kongets versy, opinion, your point of view. this is "prime news." welcome, this is "prime news." i'm mike galanos. first up, heinous details. unbelievable, unthinkable crime. a 5-year-old boy drowned in a bathtub allegedly at the hands of his own grandmother. cops say she didn't want to see him grow up in a divorced home. that's the quote. p 1-year-old marian bort charged with first degree murder. she's from germany. her daughter lives in georgia. grandma and grandpa been on vacation with the boy. this is at st. george island. the grandfather told police he returned from shopping monday, found grandma dripping wet and

the boy halfway in the tub, his head underwater. how devastating. take your calls. 1-877-tell-hln is the number. joining us to talk about this, wendy walsh, clinical psychologist. more of wendy's thoughts can be found at her website momlogic.com. and also mike lucich and the city editor for "the apalachicola times" covering this. david, what details do we have here? little camden you think on the vacation with grandma and grandpa and then things just take a tragic turn, right? >> yes. the father came home after a shopping trip in apalachicola. came back to the island and discovered his wife coming back from the beach soaking wet and she had -- she told him that she had killed the boy. he tried -- he ran to the nearby fire station and -- with her and ran in and said, she killed my

grandson, arrest her, take her, take her, in his broken english. the fire department people rushed back to the house and it had been too long. the boy was dead. >> let's listen -- you mentioned that chief jay abbott, st. george island fire department, just talking about his reaction, just how awful it was. let's listen to that. >> it was sick. you know, 5-year-old. it's just -- i have four grandkids, 6 years old and younger. and to see something like that was just awful. >> again, it's awful. it's unthinkable. let's bring in wendy walsh. wendy, how does a grandmother take the life of her own 5-year-old grandson? >> well, clearly, mike, she had some kind of psychotic break. and to pay attention to her

rationalizations of she didn't want to see him grow up in a divorced family is probably silly right now, because she doesn't know what she's thinking. she doesn't know what she's doing. i'd like to know about this woman's psychological history, any history of mental illness in her family, with herself, what led up to this. it seems like to have this happen all of a sudden without any warning signs is pretty surprising. tragic all the way around for a 71-year-old woman. >> yeah. it is unthinkable. so difficult. well, let's talk about that. david, as you covered this story, have you talked to anybody? did anybody -- was she that upset about the divorce -- talking about grandma here? did anybody see any signs leading up to this? >> well, one, she doesn't speak english. there was translator by speakerphone at the hearing. so nobody locally has really spoken to her most of the people in town are shocked and who a horrified. and their first reaction before they knew the details was, oh,

gee, you can't leave the kid unattended, the grandmother might not have been watching. but once it's come out, they've been horrified. but she said little. she said little in court yesterday. and did have a lengthy conversation on the phone with the translator. of course, that wasn't public. >> okay. where were the little guy's parents? >> the parents in georgia. the father came today. and left today. and to make arrangements for the body to be returned to roswell. >> so obviously they were under the impression this would be a nice little vacation with grandma and grandpa visiting from germany. bring in john lucich on this. how do you investigate something like this? it's cut and dried, it seems that grandma did this. where do you go with this and where do you go as far as prosecution? >> you've got statements from the woman, but it doesn't end there. the cops have to continue to do an investigation. they have to do an you aautopsy on the body. so all the steps, so nothing comes up to be a surprise at the

trial. what's so frustrating about cases like this, it's senseless. it's not like preventing something like a burglary or preventing robberies. this is something almost unpreventable and really comes down to psychological issues sometimes not seen in a person until someone does snap and tragedies happen like this. >> wendy, let's get back to that when we talk about motive here and the divorce, that she couldn't stand it, to think that her grandson would grow up in a divorced home. >> well, it's my understanding that her daughter, who is the mother of this child, had been divorced from the father for three years, since 2006. so it's not a new, sudden event. and that's why it's confusing to me to have had no warning signs or to be using this as a kind of excuse, if you will clearly, she had what we call a psychotic break. and she wasn't herself. and she went violent and something happened. what triggered it could be any number of things. and it's tragic, but, you know,

