>> hello and welcome to the "journal." >> welcome. >> top stories now -- christians from ronald begin gathering in bethlehem to celebrate christmas. -- christians from our from the world -- christians from around the world. icy weather causes transport shutdown spirit and the russian and then-president hailed the bork -- hailed u.s. president barack obama for ratification of the new start treaty. hello and welcome. in bethlehem, record numbers of pilgrims and tourists have

congregated to celebrate christmas. israel issued permits for 7000 palestinian christians from the west bank to visit bethlehem and also allowed several hundred of the tiny christian community to attend the festivities. them at christmas festivities began in bethlehem with the arrival of the latin patriarch of jerusalem, who led the traditional procession. he will later celebrate midnight mass. >> we are for the same things as last year -- peace and love -- and this year, we also asked for rain. >> drought is once again an acute problem in the region, but the biggest region remains the division of the holy land. the procession also passed by barbwire and concrete walls. this strict room clock security of the church of the nativity, but let him residents -- bethlehem residents have not given up hope of change. >> we hope that next year, peace

will prevail not only in bethlehem, but all over the world. this is the message of bethlehem. this is the message of the prince of peace, our lord, jesus christ. >> tens of thousands of visitors are expected in bethlehem in the coming days. this year has seen record numbers. >> i think it is a great thing to be here in bethlehem. everybody seems to be so happy. >> they are happy to be so close to this special place where the scriptures say jesus christ was born more than 2000 years ago. >> the vatican is preparing for a traditional christmas midnight mass. pope benedict xvi will provide -- preside over the ceremony. the radio message was delivered to the british people on the bbc on wednesday, on the importance of christmas.

he said the birth of christ has brought liberation, though not by military or political means. the first ever message of its kind on the bbc. pope benedict's visit -- visit to september in december. a brief window of whether opportunity in europe seems to be shutting down again, just as international hubs clear the backlog of stranded passengers, on came the next big storm. this time, it is a paris airport that has been worst hit. one terminal had to be evacuated because of snow accumulation. in germany, some roads and rail routes are nearly impossible. >> freezing rain loaded motorways with eyes, causing numerous accidents across germany. in the eastern state of saxony, several trucks collided, and cars created a pile up as their cars lost hold on the slippery surface. at least one person died.

another died in the central state where his car slid off the road and crashed into a tree. nine other vehicles were involved in the accident. travelers who took to the rails faired a little better, but there were delays. before dawn, for as an overhead power cables meant hundreds of passengers were stuck on the route from hannover to berlin. travelers put a brave face on the situation. >> nothing more can be done in this weather. i will be happy to arrive at all. >> at some point, i will be sitting by the christmas tree. >> a shortage of deicers kept many planes grounded in paris. thousands of people are stopped, and passengers are frustrated as they wait for information about when they will be able to fly. >> i'm very angry. there are several reasons for this.

i booked my flight with air france because i thought i would get quality service, given the price. >> the situation of brussels' main airport is much the same. passengers wait for hours in queues, but with only one runway up and running, most are getting nowhere fast. >> hungarian prime minister viktor or banned is standing by a controversial new media law and has vowed not to amend it. he brushed off widespread international criticism, which takes effect next week, and creeds and authority to regulate media content. the move has sparked condemnation from the european movement. hungary takes over from the six- month presidency in germany -- in january. russia's lower house of parliament has approved the new start nuclear arms reduction treaty in a first reading, but

lawmakers made clear that the treaty would need to be voted in two additional meetings last year -- next year before ratification. the russian president praised his u.s. counterpart for achieving ratification of the treaty. >> russian state television has been advertising president medvedev's end of year round up for days. it was a question and answer session with the heads of three major broadcasters. medvedev spoke of his achievement. >> we are about to sign a highly important treaty with the americans. the strategic nuclear weapons reduction treaty. this document is the cornerstone for insuring security in the coming decades, both in the world and in europe. >> key events of 2010 that medvedev did mention include the terrorist attacks on the moscow subway in march. more than 40 died.

hundreds were injured. chechen militants claimed responsibility, but the security forces did not bring peace to the region. medvedev also spoke about security reforms to the region. >> the modernization of our country is progressing. towards the end of the year faster than at the start, but we are still at the beginning. >> dmitry medvedev has been in office for over two years now. as yet, he has not achieved much in the way of domestic reform, but he has changed the course of moscow's foreign policy. that a new treaty will level the playing field between russia and the u.s. at a time when his own reform plan for russia is faltering. >> the united nations general assembly has recognized the

winner of ivory coast presidential election and called for the incumbent president to step down. bagbow has so far refused to give up power, claiming the poll was rigged. united nations also accuses forces of harassing u.s. peacekeepers. the u.s., france, and regional powers are considering moves to reinforce the troops. some of the retailers in germany are not exactly sad at the moment. >> that is absolutely true. retailers in germany are so happy because sales are strong as customers are spending more money than they have in the last five years. the buying frenzy is not ending early, either. until last minute, shoppers are hitting stores. just like every year, quite a few procrastinators were looking for last-minute gifts on christmas eve, and the icy sidewalks did not make things easier, but this year's robust holiday turnover is good news

for the retail sector. >> retailers are very satisfied with christmas sales. the season began very strong, and there were some weather- related declines in between. as a whole, we are expecting the 2.5% rise in christmas sales this year, compared to the same time last year. >> the early arrival of winter led to an upsurge in demand for warm clothing. after this year's recovery, the increase in christmas turnover is the icing on the cake for retailers. last year's sales declined 2%, and this year, they are forecast to rise 115%, and the sector expects the buying mood to continue in the new year. >> germany is expected to remain the motor of economic growth in europe going into 2011. that is the prognosis of the eagle institute, which says the german economy will expand 2.4% next year.

the pace of growth will also create some 300,000 new jobs. the institute believes the number of unemployed will fall to 2.9 million. it is also forecasting an increase in wages. german wage growth has been stagnant for several years. the germans might soon have to ration their coffee. traditional coffee and cake parties. coffee prices are at record highs this christmas time. coffee lovers may end up paying 50 cents more per pound in the new year. a similar spike in prices is expected for raw sugar as extreme weather takes its toll on harvests around the world. >> colombian plantations usually provide the world's third largest coffee harvest, but that is unlikely this year. yields there have been hit hard by some of the strongest brainstorms in three decades, and that has caused prices to surge. unrest stemming from the disputed ivory coast presidential vote has also boosted prices. this month, the price of high

quality arabica coffee beans on world markets has climbed 15% to $2.40 a pound. sugar prices are also soaring and have now more than doubled since may. at $820 a metric ton, sugar is now as expensive as one it last spike in the early 1980's. in brazil, heat waves have ruined sugar harvests there, leaving the reigning market leader struggling to meet delivery targets. with global stocks of coffee and sugar still very low, analysts say prices will remain high well into the first quarter of next year. >> soccer's world governing party fears it could be hit hard by the collapse of its licensing brand group. the singapore company was appointed fifa's exclusive licensing agents through 2014. fifa said it was still assessing

the bankruptcy in trying to contact company's the seal contracts with global brands. >> rum is on high alert today after two bomb attacks at the swiss and chilean embassies on thursday -- rome is on high alert. the crime bears similarities to the parcel bomb sent last month to embassies in athens. >> christmas shoppers in rome showed signs of nervousness following the attacks on two embassies. newspapers reported extensively on the explosion, but many people are focusing on more pleasant things. >> at christmas time, we italians normally think about dinner. we are content and mary, but now, we are all a little wary. >> it is all a question of stability. if the government is stable, everything will be all right. >> police in rome found a letter in the chilean embassy claiming responsibility for the attack.

it was signed by an anarchist group called fai, which has been implicated in several attacks on italian and european institutions since 2003. >> are around two months ago, some small gasoline bottles were deposited here near the embassy -- around two months ago. as we know, a month later, there were similar events in athens. >> the anarchist group's statement contained a reference to a greek activist killed in a firefight with police in march 2010. that has led investigators to believe there may be links to groups in greece and spain. security has now been stepped up in embassies across rome as well as in the area around the vatican. there are worries that more explosives may turn up after being held up in the christmas mail.

>> a huge fire has destroyed three medieval buildings in the southern german town of constance. firefighters were on the scene within minutes. there were fears the fire could spread to other buildings in the picturesque town center constructed in the 15th century. the fire was so intense -- you can see this building coming down -- that in fact several buildings that collapsed. police believe the blaze could have possibly been caused by a candle. now, christmas traditions are very strong here in germany. many germans may no longer be churchgoers, but they do all the christmas eve things such as going to christmas markets and caroling services with religious fervor. you might think that would pose a few challenges for the country's large turkish community, but as the proved during the soccer world cup when many german turks double flag their houses and cars, this community is adept at cultural

compromise. business picks up at christmas time. christians and muslims come into the store to buy suites for the holiday season. the window is festively decorated. this turkish retailer sees no conflict between christmas traditions and islamic beliefs. >> we also celebrate together. we have a good meal. we also buy presents and send cards. >> nearly 1/3 of residents are immigrants. most of them from muslim countries. still, the symbols of christmas are widespread here. most people decide for themselves just how much they want to get into the holiday spirit. >> i was born in berlin, and i know the german mentality. i have been enjoying christmas for 30 years. >> little kids get presents, but the big ones feel it.

