>> well. of turning the party into reform lite . and one of the biggest >> well. >> a very very good evening to you. it's monday the 10th of lite. and one of the biggest news stories of the day was this february and i'm martin daubney filling in for the big man nigel farmageddon mark three. the farmers have returned to farage on farage tonight. westminster. hundreds took to lights, camera. action. the the streets in their tractors to government has published videos continue protesting against the of raids on immigrants accused government's inheritance tax of raids on immigrants accused of working illegally in great raid, and half of generation z britain, and anger has erupted across the labour party, with think that britain is a racist some accusing the prime minister country, and only a 10th would of turning the party into reform risk their lives to defend it in lite . and one of the biggest a war. we took to the streets of lite. and one of the biggest london to do our own research. news stories of the day was this >> if britain was at war, would farmageddon mark three. the you go and fight for britain? farmers have returned to westminster. hundreds took to no, no. the streets in their tractors to >> this technically isn't my country. i'm not really wanted against the continue protesting against the government's inheritance tax here. >> what a surprise. they don't raid, and half of generation z have any faith in britain. i wonder why that is. we'll find think that britain is a racist out next. all that to come. but country, and only a 10th would first, there's your news risk their lives to defend it in headunes first, there's your news headlines with tatiana sanchez. a war. we took to the out, >> martin, thank you. and good evening. the top stories, images of illegal migrants and foreign 00:01:00,430 --> 4294966103:13:29,429 offenders being deported from

government has been setting out, we have to make sure rules are respected and enforced. >> chancellor rachel reeves has faced calls for meaningful tweaks to planned inheritance tax on farmland from labour backbenchers. farmers from across the country descended in westminster today in protest against the government's family farm tax. that rally, organised by the save british farming, comes as a petition calling to keep current inheritance tax the qr code or go to gbne'current�*alerts. exemptions for working farms has the qr code or go to gbne'current inheritance keep current inheritance tax exemptions for working farms has reached almost 150,000 reached almost 150,000 signatures. labour has signatures. labour has previously insisted it will not previously insisted it will not make a u—turn on its inheritance make a u—turn on its inheritance tax plans, saying that farmers tax plans, saying that farmers

are the backbone of britain. a are the backbone of britain. a second labour mp has been second labour mp has been suspended from the party for suspended from the party for comments made in a whatsapp comments made in a whatsapp group that saw a minister lose group that saw a minister lose his job. group that saw a minister lose his job. group that saw a minister lose hisjob. burnley group that saw a minister lose his job. burnley mp oliver ryan hisjob. burnley group that saw a minister lose his job. burnley mp oliver ryan has been suspended by labour has been suspended by labour over his membership of the over his membership of the whatsapp group, containing whatsapp group, containing offensive comments. mr ryan has offensive comments. mr ryan has apologised for unacceptable and apologised for unacceptable and deeply disappointing comments. deeply disappointing comments. ashley dalton, labour mp for ashley dalton, labour mp for west lancashire, has been west lancashire, has been appointed as a minister in the appointed as a minister in the department of health and social department of health and social care after andrew gwynne was care after andrew gwynne was sacked over the weekend. he was sacked over the weekend. he was also found to be a part of that also found to be a part of that whatsapp group, and us president gbnews.com/alerts. whatsapp group, and us president donald trump is set to impose donald trump is set to impose 25% tariffs on all steel and 25% tariffs on all steel and aluminium imports into the us. aluminium imports into the us. steelmakers in asia have warned steelmakers in asia have warned the tariffs will impact the tariffs will impact profitability and volumes of profitability and volumes of steel. it's unclear whether president trump will make any exemptions on tariffs. labour minister dame angela eagle said earlier this morning it's in the best interests of both the uk and the us that the two countries carry on with their balanced trade, and those are

the latest headlines for now. more from me in an hour. >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to