i would think that there might have been some kind of warning sign, something going on, something she was talking about or saying or that someone in the family might have paid attention to. >> right. and, david, she tried to commit suicide afterward, is that correct? she waded out into the gulf of mexico? >> she put on long underwear and a red jacket and went out of to the gulf. but the weather has been about as cold as it's been all winter. so when the grandfather came home, he saw her wet from the neck down. so -- >> wendy, real quick about that, what does that tell you? that she would do this and immediately go try to kill herself out in the gulf? >> well, i think from a legal sense they will probably say she's showing some remorse or she had some sense in her mind that she realized what she had done, which might affect the trial in some way but, you know, these psychotic breaks can happen and pooeb people can come out of them and go, oh, my god, who did that, like a

schizophrenic person who goes into some kind of zone and wakes up and goes, whoa, what was that. it's interesting to note she wasn't able to follow through in it. so she was clearly in a different state of mind when it came to her suicidal thoughts. but the real issue right now is grieving. how does a family grieve. >> how does a daughter deal with that, that her own mother would take her son's life. yeah, so many -- >> yeah. you know, i often say that depression is something that there's so many ways to cure and help depression. but one of the most difficult depressions to ever overcome is the loss of a child. >> we'll have to leave it there. wendy, david, john, we appreciate it. want to hear from you on this one. there's basically a manual in new york city, heroin for dummies for lack of a better term. the city spent $32,000 to put this together basically letting heroin addicts know safe ways to use heroin. is that even possible

help me out here. how does a 16-page step by step guide on how to shoot up heroin help addicts recover? new york city's health department made 7 p o,000 flyers giving advice on how to get needles, how to be a better drug user all paid for by taxpayer dollars. that's your money spent so that a drug addict can safely get high. here's lena cho with our sister next work cnn with more p. >> reporter: this familiar flet is called take charge, take care, ten tips for safer use. a virtual heroin how-to guide complete with illustrations and detailed tips. warm your body, jump up and down to show your veins.

don't always inject in the same spot. and don't dig for veins. if you don't register, pull out and try again. >> jump up and down to show your veins. find your vein before you try toin jekt it. where's the health concern there? if you miss the vein, you might get a bruise? that's an egregious use of taxpayer money. >> reporter: the brain child of new york city's health department, 70,000 flyers. >> i think it sends out the message and the wrong message that heroin use can be safe. heroin use cannot be safe. heroin use can be deadly. >> reporter: that's exactly why new york's health department says these tips are crucial. accidental overdose is the fourth leading cause of death in new york city, claiming more than 600 lives a year. another big issue, hiv and aids. one third of americans living with hiv are infected through

injection drug use. one reason why the health department also encourages users not to share needles but adds, there's no healthy use of drugs. just helpful information. >> the messages are clear. it's about getting help to stop using drugs. it's about preventing overdose. it's about preventing hiv infection and hepatitis infection. that's the context. >> reporter: information that could have helped this 35-year-old heroin user. we'll call him john. he shoots up several times a week. it 1/2 years ago, john was diagnosed with hepatitis c. >> most people are going to use and find a way to use regardless. i think it's better that somebody has the right information so that they can do it the right way. >> all right. there you go. we're going to have more on this. want to hear from you. we have experts lined up on each side of the issue. where do you fall? do you think this is a good idea or taxpayer dollars wasted? call in 1-877-tell-hln.

when i was growing up on a rural back road, family violence was an accepted ways of life. this is my mother and i'm the baby here. and my father and my brother, richard and my sister pauline. my father would commonly abuse all of us. he raped me and beat my mother. and my other siblings. when the neighbors heard screaming coming from our home, they just turned their heads for domestic violence victims in rural areas, it can be very devastating. they're out there on these backroads with no access to in-town services. many of them do not have telephones. some of them do not have driver's license or an automobile. so we go to them. my name is winona ward. the turning point for me was when a child in my family revealed that she had been abused by my father and my

brother i just said, this has to stop. when i graduated from law school, i was 48 years old good morning, my dear. i go to people's homes, give them in-home consultation, provide them with free legal services and transportation to and from court hearings i don't want children to have to go through what i did as a child. i want to see my clients become empowered. i can understand them, and they know that i will be there to o protect them.

