hello. welcome. this is the "journal" on dw-tv. students' protest against government plans to raise tuition fees in ireland. >> germany's top economists say the economy will rise. >> and the holocaust claims conference scandal. student protests in london have turned violent, with

demonstrators stormed the headquarters of britain's governing conservative party. tens of thousand people of taken to the streets to protest the tuition hike, part of the government's sweeping austerity program, aimed at redding and the deficit. until now, there has been little protest against the cuts. >> they are angry against the government and they are demonstrating. at the headquarters of the governing conservative party. enraged protesters smashed the glass reception area and lit bonfires. the police were not prepared for the violence and war injuries among but the demonstrators and security forces -- and there were injuries among both the demonstrators and security forces. >> it is ridiculous. >> university fees are set to cost three times as much as they

are now. students will have to pay around 10,500 euros per year. the move has sparked widespread rage. some of the protesters stormed the party headquarters, smashing furniture and windows. the conservative liberal governing coalition said it is part of a comprehensive plan to rein in public borrowing. >> this is an extraordinarily difficult issue, and i have been entirely open about the fact we have not been able to deliver the policy that we held in opposition. >> student leaders have warned of the liberal democrats will lose an entire generation of supporters if the government goes through with the fee hikes. >> for more, we spoke with our correspondent in london, who

gave us this report. >> the group of protesters broke off from the largely peaceful demonstration. most of the protesters on the roof of the building have been brought down by the police, but the hard-core are still oxide. the police are dictating them one by one, bringing them inside the building, trying to contain the embarrassing situation. this is the conservative party headquarters, the ruling government party headquarters, not protected as the demonstrators passed by earlier in the afternoon. they broke part of the ceiling, smashed windows, got up on to the rooftop. now the police say that have not the situation very much under control and student leaders who organized -- now the police say they have the situation very much under control in the student leaders who organized the protest are condemning the violent protesters.

>> they are hit by the deep cuts. can we expect a surge of protests in britain? >> we certainly have not seen scenes like in france, very violent scenes, very strong protests. the public spending cuts in this country will affect a large number of people. the students who took to the streets today say that tuition fees will increase by three times, about 40% of university resources decreased. they're very angry about that, but student leaders have emphasized they want this protest to be peaceful and they feel these violent demonstrators have detracted from the message they wanted to get across. it has been in the media today, the violent pictures, the building being smashed, rather than the message they wanted to get across, that the cuts are not fair. a government cuts across the board in the country, certainly

many people not happy about that. it will have to wait and see if there will be more protests. british police investigating a parcel bomb found on board the cargo plane in central england last month say the device was set to explode inside u.s. airspace. the bomb hidden inside of a printer cartridge was intercepted at east midlands airport. it was mailed from yemen. investigators say forensics showed it was time to be activated across the eastern seaboard of the u.s. it was addressed to a jewish organization in chicago. u.s. secretary of state hillary clinton has criticized israel's plans to build more than 1000 new homes for jews in disputed east jerusalem, declaring them an obstacle to middle east peace talks. she made the announcement while announcing $150 million of new

direct assistance to the palestinian authority, calling for other donor countries to step up aid. she is scheduled to hold talks with benjamin netanyahu on thursday. ahead of the talks, israel's vice premier said israel would continue to build it in jerusalem forever. trade and currency issues are expected to dominate the g- 20 talks in seoul. world leaders arrived ahead of the summit. the g-20 represents two-thirds of the world's population and most of the global economy. global debt, trade policy, and trade imbalances are likely to trigger lively debate. >> this is no welcoming committee for g-20 leaders. protestors have a message for the summit. >> they have never achieved a substantial results. we urged the g-20 to adopt a

different direction. the poor are the victims of the global financial crisis. >> redistribution of wealth is what they want the g-20 leaders to concentrate on, but its economic policies will take center stage. when president obama and 19 other leaders meet, trade imbalances and currency exchange rates will top the agenda. german chancellor angela merkel left for the meeting supported by economic news at home. she also indirectly criticized u.s. federal reserve policy of quantitative easing. germany says it could cause instability. >> this time, everybody must ensure that global economic growth is more sustainable and long-lasting than what we thought a few years ago. >> the u.n. secretary-general is urging greater focus on the

world's poor and disadvantaged. >> i will do my best to ensure that the world's biggest and strongest economies create solutions for the poorest and most vulnerable people are around the world. >> demonstrators in seoul may welcome the words, but it will be expecting concrete action. can there be good news in germany? >> the council of economic advisers, the five wise men, are predicting smooth sailing ahead for the german economy. they predict strong economic growth this year, with a slight drop off in 2011. the forecast is for growth of 3.7% in 2010, making it the strongest in a long time, on the back of an economic boom, with unemployment continuing to fall further, under 3 million. >> it may be appropriate, but

the good economic news comes with the traditional celebration of the apple harvest. the strength of the economy is starting to bear political effort following months of bad headlines. the government's popularity is up. now the latest growth figures showed germany is recovering from the recession much faster than expected. >> there has been a noticeable drop in unemployment. the figure dropped below 3 million in october of 2010 for the first time in 18 years. >> despite the positive figures, the economic advisers caution the global economy still faces risks. >> given the experiences of recent years, we cannot exclude the possibility of a sudden shock to the financial markets which would have a bad effect on the real economy. >> the results do not mean the government has room to relax.

economics minister has called for tax cuts, something rejected by the advisers. they want continue spending discipline and an accelerated rate of economic reform. >> and we spoke with one of those economists and asked if the recovery is still export- lead or if consumer spending is lending a hand. >> we have a situation where the strong recovery of the german economy is drawing from two sources. one is exports, the other is domestic forces. the reforms to the label market, social security assistance, corporate taxes, and at public households have all bear fruit and the domestic economy is quite strong. we expect next year that most of the growth that we forecast, 2.2% overall, is coming from domestic forces.

>> german energy giant eon will sell 15 billion euros of assets, part of the new strategy aimed at expanding operations outside of europe. they said it will focus on growth opportunities elsewhere. the company warns of challenges ahead, such as the government's plans to tax nuclear fuel and tougher conditions in the market. european stock markets closed lower wednesday as the eurozone debt crisis reared its ugly head again. we have this report from the frankfurt stock exchange. >> for the longest time, it looked as if nothing could dampen the mood, the dax racing from annual high toot annual high, seemingly unencumbered. now the market has found a reason to consolidate. because of the road debt crisis being back. portugal, their bonds being sold

in the market, and had to pay higher interest rates to get the buyers to purchase the bonds. then at bair said ireland is under more pressure. the yields on the irish state bonds is rising drastically as people are fearing that ireland could be the first candidate to slip under the euro rescue bailout package. looking at the numbers, starting with the dax index, finishing the day lower, 6719. the euro stoxx 50 at 2845. in new york, stocks opened lower in trading, 11,342. and the euro at $1.3742. the government agreed to increased tobacco taxes on wednesday, increased gradually

over the next five years. that means smokers will have to pay between 4% and 8% more between now and 2015, bringing the cost of cigarettes up to 5 euros. the government says the measure will raise to but million euros in the first year alone -- will raise 200 million euros and the first year alone. the fbi in the york is charging 17 people they brazen scam that has thus far that a fund for -- that has defrauded a fund for holocaust survivors. >> victims of the holocaust who survived nazi concentration camps received reparations from two german government funds. the indictment says the supervisor of the funds and several accomplices skimmed millions of dollars for themselves. >> it is disgusting that anyone would steal, and certainly on this issue, but no amount of fraud will be tolerated.

we identified a, documented it, brought it to the fbi, and we will go to the end to find each and every application. >> the scandal is a major embarrassment for the jewish claims conference, founded in 1951, to distribute claims to victims of the holocaust. they recruited applicants through foreign-language newspapers in the united states. >> applicants, mostly in the russian jewish immigrant community, were recruited to provide identification documents in exchange for a promise of money from a fund related to the war. >> with the fraudulent claims, the suspects allegedly siphoned more than 30 million euros from the fund. most of it was paid by the german government. if convicted, they face up to 20 years in prison. players, coaches, and top managers from the world of german soccer have been

commemorating robert enke, who took his life one year ago. germany's coach was among those who laid a wreath at the goalkeepers grave. the shock of anke's suicide led to a new awareness of the pressures of professional sports and depression among athletes. >> the movers and shakers of german football paid tribute at the grave. the family requested the number of mourners be kept to a minimum. at his former club also paid tribute with a small memorial. the anniversary also brings back questions about how professional soccer treats its players. >> i assume that little or nothing has changed. it was not realistic to expect that. i don't think he could just flip a switch and say everything is different and that it simply works. we still need a lot of time. >> enke felt he had to keep this

depression a secret from his teammates and club management. the german soccer federation has started a new foundation and his name to raise awareness of depression and make clear is an illness and not a weakness. that is an ambitious goal, especially in professional soccer, or performances precisely analyzed. things may not change quickly despite the efforts. sotheby's auction house is helping. a world record with the sale of a rare pink diamond. the estimated value is between 90 million and -- between 19 million and 27 million euros. it was bought from an american jeweler. experts say it has top rating for purity and color. one official described as pink champagne.

we will be back in a minute. don't go away, please.

welcome back. germany is moving to solve a growth problem affecting many european countries since the 1960's, a steady drop in the birthrate. a new study points to a new problem. the average age of first-time fathers is increasing and now stands at a 30 years, one month. the government is moving to introduce measures that it hopes will be an incentive to families, like guaranteed child care and parental leave. berlin once tax-funded care for children when you're an older to be made available by 2013. that is already the case in one state. >> this is nikko.

he is proud to be going to nurture reese school, following the footsteps of his older sister, -- he is proud to be going to a nursery school, following the steps of his older sister and a temporary his father reduced his working hours with the kids were born while their mother kept her full-time position as a college professor, and coordinating their schedules is a complex task, but things that easier once he went to nursery school. >> first of all, i can keep working without any disadvantages. at the same time, i know that my kids are being looked after. i don't have to worry about anything bad happening to them. >> the family just bought a house. he wants to work full time again. every bit counts. they are happy they don't have to pay for their children's care at nursery school. it is a new experience for

nikko. the staff was trained on location and facilities were rebuilt for the purpose. the changing table was not here before. neither was the quiet room. many working parents won a place for their children here. >> we already have 19 applications for the coming school year. but we only have 11 places available. >> the state spends more than 80 million euros per year to provide nursery care free of charge. it is money that could be spent elsewhere, but the state government considers it an investment for the future. >> decisions regarding children and families are always dependent on many factors. i am absolutely convinced that a well run the program of educational and child care offerings can encourage young families to start.

they want good opportunities for the children and the need to be up to combine family and career. >> while the children spend their days in the nursery, their mother has time to prepare her lectures. she loves her children and her career. she says it is a shame that many families have such difficulties combining them, and she thinks the government should step in. >> people are always talking about aging population and a lack of workers in the future. if we are not producing future generations now, there will be no place for young people grow up. that is why the government has to do something, to ensure that more children are born here. >> their family is happy that the state is leading the way when it comes to state funded child care. they hope that families in other german states will some day enjoy the same benefits. the situation is improving for child care, with 23% of

children under three now and preschool, a 2.7% increase over 2009. some doubt whether widely available child care will increase the birth rate. research has shown birth rate depends more on the social environment than on financial incentives. in many parts of germany, a working mother is still seen as a bad mother, sacrificing her children for cash or career. with women often paid considerably less than their male counterparts, the cost of day care could mean it is hardly worth their while going to work, at least in economic terms. the situation in france is quite different. it has a population that is actually growing. >> there are lots of mothers with their children on the streets of downtown paris in the late afternoon. the mothers are coming home from work and the children are coming back from day care centers.

a career and motherhood at the same time, perfectly normal here. >> it is hard for me to imagine a life without children. i waited until i accomplished certain things but i always knew i wanted to have children. >> in france, most woman tried to get their career started early before they have children, even though can be complicated. >> there are moments when you think you are not doing anything right. but to stay at home and only take care of the children? i cannot imagine that. >> i never had a guilty conscience, even though my children went to a nursery at an early age. my daughter was 4 months old, my son was 3 months old. i am delighted with the system. my children always got the attention that they needed.

>> some 80% of all mothers and france also have full-time jobs. this sociologists says that has political ramifications. >> they expect the state to help them. there is a lot of demand and pressure on policy makers to create conditions that make it possible to combine work and family life. >> but what about germany? this researcher has been analyzing data related to birth rates for years. he says it shows most couples want children but there are not enough child care facilities, and when there are, they are expensive. >> couples try to come to terms with the situations, but in both cases -- but in most cases it causes the woman to leave the

job market, at least temporarily, to rear the children. this becomes problematic when a second child comes along. >> prevailing attitudes and a lack of affordable day care facilities often lead women to make a fundamental choice between having a career or having children. 20% of all women over 50 in germany have no children. this person says society is facing a dilemma. >> on the one hand, we have strong mechanisms designed to expand women's roles and the work force. on the other, we have no solution would women face the classic conflict of choosing between jobs and family. >> but france seems to have found a way, with different social policies and a different concept of motherhood. >> women of the french aristocracy never raised their children.

