>> this is the journal on dw-tv. i am heather delisle. >> welcome to the show. >> scandal and server fifa as top officials get set to pick a world cup host. >> will next year be another tough one for the financial sector? the european union hold on to lenient rules for belling of the banks. >> an arctic cold front puts europe in the grip of subzero temperatures. ♪ >> who will host the 2018 and 2022 soccer world cups? that is what officials in zurich

are gearing up to announce tomorrow night. the big question is whether or not their decision will have any credibility at all. allegations of corruption have surrounded the bidding process. members of the executive committee of been suspended for allegedly selling their votes. now russian prime minister vladimir putin, his country was once one of the favorites to win, says he's not even going to bother to attend the announcement, claiming the whole process has been tainted by the scandal. >> the first fifa representatives arrived in zurich, where there will face when they turn out to be the organization's biggest scandal. one member from tahiti was a member of the 24-person executive committee until recently. the ultimate decision makers for rich country hosts the world cup. it is alleged he offered his vote for cash to journalists disguised as a businessman. he has appealed his 1-year suspension. and that legal move could put a big question mark over the decision on thursday.

his attorney warns that fifa runs the risk of having their world cup vote rendered invalid if we follow illegal procedure, and the court of arbitration for sport revokes the suspension. in short, if the court of arbitration for sport lists the suspension due to lack of evidence -- glyphs the suspension due to lack of evidence, the decision on the world cup will be invalid because he had the right to vote. that is not the fifa president's only problem. at the beginning of the week, the bbc made an additional allegations of corruption against fifa. his report said that three other members of the executive committee accepted bribes of more than $10 million in connection with the bankrupt marketing agency isl. they have said the accusations are unfounded. this time, the announcement of who is getting the world cup will be anything but a celebration of soccer.

>> for more, i am joined by our sports analyst. this is such a confusing story. start with russia. why exactly is it that vladimir putin is so upset? >> it is very strange with his absence from zurich, when he is probably russia's biggest hitter. i think the momentum that swung behind some of the rival bids a good the last few days, perjurer we spain and portugal, has led the russians to pick up this pretense. so putin does not get attached to a losing bid, which would do him no good back home. >> all right. this whole procedure though, it has been so seriously tainted by these allegations of corruption. in do you think fifa's decision on who will host the world cups will have any credibility? >> it is unlikely. let's be clear, the reputation is in tatters. whoever wins the right to host the world cup, their fans that come will be very happy and

rejoicing. fans around the rest of the world are seeing fifa acting in a strange manner and asking themselves whether they are proper custodians of the beautiful game. >> what can fifa do to prevent this and stop the corruption so we do not have this problem again? >> it is not the worst time the sporting organization has been caught in such a scandal. they could follow the example of the olympics committee who had to reform significantly in 1998 after similar scandals about how the games were awarded. it introduced much greater transparency and even forbid bidding nations from dealing directly with the executive committee members. i think that would be a first step amongst many that are required to try and restore credibility to fifa. >> it is a place to start. thank you very much. two of egypt's main opposition parties say they will not contest the second round of

voting in the parliamentary elections set for sunday. the muslim brotherhood feels they can it it's pulled out of the election receptor winning no seats in the first round. accusing the government of vote fraud. the parties can it its control the fifth of the seats in the outgoing parliament. they say it was rigged in favor of president mubarak's pop opposition party. other parties will boycott the vote, cajoling the second biggest bloc in the last parliament but won only two seats in the first run. spanish police in hamburg and of an international crime network that was providing fake passports to people associated with al qaeda. one nigerian and six pakistanis have been placed under arrest in the barcelona. three people were also arrested in the bangkok, including the alleged ringleader. it is thought members of the group blamed for the to designate attacks in bombay, india were among those who supplied the false documents. an interpol has issued an alert for the wikileaks founder for the so-called double-thso-

called red notice asks anyone with information about the back to report to police. he's wanted for questioning. the 39-year-old denies the charges. his internet platform, wikileaks, shot to the diplomatic row this week with the publication of some 250,000 classified u.s. cables. crisis, a crisis, a crisis. >> it looks like the crisis in the eurozone to last until next year. that is the message you get when you consider what the european union is doing. on wednesday, europe extended those lineate rules for state aid to banks and companies into a dozen 11. those were relaxed at the beginning of the financial crisis. the plan had been to go back to normal at the end of this year. but the financial crisis, as we all know, turned into a debt crisis. >> european competition commissioner is helping to in his work processing bank bailout applications sen. but as a realist, he knows the

beleaguered sector still sorely needs external help. so he has extended the framework of rules set of two years ago, allowing eu governments to bail out lenders under looser terms. >> i cannot and defined in precise terms what can be considered as normal functioning of the financial market. but i think everybody understands what is abnormal. so when the normal conditions will come back, we will immediately put in place in normal regime for the financial sector. >> many in brussels would relish the return of more stability for the bureau, which has been the target of increased speculation. besides spain and portugal, some analysts believe belgium and italy may also need a bailout. eu parliamentarians want decisive action. >> we need a common approach to send a signal to the markets that the euro will survive in

the short term and even after 50 years. the eurozone is growing and is resilience. there is no way private speculation will dismantle such a thriving currency zone. but we need our land back on board with the european mainstream. >> the general sentiment is that economic powerhouse germany should focus less on its own interests so that the euro will be less volatile. >> on wednesday, the government in madrid announced more economic changes in hopes of staving off financial market chaos. spanish bonds have been under pressure. yields hitting a record high on tuesday. the reforms include tax cuts for small and medium-size businesses. the country's airports will also be partly privatized, and the government plans to sell off part of the country's huge lottery. that's welcome in unemployment benefits. spain's jobless rate is the eu's highest a 20% the changes in spain helped boost stock markets. shares in the spanish bank's went ahead 8% on wednesday.

strong economic news from the u.s., including an improvement in the private sector job creation, gives dogs in your their biggest one-day lived in three months. investors also enjoyed a rally on wall street. we talked about the positive moves at the new york stock exchange. >> 93,000 jobs created in the private sector in the month of november. that was the biggest increase in three years. and it is still not enough to really get the high employment rate down, but it is a step in the right direction. and for the we had consecutive job growth in the private sector. so some good news from that area on friday. on friday, by the way, we will get the big job data that will be published by the labor department. >> what else is pushing stocks higher on this wednesday? >> the euro. we saw the euro under heavy pressure for the month of november, roughly dropping a

good 8%. and now, on the first trading day of december, we see a little bit of strength in the euro. so we see pressure on the dollar. that is another big reason why the market started very, very healthy in the first trading day of december. >> thank you. led to get a look at how the markets ended the session on wednesday. the ending was fairly nice. the dax closed the session up by more than 2.5%. the euro stoxx 50 also up by 2.3 peas and in the new york, stocks rallied on that report showing private sector job creation in november. at its strongest level in three years. in afternoon trading, the dow up by more than 2%. the euro going for $1.3127.

while the rim of the eurozone continues to fray, germany's economy has not led to this robust in the years. the optimism is showing itself in the stores. consumers are spending more. retail sales rose in october by 2%, the biggest increase this year. >> cosmetics and clothes are pretty bill early in demand at the moment, but the trend is industrywide. it seems the stronger economy is giving domestic consumers the confidence they need to loosen their purse strings. retail sales in october increased by 2.3% in comparison to the previous month. the german retail federation is forecasting 1.5% growth for 2010. crucially for the retail sector, it seems likely that domestic consumption will continue strongly through the christmas season. when germans traditionally spend the most money. >> a huge german desman from

russia is now official. the german energy giant has agreed to sell its entire 3.5% stake in the russian gas monopoly gas prom. russia's state investment a is taking that share. the germany company is said to take in 3.4 billion euros from the sell-off, which is aimed at reducing the 45 billion euros debt of the company. the german energy supplier is already sold of equity or about 10 billion euros. all right, back to heather delisle. >> thank you. wednesday's world aids day, and the un has been warning the complacency among young people is undermining progress against the virus. events are happening around the globe to raise awareness about hiv/aids. the u.n. says there has been a resurgence of the virus in the u.s. and western europe linked to sexual behavior. in eastern europe and western asia, there has been a surge due to drug use. in global terms, there has been

