>> this will come to." >> welcome. >> budapest -- just before hungary takes the european union presidency. europe's air-traffic gradually returned to normal, but thousands of passengers are still stranded. spain's legendary lot of brings holiday cheer to the lucky winners. >> a controversy amid media law in hungary tiding control of news outlets has met with protest at home and harsh criticism abroad. governing party passed legislation on tuesday and the

new law means penalties can be imposed on print and electronic mail -- electronic media. this takes place just as budapest since the presidency of the european union. >> the parliamentary opposition protesting against the restriction on freedom of expression. the criticisms have been echoed by the european continent -- european countries across the continents. >> article 11 says every citizen has the right to freedom of expression and every citizen has a right to information and pass on information without the authorities interfering. i think the commission, which is the guardian of the trees, has to react. >> as the fur trade -- the future european union president, hungary has responsibility for the image of the european union in front of the world.

>> but the government's appears to have a different interpretation of that responsibility. the main opposition hundred and socialist party has urged the president not to sign a lot and refer it to the constitutional court instead. >> january 1st is the day hungary takes over presidency of the european union. we asked our correspondent how the new law is being received among the european union politicians. >> privately, people say it looks like a throwback to a totalitarian repression when hungary was a soviet satellite. what is going on, the timing is appalling. privately, there is a slightly different tone, that it could be seen contrary to the charter of fundamental rights, but the questions of policy of me a plurality are a matter for national authorities. the commission has no intention of making any statements today,

but the timing is deeply embarrassing, exactly the day hungary takes over running the european union for six months. we have this apparently regressive law and remember, they have said it will not stop the hon. press and other media criticizing hungary and the presidency if they want. people are confused and the commission wants to see the detail of what this law might entail. >> the united states senate has ratified a landmark treaty on arms reduction with russia. the final vote on the start treaty concluded just minutes ago. 71 senators voted in favor, 26 against. that gives it the two-thirds majority needed. the u.s. and russia want to reduce the number of nuclear warheads deployed to 1500 each. the passing of the treaty comes after a long tussle in the senate. the vote is seen as a key victory for the obama administration.

earlier, we asked our washington correspondent how president obama was able to gain republican support for the ratification of the start treaty. >> i think president obama was very smart in splitting the republican party by saying i will give another $85 billion to modernize nuclear weapons of the united states, so some republican senators said we will support this new start. other republicans, like senator dick lugar, he has been in the soviet union and russia very often and knows about foreign- policy. when people like him say this is the right thing to do, they just do it and don't care much about the rest of the republican party. in the end, i think it was

clever to bring other politicians like the former president bush and henry kissinger into the discussion. they did -- they support the new start treaty with russia and when they said we will support the treaty, other republican politicians, senators in the senate also supported the treaty. >> president obama has signed a law allowing gays to serve openly in the military for the first time. the new lot overturns the don't ask, don't tell policy which forced game men and women to keep quiet about their sexual orientation or face dismissal. the ban will not be lifted immediately. the president and his top military advisers determine how to implement the law. students across italy have been taking to the streets to protest university reforms treated

thousands joined demonstrators in the capital and other cities and police blocked off parts of central rum to block a repeat of last week's violent clashes. the prime minister's government says it will save billions of europe while strengthening higher education. the upper house is due to vote on wednesday. in ivory coast, they have urged the international community to use force to oust the incumbent. the designated prime minister says international sanctions have had no effect. he has refused to step down since the vote last month. international observers and the united nations say he lost. >> there is tension in the streets of abidjan. they're out in force, but they

could be a target because even support of the opposition. -- because of that you and the support of the opposition. >> i am concerned for the mission. it will put our peacekeepers in a critical situation in the coming few days. >> supporters of the opposition leader are on edge. they say gunmen have been roaming the neighborhood that night, kidnapping and killing activists. this was the defiant leaders response. >> i call on you to become, the united nations and french will leave our country. i am ready to talk with the opposition even to the rebels that still support him. >> the un is sending an extra 500 peacekeepers to the ivory coast. >> let's talk about a very

naughty german bank. >> deutsche bank has agreed to pay nearly $554 million to authorities to settle a case involving fraudulent tax shelters which shielded investors from paying taxes. the case began when there is a broader crackdown which provoke -- which promotes tax evasion. >> for years, the u.s. has been collecting evidence on tax shelters deutsche bank offered between 1996 and 2002. they concluded the package cost the american government billions of dollars in lost revenue. >> the investigation uncovered practices at investment bank, bankers trust, which is taken over in 1999.