>> we market with german colleagues, and we do not celebrate it. >> but the most important thing is that the customers like his goods. whether or not they celebrate christmas. >> with our german troops deployed in afghanistan, they may be missing family get- togethers at home, but that is not dampening christmas cheer at the military base. as a way of reducing homesickness, soldiers have created a traditional german -- here is -- christmas market. there they all are celebrating the holiday with yummy brought worst, mulled wine, and best of all, they waffles' -- yummy bratwurst. the one thing they will definitely have to do without is the snow. that is something that area and i have trudged through the past

couple of weeks. >> yes, that's no problem. i'm canadian. i challenge you to a snowball fight after this. >> i will win. no chance. >> click access to your programs, all regions, all broadcast times, tailored to your needs on dw-world.de. the full programs of dw-tv.

>> welcome back to business. german retailers say the season is shaping up to be the best in five years. despite the snow and freezing temperatures, consumers are the retail association expects turnover to rise 2% to 77 billion euros. that of christmas time is shopping time. welcome to munich civic center for the last presence on her list. one of her main thing gets its books. over the past few weeks, she has ordered a few good ones over the internet. but for her, that is not a real alternative to browsing a well- stocked bookstore. >> i do buy some things over the internet, including books. but at christmas in particular,

i prefer to look around a shop for my ideas. with toys, it is much easier to see what is on offer. >> she only needs one more present to round off her list. a wooden train set for her young daughter. when it comes to traditional toys like this, germans are prepared to dig deeper into their pockets. that is good news for retailers. >> at the moment, consumers are really in a buying mood. we noticed that as far back as september. i cannot tell you which articles are proving particularly popular. spending is up across the board. >> clothing sales are up, and electronic goods are also proving very popular, but gift vouchers remain among top sellers. they are the third most popular christmas presents after books and money.

german retailers expect total sales this christmas to top 77 billion euros. most people are reluctant to cut back, especially on gifts for children. >> i would rather save on christmas dinner. christmas only comes once a year, and the kids should get something nice. maybe we can cut back with the adults, just exchange token presence or not go out for a fancy meal, cook something at home instead. >> this year, hoover has been about 300 euros on christmas gifts. that is pretty much the average in germany. people here are buying without going on an extravagant spending spree. and when the shopping is done, it is time to enjoy one of the more relaxing things the christmas season has to offer. >> for more, we spoke to the high director of the hamburg

institute of international economics. since the german economy has been on solid ground throughout the global financial crisis, we asked what his current assessment of the economy was. >> actually, we are very optimistic with regard to the next few years development for the german economy. we think that the german economy itself is on stable ground. it is the domestic demand for the first time since the decade that is a driving force behind the german economy, and also the export-led growth of the last 10 years is less stimulant and even if it has become weaker, it is still positive for the economy as a whole, so we think that for the first time since the decade, the german economy relies on two killers. one is the domestic demand. the other is the export. but together makes us optimistic for the forecast of next year. we think that it is realistic to

think about german gdp gross domestic product growth of about 2.5% from next year, but left front -- it is less than this year, but still much more than it has been over the decade, over the last 10, 15 years. it is much more than the potential growth past actually is. >> germany is known for export strength, but what is driving current domestic demand? >> it is private consumption. the reason behind this positive development of the private consumption plays in the labor market. what we actually see is a german miracle. years ago, nobody had expected that we will think about full employment in germany, but nowadays, we are close to it. we have only 3 million unemployed people for the moment. that is less than we ever had

since the beginning of the 1990's. second, we have more people with jobs than we ever had. that is about 28 million in full employed positions, and another 10 million in part time or in jobs that are not so well paid, but still, 41 million people have a job, and that means that they are going to spend the money that they have earned, and this is the driving force behind private consumption, and private consumption is the driving force behind the german economy these days. >> thanks so much for that update. switzerland is now struggling with the soaring value of its currency, the franc. has appreciated 15% this year and a full 25% since 2007. a swiss central bank survey

says one in two companies are suffering from the stronger franc, especially companies in the export sector. only a few days ago, the chief executive of the trendy watch grand swatch called the current swiss franc exchange rate in natural and unjustified. -- i natural and unjustified. christmas is considered the most stressful but most lucrative season of the year for hotels in germany. families are increasingly looking rooms and banquet halls this time of year, shifting the burden of the christmas spirit to the hotel staff. guests spend a lot of money to get pampered. >> afternoon tea is served in the lounge of the hamburg hotel. it is an experience which does not come on the cheap. these guests have traveled from the city for one night in a hotel. they have paid 350 euros per person. as a christmas gift.