a reduction of infection. the firm -- for the first time in 11 years, members of the osce mission are meeting in astana, supporters of and to reinvigorate the body. but this court arisen over fundamental issues like human rights and state sovereignty. the german chancellor has joined the u.s. and the calling for all orosi nations to observe basic human rights. the european union has officially launched its new diplomatic service. the european external actions service. the foreign policy had says she hopes it allows the to be more active internationally. instead of running foreign policy from several different institutions, this will be a vehicle for a much more streamlined approach. >> with its new diplomatic service, the eu hopes to respond more quickly to international emergencies like their earthquake that devastated haiti in january. >> we already have

representation in the 145 countries. until now, it had been maintained by delegations and the eu commission. these are being we dedicated and staff with personnel other than these experts. we're setting a full-fledged e you embassies with all that entails. >> in return, smaller eu states pledge to shut down their missions and find their representation from diplomats and offices from brussels. their bosses the eu high representatives of foreign affairs, who is in charge of 1200 the elements around the globe. she's been to your shipping the new diplomatic corps. it is already being criticized as colorless and lacking in political clout. >> what the new european service needs is an iron lady who fights to prevent crises, manages crises, and guards against any relapse into national egotism. >> there was little fanfare for the official launch of the eu's new diplomatic service.

ashton declined to celebrate publicly or even to grant interviews. >> it is not a very glamorous star for europe's new external action service. the phone -- they were demanding the phone number to keep lines to the big and self- confidence member states. however, as of now, ashton and her team can prove her qualities may be already during the next crisis to come. >> having snow and sub 0 temperatures are disrupting travel in the northern europe. britain is having its worst early winter weather in almost two decades. in the polling, police say eight people have frozen to death. parts of northern germany have seen a record might -- -18 degrees celsius. in the south, the extreme weather is making the tough going. >> people in munich walking to a blanket of snow this morning. it caused problems for

motorists, but some pedestrians welcomed the change in the weather. >> i like it. an autopsy wake up in the morning. >> i cannot complain. it is ok if you have a warm coat and hat for other north, police and emergency services were busy for much of the night, helping trigger stranded in the snow as temperatures plunged to minus 12 degrees. other european countries have also been hit by the sudden arrival of winter weather. many spanish resorts of snowfall. commuters in britain faced delays as the heavy snow disrupted transport links. gatwick in edinburgh airports are closed, and new castle has been experiencing disruption. airports are closed in france and switzerland. traffic came to a virtual standstill. >> it to me three hours to go 500 meters. >> poland was also affected by the adverse conditions. in the north of the country, temperatures fell to -20.

and there's little hope of warmer weather sen. more snow is forecast. >> back in a minute with "in depth." >> stay with us. ♪ >> knew at the dw-tv store, the beethoven project. with -- and -- on dvd, nine world famous symphonies, and the award winning documentary from dw-tv. the beethoven project, the dvd collection at the dw-tv store. >> on his the point of great success, four young students at the world famous school in dresden in to take the world of dance by storm. brimming with passion and

ambition. obsess with dancing. starting december 4 on dw-tv. >> welcome back. december 1 is world aids day. it first took place in 1988 when the united nations dedicated the day to raising awareness of the aids pandemic. the syndrome is estimated to have killed around 30 million people since it was first in the fight in 1981. and it continues to spread. hiv infection rates in china and in india have increased dramatically. but sub-saharan africa remains the region's worst affected. significantly more than half of all the people in the world living with aids. the disease is the single largest cause of mortality in the region. and it sent life expectancy plummeting. it is no longer the immediate death sentence that was once, but aids and hiv, the virus

which causes it, still carry a massive social stigma. >> hiv is the virus that can cause isolation. many affected people tend to retreat from social life and often face discrimination. being infected with hiv still carries the stigma, and people living with the virus are often blamed because they contracted the virus by sharing needles when taking drugs or having unprotected sex. people with hiv have had to face many prejudices' since the 1980's when the first puzzling cases were reported in the u.s. for most early patients, the result was almost always fatal. the first effective treatment became available in the mid- 1990s. hiv has spread around the world and keeps advancing over the past 10 years, new infections that nearly doubled in eastern

