former justice secretary up, former justice secretary david gauke, who is leading labour's sensing review, has made front page news after claiming that the tough on crime policies have left prisons in crisis. he joins me in a moment. meanwhile, shadow defence minister mark francois will be joining me as a question of deploying british troops in ukraine divides the country. and energy bills are going up, i'm afraid, by as much as £100 a yeah afraid, by as much as £100 a year. despite labour's promise to cut them. so is labour's plan for green energy failing.7 plus, the reform party widens its lead in the polls. i'll be joined by the south african businessman rob hersov, who's thrown his backing behind nigel farage as he becomes a party donor to reform uk. state of the nation starts right now.

i'm also joined by my superstar panel i'm also joined by my superstar panel, former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie and former labour party special adviser matthew lhasa. as ever, let me know what you think of the show and of life in general. via gbnews.com/yoursay. now it's time for the news bulletins with katie bowen. >> christopher, thank you and good evening. it's 8:01. these are your top stories from the bebe newsroom. france is set to convene a second meeting on ukraine tomorrow, with european nafions ukraine tomorrow, with european nations who weren't present at talks yesterday. nato ally canada has also been invited, according to diplomatic sources. that comes as us secretary of state marco rubio and russia's foreign minister, sergei lavrov, have agreed to appoint high level teams to begin working on a path to end russia's war in

ukraine as soon as possible. a kremlin delegate says the us and russia had a positive, constructive four hour meeting in saudi arabia about the war. lavrov added that the deployment of nato troops in ukraine is unacceptable for russia. and speaking this afternoon, president zelenskyy of ukraine has reiterated that negotiations should not take place behind ukraine's back and has delayed his visit to saudi arabia to not give legitimacy to the us russia meeting in riyadh, it is understood. it comes as sir keir starmer said at a meeting with european leaders in paris that any ukraine peace deal would require a us backstop to deter russia from attacking ukraine again. home secretary yvette cooper discussed the situation this afternoon. >> well, we need a lasting peace for ukraine that safeguards the sovereignty of ukraine. the prime minister has met with his european counterparts and will be meeting president trump shortly as well. clearly, there

can be no negotiations about ukraine without ukraine. and there's a huge amount of work to be done. as the prime minister has said, this is an early stage in the process. >> a brief breaking update from the vatican. pope francis has shown the onset of bilateral pneumonia, and his respiratory infection continues to present a complex picture, the vatican said. a short time ago. the 88 year old pontiff has been suffering from a respiratory infection for more than a week and was admitted to rome's gemelli hospital on friday. the vatican said in a statement that laboratory tests, chest x—rays and the clinical conditions of the holy father continue to present a complex picture, but that he remains in a good mood. we'll bring you more on that story as we get it. kemi badenoch and the government have responded to criticism from the lady chief justice today, with the conservative party leader saying that politicians must be able to discuss matters of pubuc able to discuss matters of public importance in parliament.

a government spokesman also said that the prime minister has made clear that it is for parliament to make the laws and for the government to decide policy. the response has come after the head of the head of the judiciary in england and wales said today that she is deeply troubled by an exchange at the latest prime minister's questions between sir keir starmer and kemi badenoch about an immigration tribunal decision. during the exchange, the prime minister said a decision allowing a palestinian family the right to remain in the uk after they applied through a scheme designed for ukrainian refugees, was wrong and that home secretary yvette cooper had got her team working on closing this loophole. kemi badenoch raised the case, describing the decision as completely wrong. the chief lady chief justice, baroness carr, said it's for the government visibly to respect and protect the independence of the judiciary. >> she's right. >> she's right. >> and some brief breaking news this evening. rick butler, who came to prominence as the drummer for the jam, died on the

17th of february at the age of 69, just weeks after the musician was forced to cancel his tour due to ongoing health issues. his bandmate paul weller has just tweeted that news. we'll bring you more on that story as we get it. those are the latest gb news headlines for now. let's go back to christopher. >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone. sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com/poll. >> malcolm grimston. >> malcolm grimston. >> welcome back to state of the nafion >> welcome back to state of the nation with me christopher hope. now, a new report from the independent sensing review highlights how successive uk governments tough on crime policies have contributed to a rising prison population, leading to overcrowding and the early release of thousands of inmates last year. now the review, led by the former

conservative justice secretary david gauke, criticised the knee jerk decision to impose longer sentences without evidence that it that it reduces re—offending. but could this be a prelude to more early releases that we've been seeing from this government since it took office? i'm joined now by the man himself, the author of that report, the interim report, the former conservative justice secretary it's indirect, if you like. what david gauke. david, welcome to we've seen cjustice last 30 it's indirect, if you like. what we've seen cjustice secretary conservative justice secretary david gauke. david, welcome to state of the nation. great to state of the nation. great to see you again. good evening. is see you again. good evening. is being tough on crime wrong? being tough on crime wrong? >> i think it's right that we >> i think it's right that we are really focused on reducing are really focused on reducing crime. the challenge is that a crime. the challenge is that a policy of increasing sentences policy of increasing sentences isn't necessarily the right way isn't necessarily the right way to reduce crime for, for a to reduce crime for, for a couple of reasons. one, there couple of reasons. one, there are some cases, particularly if are some cases, particularly if we're looking at short sentences we're looking at short sentences where a short time in prison where a short time in prison will result in a higher will result in a higher reoffending rate than being reoffending rate than being released and having a community released and having a community sentence. the second point is sentence. the second point is it's indirect, if you like. what it's indirect, if you like. what

we've seen over the last 30 we've seen over the last 30 years is a huge increase in the prison population. it's essentially doubled over that time period. and that is not cheap. the average cost for a prison place is £51,000 a year. the government has committed to spend £10 billion on building more prisons. and the

spend £10 billion on building mo i prisons. and the spend £10 billion on building mo i accepts. and the spend £10 billion on building mo i accept that d the spend £10 billion on building mo i accept that long sentences >> i accept that long sentences tend to be popular, but i think the most important thing for the electorate is doing everything we possibly can to reduce crime. and that, i think, does have to be the focus. and what we've seen, and you mentioned a moment or so ago that we've seen early releases. the truth is, the government had no choice but to do that because we were about to run out of capacity. and on current projections, we're going to run out of capacity again. and i don't think we want to see emergency releases. what you have to do is ensure that your sentencing policy is consistent with your prison capacity, and ensure that we spend money as effectively as possible to ensure that people don't commit further crimes. and the public really wants to see those crimes come down. we want to see lower levels of crime, we want to see fewer victims. and actually, there are better ways in which

we can spend resources than just endlessly building more prison places. >> so it's about educating voters that you can't lock everyone up all the time for long, long, long periods. i mean, but you must have you must have met victims of crime in your time in politics. >> of course. >> of course. >> and so what would you say to them? because those are the people, i think, who would be in the papers as soon as you start releasing or not locking up rapists, murderers and the like for as long as they should be locked up in the past. they'll be saying, well, why are you soft on crime to labour? soft on crim