died yesterday afternoon, aged 69, from a suspected heart attack dunng from a suspected heart attack during a trip to north macedonia. in a message issued by buckingham palace, king charles also said his devotion to scotland drove his decades of pubuc to scotland drove his decades of public service. we extend our deep condolences to his family and his loved ones at this time. mr salmond had made a speech at the institute for cultural diplomacy forum and is understood to have collapsed at lunch in a crowded room. the alba party said it understood he'd suffered a heart attack, although there will be a post—mortem examination to confirm the cause of death . confirm the cause of death. tributes continue to be paid across the political spectrum. tony blair saying he was very sorry to hear of his death. the

prime minister, sir keir starmer, said alex salmond was a monumental figure of scottish and uk politics. he leaves behind a lasting legacy. the former first minister of scotland, nicola sturgeon, said it remains the fact that for many years alex was an incredibly significant figure in my life and we formed one of the most successful partnerships in uk politics. members of the pubucin uk politics. members of the public in scotland have also been reacting to the death. >> his passing is a great shock and i think for most scots , and i think for most scots, whatever their opinions, it's sad. he's a. he was a pillar of the independence movement. >> i think he'll be remembered as the man that nearly got scotland independence. >> well, i nearly got his independence. but you know, nearly, nearly is not good enough. >> i can't believe it, to be honest. you're shocked. i don't even know how he died yet. i'm not sure. i met him years ago when he was trying to be. he was walking in swinton crescent in baillieston and he was handing out leaflets and he played pool. >> he's a good man, a very good

man, a very good man. done his best for scotland, you know . best for scotland, you know. >> some breaking news now that police say a man has been shot deadin police say a man has been shot dead in east london. a murder investigation has been launched after the victim, believed to be in his 30s, was found with a gunshot wound in barking shortly after 430 this morning. he was treated by emergency workers but died at the scene. the metropolitan police said. no arrests have yet been made. in other news, robert jenrick says he'll make sirjacob rees—mogg chairman of the conservative party if he triumphs against kemi badenoch in the party leadership contest as chairman. sir jacob, who lost his seat at the general election, would be put in charge of the party's campaigning operations. mr jenrick told gb news this morning that jacob has been a tireless campaigner for the grassroots and he understands better than anyone the need for party reform. >> i want to have a different way to select candidates so we end the favoured sons and daughters of the leader being

parachuted in. that was a disgrace. i want to stop members just getting emails asking for money but never asking what do they want? where do they want they want? where do they want the to party go? let's build a mass membership. democratic organisation. i think jacob will be a great asset to that . be a great asset to that. >> in other news, jonathan reynolds says it's not the government's position that p&o ferries is a rogue operator, despite a press release this week calling them a rogue employer. p&o ferries owner dp world will attend the international investment summit tomorrow. they'd previously threatened to pull out of the event, and a £1 billion port investment. that's after the transport secretary, louise haigh, criticised their employment strategy and called for a boycott. the operator was criticised by politicians from both main parties in 2022, when it suddenly sacked 800 british seafarers and replaced them with cheapen seafarers and replaced them with cheaper, mainly overseas staff, saying it was necessary to stave off bankruptcy. the business secretary told gb news camilla tominey that the billion pound investment will go ahead quickly

on this issue. >> that's not the government's position. the issue, obviously with p&o ferries is we're not going to recoil from that. we thought it was wrong. the fire and rehire that we saw those workers being sacked and then taken back on on fewer terms and conditions, but we have changed the law . it was lawful under the the law. it was lawful under the conservative government. it will be unlawful under this labour government. so where companies accept that, acknowledge that can work within that framework, we'll of course talk to them about investments. and i can tell you they're coming to the summit and the investment will go ahead. >> shadow secretary of state for work and pensions mel stride criticised louis hague's comments and the timing of tomorrow's summit. >> certainly not on the eve of an investment summit in which that business had at that point pledged to invest £1 billion in the uk economy and this is a general problem. so this, this investment summit has been shackled by the fact that , shackled by the fact that, firstly, it's come before a budget. so everybody is wondering what taxes are going to be levied on businesses. and i expect there will be a number,

possibly national insurance for employers, which now nearly 500 migrants have made the crossing of the english channel to the uk in one day. >> new figures released by the home office today show 471 migrants crossed the english channel on nine small boats yesterday. the latest arrivals bnng yesterday. the latest arrivals bring that total so far this year to 27,225, which is a 5% increase on the same time last yean increase on the same time last year, but 25% less than two years ago. over 13,500 have arrived since the 5th of july. a home office spokesperson insists they are committed to dismantling people smuggling operations, saying the government will stop at nothing to bring these criminals to justice. and the uk is among 40 nafions justice. and the uk is among 40 nations strongly condemning attacks on united nations peacekeepers in lebanon. earlier this week , israeli troops fired this week, israeli troops fired on un headquarters in southern lebanon, injuring two peacekeepers for the second time in as many days. it comes as