frogmarching donald trump? frogmarching people onto planes was only was only like a couple of years ago. sir keir starmer, diane abbott, jeremy corbyn, dawn butler, whole host of labour luminaries signed a letter to stop rapists being deported to jamaica. how can they suddenly changed their tune? >>i tune? >> i find it terrifying in a world of trump's and dare i say it, with the big man missing farage is that they are allowing the tail to wag the head of the dog in this way. it's happened before. we talk all the time at the moment of, you know, is reform going to overtake the mainstream parties? frankly, it doesn't matter. well, it has, because reform first of all, in

its ukip form, with farage once again at the helm, managed to dictate brexit for us insofar as that referendum would have never happened had it not been for the power of farage outside the parliamentary system. and now take two, this time against the migrant and i for one, there are huge numbers of things we could do. >> legal workers aren't migrants. >> there's a huge. >> there's a huge. >> number of clampdown on illegal workers. don't confuse that with asylum seekers, those who come here legally and peacefully. but these are illegal. they've got no right to be here. >> but there's a huge narrative, isn't there, around migration being out of control and actually where it impacts on the population, i.e. 650 net migrants coming into the country. you can restructure the economy. you can make your university system less dependent on foreign money, all sorts of deeply unsexy things that don't catch the headlines. so instead they are chasing the voters know, chasing criminal chasing voters who are probably watching right now, who tend towards reform. they're not really criminals. they're vulnerable people at my local car wash. incidentally, have you had your

car done over it very nicely? yeah. you know, nicely done for £15. >> lot of people have done. >> lot of people have done. >> over, but nicely done at the local car wash or your nails done for cheap and taken the money and said thank you very much. and at the same time it's those cheap services that are being targeted and the most vulnerable people who work in those places. >> go amy dowden. >> go amy dowden. >> it's always lovely to hear that somebody's concerned that they're not going to get cheap nail job. they're not going to get cheap nailjob. i'm sorry, that they're not going to get cheap nail job. i'm sorry, that is not acceptable. you're talking about people like that. i'm sorry. it's not acceptable. it's not good enough. and the fact is, is we have. and you say if the if immigration was under not under control. out of control over a million people last year, that's out of control in a country the size we are. it has an impact on so many things, on housing costs, on employment, also safety, security. if you think of the amount of people working, for example, in the food delivery business, at least according to police reports, at least half of those that they stop for basic traffic offences are illegal migrants. they should not be here. end of story period. there is no reason, no justification. none whatsoever. legal migrants, refugees. then

they have. there is an argument. but for these people, they aren't that. and they they have no working rights. well, there's a reason for that. but they can be exploited. they shouldn't be here to be exploited. end of story. >> one of the big problems with the current migration system as it stands is there are very few safe passages we make. >> yet a million people arrived legally. how can there be no safe way in which a million people arrive safely? >> no, no, but we're talking about refugees. you said it's okay. you can be a refugee. no, but the point being is those sitting in calais often are from very vulnerable circumstances. war in the likes of syria. >> is a. >> is a. >> safe country and. >> safe country and. >> france is a safe country. >> france is a safe country. >> but at the same time, we allow people in from ukraine, for example, or from hong kong. >> because in. >> because in. >> the. >> the. >> case of the hong kong, we had a duty. they held british passports, for goodness sake. >> we went to war in iraq and afghanistan, and it was very hard to get in from. >> australia and from afghanistan. we'd never turn them down. guys. >> guys, it's worth pointing out we had a visa scheme specifically to deal with these individual crises of hong kong, of ukraine and afghanistan,

which we honoured. in fact, the uk pulled above and beyond its weight when compared to other european union member states, particularly with hong kong and afghanistan. not not. >> not ukraine. actually, in certain cases, we've let down the afghans and the. >> precious few. to be honest, the fact over 90% of those people from there, the. >> fact of the. >> fact of the. >> matter in pakistan waiting for their cases to be served. >> we can't we can't all shout over each other. this the fact of the matter is you all talk about safe passages. we already have safe passages. i've just pointed out three of them. this. no, we have three clear, safe passages. people coming from france or coming from a safe country. you may say they've come from a country that isn't safe, but they've travelled through multiple safe nations. first, they've paid a lot of money to be here. they've made a choice to be here. and if they come here illegally, they should be deported. you can't conflate that with people who are welcomed by a refugee scheme. >> what's interesting is that the vast majority of those who arrive in small boats, and prior to that, it was lorries are granted once they've been processed, after the enormous and expensive lag time are

granted asylum. >> they are granted asylum. my point is, whereas on the continent, in france it's 50%, here it's over 80% of those. granted, why are we such a soft touch? >> but i think broadly. >> but i think broadly. >> it's not good for the people of this. >> country are trying to say we're not, but it's just really disappointing when there are clearly structural issues in our economy that demand. we need to import net 650,000 migrants to our economy. >> what you're talking about is a structural issue. it's things like minimum wage. these people are working under the minimum wage. should you say, therefore, that there should be no minimum wage relative to that, is there to protect british citizens? >> but relative to the british numbers of migrants who come in legally, this is a very small number that come in illegally. it's like trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. >> can we just clear it? >> can we just clear it? >> what depresses me about the labour party is that they feel the need to be almost toxic in the need to be almost toxic in the way in which not only are they doing this, but they're parading this state, bullying in front. >> of us. deeply uncomfortable. and here i agree with you. >> but the. >> but the. >> trouble with the. >> trouble with the.

>> trouble with that argument is that actually, the vast majority of all voters think we've got a problem with immigration numbers. it's not toxic. it's not far right. it's actually like two thirds of labour voters think we have too high an immigration figure. and that's. >> the fact. and i agree with you. but why can't we say our universities depend too much on the money from overseas, from foreign students muscling out places, but instead we do these nasty little videos against the most vulnerable, the toothless man who loyally serves in my local service station. i would never turn him over. i know he's sending his money back to his son in a in a vulnerable country, but the point is, he's he's not like mr muscular criminal out to get the brits. he's not the problem. >> and yet people who have arrived here as illegal migrants have committed murder, have committed rape some. well, yeah, but they shouldn't be here in the first place. tell that to the first place. tell that to the victims. tell that to the family of the person who was murdered in bournemouth by an illegal migrant and say, oh, well, it doesn't really matter because you're small statistic that's not on. but i do come back.i that's not on. but i do come back. i agree with you on the

videos and the films. do you remember when theresa may had her racist go home trucks that went round horrible? that was not. the point is they are trying to out reform reform look look look look at us, look at us, look at us. reform doesn't want to behave like that. we wouldn't. yes, we want to remove illegal migrants. yes, but we wouldn't parade them like some sort of punishment. video. there is something deeply unpleasant and deeply un—english about doing it like that. and i would agree with you there's something that sticks in the craw. >> but it is. i'm glad you agree. >> on that. >> on that. >> but today's video was on that today. today's video was 47 individuals, almost entirely men, by the way, being taken onto a flight because they were foreign national offenders who had broken the law. and presumably they'd already been here. presumably they've already broken the law, and the legal threshold to be deported is pretty high. i think you have to have served two years. >> we haven't had this time a group of people on the plane saying, stop the plane, stop the plane. when they did that a few years ago, and that person who was being deported was the plane stopped and he was taken back on. he went on to re—offend. >> was that the one that was

going to rwanda? because these are going back? >> no, he was going back to jamaica. he was going back to the caribbean. well, he went on to reoffend. >> it was destined for somewhere, i believe, in eastern europe, probably albania. >> that was one of the individuals on that flight that the labour luminaires tried to ground was a was a jamaican who was a drug dealer who came back to britain thanks the labour party blocking that flight, who went on to stab somebody to death in west london. he went on to murder on british soil because the labour party had kept him here. this is quite a different labour party today though, tessa, back to the original point. and that is they are not responding to extremism. they're responding to the fact that 98 seats, at least labour party mps, are dead in the water unless they do something about clamping down on immigration. >> this is clickbait, though. this is revolting, lo fi clickbait. we are at least four years plus away from an election. i want to see the labour party deal with structural issues in our economy. so every time you walk into the supermarket, you don't feel like being slapped in the face because the cost of food is so high and somebody's running away with half the food under his arm, having not paid for it.

these are crises in our system where people can't get social care. actually, the border. >> is. >> is. >> a crisis. >> a crisis. >> partly because every day you are telling me it's a crisis. every day i don't go out there thinking, oh my goodness, that illegal immigrant. >> in my. >> in my. >> service station is ruining my life. how much does it. >> affect you? how much does it cost that affects ordinary people? they are affected by this. you and i aren't, but the vast majority of this country feel that they are. and they see it. they see it on a daily, but they also see it on a daily basis. they see people. they see people gathered, gathered outside schools. they see things of this sort. that's what's happening out there. and it's all very well for us in our comfortable, comfortable lives to dismiss these people. but they see it in a way that you and i probably don't. >> i believe we're whipping up fear unnecessarily. >> is it is it unnecessary to be fearful when you have a group of young illegal migrants standing outside a school? >> because the truth is, the government doesn't know how to deal with the structural issues in. >> our country. are you saying it's unreasonable to be frightened? >> i haven't seen those people outside. >> okay, guys, let's let's leave it there. it is worth pointing

out there are at least 1.5 million people working illegally in britain. these are facts. and we know there are 9000 foreigners in british jails for serious offences. these are facts. people have a right to be concerned about that. and the labour party seems to have finally woken up. i don't think that's toxic. i think it's necessary. otherwise they're going to be facing electoral oblivion. we've got to leave it there. let's move on now. the latest voting intention polls put in reform in the lead could aid tory reform pact, become an unstoppable force at the next general election. well, nigel farage us us all a stark that earlier on today.

welcome back to farage with me. martin daubney standing in for the big man now, the usual presenter of this show. of course, nigel farage has been out with farmers today as they took to the streets of westminster for more than three to protest against new inheritance tax rules from the labour party. now hundreds of tractors descended on the

capital just hours before mps were due to debate. the petition, calling for current tax exemptions for working farms to remain in place. still, labour has insisted it will not make a u—turn on its plan to introduce that 20% inheritance tax rate on farms more than worth more than £1 million. now, i'd like to say i'm joined in the studio by justin rogers. he's the head of farmers to action, the organisers behind today's farmers protest, as well as my panel. and that's still joined by gwen taylor, the former spokesman for reform uk, and doctor tessa dunlop, the historian and broadcaster. justin, let's start with you. the third time now, there's been a peaceful turnout. a very handsome turnout has to be said tractors all the way from whitehall to trafalgar square and beyond. the problem is, are the politicians listening to you? like, for example, sir keir starmer and angela rayner, they cleared off to cornwall with the king. >> if we only knew that we might not have been here, but we didn't get that information

until now. so it is what it is. but the point is, the biggest part of this is unity. there's farmers that have come down from across the whole of the united kingdom, uniting together, that this is a force of positivity going forward, that we, we, we are looking for change of our industry in a big way. it has brought us all together. it is the hot topic that we've got to sort out. the military have also unkedin sort out. the military have also linked in now and, you know, we brought tanks and veterans along with with that to be with us. >> just to clarify for our viewers and listeners at home, iht, of course, is inheritance tax. that's what this is about. the increased taxation on farm, particularly small holdings for many farmers that we spoke to today throughout the course of the show and indeed the past few weeks, since november the 19th, i think the first protest was of saying this is going to be the death of small holdings. but back to my original point. the

