evenin even in prison he nevertheless, even in prison he was able to communicate with the manchester arena bomber and probably many others that we don't know about. so how effective are these measures? how do terrorists get get round them? how do they get access to technology when it's prevented by law? >> yeah, just by being sneaky basically. and, you know, getting others friends and family, perhaps to buy them a burner phone, that kind of thing. you know , some of them thing. you know, some of them will be on electronic tags , but will be on electronic tags, but if you're not on an electronic tag , you if you're not on an electronic tag, you might not be if you're not on an electronic tag , you might not be subject to tag, you might not be subject to the same type of very stringent requirements that some of the most at risk individuals are. i mean, the real difficulty is if you really are considered to be a genuine and significant and you know , very real threat to you know, very real threat to the public in terms of maybe going out and carrying out

another attack, then you would be placed under probably 24 hour surveillance, but that is very manpower intensive. you require significantly large teams of people to monitor these individuals around the clock, and there's only so many resources that the police and the security services who are already managing many, many live terrorist investigations, can devote to just looking after prisoners who have been released. >> it just seems so frustrating that we are creating more work than we need to for our police forces. as you say, the intense amount of energy and manpower that's needed to surveil someone outside of prison. i mean, it's not beyond the wit of man to sort of just slice through all of these problems that we create for ourselves as a society. if authorities genuinely believe this individual is at risk. i mean , yes, i know due process.

mean, yes, i know due process. yes, i know that the courts have determined a certain year, but i also know that parliament is sovereign. you could have a one line bill to lock this man away, but remember, it was parliament that or certain sections of parliament who a couple of decades or more ago decided that they wanted to do away with just such restriction regime that you're talking about control orders. >> that was in place. it was specifically designed to look after those individuals and deal with those individuals who had either been released from prison , either been released from prison, hadnt either been released from prison, hadn't been prosecuted because there wasn't yet enough evidence to put before the courts, but to ensure that they were the subject of some fairly severe restrictions on their their sort of freedoms, and that was deemed to be against their, their human rights. and then that was replaced by what they called tpms terrorism prevention

measures. but they were sort of a magnitude less in terms of the restrictions afforded. >> is part of this because we transpose the european human rights into our own domestic law in 1997, 1998. i mean, is that what really is rubbing up against a lot of these potential restrictions, or is it the european court of human rights? >> i mean, it's all of the above. i mean, our courts, you know, over the years, because of repeated cases and appeals that have gone through on behalf of terrorist prisoners , have terrorist prisoners, have adopted policy that makes it very difficult for very restrictive orders to be placed against individuals that might be seen to be infringing the human rights. i think the real concern here is , and we're concern here is, and we're talking we're not talking in the abstract. i think is what i'm trying to say here. there have been multiple cases of terrorists who have been

released from prison after serving their jail terms, who've gone on to offend, such as for instance, usman khan, who carried out that terrible terrorist attack at fishmongers hall on london bridge in 2019, then a few months after that, you had another terrorist , you had another terrorist, sudesh amman, who carried out a terrorist attack down in streatham in south london. those pictures are of london bridge . pictures are of london bridge. that's streatham now, where sudesh amman stabbed two people in the high street. he was going on to stab more, but he was shot dead by an armed surveillance team who were actually keeping him under 24 hour surveillance, because he'd been just released. and they did have intelligence and concerns that he might go on to reoffend. but even they, you know, with that proper 24 hour round the clock surveillance couldn't stop him just nipping into a store, stealing a knife,

running out onto the street and stabbing people . that's how stabbing people. that's how difficult it is to keep proper track of individuals who are determined enough to put their own life at risk to go and harm others. >> and mark, you said earlier on in the programme that this may become an increasing problem because the al—qaeda terrorists and the isis era terrorists who were imprisoned at the time are now coming up for release, and this will increasingly be of concern . but has sentencing of concern. but has sentencing of terrorists changed? because if people are locked up with indeterminate sentences, then the parole board can indeed recommend that they refuse to be released from prison and we can keep track of them. so has sentencing changed in response to some of these? >> well, sentencing has changed. and you're right to mention indeterminate sentences that were brought in under the last labour government precisely to deal with people who may have been convicted of a crime in itself that might not warrant a life sentence, but they know the authorities, that that individual is far more

dangerous, that it's one of multiple offences over a period of time that they've been convicted for. so they can instigate this indeterminate sentence, which means that they can hold on to them for much longer. however, that went through the human rights courts, and they deemed that as being an infringement of their human rights. so indeterminate sentences, although we've still got people in prison on those sentences and eventually they'll all be released . but no new all be released. but no new people go on these ipso they call them phased out. >> well, mark, do stay with us, but we're going to check in with our very latest headlines now with sophia wenzler. >> tom, miriam . thank you. good >> tom, miriam. thank you. good afternoon. >> these are your headlines from the gb newsroom making everything worse. >> that's the charge from conservative leader kemi badenoch accusing sir keir starmer of dodging the

chancellor's pledge not to raise taxes or borrow more in the future. in a fiery exchange at prime minister's questions, sir keir starmer hit back , saying keir starmer hit back, saying the leader of the opposition wanted all the benefits of the budget without explaining how she'd pay for it. >> two weeks ago she stood there and said that she wanted all the investment, all the benefits of the budget. >> but she didn't know how she was going to pay for it. >> i noticed that having come here criticising the national insurance rises over and over again on monday, she admitted that she wouldn't reverse the position that we set out and meanwhile her science minister was saying he was going energetically to do the opposite. they really haven't got a clue what they're doing . got a clue what they're doing. >> in response to roars from the labour benches, kemi badenoch suggested sir keir starmer should resign over what she described as labour's lies. >> if he wants to know what conservatives would do, he should resign and find out .

should resign and find out. until then, i'm the one asking the questions. there's a petition out there, 2 million people asking him to go. yes, he's the one who doesn't know he's the one who doesn't know how things work. it is not government that creates growth. mr speaker, it is business. >> in other news, roads and railways across the country have been hit by flooding and various stations evacuated as storm connell drenched southern england with up to half a month's rain in london, king's cross station was forced to shut due to overcrowding, with commuters describing absolute mayhem at the station. trains have also been unable to stop at platforms in euston underground station. more than 90 flood warnings are still in place across the uk , including a across the uk, including a severe alert for billing aquadrome in northamptonshire, where flooding poses a danger to life. now a man from bradford

has been arrested on suspicion of stalking and harassment after videos of women on nights out in manchester went viral. greater manchester went viral. greater manchester police say the footage shows women being followed, harassed and in some cases , subjected to. it's cases, subjected to. it's believed to be the first arrest in the uk linked to videos accessible behind paywalls on social media platforms. officers say the content has caused fear among women in the city, but extra patrols are in place to keep people safe over the festive season. police are urging anyone affected to contact them. israel for the second time since the ceasefire with hezbollah came into force, says its troops have 1514 00: