>> dickerson: welcome back i'm john dickerson. joining us now is former attorney general alberto gonzales he is out with new book called "true faith and allegiance" a story of service and sacrifice in war and peace about his life and time serving the george w. bush administration. i want to start withr administration official to be off in a secret location. temp us first a little bit about that experience. and then you said it gave you new appreciation for the presidency, how so? >> well, of course, when a disaster and presidentsial

airplane flying around, i remember thinking, watching president bush give the address that evening. i would advise him through two cars, i've experienced pretty big moments with him before. but sitting on that airplane suddenly hit me, my gosh, something happened in washington, would i and people on that airplane be able to govern a wounded nation. president finishes his speech, base and we land. i had an appreciation of the tremendous pressure and power the opportunity to be president of the united states was really special. >> dickerson: we're in the middle of campaign where people are imagining the candidates stepping into that role that you stepped in to for 45 minutes or however long the speech was. saw said it takes a special kind of perp to be president, what do you mean by that? >> looking at the president make

the supreme skort or decision to send mend and women into battle it takes someone are you few where integrity matters most. people want to know the person, most powerful person in the world is constrained by constitution. wisdom is very important. a positive vision for america, come with i can take to you a better place. america is one of the lead someone who believes in them. and courage. the office of bad decision making i heard president bush say this often. you have to have the courage to make the tough decisions because at the end of the day, that's what the american people expect is you make right decision to be bold and promise of this country. >> dickerson: you're a republican, does donald trump have those qualities?

dickerson: what's to evaluate? >> he shifts positions from time to time. i don't know donald trump. i don't think i've ever met donald trump. i think being able to know someone takes some time. and i know there are lot of good people that i trust and know who are not supporting him. what it tells me is that i need to study this man very, very closely. i don't think americans should make a decision based upon the recommendations of anyone else. for example, today said, i don't support donald trump expect other americans to follow my lead. i would expect them to do their own investigation, evaluation to whether or not this is the right person for them and their families and to lead this country. >> dickerson: based on the criteria you outline in the book, let me ask you another thing you said about donald trump's comments about mexico because he made the trip this week. donald trump said just remind people they bring drugs, they bring crime, they're rippists, you said, you can't unring that bell what does that mean?

president makes a statement. i talk about that in the book in terms of, once the president makes a statement, it's very, very difficult to walk that back back. i think someone in the oval office very careful about the words they say. because there are consequences, quite frankly there should be when president draws red line in the sand, there will be consequences. there can nobody doubt any minds of our enemies that we intend to follow up and that there will be someone who sits in the oval office. >> dickerson: an anecdote in the book got lot of attention, it was march of 2004, john ashcroft was attorney general, scene in his hospital room where you're trying to get extension for the warrantless wiretapping program. and there had been different stories told about this, director comey of the fbi said that you and andy card were there to try to, as he put it

you tell your version of the story of what happened in the hospital room trying to get that extension. what -- how did it go as you saw it? >> you're right, i spent some time in the book talking about this. i say that, i testified under oath about what happened in the hospital room. inspector general of the department also spoke about what happened in the hospital room. i am on record, under oath about what happened, no one has contested my description of what happened. listen, andy card and i two times before that hospital room about our concern that he might not be competent. >> dickerson: the attorney general john ashcroft. >> if he wasn't competent we're not going to ask to do anything. we were primarily there to report on meeting we had just had with congressional leaders about the very same program and about the dispute and congressional leaders telling us we believe it should go forward with the program. >> dickerson: continue the program. >> because it's so important in protecting american lives.

train bombings. very dangerous time for our country. try to do what we could to have the tools necessary to protect america. >> dickerson: in terms of the warrantless wiretapping and in hansed interrogation that you over saw as well -- >> i didn't oversee it. dickerson: in your capacity with the president. >> i was counsel to the president but advice came from the department much justice, the senior leadership of the department and lawyers within administration saying, done a certain way would be and it would be lawful. >> dickerson: i apologize. not unimportant fact. how do you feel looking back on both of those things, both of those policies have been changed. in the republican race right now there are some -- donald trump saying bring back waterboarding, it would be great. >> should only do those things that are absolutely necessary and effective and lawful. >> dickerson: is that true of enhanced interrogation? >> absolutely. we've had testimony by folks from the cia and fbi talking

and at that time the department of justice issued opinion that if waterboarding,or example, was done certain supervision, it was only done to three people, high level detainees who we believe had information that it would be lawful. so, this was obviously very, very controversial and i don't mean try to -- in that who believes that waterboarding wasn't torture, merely meant to point out that the lawyers this right. to ensure that the cia and policy makers had the tools that they believe was necessary protect this country. >> dickerson: just very briefly parting question here, your view now, there's legal pathway to bring waterboarding back or -- >> would i support it? i'd have to want to talk to the cia folks to say, first of all, what is the threat. if in fact someone has information about a bomb going

next half hour and we have someone in custody that has information about that even chuck schumer said in that scenario said, yes, we authorize torture assuming, again, i'm not suggest can it would be torture as legal matter but would be tool that we should pursue. >> dickerson: all right. alberto gonzales. thanks very much. >> thanks, john.