lebanon's health ministry says at least 15 people have been killed in the last day by israeli airstrikes on three different villages. that's after the israeli military accused hezbollah of firing over 300 projectiles at israel . projectiles at israel. meanwhile, hezbollah rocket barrages triggered sirens across northern israel overnight and early this morning in haifa, the third biggest israeli city and host of one of the country's biggest naval ports. sirens and explosions blared across the bay and people also rushed to nearby bomb shelters. an israeli army spokesperson said in a statement that five projectiles were identified crossing from lebanon into israeli territory, and were successfully intercepted by the iaf . and those are the latest gb iaf. and those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm tatiana sanchez. now it's back to michael portillo for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news

alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gb news .com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thank you very much , tatiana >> thank you very much, tatiana sanchez. as we discussed earlier , sanchez. as we discussed earlier, israel has changed the middle east in the last few weeks, deaung east in the last few weeks, dealing savage blows against iran's proxy armies and apparently causing iran itself to cower. these results ought to be welcome news to the democratic west. it seems that a key successful tactic has been to target the leadership in order to decapitate the opponents forces. the allies did not shy away from assassination in the second world war, and the united states used a drone to kill iranian general qassem soleimani near baghdad in 2020. but we are certainly outraged when russian agents poisoned the state's opponents abroad. so where are the ethical dividing

lines? i'm joined now by matthew lazer and aubrey allegretti, who are with me earlier, and by anna mikhailova mikhailova. mikhailova mikhailova. mikhailova from the mail on sunday and you were delayed in traffic earlier. thank you so much for persevering. anna, what do you make of the ethics of the assassination of your opponents? >> so i think there are two ways of answering the question. one is the sort of armchair philosopher view of discussing ethics and what's right and what's balanced, which a lot of people will subscribe to. and a lot of people will like that approach. and i think the second one is one of realpolitik . and one is one of realpolitik. and there the primary concern is what is in your national interest. and when it comes to the conduct of another country, it is that country an ally and does its interest on top of that augn does its interest on top of that align with your national interest and frankly, i think when you look at politicians and

governments, you know, making these sort of decisions and calls, it's the second that matters. and the second is how they are predominantly governed. >> so you would judge it only by whether it's in the national interest and whether it was in the interests of our allies or we had a common point of view , we had a common point of view, you wouldn't have an ethical consideration at all. >> not not me personally. i'm just saying that if you're a head of a government, that is how you must approach it. if you are an elected politician, that is how you must approach it. >> so how would you distinguish? or perhaps you wouldn't from what putin does. putin, the russian state, assassinates its opponents. are you equally? do you just think that's also a matter of realpolitik? >> well, it will, of course, you have a different point. of course it depends who is analysing it. if you're a if you're in a tutorial and you're talking about it, that is a completely different scenario. if you're a historian or if you're. and of course, one must absolutely remember the lessons of history and past examples and other examples of, as you say

correctly, political assassinations . but if we're assassinations. but if we're talking about how a government must approach things, then absolutely. the test is putin is not britain's ally. putin is acting in very much his own national interest, which does not in many ways align with the uk. so that is why there's a difference. >> yes. okay. your position is understood. aubrey . hezbollah is understood. aubrey. hezbollah is an organisation that's been defined as terrorists by, i think , 60 countries and think, 60 countries and organisations , and two of those organisations, and two of those organisations, and two of those organisations represent gulf states. so there's a there's a broad ish global consensus that hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. does that make a difference to you in considering this matter? >> i think there's two points to pick up on. first of all, there is the question about the motivation for some sort of attack or assassination attempt. is it about revenge , or is it is it about revenge, or is it about pursuing a point that

actually you think is going to give you a strategic military advantage and the efficacy of it? and i think when we heard the news earlier about un peacekeepers in lebanon being targeted as well, it gives rise to the suggestion that it's very hard to separate an individual and specific targeting of one person. and the wider conflict and the repercussions that will flow from one specific act. so i think there are difficulties in being able to contain your attempts to assassinate one sort of political leader , if you of political leader, if you like, or terrorist leader. and the wider fallout of it, which we'll see going on for the next few weeks, at least. >> and yes, of course there can be collateral damage. there can be collateral damage. there can be people killed that you didn't intend to kill. but i think one of the arguments for the assassination policy would be that if you decapitate the armies, if you remove their leadership , by the way, in this leadership, by the way, in this case as well, if you fundamentally disrupt their communications, you may be able to gain a victory with less loss

