the headline to be as bad as the headline writers predict? also be asking her, of course, about vat on private school fees and whether labour are going to abandon that controversial policy. we've got both tory leadership candidates in only a few days of voting to go in only a few days of voting to 90 by in only a few days of voting to go by the tory membership. that vote ends on halloween and then we'll get the winner next saturday. so i'll be speaking to kemi badenoch and robert jenrick, who, by the way, have had a little bit of a go against each other in today's sunday telegraph, so i'll be quizzing them both on that. also going to be speaking to reform's deputy leader, richard tice. he wants to have a go at the budget that he thinks is going to land britain and a lot of trouble on wednesday, and he wants to talk to us about that manchester airport attack. still no charges having been brought despite allegations that police officers were assaulted. and i'm going to be speaking to former tory party treasurer, lord farmer. he's got something to say about the early prisoner release scheme, and i think on this show is going to announce who he's backing for. tory leader. so as ever, we've

got 90 minutes of punchy politics ahead. don't go anywhere . anywhere. let's get stuck into the sunday papers now with my telegraph colleague madeline grant, who is a sketch writer for the newspaper, as well as a columnist, madeleine lovely to see you this morning. so the papers, brimming with warnings about what could be a new black wednesday. i mean, i don't know whether labour are just managing expectations here by saying it's going to be economic doom for taxpayers. and actually it's a bit better than that . but we've bit better than that. but we've got the sunday telegraph's headune got the sunday telegraph's headline businesses shut up, shop ahead of budget for growth. we've got the mail on sunday talking about starmer's double lie over 40 billion tax splits. this is about this confusion over what a working person is. tell us a bit more about what's been reported this morning. >> well, it's quite a mixed bag. it's an interesting as you say, there are some very, very doom.

and gloom headlines here. and it's not just the headline. i mean, the story in the sunday telegraph is talking about specific data that 1600 business owners are folding their businesses before the budget in anticipation of it. and that rate is much higher than it has been at other times of the year. so it does suggest that it is budget related. however, i've also seen in some other interviews, for example, in tim shipman's piece in the sunday times, that there also seems to be some effort by labour to counteract this narrative, to kind of put out there that it's not going to be as bad as people might think, you know, that actually there won't be these dramatic changes and so forth. so it seems like there's there has ever caught between their two forms of their comms strategy that firstly to say that the situation is much worse than we feared. and oh dear, this requires very tough action. 22 billion black holes, but also not so much that you spook the market , not so much that you spook the market, which already seems to be happening. i mean, the price of government debt has increased and that could have a dramatic effect on our ability to borrow and fund so much of labour's manifestos. >> exactly. it's kind of this

balancing act. i think what we do know, madeleine, because i see that the labour press office haven't briefed against the idea of national insurance contributions made by employers going up. i'm going to be quizzing bridget phillipson about that later, because that strikes me as a clear manifesto breach. they said they weren't going to put up national insurance. we can have a debate about what working people are , about what working people are, but that seems to me to be going back on a promise. absolutely. but there's also talk about capital gains tax rises. there's talk about perhaps some tweaks to inheritance tax. and they're saying that working people i think we had lisa nandy in the week describing a working person as a bus driver, but not someone that owns a small business, which strikes me as confused in its thinking. are we now going back to the days where a working person is someone who clocks in and out on, you know, like literally that old tv series clocking off in some kind of northern factory that isn't the definition of a working person these days. >> well, it's absolute sophistry, because many of the people, as you say, who they they define as not a working person, work extremely hard and

pay person, work extremely hard and pay an awful lot of tax and are probably feeling quite hard pressed already and are very concerned about what is to come and what that means for the state of wealth creation and job creation in britain. but i almost think that they made a mistake, which was when they said working people, they meant working class people, but they're too embarrassed to talk about class. it's an uncomfortable conversation. so by using that vague term, they've become essentially a victim of their own linguistic sophistry. precisely. >> they have. they're going to be caught up with their own sort of strange definitions, i feel. >> and it is a ridiculous i mean, the sight of the prime minister trying to justify himself a couple of days ago , i himself a couple of days ago, i mean, even people that would sympathise with raising taxes would look at that and say, this is so unclear, this is ludicrous. >> well, his father was a toolmaker. i don't know if you knew. so that is certainly a working person, even though he apparently did run the factory, that he made the tools probably not a working person. who knows? who knows? i'm confused. yes. now, this is a really quite chilling story. actually, the sunday times have caught up with the daughter of david amess. that's the tory mp that was killed in 2021 by a man called ali harbi ali and they've spoken

to his daughter katie. this is three years on from the attack, but it's made the quite remarkable and frankly, horrifying revelation that ali, the killer, was referred to the home office's prevent programme by a teacher in 2014. but the case was closed after just one meeting and the paper points out that he obviously spent the next years orchestrating and planning this lone wolf attack that cost david amess his life. yes, and it makes questions again. maddie, it's not the first time we've talked about prevent and whether it actually does prevent terrorism. >> no. absolutely not. and you know, there are many cases of criminals who've been overlooked and have gone on to commit some kind of terrible crime, be that irregular crime or even indeed a terrorist crime. this is not even an isolated incident. i think part of the issue is also that, you know, david amess was such a lovely man. he was much loved across the commons. but evenin loved across the commons. but even in the weeks that followed his murder , parliament really his murder, parliament really wanted to talk about people

saying nasty things online. there wasn't a proper discussion about the fact that this was an islamist terror attack. i feel like that was almost became a technicality. and i think perhaps we've become quite inured to these sorts of incidents. so when they happen, we forget about them and move on. yes. >> let's have a look at this story, because time is, as ever, running out on the sunday telegraph so i can see robert jenrick. he's just arrived and he's coming on after the break. so stay tuned for that. badenoch ihave so stay tuned for that. badenoch i have integrity to lead tories , i have integrity to lead tories, not jenrick. she's making the point. i mean we're in the end game of this whole race. she's making the point. oh well i never lost my job. she's referring to robert jenrick being sacked by boris johnson back in 2020 over this kind of controversy about allowing a housing development to go ahead. by housing development to go ahead. by richard desmond funnily enough, my former boss at the sunday express and it did land him in some hot water. i didn't know they were that. have the gloves come off. >> oh, i'm not sure that they were ever on really, really . i were ever on really, really. i mean, there's been a lot of

briefing from both sides in the press. it's quite obvious, or at least it looks very much like it's coming from these both camps. and it does make life quite difficult in the sense that there aren't all that many. there are. so few mps left that you kind of want all of your good people to be on the team when it comes to it. >> yes. i'm going to ask kemi whether she would have robert jenrick in her team. robert jenrick, in turn, has said he would like somebody like jacob rees—mogg, my would like somebody like jacob rees