>> it is something different. we are weighted on hand and foot, and we have turned it -- we are waited on. >> we have done our share of globetrotting. now, we prefer these short trips. we make gifts of them. we do not need anything. >> but even the man or woman who has everything would enjoy this today manual -- this filet mignon. \ 1,000 kilos are being served up this december. christmas is the most stressful but also the most profitable time of year for the hotel. >> christmas is our busiest period. where would have the most guests. that drops off the end of the year and gradually picks up again. >> meanwhile, the concierge shows up one of the few sweets

that really is not book. this is suite 500. and that you will set you back 600 euros. but lack of reservations is not something the hotel needs to worry about. years ago, the hotel was india christmas. now, it is packed. why? people learn to enjoy a meal. the special atmosphere, the welcoming surrounding. they are waited on, treated like someone special. we do everything for our guests. >> back in the kitchen, final preparations are under way for the highlight of the day, the evening meal. christmas is a nerve racking time for the personnel here. expectations are particularly high, and the team do their best to deliver. >> that is dead -- that is it

for business from berlin. the weather is next. we will see you soon.

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>> hinojosa: he travels around the world, from antarctica to tanzania, from alaska to australia, to assess the impact of global warming and to promote conservation. environmentalist and lead scientist for the nature conservancy m. sanjayan. i'm maria hinijosa. this is one on one. sanjayan, you are the lead scientist for the nature conservancy. you are born in sri lanka, raised in sierra leone, you spend a lot of your time traveling around the world actually looking at the impact

of global warming. >> right. >> hinojosa: so when you hear people say, in this country, "well, i don't really feel it, it doesn't feel like a crisis," you say what? >> so the way i approach global warming is that i think of it as an insurance question. it's like if you were driving down the street and someone told you that your house was on fire, and then someone said, "oh, no, it's not really your house, it's the house next door, don't worry about it," what would you do? you'd probably turn around and go back. you have insurance not because you actually think your place is going to burn. you have insurance because, you know, if it happens, it's such a catastrophic problem that there's no real way out of it. so right now we're in this really important point where i feel like if there is a possiblity that this is going to happen it makes a lot of sense for us to take care of it now. and i think it's not just a possibility. most scientists would agree that

it is a reality. the debate mostly is about how quickly it's going to happen and what we can do about it. >> hinojosa: but the fact is that you still encounter, as a scientist, a lot of people who say that humans are actually the ones who are causing all of the problems. >> i do encounter them, although you'd be surprised at the fact that i don't encounter a lot of them. most people... >> hinojosa: where do you encounter them the most? are they in this country, are they in other parts of the world? >> it's not outside the us. outside the us, you know, i was... not very ago i was in the forest in indonesia. and to get there it's, you know, three plane rides and then, you know, ten hours in an... >> hinojosa: you and your plane rides. >> ...suv, exactly. that's true, good point. fair enough. >> hinojosa: you and your plane rides. >> we're not perfect. none of us are perfect, right? so... but, you know, you get in there, and then there's a local chief who's telling you that he has seen the climate change in his lifetime. so i'm hearing it. you know, i've seen it in the

arctic, where local people are telling me that. for me, climate has moved out of just the realm of science now to personal narratives of people who will tell you what's happening around their space. once you meet those folks, the doubts are erased. sort of the scientific, dispassionate sort of thing that i could take is gone away. >> hinojosa: so the most surprising thing, kind of the most shocking thing that you've seen, where it's just like, "oh, my god, i knew it was bad, but..." >> okay, so my most shocking story on this is that i went up to the arctic, and i... >> hinojosa: this was for the show on alaska. >> yeah, this was for a show on alaska called expedition alaska. it's about climate in alaska. but we met this guy, and i spent a lot of time with him. his name is archie. and archie is a legendary whale hunter. you know, they go out in kayaks and hand-throw whales... harpoons into big whales. he's 70-plus years old, and he's

of the highest status rank in this nupiak eskimo village. very, very high status kind of guy. and one day he was with me in one of his cabins, and he said, "i want to show you something." this never made it on the show, actually. you know, i followed him and he took me into an ice cellar. and an ice cellar is something that the eskimos cut out of the permafrost, which is frozen earth, in order to store their meat. and it's very, very hard to build. you've got to chip it out of solid ground, right? solid frozen ground. and inside, it's stacked with all the meat for his family, and his extended family. so whale, and walrus, and goose, and caribou and so on and so forth. and he said, "this has been in my family all my life." and this guy is 70-plus years old. >> hinojosa: oh, you mean, like, they build it once and it stays? >> exactly. it's like the frigidaire, the permanet frigidaire made out of ice. >> exactly. and... because it's hard to build these things, and it goes... you know, generation after generation will use the same cellar. and he said, "you know what? last year for the first time in

my memory it thawed out, and i lost, you know, a third of my meat for the winter," which is a big deal for those guys. >> hinojosa: of course. >> and he said, "guess what's happening now?" and he took me to the corner, and this was sort of in september, and sure enough there's a puddle of water dripping from the wall. and so we emerge out of this, and i was shaken by it. and i said, "what are you going to do?" and he pointed out, and outside his house he's got a ge refrigerator/freezer sitting there, waiting to be plugged in. >> hinojosa: oh, my god! >> and i thought, "yeah, you know, this old thing about we're going to sell," you know, "freezers to the eskimos is really coming true." so once you meet a guy like that who's showing you something that's happening in his life, and he's an old guy, so he knows the patterns of nature, it's hard to be dispassionate about it. you know that you are part of the problem, and thus you also have to be part of the solution. >> hinojosa: but of course, people are going to say, "well, god, that's dramatic, and it's happening in alaska." >> yeah. >> hinojosa: and so... >> what about here? >> hinojosa: and so what am i supposed to do? you know, they can write checks,

and we'll go through a number of things. but what does that person do? >> get informed by it. >> hinojosa: but, you know, there's almost a part... i'm sorry to interrupt you, but there's almost a part of people who say, "you know what? we have too much information. all the time we're hearing about the climate crisis." and it's almost as if people are saying, "it just feels like it's talked about all the time," and so then therefore the crisis nature of it... so when you say "get informed," it's like, "get informed how?" like, in what way are we supposed to be getting informed that's going to be different? >> hinojosa: you know, i think you have to personalize it. you have to make it real to your life. and i think one of the first things you can do is find out how much carbon you actually use. so you can do a carbon audit. it's not that hard to do. lots of web sites do it. our own web site, you know, at nature.org, which is the nature conservancy's web site, will help you do it. it's a quick thing you can do, it takes five minutes, and it'll give you a sense of how much carbon you're using. and it might surprise you where you're going to emit the most amount of carbon, what part of

your lifestyle. it might not be your driving. it might be your house. it might be, you know, the kind of food you eat. and you can make small changes. this is what i believe. i think we can knock our carbon emissions down by 20% right now, you and i, without changing anything major about our lifestyle. and you wouldn't notice the difference. >> hinojosa: so, for example? >> for example, you know, driving patterns, food you buy, how much you heat every room in your house, leaving things plugged in when you're not using it. you know, i just left for a big trip, and when i left my house i didn't just, you know, turn things off. i actually unplugged them. not your refrigerator kind of thing, but my television and vcrs and dvd players and things like that. >> hinojosa: your computers? >> my computers, exactly. because just even having them plugged in keeps them on standby, which means they're, you know, energy vampires, and they're draining a little bit of energy all the time. that's a really simple thing. eating just a little bit of less meat every day or every week can make a difference. it's healthier for you, but meat tends to be very heavy in terms

of how much carbon goes in to produce... >> hinojosa: that's what my husband the vegetarian... he's like, "you know what? you want to talk about being green? >> good karma. >> hinojosa: stop eating meat." and actually, i did. i stopped eating red meat, because... you know, just because i was tired of it. but... >> you'd be surprised. just go and look. do the carbon calculator yourself, and i bet you just that change probably has knocked you down by 20%, just that one change. >> hinojosa: okay. >> and i'm not even telling people not to eat meat. i'm just saying eat just a little bit less. it's probably healthy for you, because most western diets are hugely, you know, tilted in the wrong direction in terms of red meat. >> hinojosa: but we may be eating less meat, but does that mean that the industry itself is therefore... >> it... >> hinojosa: ...contracting, and then that's what's having the impact, right? >> right. so there is a chain. i mean, obviously, yes. absolutely. so if you buy less stuff, or, you know, fly less, or, you know, heat your house less, or eat less meat, it is going to have a downstream impact. but i actually think that over the long run it actually helps everyone.

you know, i was in arizona a year or so ago, a couple years ago, and i watched in a ranching community in douglas, arizona, which is not exactly the... >> hinojosa: it's on the border. >> on the border, and it's not exactly a place where conservation is the first word out of people's mouths. >> hinojosa: right. >> i watched a room of 50 cowboys... you know, this is with hats and cattle dogs sitting right next to them in cowhide jackets, complete dead silence in this room while a scientist was telling them about what was happening to their range land because of climate change. and the scientist was basically saying, "did you guys know that last year was the first year you didn't have frost on your land?" and every head in the room nodded. and he said, "you know that it means it's going to be a really bad fire season this year." every head nodded. those guys were frightened. they really were frightened. so, you know, they're losing their livelihood for a host of reasons, and i don't think that adjusting our diet by ten, 20 percent is ultimately going to make, you know, most ranchers just immediately go out of

business. that isn't what i'm trying to push here. >> hinojosa: so how many people actually, sanjayan, have to go to nature.org and take the test to figure out... i mean, in order for it to have a real impact. how do you measure these things? >> that's a really tricky question that you just asked, how you measure the impact of the work you do. i actually think every person should do it-- every single person on the planet. every single person certainly in the us who has an access to a web site should be able to do this and find out what their impact is and make small adjustments as they see fit. and then make bigger adjustments in terms of, you know, what you learn about, what kind of legislation you push for or ask for. that's what informed citizenry is. and think of it as an insurance policy. here's the deal-- if we are completely wrong on this, we've lost some money and we've lost some economic steam. but if we are right and climate change is happening as the most august body of scientists, like the national academy of scientists, is telling us, we

don't have another planet to have a do-over again. and that's where it becomes really serious. you know, you don't really have another chance at this. so you... you know, the cost of dealing with it today is about the equivalent of one latte a week from starbucks. if you wait 50 years from now... >> hinojosa: for everybody in the united states, or for everyone... >> yeah, every person in the western world. and it just gives you a sense of how much. it isn't a huge amount of money. it's significant, but it's not huge. you wait 20 years, you wait 30 years, the cost rises dramatically-- by an order of magnitude. so deal with the problem now when you can still actually deal with it, or deal with it later. either way it's going to happen. >> hinojosa: but still, it feels like for so many people, like... and so when someone who's quite... someone makes a statement that's considered quite controversial... we were talking about this. this is from bangladesh. and one of the top environmentalists of bangladesh, which is the country that's on

the front lines of kind of receiving all of the impact of global warming-- floods, you know... >> sure. >> hinojosa: and he says, "well, you know, what's going to have to happen is that the united states... i have a calculation, a mathmatical calculation, that the amount of land we lose because of global warming, the united states and china and india that are producing the carbon emissions that are causing this, you're going to have to take this number of bangladeshis, because they are environmental refugees." and then people are suddenly like, "wait a second. no, no, no, no, no." then it almost feels like, "wow, so we're going to have to actually see people who are environmental refugees?" then it begins to feel a little bit more real. or... >> absolutely right. so there's entire nations... and bangladesh is really on the forefront, you're right. but places like the maldives, which will just completely disappear... and those people have to go somewhere. and they're generally going to go to western countries. so there's going to be a huge change in patterns of how people move. but to be honest, you don't have

to go that far. you know, miami is right in the path of this. a lot of coastal florida, a lot of boston, a lot of the eastern seaboard, is really going to see the impact of rising sea levels. and those people are going to have to move back from there. and as people move back, then there's impact further and further away. so for me, you know, i look at climate change as being... you know, it's a unique problem. we're the only... you know, it's the only environmental problem where every single person is contributing to it. and because every single person is contributing to it-- you, me, and everyone else-- you can't just point to the bad guy. you can't say, "it's the loggers over there," or, "it's these people over there." we're all doing it. and so the only way to get a handle on it is for us all to then take collective action. it's really a unique problem. >> hinojosa: so when you think about communities that are in this country victims of a kind of environmental racism, for example, and you think about the fact that these are poor,

predominantly of-color comunities that are being dumped on, and all kinds of reasons... for all kinds of reasons, what do you say about the fact that, in the world in which you move, nature conservancy, these very high-powered kind of... not elite, but important conservation and nature institutions in our country, do these people... >> yeah. >> hinojosa: ...from these communities, predominantly of color, poor americans, do they have a voice? >> yeah, great question. so the environmental movement, for the most part, the western environmental movement i would say, over the last 50 years, has not done as good a job as it ought to in dealing with the poorest of the poor and the people who are going to be most impacted by, you know, global changes, and have the least ability to do something about it. i think that is definitely changing today, and i think that the reason it's changing is because i think that both these

sides are understanding that they're just two sides of the same coin. you know, when conservationists have looked at people, they've often seen people as the problem. we want to create a national park to keep people out. >> hinojosa: right. >> you know, we want to do this because people are the problem. i know what that thinking is all about, but people are also the solution. and it's not about... you're not protecting something from people, you're protecting it for people. we've spent so much time thinking about where we want to do conservation we haven't thought about why we want to actually do it. >> hinojosa: so is that a conversation, essentially, that within your own institution, nature conservancy... >> absolutely. it is a thriving conversation within our own organization, and frankly within all big conservation organizations right now. like, when you go... especially when you go outside the united states, where real poverty and hard poverty is hitting you. and do you just ignore the people and just focus on nature? and, you know, i make no apology, and my own background really forces me, you know, and inspires me to live in a place where there's big animals that

can take my head off. i like that. >> hinojosa: you mean in missoula. >> in montana. >> hinojosa: in missoula, montana. >> i love that about it, right? but not everyone is so stimulated by that. and for poor people living on the margins of nature, you know, they have real livelihoods and real needs. now, here's the good news-- what we find out is that for poor people, nature is frankly even more important than it is for the rich and well off. >> hinojosa: because? >> because if the river dries out, they don't have an alternate source for getting water. if the forest does not have trees anymore, they do not have an alternate source for heating their homes. you know, there are 149 million people in the pacific rim who feed on fish. that is their primary source of protein. if the fish go off from the reef, if there's a massive dieoff of coral, bleaching happens, and they lose their potency to have... you know, to produce fish, those people will starve. so what i have found is when i've traveled into rural areas, they're not calling it conservation. they don't use that word.

but nature is incredibly important to the poor and downtrodden, because they have no chance of replacing. they can't go to the store and buy a bottle of water. >> hinojosa: but i'm thinking about the piece that you did when you... a very personal piece that you did. was it also for discovery? this was when you went to sierra leone. >> i did that for the bbc and then animal planet, yeah. >> hinojosa: and then animal planet. >> yeah. >> hinojosa: and you were born in sri lanka, your parents both worked for the united nations, you're living in this little village... >> in west africa. >> hinojosa: in west africa, sierra leone. >> yeah. >> hinojosa: love it that when you were going to school with the kids in sierra leone they all looked at you and called you the white guy. >> yeah, sure. >> hinojosa: but you go back to see the impact that war has had on nature in sierra leone, and there's a moment where you have this conversation where you're with one of your friends, who has all the chimpanzees. >> oh, yes, yes. >> hinojosa: who's protecting the chimpanzees. all of these orphan chimpanzees, which was also kind of

extraordinary. and you have this conversation like, "there's a lot of poor people who live right outside of here, and we're talking about protecting the animals." >> yeah. right, that was a great moment, you know? and he's an old friend of mine. and his whole... his philosophy was there was a lot of organizations that were thinking about human needs, why not have one organization thinking about animal needs. i come at it from a little bit different perspective. you know, when people say to me, "look, how can i think about the forest or the tigers in india when there's, you know, millions of people who are starving?" i say that's true, but the tradeoff is not real. it's a false tradeoff. it's a false dichodomy that people are setting up for you. if you said to me, "poverty in india would disappear, but we'd have to get rid of the tigers," it might be a tradeoff that i might be willing to consider, and a lot of people would be willing to consider it. the truth of the matter is, if the last 2,000 tigers that are left in india today disappear, all you'd be left behind is poor

people in india and no tigers. i've never, ever seen a situation where poverty has disappeared or gone away through the loss of an environmental service. i haven't seen it. so people set that up and say, "well, if not for that national park, we'd all be rich." no, it doesn't really happen. if not for the national park, you'll still be poor, and you won't even have that option to exercise it in the future. >> hinojosa: so does that mean that as a conservationist, you... one of your focuses is actually alleviating poverty? >> right. so it's a slippery slope there, right? >> hinojosa: because some people might say, "wait a second, as a conservationist..." >> "i just gave you money for conservation. what are you doing doing work that, you know, care or oxfam or some other organization should do?" we have to keep our ball... our eyes on the mission. and the mission is to protect nature. but how we do it and why we do it can definitely change. so my whole philosophy has been, unless local people are willing to take a stake in that nature

and say, "this is important to our livelihoods, it's a real issue for us, it ranks in the top five issues along with health care and kids and security and so on and so forth," it won't ever be sustainable. and the minute the money dries out-- and the money will always dry out, the money coming from the us or from western world to protect these places-- it'll be an open... you know, it'll be open season again. so for me, it's all about trying to convince local people, showing them the link and making it explicit that if they manage their nature, their natural resources well, it will actually benefit them over the long run. now, there are some cases where you're down to the last. look, you've got, you know, 300 mountain gorillas, you've got to go in there and protect it, go in there and protect it. and there are some cases where you just have to give food aid, because there are refugees on the move, and you can't talk about, you know, nature and all that. you just have to give them food or medicine or whatever. but in a lot of cases, in maybe the majority of the cases, that link can be made and strengthened. >> hinojosa: but what about when

you hear... when you see what's happened with the poor, which is, "you know what? i do have to take down that tree, because i need to build the fire, because i need to... and i'm going to keep on cutting down the trees as fast as i possibly can." and then people are saying, "well, you see? that's the problem, is that you've got too many people, and people are using up the resources." and if they're poor and they're desperate, they're going to do what they have to do. >> right, so that's called the tragedy of the commons, which is that if there's a resource out there, and it's a collective resource, there's an accelerating chain where each individual is trying to maximize their gain, and it keeps happening. interestingly enough, a woman recently by the name of elinor ostrum won the nobel prize for work that essentially says not always, under circumstances, under certain conditions, people can manage a resource for the common good over a long period of time. the trick is, how do we strengthen those levers that allow them to do that?

it isn't always the case that people will go down this accelerating path. if there's urgent need, you have to meet those urgent needs. but once you get out of that absolute survival stage, you can think forward. look, you know, i've gone on a few trips to indonesia recently, because i think it's a fascinating and complicated country, even though my experience is mostly in africa. and i'll tell you something-- i was with a guy by the name of mohammad, and he works for the nature conservancy. and he was telling me how he goes to these villages, and instead of talking to them about marine protective areas-- you know, "set aside this area for fish"-- which he got nowhere with, he now talks about fish banks, banking for fish. he says, "look, this is really a savings account for you guys." and all of a sudden the villagers are turned on. they want to now collectively establish marine protected areas where fish are safe and breed, they can grow to big sizes and thus breed, and then the spillover is then harvested by communities. but just turning the words around and calling it a fish

bank and giving people that connection has made the world of difference to him. >> hinojosa: so as we wrap up, sanjayan, what do you want people to talk away from this? you know, you said get informed. >> sure. well, first of all, don't get depressed, right? it's still a fun world out there. you know, we have this thing that said, "look, at least try to outlive, you know, those guys." so go out there and enjoy the natural world. it's still a fascinating and amazing place. but definitely get informed. don't be sitting... don't sit this one out. don't sit this one out. you don't get a do-over. we are really the luckiest generation on the planet. you know, we... 50 years ago we didn't know what was going to happen. 50 years from now, it really would be too late. but we're in this narrow band-- why wouldn't you want to be born right now?-- where we can see the future and actually have time to do something about it. >> hinojosa: all right, but give us the list. give us... just because i want to leave our audience with a few concrete things. >> sure. >> hinojosa: get informed. >> join a conservation organization, whether it's the nature conservancy or a local organization in your backyard, that's fine.

because that'll get you informed in your local community. >> hinojosa: okay. >> let your kids lead you. kids right now in school are a little bit ahead of the parents, and they will tell you... you know, my niece is going around telling me when to turn off the lights, and she's sort of reverse engineering my family, who has been not as fast at adopting these things as i maybe would have liked myself. so that's great. so let them lead, you know? let them lead. have fun doing it, and give. give. you know, right now the environmental movement is so down the list of people's worries. move it up the list. it is as important as health care, security, and education. >> hinojosa: and can i ask you, sanjayan, what do you do in your own life? i mean, how do you kind of do this balance? because you're out there talking about conservancy... conserving everything possible, and yet...g that i'm not very good at, is i fly a lot. >> hinojosa: that's what i was going to say. >> now, i'm trying to do more teleconferencing, i'm trying to use... you know, cisco has this thing called telepresent.

it's a great sort of system where you can really be in the same room, essentially, with people. but flying is my worst vice. i drive a prius, i live in a pretty small, modest house, i'm thoughtful about how i heat it, i'm thoughtful about my energy use in terms of that. i watch what i eat. i'm a very careful consumer, particularly of fish. don't ever eat a big predator, is a good rule of thumb. don't eat something that's older than you is another good rule of thumb. so i try to make the changes in my own personal life as best as i can. >> hinojosa: all right. the one thing that you want all of us to do today? >> well, that's easy. look-- you know, just go check out the nature conservancy's web site. it's nature.org. it's an easy one. it will at least get you thinking and get a conversation going with people around you. i think that's fine. and take a walk today. go out there, take a walk today. i don't care what the weather is, just do it. >> hinojosa: okay, and we'll leave with don't get depressed-- we can do this.

>> please don't get depressed. it'll never get you out of bed. >> hinojosa: thank you so much. >> sure, thank you, maria. >> hinojosa: good luck. continue the conversation at wgbh.org/oneonone. captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org 4z