of life. there's probably a humanitarian argument to be made there. what would you say to that? >> yes, although that is an argument that's easier to be made afterwards rather than once. once the sort of the conflict in itself has been sort of contained, and you know, exactly how many lives were lost dunng exactly how many lives were lost during the course of it and how many you can then make a better guess at how many were saved. i suppose when you look more broadly at things like the pager attack, that was something which tried to decapitate the communications network, but obviously the risk of civilian loss in that case was extremely high as well. and i think for countries which are engaged in this sort of thing , the best this sort of thing, the best thing, i think slightly strange to say, but is to be transparent and open so that you're not looking like you're trying to hide anything or commit any sort of war crimes. you are being honest and open about your intentions and how you executed an operation. >> now i'm going to bring matthew in first, but i can see anna coming, which is great news. matthew, what what what do you make of this topic? >> well, i mean, i think it is a

very difficult balance because the name noel mason—macfarlane is not known to us all, but he was the british military attache in berlin in 1939, and he wanted 1939, and wanted whitehall to sign off an in berlin in 1939, and he wanted whitehall to sign off an assassination attempt on assassination attempt on hitler's 50th birthday. he had a hitler's 50th birthday. he had a plan. in fact, he talked to the plan. in fact, he talked to the times about it, apparently, and times about it, apparently, and obviously if he'd done that, obviously if he'd done that, then millions, tens of millions then millions, tens of millions of lives would have been saved of lives would have been saved if that if that had been if that if that had been successful, potentially. we obviously don't know what the successful, potentially. we obviously don't know what the consequences would have been consequences would have been within the german regime . so within the german regime . so within the german regime. so i think that orb is absolutely within the german regime. so i think that orb is absolutely right. for me. it's about the right. for me. it's about the targeted nature of it. do i targeted nature of it. do i think that, you know, taking out think that, you know, taking out an opponent of, you know, a an opponent of, you know, a foreign opponent of the status? foreign opponent of the status? i'd say the difference with i'd say the difference with putin is putin takes out his putin is putin takes out his internal opponents. these are internal opponents. these are people who oppose the putin people who oppose the putin regime. they're not people where regime. they're not people where you could say there is an you could say there is an ethical case that they are a ethical case that they are a threat to the state from threat to the state from outside. i mean, some of them outside. i mean, them who don't live in in russia outside. i mean, some of them who don't live in in russia anymore, but they are they tend anymore, but they are they tend to be his internal enemies that to be his internal enemies that he's taking out. and i think if he's taking out. and i think if it's if it's targeted, it's it's if it's targeted, it's morally justified to take out an morally justified to take out an

opponent. if you think that by opponent. if you think that by doing so, you're going to save doing so, you're going to save lives. >> well, if that's your point, lives. >> well, if that's your point, matthew, and i appreciate it, matthew, and i appreciate it, then presumably you you give then presumably you you give quite high marks to the israelis quite high marks to the israelis because they have been extremely because they have been extremely targeted. i dare say it's true targeted. i dare say it's true that people who were not that people who were not intended to die died as well, but they are picking off an individual flat. they are, you know, putting a missile through an individual window. i mean, this is pretty targeted stuff when they do that. >> yes. but the problem is, is that there's been they've we've had examples of them using very out of date intelligence . we've out of date intelligence. we've also had examples where they haven't been targeting in quite that in quite as, as, as as as specific a way as that. so yeah, i mean, you know , if they're i mean, you know, if they're taking out one person. yes. the page attack i think was very much on the edge because clearly by the nature of pages isn't assassinating somebody in their home. this isn't putting a bullet through their, their , bullet through their, their, their window. people wear them all the time. and as we saw, they were wearing them when they were in public places. and a lot of the injuries were to people

who were certainly innocent

what comes next, ”mt "enn'e who were "of — —— —— — — — — —— what comes next, then ”mt "enn'e whe were "of — —— —— — — — — —— what comes next, then it ”mt "enn'e wrre were "of — —— —— — — — — —— what comes next, then it can of what comes next, then it can be a very risky tactic. >> but aubrey, i might make the opposite point to anna's in the sense of saying that one of the things that's happened here, it seems to me, is we have intimidated, sorry, we israel has intimidated the iranian leadership. i imagine the iranian leadership sits there quaking, imagining that any one of them could be picked off. because it seems to me that israel has demonstrated that it actually has very good intelligence, very up to date intelligence. there must be a fantastic amount of penetration of its enemies for this intelligence to be available. they know where people are. it appears on a minute by minute basis. so my point would be that this, this targeting of your opponents actually discourages it has a fantastic deterrent effect. it discourages iran from entering the fray. and goodness knows how many lives are saved by that. >> quite possibly. i mean, i don't think we're at the point where we could say definitively that that's going to happen, but