europe and central asia, reaching 1.4 million. in latin america, there are some 1.4 million hiv-positive people, but there infection rates are falling. in the south and southeast asia, the figure is over four million. but the region with by far the highest number of people with hiv is africa, 22.5 million. every day, 1000 people die of the effects of aids-related disease in south africa alone. for years, authorities tendered effective treatment programs, though activists were demanding more education, prevention, and treatments. few in africa can afford the expensive treatment for hiv/aids. in europe, the goal of eradicating the virus is still a distant dream. in eastern european countries like ukraine, hiv is spreading rapidly. there is a lack of staff, prevention programs, an anti-

retro viral drugs but only half of ukraine's hiv-positive patients access to treatment. by contrast, in germany, every hiv-positive person who seeks it receives treatment. nevertheless, it is a lifelong illness, and there's no vaccine. but with the help of a cartel of anti-retro viral drugs, the reproduction of the virus in the body can be altered. for those with the access to the right treatment, hiv has become unmanageable illness. >> these days, people infected with hiv have the benefit of a new generation of antiviral drugs designed to prevent aids from developing. of course, that option is only available if you have the money to pay for it. millions of people in the developing countries do not even have access to basic health care, let alone specialized treatment. in industrialized nations, thousands of people with hiv are leading productive lives, things to meet these new developments. in our next report, we look at a

man in the berlin who has learned to live with the disease than to need treatment regimens and hold out promise for thousands of others to become infected. >> he is gay and a teddy positive. eight years ago, he and his partner were tested for hiv. reassured when the tests came back negative, they stopped using condoms. but one of them came down with a high fever. he took another test. >> i really did not expect to be hiv-positive after testing negative just eight weeks earlier. i fell into a pretty deep hole and just felt terrible. >> his partner was infected with hiv, but the test failed to pick it up. he was actually positive and caught it. if he had caught the virus 20 years ago, he would probably be dead by now. today, modern medicine enables

hiv infected people in germany to live a relatively normal life. >> i have accepted the virus. the virus is now my virus. it belongs to me, and everyone has to die some how. some died in a motor bike accidents. others of cancer but i am sure i will die sometime from the side effects of the tablets. but whether that is 20, 30, or five years from now, no one knows, so i just enjoy every day. >> but enjoying life with hiv is not always that simple. the required therapy involves aggressive pills for an aggressive virus. >> i remember the first generation of tablets seven years ago. i was so dizzy after taking the tabloids, i could not walk. i had trouble sleeping, diarrhea. i only needed to see the tablets to start gagging. it was pretty bad. >> well his body fights the

virus, he fights, too. staying active, taking his dog for walks, writing his motorbike. he wants his life to be a success, personally as well as professionally. ♪ >> at his workplace in a berlin bank, he was open right from the start with his colleagues about the virus and his medicine. he led the know that normal physical contact is completely safe. >> he is very open about it, and he is just like any other colleague here. he does not get special treatment. kingston incoming as the better informed. i was even surprised by some things. there's not much more than that. just that his cell phone always rings at 10 when he has got to take his pills. >> hiv-positive and reliant on pills.

that is something researchers here at the institute are looking to e on finding a vaccine for the virus. but despite the work of some of the best researchers in the field, it has proved elusive. few expect a breakthrough anytime soon. >> originally, people hoped we would be able to develop a vaccine very quickly. but it is very frustrating that after so many years, none of the work done in the leading labs have come up with the result. >> but there have been great advances in the treatment of hiv-infected people. a week ago, he came for a blood test. today, he gets the results. it is good news. his boat -- his white blood cell count is high. live with hiv has changed. visible symptoms of the virus are practically a thing of the past.

>> for example, a hollowness in the face, thin arms and face, and getting in belly, you see that a lot less these days, as well as a deterioration of nerves in the arms and legs. >> some researchers are even already viewing it is a chronic disease. nevertheless, he is worried. he wears this tattoo as a signal of the dangers of sexual complacency. but he is also keen to show, yes, i am hiv-positive, but i am doing well. >> i am not scared of the future. i am enjoying life today, and i hope i will enjoy it tomorrow, too. >> medical advisers have given him reason for hope. he pays under a private pension plan, and he aims to ensure that at 80. >> that has been "in depth" for

world aids day. the un wants the complacency among young people is causing a new surge of a dead infections in industrialized countries. -- of hiv infections in industrialized countries. thank you for watching. ♪ captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- ♪ ♪