bankers trust was put in charge of managing high asset clients, apparently directing into illicit tax shelters. deutsche bank says it's pleased the investigation is over and says it had already made provisions for the fine. as part of the settlement, deutsche bank will pay more than half a billion dollars to the u.s. government. it must also refrain from offering tax shelters like these in the future. it has to accept and outside experts that will monitor compliance. in a similar settlement last february, swiss bank, ubs, agreed to pay the u.s.'s $780 million for helping american customers high income in swiss bank accounts. >> earlier, i spoke to a banking expert and i asked him to explain more about these tax shelters. >> i can't tell you anything

about the exact business they have done, but they are done to help to escape tax with help of the international banks. to try to get money to a place where they can pay the least taxes. that is nothing new. the question is, is it in accordance with local tax laws. apparently, deutsche bank did too much in this case. >> the settlement of $550 million, will this be painful for deutsche bank? >> on one hand, it is an awful lot of money, but on the other hand, the story is over. so it is a once news and never again. that is good for the stock price of the databank. they have to have this equity like all the big banks to cover the regulatory demands, so it is a good thing it is finished and

forgotten so we can look into the future without any problem from the past. >> how did this go on this along without making headlines? >> seen in, both agreed there had to be some kind of negotiation. this would help reduce the damage done to the bank in a way that is a very fair by the american authorities to do it this way. i think that what exchanged of deutsche bank did not agree to really confess and bring up a very clear statement. >> thank you. let's have a look at some market indices in detail. we go to frankfurt where the index closed down word. the 50 index closed down as well. in new york, the dow jones is currently going up. the euro is currently trading for one $0.3091.

the gi w said it the german economy is likely to go by 0.7% in the final quarter of 2007 -- of 2010. they described an increase in industrial orders indicating demand remains strong in the biggest economy in europe. economists point out it is not domestic consumption and powering german growth. most new orders came from abroad. the cost of importing to germany as rising. the federal statistics office says import costs have jumped by 10% in the last 12 months, showing the biggest increase in a decade. this reflects rising prices for energy like oil and natural gas and even more so for metals and raw materials. ira our prices have doubled since november of 2009 while the price of imported grain and coffee increased by half over the same time.

>> thank you. europe's main international airports are struggling to return to normal after days of snow and freezing conditions which left many passengers stranded. the harsh winter weather caused such severe problems, the european union officials are considering new rules on minimum infrastructure requirements. >> step-by-step, flight traffic has been picking gap as our operations return to near normal at frankfurt airport. all in the 60 flights were cancelled on wednesday, down from several hundred a day earlier in the week. >> the situation has clearly east. all three runways are operational and we can make full use of our capacity. the traffic flow is back on track, but the air flow of european traffic has yet to return to normal. capacity's everywhere are being put to full use until winter loses its grip.