all right. welcome back. continuing our conversation, we laid it out for you just before the break. new york city dispersing 70,000 flyers, spent $3 it,000 basically coming up with a how-to guide, for lack of a better term here, on how to safely use heroin. joining me now to talk about this, new york attorney eric

richmond. also ken sealey, and interventionist, founder of interfention 911.com. he was an addict. clean now for ten years. ken, i'll start with you. is this good or not good? >> mike, i think this is one of the worst things that we could see happening right now. if you really want to educate the public, i think the better thing to do to help them is give them the tools that are necessary to see the red flags when somebody has the disease of addiction and then tell them what to do on guiding them-to-treatment and help with the problem instead of giving them the solution to keep them sick in their disease. it's devastating. >> do you think this is a green light? say somebody -- let's say their drug user, haven't tried heroin yet. you think this is a green light, this is a safe way to use it? >> i'll use my own story, for example. that's one of the drugs i didn't try because that's what drug addicts did.

but i'm telling you i can remember when i was back in my disease, i would have taken that pamphlet and said, hey, they're showing me how to do this healthy. i can do this and live through it. and if the state is okaying it, then, great, let's try it. addicts will do that. >> let's get eric richmond in on this. eric, what about that, that this somewhat legitimizes or demystifies heroin use? >> i think the concept that somebody using drugs would pick up a 16-page pamphlet and follow it like a zombie to the letter is void on its face. quite honestly, i'm surprised at ken, somebody who specializes in treatment doesn't see this as treatment. if you look at this guide as a whole, then you'll see that it doesn't just give advice as to how to inject. it also talks about where to go for help. and when it says to use with somebody, it says that somebody is there so that they make sure that you don't overdose alone. there's a lot of very helpful

information here. and to ignore it or to deny it is really like burying your head in the sand as to a major problem in new york city. >> ken, i'll let you respond. but we have some phone calls. go ahead. >> i disagree. i think by giving them the tools that they need to help them get high on heroin -- heroin is an illegal substance. it's not even legal in this country. so by giving them the tools to do it, i disagree. i say educate the families, educate the addict object on getting the help necessary, but don't give them the necessary tools to keep them in their disease. absolutely not. >> let's get a call in. christine is with us in washington. your thoughts here. >> caller: hi, christine. well, actually, i have a cousin that was injected by a heroin user -- not a user but a dealer. and he was killed. and right now they are going through -- i mean, he is going to court. they are taking the dealer to court and they're holding him responsible. so i think that this is just wrong, period, because no matter what pamphlet you handout,

they're still going to inject these kids and they're going to inject themselves and they're still going to have overdoses no matter what. >> eric, i'll let you tangle that one. and it's just because in the sense, when we heard it in the package, that there's no safe way to use heroin and it can be deadly. go ahead. >> that's correct, there is no safe way. but there are safer ways. and what this is is education. the problem in new york is both on the individual level with people, over 70% is heroin overdoses. there's a major spread of hiv and hepatitis as you said in the previous segment. to ignore that is denialism, like denying gravity exists. we have a problem in new york. are you going to deal with it or deny it exists and start arresting people who quite honestly are at the bottom of the food chain as opposed to arresting people like your caller called about, somebody actually supplying this drug. >> let me get to a facebook comment. the money used to design and

print those pamphlets could have been put to better use. ken, how could that $32,000 taxpayer money be better spent? >> again, i don't disagree with education. education is key. but educate the people on what to do. give them the tools necessary. and then if they refuse to get the help that they desperately need because they're in the disease of their addiction, then you could get the law enforcement involved and get them involved in drug court. use those funds to fund drug court. that's an amazing program in new york. it helps save people's life. that's where you educate the people. >> real quick, another call. theresa in minnesota. go ahead. >> caller: i think this pamphlet is an absolutely great idea. let us prolong these heroin addicts' lives so they can inflict more emotional, psychological and financial abuse on their families and not only that, but why don't we print out a few more pamphlets

about how to safely abuse people and break the law. >> theresa, wrapping things up but on a sarcastic note for us. good debate, guys. thanks again. coming up, accused bank robbers, young girls ages 12 and 14.