>> beyond googling, looking up friends and acquaintances and data generally on the search engine google is so popular, it has a name, "googling." but when it comes to computer snoopg, googling is just the tip of the iceberg. online databases permit prying eyes to peer into divorce records, arrests, lawsuits, business property holdings, personal property holdings, current addresses, phone numbers some engines list maiden names, birth dates and social security numbers. can anyone with a home computer and an internet connection be big brother? is privacy obsolete? we'll ask evan hendricks and stuart pratt both experts in the collection and usage of

information. if. for such a small word it packs a wallop. if i live to a hundred. if social security isn't enough. if my heart gets broken. if she says yes. we believe if should never hold you back. if should be managed with a plan that builds on what you already have. together we can create a personal safety net, a launching pad, for all those brilliant ifs in the middle of life. you can call on our expertise and get guarantees for the if in life. after all, we're metlife.

>> gentlemen, we will co. is the average person aware of how much -- welcome. the average person aware of how much data is obtainable by the internet? stuart pratt? >> uh-oh, john, i think the lead for the show speaks volumes about how society and our lives have changed, the ability to going lg ourselves, to see what is on the internet is something that tens of millions --. >> you want information it would be the shoe leather factor, you have to retain a private eye, he would have to be hiding behind lampposts and try to get into files now. now it's at your finger tips. >> i don't think that's quite true: there's some information on the intet net that is easy to get but there's a lot of information controlled under federal laws and is not readily available through a browser on

the internet. >> where do you start? you start by going lg? -- googling? i ask you evan hendricks. >> that's the easy thing. but if you pull out your wallet and start buying things, there's no way anyone can realize how much information is available, the property records, divorce records. bank records. >> the googling process will give you names, date of birth, place of birth, mother's maiden name --. >> sometimes, yes. >> if it's listed on at genology page by a relative who loves that. is that the extent of the data? >> it depends on what has been put out about us on those web sites. sometimes if you look at the what the kids are doing with space books they are loading personal information on web sites. all that depends. we need to understand there are central repositories that have this information. >> let's talk about this i

ntelius, do i have that correctly? does it examine every public record on a person for a fee whether it's local government or federal government or state government? >> it's one of many companies that their business is going to all those public records, which were created by taxpayers by the way, putting the information in their own private companies and -- computers and selling it. >> this is what i have that they'll deliver for you for $29.95 or if you want a full write up for $49.95. it will give you up to ten prior addresses and phone numbers for the individual, a maiden name, the age, the current name, the relatives, the roommates, the neighbors -- that's the beginning dossier. if you go further to the larger one you can examine thousands of private records including any criminal records, any arrests and any jurisdiction no matter how small throughout entire

country. isn't that quite incredible? >> well, it is incredible. but i think evan said it just right. a lot of these are public records. john, we are in the middle of, i think, a debate about the extent of the availability of public records. i guess really the question is what kind of public records should remain absolutely public. keep in mind that a public record is fundamental to our democratic ideals. it isn't about pulling data back and saying it should be under the control of government. >> how about judgments or how about divorce records? or how about lawsuits? how about tax liens? these are all available. >> they are. >> and you can get it through this particular web site. the value of your home, facts about the home, smalllaims court rulings, bankruptcies --. >> all public information. and flagstaff there is good -- and there is good reason for it being public information. what has changed is where it used to be in a dusty filing

cabinet in a kraus, now -- courthouse, now it's in a database and anybody can get it provide they pay a fee. the public companies yank it out of the public ground and there's a fundamental consistency of inaccurate data through the records. you could be judged on information that is not entirely accurate. >> isn't it an invitation to stalking and identity theft? >> let's take a couple of exams, criminal histories. he is right, they used to sit in a dusty file drawer. the problem was the daycare center couldn't find the pedophile record in the dusty file drawer. when you make it national you allow an employer to make sure we know the kind of employee that we're putting in a position of great responsibility. that's a good outcome. >> if you were going to form a liaison, a partership with a business partner you would want