>> seats on flights have to be found for 3500 passengers who have been stranded in frankfurt. that comes at a time when travel volume is at its heaviest of the year. both passengers and staff airports have to improvise to make sure people finally get to their destination. >> passengers are advised to contact the airlines and say i have a flight plan to, can i expected to go ahead as scheduled or, are there alternatives? >> from christmas at the latest, airports are expected to have artfully regained operations. until then, it is important travelers remain patient. >> let's hope all of them took out lottery tickets. in spain, the biggest lottery rewarded ticketholders with 2.3 billion heroes and christmas prices. the legendary top prize is being

shared among holders of 2000 tickets. each one is worth 300,000 euros. >> of the main prize, the fat one, and holder of the winning number is in line for a big payout and a musical treat. but it's not about making millionaires. each number is sold 195 and -- 195 times and is said to produce more winners. that is why so many spaniards take part. and, cross their fingers that they will get lucky. let's hope we are lucky, she

says. we do prefer the fat one. we would freak out. we want a big piece of it. with the economic crisis hitting hard, many families can do with the winnings, but the biggest winners it -- the biggest winner is the state, which earns a quarter of the proceeds. >> there are only two shopping days left. people in berlin are buying last-minute christmas gifts for their loved ones. right now. santa claus is preparing to leave the north pole, or in this case, the jolly fellow is writing a way in north england. he is accompanied by his reindeer. there he is. how he manages to delight children all over the world each year, let's face it, that is his secret and we are not going to tell you even if we knew. we will be back in a moment.

>> more information, more service, more options for you. dwworld.de -- get more.

>> welcome back. it is the season of gift-giving. and it would not be christmas without a host of data about consumer spending and new studies on the sociology of gift-giving or getting. take peaking, for example. a british insurance company reports 37% of british adults, not children, take a sneak peek at their guests. snooping over an hour to find them under beds or back of closets. german researchers have been busy on this one with people spending at average of two letters 45 euros on christmas gifts. here is a statistic that may not come as much of a surprise -- women tend to be the better gift

givers, but there are exceptions. >> she's for a christmas present for her boyfriend, a man who has everything, so every year she faces the same challenge. >> it really difficult to find something, especially when you have been doing it for a few years. there is a certain approach you stick to and it's harder year to year. >> and it's not unusual to find yuletide more pressure than necessary. >> it is an onerous task for many people, although gift giving is a voluntary act, we know guests are expected at christmas. we would like everyone who is close to us in as far as

possible to be given some fun chosing -- something chosen especially for them. >> he says it's usually up the value of the gift that counts, he has been studying why people give presents to each other. >> people give gifts have a desire to bond. they do not do it out of convention, but because the relationship is important. so gifts cement social relationships. it is the same all over the world. gift-giving is one of the few truly global phenomena -- in all cultures, people exchanged gifts for special occasions. they have signed up for a course in soap making.

they learn how to manufacture soap by hand and choose the shape, color and fragrance themselves. it is more original than buying expensive cosmetics. >> id like to give handmade soap because it is nice to give something you have made yourself rather than buying or ordering something. it is handmade with love for the person in mind. i decided to give so as a present because i think it's an unusual gift. it is definitely suitable for christmas. it is handmade and created with a personal touch. >> the tradition of gift-giving at christmas has been around barely 200 years in europe and north america. industrialization and higher standards of living led to the commercialization of many aspects of life, including christmas.

it has become a mass phenomenon with strict rules and rituals. as a recipient, you must show pleasure at getting the guest. then, while unwrapping the paper, speculate over what it could be, then the next step is to show how much you like it, whether you mean it or not. >> that's one of the biggest problems in giving a gift -- how it is perceived, whether the recipient sees it as a mark of appreciation or an admission of guilt or other failures. you do not know in advance, and that's wh makes it exciting. >> exciting and unnerving. she still has not found a suitable gift for her boyfriend. she can feel the time ticking away. >> every year, it's the same.

i think it over and over and eds and going to go out and buy something nice. and i don't find anything. time drags on and i have to decide on something at the last minute. >> many people are like this when it comes to buying gifts. but there are different types of gift chasers. for instance, we have last minute givers that always leave it until christmas eve to get president spot. -- to get presents bought. there are sensitive givers that set high standards because their gifts are supposed to express their feelings. then there are the youth you -- you'll tide refuseniks whose refusal to participate can show a lack of enthusiasm. there are boring givers who always give the same presence or money. finally, there are the show-

off's who like to put themselves at the center of attention and express their superiority over others. it can lead to a competition where people try to outdo each other in the gift giving states. a good anthropological example of this is potlatch. this is what some of first nation canadians call their festival where people try to outdo each other. clans would put the extravagant gifts on each other and eventually went broke doing so. there is an element of strategy also because presence are usually reciprocated and it is difficult to tell beforehand how much effort or expense people will get to. nobody wants to be left looking stingy. one further pitfall, there's always the chance against will not go down well, meaning all the time and money spent on it was practically for nothing.

>> in purely economic terms, everyone should buy their own gifts. that would minimize the money wasted. on the other hand, you can buy the socialist team that comes with gift-giving. -- you cannot by the socialist team that comes with a gift giving. -- you cannot by the social esteem that comes with gift- giving. >> she feel's made the right choice with her present. after three hours, their self is -- there soap is ready, perfumed with frankincense and myrrh. it's just right for christmas. >> i have a great feeling as i always like getting from the heart. now i have a heart in my hands that i made myself. >> after her long search, she has also found a guest. it wasn't what she had in mind, but it's something to staff in the stocking nonetheless. -- something to stuff in it is

talking nonetheless. >> i went for an mp3 player because i anyone that one. i will think of a spontaneous present later. he deserves one at some time later, i will buy him something spontaneously. >> but for many, the search for the perfect present goes on it's the effort, the thoughts and feelings that go into the search that value. every guest we give or get encapsulate time devoted to family and friends. >> just a few days left to get those present bought. if you are the last minute type, it is time to start thinking about it. if you are the organized type, you can kick back and stay tuned for more news and information. thank you for watching. here's a look at the latest headlines.

good bye for now.

>> jesus as cultural icon. do you believe that the image of jesus is malleable, not um mutable. specifically, jesus not only changes with the times but jesus becomes redefined with each new social trend. whether that's the civil rights marches or the feminism movement or the peace movement. why does a guest on this interview say that the image of jesus about any new view of about any new view of jesus in america. we'll ask the author of american stephen broth row with another view on the live line. captions produced by visual audio captioning www.visualaudiocaptioning.com barack obama barac barack obama barack obama

if. for such a small if i live to a hundred. if social security isn't enough. if my heart gets broken. if she says yes. we believe if should never hold you back. if should be managed with a plan that builds on what you already have. together we can create a personal safety net, a launching pad, for all those brilliant ifs in the middle of life. you can call on our expertise and get guarantees for the if in life. after all, we're metlife. >> dr. stephen prothero, welcome. your book has a central proposition, what is the proposition in the book?

>> i think there's two. one is that jesus is many and mal oohable, there isn't just one jesus but there's many and the other is that jesus isn't just for christians in the united states, christians love jesus but so do buddhists and jews and hindus and people without any religion whatsoever. >> the jesus image is multiadaptble because we are a 3489 religious nation. >> that's right, we're a multireligious nation but also a christian nation where 80% or so of the country are christians and they put jesus on the national agenda and then people of all different religions and without any at all respond to that figure. >> why did thomas jefferson become consumed with revising the bible by omitting a lot of it in his own text of the bible as you began your book with? >> well, presumably it's not because he didn't have anything else to do, i mean, he was a pretty busy guy in the white house but he ordered a couple

books from england, a couple bibles and he sat there in the white house and he cut and pasted and took out the miracles and took out the resurrection. he believed jesus was a good guy, he believed he was one of the most important philosophers ever but he didn't like christianity and he was able to separate out christianity from jesus, say no to christianity and say yes to yeast. >> how many of the colonists, what percentage were religiously affiliated or had had religious beliefs in some specific denomination? >> i'm not sure the percentage. but much smaller percentage of churchgoers than we have now. something more on the order of, i don't know, one out of five rather than the vast majority. and those who were christians and who did go to crunch typically didn't think a lot about jesus either. >> how much did jefferson take out of the bible? >> took out about 9/10 of the saying of jesus, tenth survived. >> took out the miracles?

>> miracles, anything that sounded to him like calvinist theology, to jesus like god or healing and he took out the rest your ration, ends the story with the crucifix. >> did the early founders view the united states as a christian organization? >> nasa a good question. some of them did and many did not but i think it's fair to say that most of them had a more deistic view, a view that yes, god, yes, afterlife and rewards and punishments but not specifically christian and certainly not specifically new testament biblical. >> the founding fathers saw united states, america, as a secular nation? >> well -- >> you make this statement in the book, you said, "there was a treaty," that you cite in 1797, a key time, between the united states and tripoli. in that treaty the u.s. government says the government

of the united states of america is not in any sense founded on the christian religion. there are also courses approved vision for the total separation of church and state in the founding doctrine, correct? >> no, i don't think the total separation of church and state is in the bible, there's total disebb stabment, emerges in the 19th century. >> were they dominantly christian, as if it was not founded as a nation free of any required state religion? >> no, i -- no, i -- this -- >> therefore, it was a secular nation, as they saw it, and they wanted it that way. >> i think you have to talk about whether it's by law or by culture. and i think most everybody would have understood early on that by law, the nation was secular, but by choice, the nation was -- in other words, its people were christians and there's always been that dynamic, people have always understood there's a tension there between a population that's largely christian but uses its freedom

to choose christianity and the laws that say go ahead and be whatever religion you want to be. >> this is what i understand from your text. one of five of the founding fathers had any religious stressed denomination or affiliation and that was when it existed calvinist and that was pretty much of a god almost independent of jesus, correct, a watch maker god who starts the earth and then he leaves it on its own, a deistic god? >> well, no, in terms of the population there's the calvinists and the deists. >> way back then? >> right. the calvinists totally predominated among the population. the founding fathers were much more elites and yes, many of them were deists but in terms of the vast majority of deists they they thought about it in terms of calvinists where god, didn't think about jesus much except he was sent for this mission. the piety wasn't jesus, didn't

have a personal relationship with jesus is the point. >> well, you seem reluctant to say that the nation in its founding documents was so founded as a secular, no religious state. >> it was by law, yes. >> by law. >> yes. >> and curiously enough, with that religious freedom guaranteed by the founding documents, since none were stipulated for the population, that developed into a curious paradox. more people became affiliated by reason of our religious freedom. don't you take note of that? >> absolutely, absolutely. >> isn't that a paradox? >> well -- >> isn't it true in europe, for example, the contrary is true? >> yes, if you force religion down their throats they don't like it and give the freedom to choose they quite often choose to be religious. >> what percentage of americans are affiliated with a church today? >> four out of five say their christian and a slight majority are members of a church. >> what is the situation in europe? >> much, much grimmer from the

christian perspective. >> no religious affiliation and 20% denied jesus ever existed. >> that's right, that's right. >> what are you finding, go ahead. >> no, i was going to say scandinavian countries, for example, people hardly ever go to church and no one's interested in jesus. >> what are you finding with regard to the doctrine of reincarnation and christian? >> a quarter of christians believe in reincarnation. >> one out of four christians believe in reincarnation, what is reincarnation? >> after you die your soul continues and finds another body and is born as another person. >> how do you reconcile christian beliefs and reincarnation with a belief in jesus? >> it's hard to reconcile it and i think the way i reconcile is religious people aren't always consistent in their theology. >> isn't reincarnation essentially a nonchristian, religious belief? >> yes, i mean, it comes from most power lineally from hinduism but it also comes from the greeks. there actually was a discussion

early on in christianity about whether there was a way to coordinate reincarnation beliefs with the greeks for christianity and the folks who wanted to lost. >> is there a religionian christians are practicing other beliefs and definitions of other religions? >> definitely. >> true of christians, one out of four believe in reincarnations, does it work the other way, does a buddhist in any way seek out and adopt the beliefs of christians? >> yes, they do and that's one of the themes of my book that the drama has said jesus is a boddi saki a great spiritual giant. jews have said similar thing, a hindu divinity and incorrespond natured in earth. you can find hindu temples that will have christmas eve devoted to jesus. >> you know about the doctrine of the virgin birth. >> yes, i do. >> that means that mary conceived independently of any

male traditionally instrumentality. how many non-christians believe in the virgin birth? >> you're really quizzing me today, aren't you. >> this is all in your book. >> it's about half, it's about half, that's right. >> what do you make of that? non-christians, half of them believe in the virgin birth? >> well, what i make of it is that a lot of non-christians are a lot of orthodox than non-christians are. interesting. hindus are going to say things much more orthodox in many things than, you know, i tearians were, or for that matter a liberal congregationist church. >> jesus' image is adaptable. you speak in your book about mr. rogers, jesus, the humanitarian jesus, the gentle jesus, is that right? >> that's right. >> and you see that as a

reaction to the calvinism which was cold and preached predestination which is in itself is an unpleasant expectation of the demand of anyone namely that you are predestined, why even try? it was a reaction to a wrathful god, is that right? >> that's right, that's right. early on, in the american republic, there was an effort to move away from this god-fearing religion to jesus-loving religion. more of an emphasis on jesus, less of an emphasis on god, the father. the way that move in evangelicalism which was the dominant form of christianity in the 21st century is what a friend we have in jesus, hymns like that, seeing jesus as walking and talking with you, holding your hand. >> the sweet jesus. >> that's right. >> did the sweet jesus further degeneral rate into the efundamental national jesus meaning more womanly than man, the hair, the look? >> it deposition on your perspective whether that's a

degeneration or improvement but he was fundamental niced during the course of the 19th century. >> you regard jesus as anything but a distortion? >> i don't really know what jesus was like. >> well, that produced a reaction to that and then we had the manly jesus, did we not? >> yes. >> was that in the company, the era of teddy roosevelt and his lament over the overcivilized men in the famous speech he gave? >> right in the strenuous life. in that period, 19th century turning into the 20th century as roosevelt's roughriders were going up san juan hill and pursuing the spanish american war there's an effort to buff jesus up essentially, emphasize his scenes where he kicks the money changers out of the temple or where he's a carpenter and he's buff and got strong muscles and that sort of thing and that was an effort to bring men back in the churches, there were very few at that time and there was an effort to attract them. >> we won't try to summarize the

various permutations of the image of jesus in your book, but one of the funnier aspects of it is your portrayal or your backgrounding of the laughing jesus. correct? >> yes. >> what was that? >> well,, you know, i think this is where the friendly mr. rogers jesus sort of ends up is the jesus who laughs. >> who produced the laughing jesus? >> well, there was a couple efforts to do it. there was a fellow called hubert eaton at forest lawn cemetery in southern california. and he went out and tried to find images of jesus smiling 'cause he thought that in america, at least, jesus should smile instead of frown. >> smiling is one thing, laughing is another, was that your burl 11? >> no, it isn't my burl 11, it's an artist named ralphco zach that shows jesus leaning back and not laughing guffawing. >> a real knee-slapper. >> it's a real knee-slapper, that's right.

>> do you find that gained any assemble tans in the united states? >> yeah, i mean, that picture is fairly popular. >> the phenomenon, the potential reality. we know jesus was all human, we know he was all god because he has a divine nature, i say "we know," this is the christian theology, at least that's catholic theology and it's i think still -- a few orthodox episcopalian, you're a episcopalian. >> sure. >> who believe in the die vin origin, there's a dual nature, a god and man nature but both were fully fulfilled, if you're fully fulfilled human sense incongruity and laugh, right. >> correct. >> when you mention this to people it seems inappropriate, does it not? >> it does because people think religion's supposed to be serious. >> you think it's a joke. >> the laughing jesu jesus? >> no, do you think religious is a joke. >> absolutely not. >> but not incomparable with

laughter. >> no, in fact, there's been very good books about laughter and ways in which jokes and laughter can get at the core of things theological. >> after seeing mel gibson's movie there doesn't seem to be any room left. >> although jesus does laugh in that movie, it's interesting, there is a back -- a flashback scene where he does laugh. >> when he's with mary and mary's trying to educate him. >> i think he's in his shop and with mary, i think he laughs in that scene. >> does the popularity of mel gibson's film "the passion" mark the beginning of a new image of jesus? we'll put that question to our guest but first here is his distinguished profile. born cooperstown, new york. grew up on cape cod where he now lives. 43 years of age. wife, edie. two daughters, episcopalian. politics, independent. yale university, american studies. with an emphasis on religion and

politics. b.a. summa cum laude. harvard university, ph.d., religion. georgia state university, professor of religion, five years. boston university, professor of religion, eight years. chairman of the department of religion, one year and currently. newspapers and magazines, contributor to "new york times" magazine, the "wall street journal," slate.com, salon.com. author, three books on religion include ""american jesus," how the son of god became a national icon." hobbies: painful, of the boston red sox, diehard fan, a passion which introduced him to, quote, grand theological themes that would later preoccupy him including why a good god would allow such an evil team as the new york yankees to win so many world series, unquote.

besides baseball, tennis. stephen richard prothero. >> stephen richard prothero, your father is also a physician, is that right? >> that's correct. >> did he see the motion picture by mel gibson? >> he did. >> what did he have to say about that? >> he found a real human being wouldn't survive 20 minutes into the movie because it's so violent, there's such brutality is brought on on jesus' body and not realistic from a medical perspective. >> meaning he would have never have made it on the top of the hill. >> he wouldn't even have made it to the bottom of the hill. >> that raises the question on whether the assertion made by mr. gibson that he's following scrupulously the gospel text is true, it would seem to indicate that what your father see are the excesses of the movie are the incompatibility of the portrayal in the movie with basic science raises a point

that mark describes it that the synoptic goss members, matthew, mark, luke and john, do not suggest the basis for the extreme, the savagery that we see in the motion picture, correct? >> not at all. you can really only find one lines in the gospels about jesus being lashed and whipped. and all that scourging that we see in the film and that takes about 45 minutes in the movie. >> spell that out a little bit. in matthew there is mention of being scourged before taken to the hill, that is the arduous process to get there, he was crowned with thorns, he was spit upon or smote or hit on the head. >> we certainly don't get a sense of the violence that attends the trial and the execution of jesus. we don't get that in the gospels at all. >> there's no mention -- let me

clarify, there's no mention of scourging in john. and that brings us to another interesting question that we can raise with you and we're joined on the live line and he's actually been listening to us and he may choose to comment on what you've said thus far david brickner who is the executive director of jews for jesus which is celebrating, i believe, it's 30th year, is that right, gaifd brickner? >> it's good to be with you, john. on the cornerstone of our headquarters it says jews for jesus established 32 a.d. give or take a year but the organization you're right, it's celebrated its 30th year this past year. >> there are two ways of looking at the gospel texts. and one of the ways, they're not in conflict but one is the emphasis on the atonement, the redemption, incarnation, the son of god becoming man and the price that was paid to redeem

mankind is what you saw on the screen. there is the political, there is the moral, other interpretations of events. do jews for jesus accept the divinity of jesus christ? >> well, we would stand with the answer that one of the first jews for jesus gave when jesus asked the question "who do men say that i am?" and followed it up with a direct question with peter who do you say i am. he said you are the messiah, the son of the living god. and we're jews for jesus just like peter, james and john are so that's our conviction. >> what did you find, stephen, about jews and their regard for jesus stemming from the famous lecture by rabbi wise in what 1925? >> that's right, i really didn't investigate jews for jesus proper, i investigated jews who

don't believe jesus was the messiah. >> that stemmed from this talk by wise. >> and before the 1925 talk by wise, i found between the civil war, essentially, and the 1920s, virtually every major reform, liberal -- reformed liberal rabbi in the united states wrote something on jesus. they agree he was a great rabbi, he was a great jew and the only question was what kind of jew was he. trench reverence for jesus where he was compared to moses and amos and other jewish heroes. >> well, what distinguishes the theology of jews for jesus from christian theology? >> well, not much when it comes to the person of jesus. we would be very conventional in that regard but let me say that while dr. prothero has done a good job of pointing out what the academic view of jesus is in the jewish community, i think that there needs to be a little bit of an update in terms of

what seems to be more of the man on the street in the jewish community. >> what are you referring to that he wrote? >> well, he talks about the reclamation of jesus, and that's good, and he says that samuel sandmouth is perhaps the leader of today's thought with regard to jews' views of jesus but the man on the street in the jewish community there's a tremendous schedulessia within the jewish community, we're deeply divided and i think you can see this most clearly in the response in the jewish community to mel gibson's "the "passion of the christ"." you have on the one hand abraham foxman of the antidefamation league saying it's dangerous, going to produce antisemitism, michael met vet, dennis prayinger, lapin, they say it's a good film and jews and christians should go and see it. and this translates into a tremendous kind of schedulessia,

like i have -- schizophrenia, like i was saying and what is creating a backlash to the reclamation of jesus is an inordinate fear of the christian right and i think that's part of the problem that we face of trying to answer the question that jesus asked who do you say that i am? >> there's something else that could added here and that's the involvement of ann katharine emmer rich 1774-1824. a german miss stick and a stick maddic. why do i bring her name up? >> she was a major influence on mel gibson in terms of her making the atmosphere of the. the claim has been it's based on the gospels but the gospels aren't really a screenplay or a treatment of a screenplay, they're a very, very brief outline for such a movie and he took a lot of the scenes directly from her vision. >> summarized a an awful lot, brentano published her writings and then they were enlarged upon and what you have at the end,

according is that the net resuln that much of this is about fiction as opposed to being in any way drawn from the -- in any real way drawn from the gospels. >> well, that's right. and that's what so silly about this claim of mel gibson and frankly of some others including billy graham who's claimed when he saw the film he felt like he was a bystander, like it was a real tv documentary or something. this is clearly a film that comes out of the visions of a lot of people, mel gibson one of them, and this emmer rick person another. >> this goes actually a little bit further, this piece written by o'malley, john w. o'malley, a jesuit. he said the emmer rick-brentano papers are perhaps best treated

as devout fiction or well intentioned frauds. that's how her original writings evolved and were added to. so that has to be said in connection with this. >> that's right, he's drawing from all sorts of resources, he's drawing from med evil passion plays, i think he's drawing from the tradition of the horror movie, i think he's drawing from the action adventure movies, there's all sorts of sources that we see here. >> let me give you a real question here on what image may be emerging. some viewers have said that the brutalization of jesus leave, for revenge, could we say the new image of jesus as the savior, demands or at least inspires venn jennings, we feel victims of the terrorists of 9/11 and 311 and want revenge, we see jesus as another innocent and he's brute alized and have this feeling of revenge, is that

at work here? >> i think absolutely. one part might have book is these track things in the united states and the key one we're in now is the post-911 era of war in iraq, war in afghanistan and it's not surprising to me that we have a revisiting here of this more teddy roosevelt culture. >> we've got 20 seconds left and that's all. do you want to make a closing comment and i'll call on you for about 10 seconds. david. >> i think -- i do think the film is antisemitic in the sense that it does any more than any other jesus film in american history to exonerate pile last time and blame jesus. >> and yet there is so much a jewish jesus including questions from the passover, why ishis night different from all other nights and it's again this schizophrenia, we need to answer that question who is jesus and we're still working on it. that question who is jesus and we're still working on it. >> thank you so much, david, and that question who is jesus and we're still working on it. >> thank you so much, david, and if. for such a small if i live to a hundred.

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