it has certainly curtailed iran's sort of immediate retribution, if you like . they retribution, if you like. they were obviously involved in a sort of limited way in the aftermath, but i suspect there will be attempts to sort of dampen down the conflict. and the question is, is it sustainable? do you escalate to deescalate? i mean , it's deescalate? i mean, it's a question that preoccupies all sort of military strategists, and in some cases it works. in some cases, it doesn't. i think it's probably still too early to say whether it's worked in this case, matthew, a point that was made early on was that these attacks shouldn't be about revenge. >> it wasn't a point that you made, but it was made early on. and the united states killed osama bin laden . revenge or osama bin laden. revenge or justice? if you like. was the motivation there. how do you how do you feel about that? osama bin laden was probably not a future threat. he was being punished for what had happened in the past. how do you feel about that? >> yeah, i mean, again, i think, you know, if we're talking revenge, as in, you know, the sort of the things that the germans used to do where they would round up a village in

revenge for the in france, for the resistance killing a german soldier, obviously, that is completely wrong in terms of targeting bin laden, although he was not in his in his at that moment, at the peak of his powers. i don't think it was just totemic revenge. i think it was also because ultimately he was also because ultimately he was the head, even if at that moment rather disabled head of an organisation which was a clear and present danger to the united states. i think that justified that . justified that. >> thank you very much, panel, for your views . >> thank you very much, panel, for your views. i think you've highlighted the ambiguity of the whole thing. none of you has been exactly pinpoint clear. i think you've said upon the one hand, upon the other, but i found it a most interesting discussion. and my thanks, therefore, to matthew lazar, anna mikhailova and aubrey allegretti. and coming up, john suchet will join me to discuss his new book, in search of beethoven. we'll be back in about three minutes. thank you very much indeed

welcome back to sunday morning with michael portillo . i'm with michael portillo. i'm joined now by an acknowledged authority on ludwig van beethoven. he's already written seven books on the subject, and next week his eighth is released. it's called in search of beethoven, and it stands apart as a deeply personal account of john suchet's relationship with the great composer as he follows his footsteps from bonn to vienna. yes, i introduce author, journalist and classic fm presenter john suchet . hello, presenter john suchet. hello, michael, it's delightful to have you here. and you have, as i say, written now eight books on beethoven. so the question is , beethoven. so the question is, why beethoven? >> well, the word that is often used that i don't like is obsession obsessive because somehow there's something not quite right about that. the word that i quite right about that. the word thati use quite right about that. the word that i use is passion. i have a passion for this man's life and music that began, i suppose,

around 50 years ago, sometime in my early 20s. i can't remember the exact moment he kind of crept up on me and suddenly , as crept up on me and suddenly, as i was a journalist, tv journalist, all my life. but before that i was a failed musician. i wanted to be a professional musician, but fortunately for the world of music, i. i realised i didn't have the talent, but this man's music crept up on me and i knew from then that it would not go away, it would only increase. and that is what's happened . and that is what's happened. there are other composers i will listen to, minor names like mozart, wagner, haydn , but btec. mozart, wagner, haydn, but btec. beethoven just does it for me. >> you are jesting up to a point because you've written books about, i think, another 4 or 5. true composers. so you played the trombone early on? yes. and on? yes. and that of course, lends something the trombone early on? yes. and that of course, lends something to the book, which is your to the book, which is your musical understanding runs musical understanding runs through the book because, you through the book because, you know, every now and again you'll know, every now and again you'll talk about a sonata or you'll talk about a sonata or you'll