labour party just seems to be, pardon the pun, digging in, ploughing the same old furrow, which makes me sort of say three peaceful protests. yeah. what next? is it time to go a bit more? i don't know, shoo lee john about it. >> well, we know that a lot. the first part is getting organised. the first part is getting unity. the first part is getting unity. the first, the second or the third part i missed the second part. the third part is having the numbers to make the difference. i think we're there now and there is hunger for something else, but we've got to make sure we do this the right way. farmers have got to go to work the next day. we've got to be intelligent about this. we've got to be literally, logistically perfect and have the right campaign sentiment to match what we're doing. so that will give a bigger impact than just going random and doing whatever we feel like it. >> public support remains high. the big supermarkets have come out and backed the farmers and i think was it was it you lads who

put the not a blockade, but you had a show of force. >> around a peaceful protest. >> around a peaceful protest. >> a. >> a. >> peaceful protest around this was the morrisons depot. >> was it? it was, it was, it was a peaceful demonstration. >> and they came out in. >> and they came out in. >> support of you by a group. yes, it was. and they came out in support and we thank them for that. and in the back of that supermarkets, one after another came in support of us. and that's brilliant and fantastic. you know, that is that is hitting home pretty hard now with supermarkets and batting things back and forth with the government. so that job's done for the moment. the next job, next job, looking at the next logistical point of pain or pinch point that we can utilise. >> well, the pinch point in the 1990s, remember when tony blair was riding high was a blockade on food distribution centres, teamed up with lorry drivers, with distribution centres, with fuel depots, a 25 percentile

plummet in in popularity for even tony blair. back in the day, it got a bit friskier. the pubuc day, it got a bit friskier. the public still backed the farmers. i hate to push you on this, but three peaceful days and the prime minister clears off to cornwall. is it time to think about something a bit fruitier? >> i appreciate what you're saying. a big part of this is we are doing this on not on behalf of just ourselves, but our population. this country has been divided for a very long time, and we want to do things not just for ourselves but for everyone. and if anyone goes and looks up our list of our demands, that they can see what we're representing, like getting rid of iht for everyone, you know, no one deserves to have to pay a know, no one deserves to have to pay a tax on death of a loved one. that's something that we hold dear to ourselves. but going to the next step? yes, something's got to happen. unfortunately, from the protest back then, the rules have been changed, which means we've got to be better, if that makes sense. yeah, because as i said,

farmers have still got to go to work the next day. there's a lot of farmers out there that aren't sure everyone's telling us, and being briefing people in a bad way against us when we've been doing everything to the letter of the law and doing things the right way. >> okay, justin, we'll leave it there for now. i'll bring in my panel there for now. i'll bring in my panel. and in fact, that point, nigel farage did say today that we will he meant reform reform will end inheritance tax end of not just on farmers bringing my panel not just on farmers bringing my panel. now start with you doctor tessa dunlop who could not want to back the farmers, particularly the smallholders out there who feel that multi—generational farms have been split up by a government. >> just to disclose my hand. my father was a factor, so we lived in a tight house all my life. we worked for a lead and dad was at the top of the food chain of employees. everyone beneath him, therefore was paid less than him. all of them got their house or their accommodation when they worked on the farm. but then once you were 65, you'd been a manual worker all your life. you hadnt manual worker all your life. you hadn't earned enough money. where did you live? where did you go? so the idea that these are poor farmers, all of them,

you know, just managing on their own in a smallholding, it isn't true. we're actually talking about large businesses which are able to hog land and property for as far as the eye can see in large swathes of scotland, the farmers agree. >> that. >> that. >> those people should be providing balance. >> but i think the farmers agree. am i not right in saying that those people should be targeted means tested, but at the moment it's a blunderbuss that gets even the smallholders. >> so is your issue the threshold because you've just said you don't want any inheritance tax? because i think actually people like the said adam, he's a very decent, decent man in his own way. but why should he own 42 properties and 40,000 acres without. >> you want to target? if you want to target those at the top echelon, find another way. an inheritance tax or a death tax is the wrong way to do it for all. everyone it is. >> it is not for all. it's only for those people who own. excessive numbers. >> just what justin is saying is inheritance tax in itself is immoral, is wrong. >> it's immoral. >> it's immoral. >> not just on on farmers, on