all right. here we go. spanking our kids. key bait that always gets your attention, i'm sure. could a swat on the bottom actually be good for our kids? a new study says, hey, they're better off. a survey of 17 9 teenagers found kids spanked between 2 and 6 were more adjusted, did better in school, volunteered more in the community. older kids shows spanked between 7 and 1 is, slightly more aggressive but still fared better. it took into account teenage depression, sexual activity. so not a lot of downs other than the 7 and 1 is being more aggressive. what are you thinking? are you buying it? call 1-877-tell-hln.

welcome back rene siler, author of the book, goodenoughmother.com. good to have you back. welcome back as well clinical psychologist michelle golan, her website part of momlogic.com. let's see what the folks are saying. read facebook comments and let you chime in. joe in illinois. spanking, good? can it be -- are you buying this study that the kids that were spanked are better adjusted, better academically and more volunteer work? >> caller: yeah, i think so. i've spanked my children. i'm not talking about beating them up or anything. but i gave them corporal punishment and believe it should be back in school too. that's why kids are out of control. >> you think we're lax with our kids and that's why we're in trouble. >> caller: i think so. it worked with me. it worked with my kid. and i completely think it should be brought back into the schools also. >> all right. i'm -- full disclosure here, i

give my guys a swat every now and then, nothing too much. i'm not sure i like someone else spanking my kids. different debate. let's get a couple of facebook comments in. this is from margo writing, my mom hit me once and i am so scared. no one should justify laying a hand on a child. bonnie s. writes this on facebook. butts are padded for a nice reason. a little swat never hurt anyone. let's get our experts. michelle goalian, spanking in a controlled way, effective or not? >> you know what, i think the problem with these sorts of studies are we don't know how these kids were spanked. and when we talk about spanking and we put it out there to the public that spanking is okay, we're not advocating spanking in a controlled manner. i think what we need to do is educate about if spanking is okay, even if it's done in a controlled manner, that i'm not even sure about how effective that is. i don't think it's that

effective compared to positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement with children. and, again, teaching a child if you're upset or your friend does something wrong, do you spank them? do you hit them? i mean, that's what you're showing them as what you do. >> that's your kernels? rene, i know you're not the perfect mom, but you did a pretty good job. did you, a couple of swats here or there? >> yeah, absolutely. here's the thing. my only concern is when you have a child in imminent danger and too young, perhaps too young to reason with, say 2-year-old ready to reach a hot stove or run into the street, i don't know how effective reasoning and loss of reinforcement is to them at that moment. i think you need to take immediate action and make sure they understand that they're in imminent danger and imminent harm. >> michelle, real quick on that. dangerous situation? >> i understand those situations. and even parents who don't advocate spanking regularly would possibly do that. but that -- when you put out in

the public that spanking in general is okay, even this author can understand that's not what is being told to the general public. if your only option of discipline to your child is if they grab the wrong toy or they tell you, no, i don't want dinner and you give them a smack, i mean that's what gets interpreted by the general public. and that's a huge problem. i'm not talking about what you're talking about. it's not the same. >> and the author did say this, that this is not a green light for spanking kids but should be a red light for lawmakers who want to outlaw spanking. so i think that's where the author is coming from. kind of agreeing with you on that, michelle. another call in. carol is with us in virginia. carol, spank, no? your thoughts? >> caller: no. no. there's never a need to spank. spanking is a form of violence. it teaches children violence. there's enough violence in this world. i have witnessed firsthand a family member who has spanked their children. and i have witnessed and seen

firsthand the bullying that the children -- they did at ages -- this goes from about age 3 to age 7. i have seen nightmares, bed wetting, learning disorders. >> carol, was this violent spanking? >> caller: it was spanking with a paddle. >> okay. was the parent out of control when they did it? >> caller: no. the parents aren't out of control when they did it. >> but they used a paddle. >> caller: the children were complaining and obviously it bothered them to the point that they were talking about and asking if it's right if we do it. and if you question the prisoners, most of them have been spanked. it's an easy way out for parents that are so busy today. we are all given a mind -- >> that's not why -- i don't spank my kids. >> hold it. a couple of things to hit on here. michelle, let you have the first shot, then rene. the paddle, i don't think a lot of people would agree with that. >> the problem is we can