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is. >> dickerson: joining us now for political analysis, susan page is "usa today's" washington bureau chief. jamelle bouie chief political correspondent and cbs news political analyst, molly ball covers politics for the atlant atlantic. ramesh ponnuru is the national review and fellow at the american enterprise institute. ramesh are start with you. at the end of the week donald trump has been to mexico met with the mexican president and gave a zesty speech in arizona do the calculation, where do things stand at the end of the week with donald trump and immigration? >> well, i think that it is confusing story. today on the airwaves trump supporters chris christie on this show and rudy guiliani are saying, he softened on immigration, no long for mass deportation. one of the reasons it's not getting through is that trump didn't actually say the mass deportations not on the table.

and he did it in a speech that was all of the -- were extremely hard line. the speech that actually reads differently than it looks. and i don't see how the trump campaign can expect that it is going to get credit for softening which it clearly wants if it won't actually come out and make that message more explicit. >> dickerson: molly, i was surprised that chris christie used the word "pause." donald trump during primary said out so fast your head will spin. that is very different than the word pause. >> it is. there's been a lot of 'teams muddy the water but i think that a decision was made when trump gave that immigration speech that he cannot walk back. as ramesh was saying the decision was made to cast this issue in very harsh terms. to continue to depict illegal immigrants as criminals and as a danger to this country. so whatever policy is in the fine print and i don't think we will ever know that because he's

once in a way. but the tone that have speech, i think really closed a door for trump. with some voters who were looking for him to be more compassionate. to strike a top more of acceptance no matter what policy he's add slow kateing, i think with certain hispanic voters certain non-hispanic voters there might have been an open door that door was closed by the desection that trump made to give that speech. >> dickerson: who are those voters that he's trying to -- donald trump trying to appeal to with this softening, whateve exists or doesn't exist. >> think whatever percentage of voters, republican voters are staying away from states like arizona and georgia and north carolina. north carolina, mitt romney won that by slim margin in 2012, pretty much a must win state for donald trump. i think that margin is mostly the result of republican voters who were just staying away. and you have all these activated, energized democratic voters who are taking their

suburban, which is predominant in states like virginia, colorado, important in pennsylvania. donald trump losing that group of voters then his path is very narrow, if increasingly nonexistent. >> it's interesting if you look most of the demographic groups they are pretty available four years ago. one exception are college educated whites. the exit polls in 2012, college educated whites went republican by 14 percentage pew research poll by 14 percentage points that is kind of swing, i don't think we've seen before with a big group in american politics since we started polling. >> dickerson: up by 14. >> up by 14 where as barack obama lost by 14 points just four years ago. think of big swing among college educated whites, huge part of the u.s. population, huge part of the electorate in just four

scientists at emery who looks at these questions, we couldn't come up with another example that have kind of swing since 1952 started to be able to look at the demographics of president shall elections. >> the gamble of trump cam in that he is realigning by 'tracking nor noncollege educated white voters and democrats. we haven't seen him do. that all the other groups are stable. >> you mention him, he has a model of election returns that predicts based on based on the variables, trump should win, clinton should lose. but he doesn't think that will happen because trump has run such different kind of campaign that scrambled the electorate in that way. >> dickerson: do you think going back to this point that molly was making about realigning the electorate, if that's your take wouldn't you not need to do the softening because you're realigning? in other words, do you see in the softening undermining this notion that there's a huge group of people out there.

this group of people isn't there, or not large enough to make up for the voters you're losing. i think the original theory was trump could have this hard line message be pull noncollege educated whites and white men from democrats, those who aren't voting pull them booty electric tort. what happens basically, yeah, you have this action, reactivating bunch of voters but a reaction, too. from african americans, latinos, reaction simply overwhelm action. trump campaign now trying to figure out how it can mitigate the reaction but i just don't think it has time to do so at this point. >> dickerson: is this what you saw in the visit to the detroit church, this is also part of this effort and where do we think that is going to be successful, meaningful, all about african americans or about this group of college educated voters that we've been talking about? >> if there is saw political calculation, that is always an if with trump and his campaign because so is improvisational

calculation, it is probably much more about those white swing voters. on the other hand you see him getting zero or one or two percent of the african american poll there may be no where to go for up. and images where he at least seems to be making contact and listening to african americans, could give him some lift there. but it does seem to be mostly about the predominantly white portion of the electorate that looks at him and believes that he's a racist, that he's intolerant, he's hateful want to vote for the republicans. they want to vote for the person with the r next to his name that's why i think trump still has some upside but he needs to convince them that they can do that. >> there's some good political science that part of the of the presidential election function of white racial views, that women can have softer, less conservative racial views than men. when they see candidates who are hard line or seemingly hard line