anybody. >> but the problem is what it does. >> is it paid tax on that once it's taxing again. >> but it's a very tiny percentage of the population that actually have to pay inheritance tax. you get away with about £1 million under the wire once you've got his and hers and property combined, there's about £1 million worth of assets that don't get taxed. so what you're talking about is protecting those people with wealth over £1 million. that's about. >> those people. those people, by and large, because of because of because of better accountancy than the rest of us can afford. those people, by and large, avoid much of that tax anyhow. and that's legal and reasonable. >> but given that those under a million could aren't going to be taxed and those over a. >> million, they are , they are >> million, they are, they are impacts on people. >> if you want to tax someone's higher wealth estate, find another way. taxing someone on death is morally wrong. >> and it's fair to point out that the united kingdom is something of an outlier when it comes to inheritance tax across continental europe, and particularly in even liberal societies such as australia and new zealand, a lot of countries don't have a death tax. and you're right, a small

percentage. but but increasingly a lot of asset rich people without a lot of money, like pensioners particularly, who live in london or the home counties, find their houses. >> british pensioners. >> british pensioners. >> don't don't complain. >> don't don't complain. >> much. but equally don't say that everybody's rich. who it doesn't. you're basically saying, i don't like rich people, i just want to tax. i'm not. saying i. don't like they should. they should take hits left, right and centre. they're paying left, right and centre. they're paying higher taxes on their income already. they then pay. and then when they invest that income in a house, they then pay and maybe pass it on when they die. they're paying extra taxes on that. you've got capital gains tax, you've got a whole series of taxes. but i think one, going back to the today's event, one of the things i thought was very interesting and you talk about unite and all the rest of it. the last two events, it was all about inheritance tax. no farmers, no food, all the banners, all the posters, all the tractors. same stuff with farmer, farmer and things of this sort. this time i noficed of this sort. this time i noticed stuff on the tractors talking about winter fuel allowance. i noticed stuff talking about net zero. and what you're starting to see is the farmers are uniting with other people who are having a horrid,

torrid time from this government. and if i was, if i was starmer, if i was reeves, i could frankly, i could ignore the farmers. there's only a few of you, however, if that starts to grow into a unified group of people, all of whom feel that they've been crushed by this government, then if i were starmer, i'd be very worried. >> i would like to ask justin very quickly, because i don't believe they're going to make all the evidence shows. they're not going to make much money out of this levy, this inheritance tax levy. i think it's about control. they will give you money back if they can control environmentally how you manage your farms, but just that they want to control you. >> i think they want to control all of us. i don't think it's just us. i think it's everyone. and i think that the agriculture community is the last ones that can make a serious stand. they put all sorts of implications on truckers to stop them protesting with, we're the last ones that can't really be, you know, we haven't toed the line completely yet, and we've identified that we make up only there's only

213,000 farms, i think approximately in the uk, which is 0.06 or 7% of our population. right. we need help, which means we need to not just represent ourselves, we need to represent ourselves, we need to represent our country. and if the people, the public understand that we know how much we're paid and we know how much we're paid and we know how much we're paid and we know how you guys are being paid, or you guys at the shop are paying 200 to 300% more for your food than we're getting. that percentage is getting lost in an industry somewhere. we're suffering. you and the whole pubuc suffering. you and the whole public are suffering. so the only way we can battle this and change is we all work together, and we've put our arms out to the military. >> and the veterans. >> and the veterans. >> yeah. the veterans. we're willing to work with them. we're willing to work with them. we're willing to work with them. we're willing to help the general public. we need our farms and our livelihoods saved because everyone says, oh, farmers got lots of money. it's only valuable if you want to sell it.