advocate, no, you're not supposed to spank when you're angry. but that's what happens. face it, that's what happens. people spank and are physically aggressive to their children when they are out of control and they're mostly releasing their own anger and their own frustration. and one of the methods that i find is mostesquive is a book called "magic 1, 2, 3." what they do, it's about giving limits, about you being calm when you're angry and upset and needing to discipline the child and using positive and negative reinforcement. i'm not talking about a 2-year-old running into the street. i would jump on top of my child if i had to stop them from running into the street. we're talking apples and oranges. >> have never smacked a hand because if that makes me a bad person then i'm a bad person because i have smacked a hand that was reaching for a hot stove or i have actually -- i mean -- hang on just a second. let me finish. or i have actually smacked my

child who was behaving in an inappropriate manner in front of, you know -- with another child. i mean, some behavior has to stop that's the fastest way to get it to get it to stop. >> it's a good debate as always. 1-877-tell-hln the number. spanking or not, call in. blvg

as always, we love having you in on the conversation. call in 1-877-tell-hln, and again we're talking about a new spanking study saying that kids spanked from the age of 2 to 6 actually better adjusted than those who were not spanked. better academically, participated in more volunteer work as they became older. we're going to have an informal poll on our facebook page. go to cnn poi.com/primenews and click on facebook. 70% of those polled on facebook said, yes, they do spank. let's get another call in. michelle with us in florida. your thoughts? >> caller: i'm sorry. good afternoon. i just want to say, mike, that i respect everyone's opinions. as a professional educator who works with children, my colleagues and i agree that students of today, they don't have consequences for their inappropriate behavior. in the past there wasn't the

ad/hd label to use for certain behaviors. i was spanked. my colleagues were spanked. we grew up to be professionals who are leading the country. we vote. we haven't had criminal records. >> gotcha. >> caller: so our opinions matter and the parents today, dlaers no boundaries, no consequences and i do believe in spanking, yes, sir. >> thank you. thanks for the call. a facebook agreeing with anita. i got my share. i agree. that's why i turned out to be a good adult. michelle really not for spanking, i have that right, michelle. >> no. i guess -- wait, mike. i wasn't spanked and i turned out really good. >> of course you did, yes. but a lot of people say, you know what, i was spanked and i turned out okay. what do you tell these people who are now parents? >> to me, again, it's about educati education. it's about what we know now is better for self esteem and understanding and connecting

with your child. and i have to say the other guest, she started off saying it's about danger, that when her child was running into the street, when her child was reaching for a pot. of course in those moments when we're reacting, i would probably do the same thing. but then she went on to say that she also smacked her child in front of another child when they were doing -- >> i have topping back and clarify. but i'll go ahead and let you finish. i'll clarify when she's done. >> i think i'd like clarification. were they in danger? >> yes. here's what happened, michelle. michelle, here's what happened. when my children had play dates and they were hitting on another child or doing something that was inappropriate, the fastest way to correct that behavior -- i'm not talking about 13-year-olds. i'm talking about 13-month-olds, was a quick swat on the bottom. that stopped it. i'm not saying that i beat my children senseless but what i am saying -- let me finish, please, michelle. but what i am saying is there's a time and a place. my children are now 1 is and 13

and they are fine. my point was this is not about the imminent danger. that was one example, michelle. you can't paint this entire thing with the one example i gave you, period. >> let's get another call in. regina with us in tennessee. go ahead. >> caller: yes, sir. i believe that parents need the right to use reasonable force to teach their kids right from wrong so that law enforcement won't have to do it. >> so just a controlled swat, that's what you're advocating, regina? >> caller: i'm advocating using from when they're little teaching them right from wrong, a controlled swat. and i'll guarantee you when they go to somebody else who says, oh, you're mother was wrong to do that, it's totally confusing and that is when they're going to act out. >> okay. regina, thanks so much. i'll let -- clock's ticking but

a final word. 5-year-old acting up, you can't reason with a 5-year-old. they're just battling you and battling you. is that a time for a swat or not? >> absolutely not. that's a kindergartner. that's a child that should be put in a time-out or chillout. i have to say, regina, for you to smack a 13-month-old because they hit another child doesn't just make sense to me. >> my name is rene. >> i'm sorry. >> the one thing i want to leave with you, michelle, is parenting is a very visceral thing. we do this from our gut feeling but we also have to remember what works for one doesn't work for another. and i think it's really inappropriate for you to call my parenting style inappropriate. thank you very much. >> we'll leave it there. as always, it's a good debate. we've got a poll going on our facebook page. website cnn.com/primenews. kling r. click on the link vote whether or not it is a good thing to spank. new study says it's a good thing.

coming up, how about this, another one we want you to chime in on. it's a dating website. there it is, beautifulpeople.com. we come to find out that a few folks put on some extra weight over the holidays that were a part of this website. well, some of the members of the website said, unh-unh. they called them festive fatties and then booted them off the website!

welcome back to "prime news" on hln. want to hear from you on this one. call in 1-877-tell-hln. here we go. put on a few extra pounds over the holidays? i think i did. that turkey pot pie was incredible. anyway, there's a dating website out there that actually kicked out people they're calling festive fatties. their words, not mine. here's the website beautifulpeople.com booted 5,000

members for gaining too much weight over the holidays. come on. what do you expect from a website that has a quote saying they have a ban on ugly people? one that says letting fatties roam the site is a direct threat to our business model. want to hear from you on this one. phone lines wide open. 1-877-tell-hln is the number. joining us to talk about this, greg hodge. he is the website's managing director. greg, you know what a lot of folks are saying. come on, you're the post christmas scrooge here, the grinch. these people -- they put on an extra five or ten and you're booting them. what gives? >> beautiful people is founded on one very basic principle of human nature and that is that everyone wants to be with someone they're attracted to, at least initially. so if people are applying to our website and voted on by existing members of the opposite sex based on whether they find them attractive, if you get the majority of positive votes you're accepted on to the site. we can't have people voted on to the site with one picture and going out and meeting members

and members finding that they're not being represented honestly. right now internet dating and networking sites are a minefield of people that don't represent themselves properly. >> you didn't actually do this. these were other members who were offended by these, as one quote -- >> exactly. beauty is subjective. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. so no one person can define beauty. beautiful people doesn't aim to define beauty. what it does do is give an accurate representation of what society's idea of beauty is. members would be browsing through profiles and see they had recently uploaded other pictures in their photo albums where they gained a few festive pounds. i had a lot of complaints from members and unfortunately we had to move those members back through rating and go through the process again and the vast majority were removed from the site, which hurts us. from a business perspective it's money down the drain. >> were you surprised that people were that offended or that, hey, get them off?

>> no. >> were you surprised you got that? >> no. if you're a member of a golf club and don't pay your $100,000 a year dues, you're you don't p $100,000 a year dues, you're going to be kicked off. just because you're accepted doesn't mean you're a lifetime member. >> i was one of those who got the boot, i gained 16 pounds over the holidays mostly because i was involved in a car crash and needed six transfusions. the wreck woke me up, beauty is not in the eyes of the web page broker, but in the eyes of your lover. what are you thoughts on that? >> that quote is very new to me and if there's extenuating circumstances, we'll review that

on a case-by-case basis. but in general that's not what's happened. granted it's been a tough year and people do eat and drink a lot more over the festive season. but our members expect and we need to -- if they're representing themselves one way, if they're met out at events or someplace, we want them to look as good as their picture, not worse. >> but that's a sad story there, they get in a wreck, they're not as mobile and things like that. >> that's certainly a tragedy, and if that's the case, obviously we'll deal with those on a case-by-case basis. but that's the exception, that's certainly not the norm. >> but you're sticking to the website, beautiful people.com, you know you're being judged, so that's the rules of the game. we'll get some calls when ke come back, the number,

1-877-tell-hln.