from birth, they were entrusted to nursemaids, often far away from the family home. it was not unusual for women not to see their children until they were three years old. this concept is deeply rooted in contemporary society. though it was confined mainly to the aristocracy, it remains a tradition among wealthy families in the 19th century. >> that tradition means it is rare for a woman to be branded a bad mother and france just because she works. >> i am a feminist. i think the very idea that a woman could be obliged not to work is sad. >> introducing better day care policies could help boost the birth rate in germany, but as the french example shows, society would also have to

change some of its views on women, children, and motherhood. >> thank you for joining us. itgoodbye for now. -- goodbye for now. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

china blasts off. china is rocketing into the 21st century and not just the chinese program has ambitious goals. including building a manned space station and completing an unmanned lunar mission by the end of the decade. but is there an ulterior purpose? does china also have military aspirations in space? we'll ask this expert on chinese military and aero space affairs, dean cheng.

captions produced by visual audio captioning www.visualaudiocaptioning.com >> dean cheng, welcome. >> thank you very much. >> how robust are chinese space capabilities? >> china has a space power in the sense that it has both a launcher capacity. it produces its own satellites and it has its own mission control facilities. that puts it into basically one of only three or four countries that can do that. >> would you say it's on a par today with russia? >> in some ways it may actually be ahead of russia. >> really? >> yes, it spends about three times as much in terms of sheer money than the russian space

budget item. >> how about the technology? >> it varies. >> in relation to russian technology. >> right, in some areas it's behind. for example, power generation so that satellite life-span. on the other hand, when you're spending as much money and you're able to access foreign technology as well, including the russians, china's space capability is moving ahead. >> does it have satellites in orbit? >> yes, it does. >> many satellites? >> it's put up 50 since 1970 although we think maybe only a dozen are currently operational. >> can you tell me about europe's number of satellites that have been launched and are in the -- in orbit? >> europe as a whole, i believe, including their individual national programs, has probably put up several hundred satellites. >> several huh. how about the united states? i'm interested in a number comparison with 50. >> the u.s., having a longer history in space and a much larger budget, has probably put up something i think on the order of 500 satellites.

>> who are -- are those satellites that china has in space, are they civilian or military or dual use? >> they're very much dual use. china's space program at this point is mostly oriented spacect recently, very recently. >> uh-huh. >> will you describe the spacecraft? accelerated from >> the manned capsule is probably capable to our gemini series. it's the second manned launch. it's longer, wider and heavier than the soyuz and it's in fact quite a bit more capable than the soyuz. >> is it as big as a standard public bus? >> it is about 25 feet long. so i have to admit, i'm not sure how long a bus is. >> what about the interior of the vessel? >> it's quite cramped. and some of the video we've seen

so far put out by the chinese suggest that much accelerated from w module is crd indeed. last night they went into the orbital module, which is a separate section, so that gives them a little more room to get around. >> does it have flush toilets? >> no, it does not. what it does have is basically, for weightless conditions, a trap. >> the reason i bring that up is it would be quite a piece of technology and it has been in the press, but it maybe was -- it clearly was not true of this cap you'll, but there are advance features that china is looking ahead to putting into those capsules. does it resemble, on the inside, what is in a u.s. spacecraft? >> no, the u.s. manned spacecraft, in particular, the space shuttle is quite a bit larger, it has better food services and things like that. i'm not sure if they have flush toilets either, however.

>> they don't, to my knowledge. >> that's right. but what it is is it is smaller than a shuttle but it's probably on a par with our gemini, maybe even our apollo series. >> you say "our" or are you -- >> new york citizen. >> citizen? >> yes, i was born in new york city. >> so you don't have a dual passport, chinese citizen? >> no. >> does china look upon you as a friendsly observer? >> i don't know. >> but you can visit china >> yes, i have. and do so probably once a year. >> what are the goals of china's space program? >> china's space program, first and foremost, is aimed at support national economic development, providing farmers with agricultural weather predictions, providing railway ministry with maps of where to build things but the chinese are also interested in maintaining access to space in the event of