okay. we're no more than custodians and we want to pass it along. you can't sell two. >> wheels of a tractor. >> wheels of a tractor. >> you have to leave it there, gentlemen. fascinating stuff. is the farming movement sweeping in other movements to become bigger in of itself? fantastic stuff. thank you very much, justin. now, the previously issued joint statement from the chancellor, rachel reeves, and the environment secretary, steve reed. they say this farmers are the backbone of britain and we recognise the strength of feeling expressed by farming and rural communities in recent weeks. we are steadfast in our commitments to britain's farming industry because food security is national security and it's why we are investing £5 billion into farming over the next two years. but with public services crumbling and a £22 billion fiscal hole that this government inherited, we have taken difficult decisions. there it goes. thank you very much to my panel goes. thank you very much to my panel. thanks to justin rogers, co—founder of farmers two action. thank you very much to all of you. now, coming up next, half of generation z think that britain is a racist country and

only a 10th would risk their lives to defend it in a war. we took to the streets to do a bit of our own research, and that's next. >> can't wait to get in that sea. >> lovely and warm. >> lovely and warm. >> just like the feeling of having great travel insurance. >> allclear travel insurance sponsors gb news travel destinations , forecast. destinations, forecast. >> the weather and the mediterranean. this week is looking a bit mixed. we do have some showers lingering, particularly around the adriatic at the moment. parts of italy and france as well. thunderstorms recently across malta and sicily should be clearing off a little bit. generally, there's some brighter skies for parts of southern spain, though we do have this rain band pushing into areas of portugal as well. once that system does clear, though, it's generally expected to turn a touch brighter for western areas, though still rather changeable. further towards the east. >> allclear travel sponsoi's sponsors gb news travel.

>>i >> i know his name is. >> i know his name is. >> welcome back to farage with me martin daubney. now, over the weekend, insiders close to reform leader nigel farage stated that mr farage would be willing to collaborate with former prime minister boris johnson in the national interest to defeat labour in the upcoming election. well, earlier on today, mr farage shut down those rumours with this pointed statement. take a listen. >> look, you know, to do a pac with people, you've got to think i'm going to shake your hand and you are an honourable person. after the betrayal post the 2019 election, we do not believe them to be honourable. simple as that. so the answer is no. >> let's get back to my panel. now. i'm joined by doctor tessa dunlop and also gawain towler. let's start with you, gawain. this is in your in your ballpark, as it were. seems to me that these conversations around pacs hove into view normally when the tories are in very choppy water. is this any

different this time around? >> not in the slightest. i mean, people talk about reform having an electoral ceiling. the experts say the ceiling is 20%, 25%, 30%, whatever. in the last couple of weeks, we have seen the tories dip to 18% below 20. what is their floor? this is the question i want to know what is the tories floor? and the tories can see that and they can see the polling. every single pollster now has put reform ahead of them. and so in desperation you're hearing comments from senior tories saying we must have a pact, we must have it soon. but what about the reason they want it soon is so they can kill off reform rather than not compete with them. >> what about a pact where there isn't really a pact where you can pretend it's not a pact, but it is a pact. >> i can't believe it's not pact. >> yeah, exactly. the sort of pact, for example, that sir keir starmer did with ed davey. you pretend you're not. you're not in bed together. you don't campaign there. >> we don't campaign. that being something real, i really can't. and look, if you want to represent the country in, say, a 400m, in order to represent the

country, you first go to the national trials and you try and defeat every other brit to get into that team in order to represent the country. well. we're in the national trials process at present, and reform has every intention of beating the tories across the country, so there's no positive reason for reform to get involved. now, of course, if we are in the situation post the general election where we have a labour have come in through the middle because you've had some sort of split on the centre right, then there is the there will possibly th