talk about a sonata or you'll talk about a sonata or you'll talk about a sonata or you'll talk about the eroica and you'll talk about a sonata or you'll talk about the eroica and you'll make points about what he's make points about what he's doing, what beethoven is doing doing, what beethoven is doing musically . yes. and how you musically . yes. and how you musically. yes. and how you react to it, or even in some musically. yes. and how you react to it, or even in some cases , that you heard it played cases , that you heard it played cases, that you heard it played in a particular way on a cases, that you heard it played in a particular way on a particular occasion. so you obviously have a very acute particular occasion. so you obviously have a very acute musical mind, which informs the musical mind, which informs the book. >> i, i was highly educated book. >> i, i was highly educated musically at school because i musically at school because i loved it to the extent that i loved it to the extent that i wanted to turn professional, but wanted to turn professional, but as i say, i didn't have the as i say, i didn't have the talent, but that has stayed with talent, but that has stayed with me. i read music, i understand me. i read music, i understand music, as you say. i play the music, as you say. i play the trombone in those days to quite trombone in those days to quite a high level, and the point a high level, and the point about beethoven, i think more about beethoven, i think more than any other composer, is his than any other composer, is his life is in his music. you can life is in his music. you can listen to a piece of beethoven listen to a piece of beethoven and it can be absolutely and it can be absolutely wonderful , wonderful , and it can be absolutely wonderful, even and it can be absolutely wonderful , even life wonderful, even life transforming. but if you know and it can be absolutely wonderful, even and it can be absolutely wonderful , even life wonderful, even life transforming. but if you know what's going on in his life when what's going on in his life when he writes it, you listen with he writes it, you listen with totally different ears and you totally different ears and you have a much deeper understanding of the music. his life, his

music is his autobiography, and

i said editor, my publisher, i said this to her. i find him a difficult man. she said, write about that. i said, i can't write about that. he's a genius. he there's nothing. she said, no, tell the truth . and that was no, tell the truth. and that was a bit of an eye opener. and so i have i haven't held back. he upset everyone he came into contact with, whether it was family , patrons, friends. he family, patrons, friends. he just upset. and the court case that he took out against his sister in law. as i say in the book, why ludwig? why did you do it ? it? >> and there's a case where a friend and a patron, a man who's been extremely generous to him, comes along and plays a little practical joke on him. yes. and that's the end of their relationship. >> absolutely. and this man, prince lichnowsky, paid him an anntu prince lichnowsky, paid him an annuity for several years purely out of the goodness of his heart, so that he wouldn't have to worry about money. but it came to a sudden and abrupt end because lichnowsky upset him. and that was the end of that . and that was the end of that. and that was the end of that. and lichnowsky said later, he used to climb the stairs to

beethoven's apartment, sit outside the front door , and outside the front door, and listen to this sublime genius play listen to this sublime genius play , and be grateful that play, and be grateful that i played a part in what he now does. and but beethoven would never let him through the front door again . door again. >> you were what i think you call a fireman journalist. you went. you went to the hotspots around the globe where there was trouble happening. and you talk about travelling to lebanon , i about travelling to lebanon, i think on a ship, and you're listening to the eroica on your. well, we've got a little tape machine, walkman, a walkman. was it so. so why, what did listening to beethoven do to you, beethoven, when you were in a stressful place? >> beethoven's music. and i used the eroica as an example, is uplifting , life affirming and uplifting, life affirming and inspirational. and you can start listening to the eroica. i know you know it well. i've heard it a few hundred thousand times. still, it takes me by surprise. how did he do that? why did he do that ? it's like reading a do that? it's like reading a novel. you don't know what twist is coming next. but at the end,

with that rush to the final chord, you . suddenly i was on chord, you. suddenly i was on this ferry steaming for beirut, capital city of a country in the grip of civil war, with the red glow of war in the night coming closer. and i played the eroica and suddenly, yes, i can do this. i can do this. and i've heard from other people when i've done beethoven talks, one elderly man came up to me and said to me once, beethoven saved my life twice and he walked away. >> you could do it because beethoven could do it in the sense that beethoven had to overcome deafness, which is an extraordinary thing, isn't it? >> yes . and i think there, >> yes. and i think there, michael, you've absolutely nailed it. beethoven's music is telling us if i, as a musician, can overcome the greatest disability that a musician can suffer, in other words, losing the one sense that should be more acute than any other, then you.by more acute than any other, then you. by listening to my music and understanding my story, can overcome whatever trouble faces

you. and i believe that is the ultimate message of his music. >> john, it's a great pleasure to talk to you today. you've lost none of your journalistic skill. you had us absolutely in the palm of your hand there, as you were describing your entry into lebanon. and let me just say again, the book is called in search of beethoven a personal journey by john suchet . thank journey by john suchet. thank you very much indeed for joining us today . and let me see. oh, us today. and let me see. oh, yes, after the interval, we're going to be talking about why young people are reading shorter novels rather than lengthy tomes like ulysses. but first we're going to have the news headlines with tatiana sanchez . with tatiana sanchez. >> michael, thank you very much . >> michael, thank you very much. the top stories from the gb newsroom. the king says he's greatly saddened by the sudden death of alex salmond, the former first minister of scotland. the alba leader died yesterday afternoon, aged 69, from a suspected heart attack

dunng from a suspected heart attack during a trip to north macedonia