to know. >> absolutely. >> and it would certainly be a legitimate problem. there are -- lawyers, of course turn immediately to this to find out about their client or who is testifying against them and it's a rich resource. journalists examine their sources frequently by going to the net. i'm not sure they want to -- i don't know many journalist who's want to shel out $49.95. they probably poke around for a couple of hours. but the open sesame, the golden key is the social security number. >> the social security number is the first tool of choice if you want to unlock someone's files and it's the first tool of choice for an identity theevment ate loves the thief to get credit in the name of the innocent victim. >> there are ways for a reasonableibly -- reasonabley clever money maker, that is,

someone who wants to make money it's called phishing. that's sends out e-mails, is that correct? >> we're educating consumers. more consumers are learning not to respond to an e-mail saying reenter your password. >> or a bank account perhaps. >> i want to go to the social security number. we believe that an s.s.n. is a sensitive item of information and we believe it should be controlled under a security program. the idea that the social security number is somehow out on the internet without control, available to the general public so that you and i can look at each other's social security numbers that's not where we want to be. >> or used as a student identifier at a university, bad idea, video stores, bad idea. we need to rollback uses of it. >> what about using your inteshal revenue service number.

wouldn't that be a good identifier to substitute for social security and have extremely limited opening of the safe, so to speak, the privacy safe value, or you could use your e.i.n. nurks employee identification number. wouldn't that be better? >> if you have a specific number and they can't use it for other purposes, yes, that would be a step forward. >> evan mentioned socials and accuracy. he talked about accuracy of databases. one of the reasons the social security is used in protected database it's that we have 40 million consumers who move every year in this country. we have three million last names that change due to marriage and divorce. there's a lot of things that change about us. there are databases that consequential like a credit report where accuracy is paramount and where a social security is part of the building block. a credit report isn't available through the google search. it's controlled under a law

called the fair credit reporting act. >> people don't seem to be bothered about giving up personal information. you have match.com it has 50 million subscribers. this is a data service. are you familiar with this? >> absolutely. >> evan i don't want you to commit to saying something you don't want to say, but have you seen it? >> yes. if uconn sent to it there's no invasion of privacy because uconn sent to it. >> you mean anticipation of reward. >> absolutely. >> that would apply to contests or giveaways. >> or going on the jerry springer show. >> you would consent to match.com with a idea of finding a friendly mate a psychological profile of yourself? >> maybe. the world we're starting to live in now that begs the question, when and where should i put that kind of information out. google by the way --. >> myspace.com it's a favorite of students. >> it is.

>> what about google? >> i think consumers are learning through search engines that where i put personal information on to a page of a web site, that information can be found and brought forward in a search. i think that more consumers should understand that because we should take care and protect sensitive personal information about us. that is something we can do and over time we can become more educated. >> we're going to get to this question right now, and -- or in a moment, and that is at government, the role of the government, particularly, is there a zone that the government could prescribe that a -- a hacker or a corporation, a corporate hacker, could not get into? it would be zoned off and if you did get into it, you would be >> we're joined on the telephone

by chairman cliff stearns, chairman of the commerce, trade and consumer protection panel of the united states house of representatives. i would welcome the chairman by notifying him we are here on the set and stuart pratt is with us. he is the president and c.e.o. of consumer data industry association. can you give me some idea, can you volumize how much data is in your association, by the way, stuart? we represent a lot of different models, consumer credit associations --. >> how many --. >> they have probably 250 million credit reports and we're updating four billion data elements a month. >> that's a sizable amount, is it not, evan hendricks who is editor and publisher of "privacy times". by the way he has written this great book, a great read --. >> named book of the month. >> credit scores and credit

reports, how the system work and what you can do. do you want to comment about anything he has said? >> information about social security very valuable. one of the tough things about sit that we don't own data about us. when companies like stuart collects it, they own our names, we don't own them that's why they can traffic in our names. >> when you own a volume of data you can sell it for a subs shal commercial reward. >> it's an extremely lucrative business. >> we have the chairman who was patiently waiting while i introduced the guests at the table. can you tell us what the u.s. government doing is in this general area? >> perhaps a lot of people will remember that choicepoint had a type of breach and lexisnexis also did as well as lots of people. >> tell us about --. >> i could list the number of people but the bottom line is these breaches mean that

people's personal identifiable information is made public and thieves could use it for predatory purposes. one thing that was not mentioned in the discussion i heard you folks talk about was credit cards. a lot of these credit cards are being -- the information is being sold to someone, he uses it for his own benefit, he or she, and lots of times it could be used for nef fairous purposes which goes to some of the concerns we have with the war on terrorism, a lot of people could take credit cards and use it to buy things -- before you stop it. now, near congress, we have a bill that passed out of my subcommittee called -- it's h.r. 4127, it's called the data accountability and trust act. i don't think most americans realize this but right now there's only a few states that have rules requiring security for personal information, that is, rules that have been standardized, and take into

account the size, nature and scope of person's activity, the state of technology, and the entire cost implementing the security procedures. some firms are not spending very much money and others are. this bill that i have passed out in the subcommittee is basically going to establish the rules through the federal trade commission and then we're going to put in penalties in the cases of breaches of information. we're going to have audits by the f.t.c. on information broker security. we put together a whole list of things that these companies must do in the event there's a breach. that is something that the state of california has already done. and they are to be commended. the bill that i have is patterned a little bit after california, but if you have 50 states with 50 different laws it's going to be difficult for the security companies to comply adequately. so we're putting in a federal standard which we think will be

stnd we'll have protection for the sensitive information. >> isn't it true that corporations have made advances for the private sector in collecting information than does the u.s. government? aren't state gofertz the u.s. government -- the u.s. government requires a warrant for some kinds of information, does it not, whereas, what it does to evade that, we hear, for example, the pentagon which has an enormous snoop potential -- i don't mean to use that word in a bad sense, but let's say monitoring potential, and all college students, i believe, are said to be within the per view of the pentagon. that's obtained through a contract that the pentagon issues with, i guess, choicepoint? >> it's a different private company but they are basically trying to compile records on students so they can reach out to them and recruit them into

the military. >> what do you think of the pentagon having dossiers on every young person in america, mr. chairman? >> i haven't heard that honestly. it's obviously a huge task and i don't think it's being done in the light that you are talking about. i think they are probably trying to identify those individuals that would be a high risk in terms of potential terror to this country, and i think that's what they are concentrating on. i don't think they are going to the average student and developing a dossier. i their doing a scan mechanism to find out is this particular student a u.s. citizen? is he a student from a country which is hos aisle or wants to indicate or has a past history of trying to hurt the united states? those the students they probably should watch carefully. >> is it engaged in domestic spying with undercover intelligence agencies, spying on churches, anti-bush political

organizations and war protests? didn't we have a story on that in the press not too long ago. >> nbc. >> nbc. you don't see your legislation as curk any department or bureau or agency of the u.s. government is that correct? >> that's correct. this is going to the private industry and ultimately to government in how they keep this very sensitivementunt of information on person's activities and requires for the first time to identify to the person in the event there's a breach so you'll get a notification that if choicepoint or lexisnexis or bank of america had a breach as well as banks, timewarner. i've have lists of companies that have had breaches. in some case it's not a breach that matters because the information is encrypted so it won't hurt anybody n. other cases it's pretty transparent and we need to have rules in

place that the individuals be notified and more importantly that security is in place in the corporations to protect it in a manner that is reputable. >> i'm not making the pentagon into a whipping boy, but i have discovered when i -- what i said earlier, it was revealed last year that the pentagon had amassed a database including anti-war protesters which poses, some believe, a great throat our privacy by the pentagon that perhaps the f.b.i. -- the program is called talon. does that cross your jurisdiction or your desk? >> no, it has not. the -- that -- the pentagon is pretty much under the armed services committee or the appropriation commit dwlee deals with fund -- committee that deals with funding for the armed services which is the pentagon. but i suspect that after 9/11 there has been a hyped up intelligence source. my colleague porter gos who --

goss, who took over the c.i.a., i have talked to him. there's a heightened thought of what to do because of potential terrorism. >> have you heard about the n.s.a. we know about the warrantless eaves dropping and the flap over that. the president seems to not only successfully not been hurt by it, but he comes out a winner because the congress has come away from it because they don't want to appear soft on security. but the n.s.a., it is said, put cookies on those computers that inquierd into the n.s.a. have you heard anything about that? >> no, i know it's cookies are put on my computer all the time. it's not only cookies we had a bill dealing with the spyware and that has not passed. >> do you think that the federal government is doing enough with this new phenomenon where a person's identity cannot only be

penetrated and exhausted but also stolen? >> i think the government does not have in place the legislation. this bill has not passed that i have. we don't have the bill in place dealing with pretexting, protecting information from your cell phone. and i think the government has to pass these and we must get through the political donny brook and pass these. i don't think the federal government is doing enough and i'm hoping this bill and mineac. that is something that the >> bio metric identification means that you stand in front of an instrument and you open your eye and the instrument reads your eye and your receipt in a is -- retina is yours and no one else's and that goes on a card. with that card is the listing of your life, whether or not you have felies or misdemeanor arrests or whatever how much money you owe or whatever is necessary to clear you. this identification, for example, instead of focusing on things when you go through a

screener in the apartment you are folk -- airport, you are focusing on people. the likelihood that they are terrorists. does this play any role in what we're talking about here today, bio metrics? it assumes that you are going to appear before a machine and we really don't want that if we're placing a telephone call from a -- from a magazine that has a listing of something that we want to buy. do you follow me? >> i don't think the american people are going to embrace the idea of a holistic card that has all information about me in one single place including a bio metric. you'll find services where i have access to a building because i need access. >> security clearing. >> i don't think you'll see the american people going all the way down there. >> if it's a telephone you can't make it function. you can't produce the card. the card will not be

recognizable over the phone. am i right about that? what about an identity card that is being advocated by some members of the congress. >> there's danger there's as there are with biometrics because that still depends on software to translate it through computers. the software can be spooked. if we think biometrics are the silver bullet and people can steal identify that will make it worse. there's much better ways of this than the silver bullet. >> if that sense we'd be with evan. if you are going down the road, you better do it responsibly. we need the ark tech tou >> you know who scott mcneely is at microsystems? is he a member of youour organization or this company? he is not. he said this in "reason" magazine, a libertarian magazine, you have zero privacy anyway. get over it. that was his quote in 2004.

what is -- what is corporate snooping today? >> we don't see what we're doing as snooping. let me give you a couple of examples. when we -- when our members compile a criminal history record of an individual, it's regulared -- regulated under the fair credit reporting act. it's regulated under federal law and bounded by federal law. we like. that i would also tell you another example, credit reports. credit reports vouch for me. i get my loan. i get my student loans. i buy my house. i buy my cars. i live my life here in the united states because a credit report vouches for me even though a lender has never met me before. sometimes i think we don't see the benefit of the information built into the databases. >> let me talk about -- there's a fundamental corporate snooping which is that companies like choicepoint will keep records on us and they won't even let us get access to information about

us so we can see if it's accurate or not accurate. basically they are keeping secret record systems and that is snooping that is just not consistent with american tradition and something we have to bring an end to. >> corporations sell those records when they amass the dossiers. >> they not only sell them but they can sell them to the government for investigative purposes and surveillance purposes. >> corporate profit. >> absolutely. >> our members are not in the dossier business. our members are --. >> even scott mcneely if i could sit with him and asking questions he would say that's private i'm not going to tell you. >> have you heard of axciom? what is it? i understand they have 1.6 billion names, addresses, phone numbers and other personal information that a junk mail marketer tried to download after a computer server in 2002 and

2003. does d- that hacker succeed? >> did he not succeed. he got the data and used it for junk mailg. somebody got call. that is ultimately the most important thing for us, evan. there's consequences to the actions. they are a successful company that provides market services for american businesses. it provides employment screening services for american businesses. >> when 9/11 hit they hired wesley clark to go to the government to sell their services to the government. that's an example of this wall crumbling. >> we have no time for this but give me an examine. medical record keeping. if you are in australia and you fall down and nobody knows -- you keel over and nobody knows what your record is, they don't have to call your wife or children to find out where it is and on and on. while you pass out they press a button with what they find in your wallet and they can find

your medical information. it's great. >> i think medical information when fair information practices are applied to it could benefit consumers. >> do the pluses outweigh the minuses? >> it depends. good uses of information are good and bad uses are bad. >> thank you very much. it's a big issue and