conflict. >> how does it campaign to the united states from the point of view of military defense? during -- i'm told during the gulf war one, and the second gulf war, and during the kosovo, when we were in that theater, that our communications was 80% -- 80% dependant on satellites. and the russians, the russian about 70%t, similar on satellites. >> uh-huh. >> does this -- of course that means a great deal to a military planner. >> yes. >> the integration of the military grid with this unusual capability and would have been very helpful in the instance of katrina, by the way. >> uh-huh, uh-huh. >> and people are now saying, you know, why, why isn't it in existence, et cetera, et cetera. >> uh-huh. >> but as a diagnostic,

satellites and their utility, aside from more extreme uses, like launching from a satellite, which is technically possible, i think, isn't it? >> yes, yes, it is. >> and launching a nuclear war head from a satellite is technically possible. >> yes, that is also technically possible. >> and it's technically possible from your satellite. >> uh-huh. >> i'm not being an alarmist here but we should really say that while the chinese don't dominate space, they want to be on a par with the united states? they want to be superior to the united states? the united states has a space command, a military space command. >> yes. >> full-fledged. >> yes. >> exclusively. >> that's right. >> does china have anything like that? >> there have been reports that the chinese are establishing a space command or a space military force. >> when will that be? >> where will that be? >> where will that be in china? >> in the next term, in a year or so.

>> that's in time. what about location? >> the chinese military command is centered in beijing so it would be set up -- in fact the astronauts are being tracked right outside beijing. >> isn't the launch site offlimits for the press? >> the launch site was offlimits to western and foreign press. actually, they broadcast this one live and allowed chinese press on to the grounds. >> now, our space command is located in colorado springs, cheyenne mountain, is that right? >> peterson air force base, i believe, but right outside chi yen. >> how does china view the u.s. space program? >> the chinese basically view our overall space program as the gold standard. as what they would like to achieve, hence they talk about, for example, going to the moon. militarily speaking, they believe that we are extremely dependant on space for fighting the kinds of noncontact asymmetric wars that we have done -- >> who is the we, the united

states? >> the united states. >> we as the united states are very dependant on it for asymmetrical wars. >> yes, in the chinese view. >> describe that more fully the asymmetry. >> they view us as specializing in noncombat warfare, the ability to strike from afar without putting as much of our forces in direct jeopardy and contact. they talk for our ability for our cruise missiles, stealth bombers, carrier battle groups to reach out and touch someone if you will. >> does china feel it's disadvantaged from the united states by reason the of the fact we have more space command, more satellites in space, the satellites are more sophisticated, spacecraft superior to theirs, do they feel at a tragic disadvantage? >> next they do. >> they do. however, at the international conferences china has been very outspoken for over a decade declaring that space should not be militarized, correct? >> yes. >> and it deplores the

militarization of space, correct? >> correct. >> although it's quite clear that they're going down the military track to at least not be in a position of disadvantage to the united states, is that correct? >> they are moving down the track of wanting to ensure their own ability to use space in event of conflict. whether or not that's quite the same thing i think remains to be seen. the chinese basically understand, for the people's liberation army, the pla, they understand that if they are called upon to fight a war that they will have to be able to use space. >> the pla puts a program together and put the technology together with a corporation which is also, i think, joined to the pla, the people's liberation army. >> the chinese aerospace industries, their ownership is extremely murky. >> murky.

>> yes. the pla certainly has interests in all that occurs in places like chinese aerospace and space technologies corporation. >> showdown shud we assume that because the pla is so intrinsic and indispensable to the chinese ethic that there's a lot more to the militarization component of its program than is known commonly? >> i think it's safe to say that chinese space assets, any information that is derived from them, if the pla wants it the pla can and will get it. >> do you recall china's row in equipping saddam with fiberoptics and additional munitions prior to our entry into the war? >> i recall reading reports about that, yes. >> do you believe those reports? >> i do. >> do you know that they were absolutely stunned of our entry

into it? did you read -- our entry into iraq? >> i think that politically and diplomatically, by the time we invaded iraq in 2003, that they -- that didn't surprise them. what surprised them was our ability -- our decision to go ahead, regardless of whether or not the u.n. authorized it. >> was china not also extremely surprised at the power of our military juggernaut and also at the smart weapons and the unbelievable accuracy and power of those weapons? >> yes. they really were -- one of the things that really surprised them was when the giant sandstorms hit our advance to bagged and the fact that american forces use be gps were able to motor through much of that. interestingly, we have indications that the chinese, using their satellites, were

tracking the advance to baghdad. >> so looking at this picture in the united states and china's concern about its own national defense, china really wants to do more to get into the international sphere as a play player, and to do that you really have to have a developed space program, both politically and militarily. >> yes. >> correct? >> correct. >> to what extent is china relying on espionage to increase its mastery of high technology? est.l put that question to our but fut first here is his distinguished profile. >> born, new york city. 39 years of age. wife, sharon. presbyterian. politics, independent.

princeton university b.a. politics. massachusetts institute of technology, m.i.t., ph.d. studies, political science. institute for foreign policy analysis, research associate, three years. u.s. congressional office of technology assessment, two years. science applications international corporation. the largest u.s. employee-owned research and engineering company, senior analyst, five years. senior asian analyst four years currently. languages, mandarin chinese. hobbies, history and science, c, traveling. dean benjamin cheng. >> dean benjamin cheng is joined with me with dr. joan johnson-freese, now teaching at the naval war college in that

great state of rhode island. in that city filled with grandeur near there at least or on the edge of it, maybe in newport, rhode island. she is a noted author. many books on the subject under which we have discussion. and she's assumed the position of chairwoman of the department of national security studies at the war college where she has been since 2002. welcome, dr. johnson-freese. do you have any thoughts on what has transpired on this program so far? >> yes, i've been listening with great interest and i guess i'd like to make two points. you had a discussion about whether the chinese were against the militarization of space and i guess i'd like to weigh in and say they've never said they're against militarization. like the united states, using space for military purposes has been considered part of military modernization, what the chinese have been adamant about and have gone to the u.n. and proposed, with the russians, treaties about this weaponnization and

confusing the two is, i think, well, it's certainly a misnomer and a mistake but it blurs the discussion of what the chinese are trying to do and the comparison between the u.s. and the chinese programs so that would be point one. >> yeah. >> and the second is that while the united states -- we like to think of ourselves as kind of hans solo or obie juan ka nobodiy in space, much of the rest of the world including china is darth vader when we talk about space. much of the world again including china sees the united states as if not directly then certainly indirectly moving towards the weaponnization of space. >> let's clear it up a little bit more. what are china's intentions with regard to space, does it object to militarized space, you've ruled it out and dean cheng has ruled it out. does it seek parity with the united states or military

dominance? >> well, it certainly wants the space capabilities, military space capabilities that it sees as very valuable for the united states, again, learning from two gulf wars and kosovo and a host of other military activities, where space has provided force enhancement capabilities that china very much desires. weaponnization is the 64,000-dollar question with regard to intent. as you've already talked about, 95% of space technology is dual use. so whether it is putting up a satellite for civil purposes or military purposes is, for the most part, they're trying to use it to maximize one satellite for as much as they can, both. but it's very hard to tell chinese intent. they are not transparent. they are very opaque. and i think, too, they're not quite sure what they want to do. i don't think they want parity. they understand that economically, that's impossible. if they're seeking some kind of

asymmetric advantage, they don't appear to be spending their money in ways that would give them that. they're buying a lot of one of this and one of that and going for high prestige programs like manned space. but they don't seem to have a coherent military space architecture that would give them an advantage. >> to put it in even further perspective you want to take note, if i'm correct that mao tse-tung started the program in 1958 am i correct? >> basically, with the russians, yeah. >> so then there was a launch about 10 years later? of what dong fong hong. >> dong fong hong. >> dong fong hong one. >> yes. >> what year was that. >> 1970. >> 1970? >> yes. >> if china is going to be a player in space it's got to have a role in the procalls the rules

of the game. >> yes. >> right now the rules of the game are in the hands of the united states dominantly if not exclusively, does the european union play a role in it. >> yes, it does. >> minor role? >> new york the european powers, u.s. china and europe probably in that order. >> how do they get in the game in developing a role in the standardization procedures and what does what. >> china is doing what it does right now, forging cooperative links in places like europe in programs such as the galileo program as well as joint scientific ventures so they have a place at the table when people are writing up the protocols and standardizations and things like that. >> do you think it has a competitive edge? >> i don't think it has a competitive edge but it's trying to get a seattle at the table. >> it's playing catchup? >> playing catchup relative to

the world it was isolated in its space program. today's space program is much more internationalized. >> you say and dark kick. >> antarcic. >> he 09s and '9- 09s, china was domestic development. >> i have the idea that the space program, how so far it appears to be is unfocused, is that true, or dr. johnson-freese, is that a correct impression i have? >> that the chinese space program is unfocused? >> unfocused, yes, happily and essentially stumbling along but essentially stumbling? >> no, i would not say it's stomach martin luther king, i would say it's multipurposed. it can't easily be categorized as for just one thing. i agree with dean, it's primarily economic development. but they're getting prestige, they're getting legitimacy,

they're getting dual use technology, they're getting influence on science and technology education, but it's many things to many people and that may come across as unfocused or haphazard but i think it's trying to maximize limited resources. >> well, how limited are the resources? it's current bucket for space is $2 billion a year. our budget is what 60, $70 billion? >> 25-30. >> 25 billion? i think -- but the percentage is the same of xdp, 1% for each and of course the dollar in china, we're talking dollar terms, goes much further hand it does in the united states so you can buy quite a bit pour $2 billion in china. >> you can buy quite a bit but china is still in some ways a poor country. every engineer that is committed to building space programs is an engineer not availle to building dams or improving micro economics. every dollar spent on the space program is a dollar not

available to help, you know, ago cultural -- solve agricultural issues in the hinterlands in china. >> suffered simultaneous cyber attacks that many u.s. officials believe was carried out by the chinese governments and its positionies to probe our systems. >> yes. >> this is called cyber warfare. >> uh-huh. >> do you think cyber warfare ought to really be the game and forget all about space, cyber warfare is cheaper and it can accomplish the same objectives, you can disable instantaneously and over a very wide scope. >> i think that rather framing it as an either/or that if we view it as complementary. >> we need both. >> we need both and conversely it poses even more of a potential threat. that the other side, whoever that may be, including china is able to exploit both cyber

warfare and space systems, in that case you're looking at much more of a full spectrum threat. >> do you have any comments on that? >> yeah, i think what's just been pointed out is technology creates issues as well as creates opportunities. and sometimes more technology is not the answer. sometimes what we need to do is start setting parameters to when do you consider activities threatening and when do you not. >> well, if you were -- if you were at the pentagon now, would you be taking careful note of the fact that there was a recent launch of a space capsule that, in terms of what the last launch was, is remarkably superior to the last launch in its technology and its duration, five days, which is a giant step for a beginner, a relative beginner? >> if i were at the pentagon i wouldn't be as concerned as if i were at nasa.

the chinese political will and their consistency as compared to our inability to move forward or at least our nebulous commitment to the manned program creates a perception that the chinese are catching up or even leapfrogging ahead of others in space technology. >> why the -- go ahead. >> i would say that if i were at the pentagon on the other hand, what i would be focused on is not necessarily whether they would launch but what they're going to do in space. if, for example, the orbital model detaches and engages in maneuvering in subsequent future missions, if they do docking which will be very much accelerated from where we were, where the soviets were, then in that case they're displaying technological capability, that would be quite meaningful. >> is everybody concerned about vulnerability here and rightly so? you take those satellites out, you've lost your eyes and you've lost your ears. you can hear nothing and you can see nothing.

the name of the game is satellites. is that true? >> yes. >> yes. >> well, isn't that just all offal? >> especially because it's the united states that has the most assets. >> what about the vulnerability factor, how vulnerable are they, we've only got five seconds. >> we're extremely vulnerable. >> extremely, the world is extremely vulnerable? >> yes. >> how big is the h he is peon knowledge, industrial espionage in china and should it be regarded as a threat to the united states, dr. johnson-freese. >> well, china has acquired its space technology through a variety of mets, develops its own indigenously, it's bought a lot from the russians for its manned program. it's very upfront that it likes to borrow the acquired knowledge from others in terms of not reinventing the wheel, taking the basic soyuz design and then there is espionage, and, first of all, space is a very

globalized industry. what it can't get from the united states legally it can get from many other countries legally. but there are other -- there are still some areas that are offlimits to china. the primary one i would say is sensors. sophisticated sensor technology. that's been an area of considerable concern. >> hold on. a high-ranking officer at the fbi calls china the biggest espionage threat to the united states, what do you say to that. >> when you've got 1.2 billion people to draw from you've got a large pool of folks to flood the system -- >> you mean like the 700,000 chinese who visit the united states annually. >> but not all of them are spies, some of them are students and tourists. >> some of them work for the media. >> how worried should we be on a scale of zero to 10, 10 being, you know, you're in panic, your

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