george w. bush, for example, did better than would you expect among white college educated women in part because his brand as it were was republican with more liberal racial views than typical republican. >> dickerson: ramesh, let me ask you a question how to fix this brand issue. because you can't do it in one event. yet when donald trump went to meet with the president of mexico, the word presidential got thrown around a lot. apply to the wisdom of the group here. what does it mean to be context? what is the real benefit of presidential? >> if you look at the breakdown in that north carolina poll from cbs, a majority of north carolina voters don't believe that donald trump is ready to be commander in chief. that is what it means. that is i think the central problem of this candidate. people dislike him, people dislike her but think she is ready to be commander in chief. they don't believe that he is. that i think when we're talking

image idea can you do those -- you've been to those moments but can you do it in just standing up there and having an image is that good enough? >> well, i think that combined with good performance in debates is probably good enough. because if in fact have electorate that wants to vote against hillary clinton because they don't think these honest and trustworthy and ready for change. but donald trump at least so far has not gotten of looking like you can trust him to be commander in chief. that doesn't -- i don't think you can say there's no time left for him to do this because despite all disadvantages that we've talked about so far for donald trump, he is still within striking distance. two points in your battleground states poll. we have 65 days left? >> dickerson: right. you've given us segue to talk about hillary clinton. gentleman nell, new information about her fbi interview, the

state of hillary clinton's campaign, now been several weeks it comes up it's a bruise that keeps getting hit. >> think at this point you can tie hillary clinton's fortunes to national polls to the tenor of her news coverage. when news coverage of clinton is good or neutral like just after the convention her poll numbers hit your 48, 49% level. she ends up establishing a seven or eight point lead over trump. when the e-mails come in,he the questions that remind people of all the things that they do not like about hillary clinton, they do not like about broader political worldcom in her numbers immediately so soft phone 45, 44. that street story going back to april or may. her lead after the convention was very similar to her lead at that time, difference but same pattern happen in april and may you had conversation about her

speeches and bernie's attacks, soft earned her to 44, 45. it sort of -- almost like a timing game that will just see come november where she is in the cycle. >> dickerson: ramesh, did u take anything away from the fbi reports that is new or just sort of general issue that she has on this that will within her all the way through to november? >> there's always another piece of evidence that tends to reinforce the public's view that there is a lack a lack of honesty, forth comin comingness from hillary clinton and i don't think that story is about clinton aides destroying phones with hammers is going to help her in any way. i talked to republicans strategists at least somebody is keeping this race competitive. >> yet big potential candle involving donald trump, i'm glad you asked chris christie, donald

illegal $25,000 contribution to a campaign committee associated with the florida attorney general who was at that time deciding whether to pursue an investigation into trump university. this is the kind of thing he's now paid a fine, which is -- at the "washington post" reported, this is -- should be major story i'm perplexed by why it hasn't gotten more attention. so much attention to her scandals and credibility to make attacks on the front of honesty it's harder for her to generate outrage about this potential scandal involving him. >> the news cycles of the third party candidates. >> dickerson: donald trump boasted about being able to do precise ly, that give donations to get what he wants. he hasn't been shy about. this he hasn't spoken directly to this thing but he has said that's why the system so corrupt because i was master at playing it. let me ask you about hillary clinton, when she speaks, is that good for her campaign or

>> i think it depends. i don't think it is the case that every time she opened her mouth she makes things worse. and she would hold a press conference, i think that whether or not she got herself into further trouble with her answers to questions it would be refreshing to see her facing the press and answering questions. and she's playing a very conventional campaign strategy where you spend your august fundraiser, then assume that the campaign gauges in full after labor day. we will see more of her doing public events and giving speeches after labor day. >> jamelle, she's likely more policy speeches is that a way to the criticism that she's disappeared during august raise a lot of money while she disappeared is that a way out of the fix sheets faces. >> i'm not really sure. i think when it comes to hillary clinton's public perception people just think that she knows a lot, she's very prepared with regards to policy. the things that people do not

like that she's secretive or believe that she cares about people like them. i'm not sure if more policy speeches would fix that latter problem. bill clinton never quite fixed about trustworthiness but able to convince people that he compared about them. and i think that is clinton's challenge going forward. >> dickerson: maybe impossible to fix the first. she could presumably if she gave good enough speeches without solutions that might work. that's it for us. thank you all very much. we'll be back

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guts. glory. ram. >> dickerson: that's it for this today thanks for watching. join us next week when we'll have cia director john brennan. for "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. enjoy your labor day. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh