>> hello and welcome to the journal. i am in berlin. >> i am peter dolle. >> raids and animal feed supplier as the food contamination scandal widens in germany. the state of queensland in australia pressed to cope with the flooding as high waters peak along the fitzroy river. >> the un says that prices for basic foodstuffs have reached record levels around the world. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> german police have raided the offices and factory of a company near homburg that is thought to have manufactured and animal food additive that contains the

cancer-causing chemical dioxin. it is feared that 250 tons of animal feed were contaminated by dioxin and have been delivered to farms and made its way into food. as a precaution, authorities have banned sales of poultry, feed, and meat from animals that may have been given the speed since early december. >> police raided this producer of oils in northern germany. it has been selling this additive for years, but claims this was an error. at least 300 tons of oils made their way to farms in lower saxony and into the food chain. authorities say the dioxin levels are low and pose no health risks. but visitors to this market in hanover were uneasy. >> i decided yesterday that we would do without eggs, chicken, and pork for a while.

but i do realize that these eggs have been processed in other foods. >> my egg sellers as they come from free range chickens which are not fed this stuff, but i'm still skeptical. >> the government is calling for clarification. >> state prosecutors have to examine how this degree of contamination could occur and create these levels of impurities in feed. they are looking at companies very carefully. i believe this is serious and must not be repeated. >> it is too early to assess the extent of the economic damage, but about 1000 farms in lower saxony alone are currently unable to sell any produce. >> a large fire has broken out at a chemical plant near the dutch city of rotterdam. officials have warned residents to stay indoors to avoid inhaling dangerous fumes. 50 people working at the plant were brought to safety, but police warned that the chemicals inside are poisonous and

corrosive. the high alert level has been issued across much of the south holland province, which includes the hague. 400,000 liters of carcinogenic materials are stored at the plant. the new u.s. congress has officially convened in washington two months after midterm elections that saw barack obama's democratic party suffered heavy losses at the hands of the republicans. the incoming house speaker accepted the devil from nancy pelosi. the republicans now control the house of representatives after four years in the minority. obama's democrats still retain control of the senate. they have a reduced majority. for the first time in six years, germany is due to take part in a plenary meeting of the u.n. security council later today in new york. germany became one of 10 non- permanent members of the security council on january 1 and has pledged to be committed partner, perhaps all the more so

because it would like to have a permanent seat in the international body. just how important is this non- permanent seat for germany right now? i put that question earlier to our political correspondent. >> it is very important indeed. germany as we have already seen it did have a non-permanent seat on the council, between 2003 and 2004, but there is a widespread feeling in germany that the country, the third largest donor to the united nations budget, does not have quite as much influence in new york as perhaps it ought to. now germany has a genuine chance to make its presence felt. it is envisaged in one or two key roles for itself. first, in coordinating the international community's military, and especially development efforts in afghanistan. also in pushing for the battle against global warming to be genuinely recognized as a core united nations issue. also, germany will be pushing for overall -- a long overdue,

most people agree -- reform of united nations structures. >> that was our political correspondent. flood waters in some areas of queensland, australia started peaking. warnings remain in effect for communities downstream. the catastrophic floods have affected more than 200 dozen people and severely damaged infrastructure and crops, as well as the nation's coal mining industry. the beleaguered city of rockhampton appears to be said that the moment, but more rain is on the way. >> the flood waters seem to have peaked in rockhampton without reaching the feared levels. the mayor toward the town in a boat to tell residents the good news. >> a thing by our best calculations that should not come any higher. >> i think we agree that this is the highest level. >> the state premier of queensland is setting up a flood recovery task force headed by the military.

local residents are helping out as well. >> we are now on the rebuilding task. we are determined to see regional queensland back on its feet as quickly as possible. >> but there are new challenges. crocodiles and snakes are compounding problems. animal's head straight into gardens. crops have taken a hammer in from the rains. food stocks in many stores have run out. >> to get an entire region wiped out that supplies a fruit or vegetable -- >> locals are doing their best to protect the property, but it is too early to sound the all clear. forecasters have warned that more storms are on the way later this week. >> peter has business news, starting with high food prices. >> they are, and they are not coming down in a while. local food prices climbed to record highs last month. that is due to bad weather, higher fuel prices, and growing use of biofuels.

the un food and agriculture organization warns there is still room for prices to rise further in the harsh weather conditions in many parts of the world. >> low stocks of grains mean more weather-related damage to crops could be critical for markets. demand for grain is currently an outstripping supply. prices soared after russia -- russia imposed an export ban on week after crops there were hit by drought and wildfires. and sugar prices are at 30-year highs. that is affecting the food price index which follows the costs of sugar, grain, dairy products, and meet on a monthly basis. in the past year, it has climbed over 120%. the higher food prices are hitting people in emerging and developing economies hardest. when the index rose to record highs in 2008, there was a wave of mass protests in several countries, including peru.

analysts warn that climate change could lead to smaller harvests and aggravate the situation. >> commodity stocks were extremely active on european exchanges today. our correspondent has more from the floor. >> the terrible flood disaster in australia could hurt the world economy, specifically the steel industry. it is dependent on coke and coal. a good part of the world's supply comes from australia, and that is not interrupted because of the floods there. it is not automatic that steel prices will rise in the end, but people are worried. investors are staying away from steel shares. the german market is one of the worst losers. a lot of shares going down were not only because of worries for the steel industry but also the euro debt crisis coming back. >> our correspondent is in frankfurt looking at several market indexes in more detail. we see the blue chip dax index

closed 0.05% lower. in new york, better than expected job creation data in the private-sector is lifting confidence. the dow industrials are up 0.3%. on the currency markets, the euro is trading for $1.3145. the you made a landmark issue -- the ue -- the eu made a landmark issue of the bailout bonds for ireland. there were oversubscribed by three times with a yield of 2.5%. that is more than eurozone countries with solid finances could pay, but much lower than the almost 8% ireland now plays the market for its five-year bond. this is part of the 67.5 billion

euros in aid that ireland would get under an e.u.-i.m.f. bailout agreed on last november. car maker opel has finalized its transition back to a publicly traded stock corporation five years after general motors made it into a private limited company. the attempt to manage opel from the state has failed. by 2009, it was on the verge of bankruptcy. >> opel is confident its new fleet of models would attract more buyers. in the past six months, then increased market share in europe from 8% to 10%. the return for corporate status gives employees a bigger say in decision making. they have traded wage concessions against more influence. >> will be able to recruit the best people. it provides confidence in our future and in our financial strength. >> opel will have more

independence from gm to develop designs, allowing it to better respond to european customers. in the past, gm was accused of neglecting its subsidiary. >> the company will become very transparent. that means that wherever the logo is it will truly be an opel product. >> into a dozen 5, at gm turned opel into a private limited company to increase its influence, but the move failed to reverse its fortunes. executives are cautiously optimistic, even though the automaker is expected to incur losses of 1.4 billion year rose this year. >> a former bank executive has been arrested for allegedly taking a $50 million bribe in connection with the sale of its stake in the bank's formal one holding. he was arrested on wednesday and charged with corruption, tax fraud, and breach of trust.

he managed the sale of the bank's stake in a formula 1 holding company to the cbc capital investment. prosecutors say he led the bank to sell the stake without evaluating its current value. he was the chief risk officer between 2002 and 2008. >> thank you. sudan is preparing for a referendum on sunday on independence for the mainly christian and animist south. the president, who just visited the region, has indicated he will respect the outcome of the vote, although he said he would be saddened if the country split into. the referendum was part of a 2005 peace deal that ended the civil war. at least 2 million people died in that conflict. thousands of people turned up in pakistan to attend the funeral of the governor of punjab province, who was assassinated tuesday in islamabad. the prime minister was among those present.

salman tassir was an outspoken critic of radical islam. he was shot by a bodyguard beggared by the governor's opposition to blasphemy laws. the government has declared two days of mourning. the european union and the united states had issued a rare joint statement criticizing last month's presidential election in belarus. it was accompanied by the arrest of a number of figures and violent protests. it was declared a success by the president of belarus. they have called on lukashenka to institute reforms. new details have emerged in europe's biggest ever match fixing scandal. a former player in the bundesliga said he took money from the betting ring. he figures from the ring are on trial in germany, charged with

trying to influence hundreds of games across europe. >> the latest revelations come from a man who played until 2009. the former strikers says he took 100,000 euros to fix five games in 2008. at the time, he says he was a victim of gambling and was pressed into the agreement to help pay off his debts. his former club said it did not notice anything untoward. >> we have had another look at the games in question, and there is absolutely nothing unusual about them. we did not notice irregularities at the time, and we have not now. >> some of his former teammates say they were aware of his gambling problems. he claims he never manipulated games. in three of the five matches in question, he did not even play. germany's football association has launched its own investigation.

>> winter sports now. the prestigious four hills tournament concludes in austria on tuesday. in the qualification round, a german ski jumper nailed an impressive 139.5 meter jump. the current leader, from austria, had already qualified for the last event. the main challenger for the overall title is from switzerland. he managed a qualifying jump of 138 meters. the annual festival of snow and ice is under way in the northeastern chinese city. the festival attracts millions of tourists every year. one of the first events is definitely not for the faint of heart. >> as temperatures plunged to minus 24 degrees celsius, a swimsuit might seem inappropriate. not if you are competing in the ice swimming races at the festival. contestants come from all over china to prove their speed and hardness. they insist it is only good for them.

>> it is good for your circulation. it also strengthens your will power and keep your body in good shape. >> a special pool has been carved into the ice of the river for the event. many locals try to get out daily to brave the freezing water. for some, even watching can be a chilling experience. >> polish firefighters have rescued two the respect -- two deer stranded on sheets of ice floating in the sea, off the shore of northern poland in the icy waters of the baltic sea. there were able to chase one of the animals back to the land, but a second drifted too far off and had to be rescued by boat. they are due to be released back into the wild today. >> happy ending. >> if they had chinese vice swimmers, they would not have needed fisherman.

stay tuned. i am coming back with an in- depth report on the referendum in sudan.

>> welcome back. sudan is preparing to hold a referendum this coming sunday that is expected to result in the country's division. the book is the last step in the peace process that ended one of africa's bloodiest civil wars. officials are somewhat less confident about the next phase after that, a six month transition when the two countries' separate. christians living in refugee camps for years in the islamic north have been streaming south so they can vote on sunday. >> maria is excited. she barely pauses for breath and she tells her driver is the last day in the settlement. she has not finished packing, even though she is due to leave tomorrow.

hundreds of southern sudanese have gathered at this departure point with their children and baggage. they all have one destination in mind -- to leave khartoum and head south. more than a million people in sudan have made the journey in recent weeks. a mass migration of civil war refugees. maria's husband william check their baggage one more time. they are taking a few pieces of furniture. the rest of their belongings are packed in sex. -- in sacks. >> i will be better off in southern sudan than here. i will be able to work as a farmer. in khartoum, i was just a day laborer. >> seven years ago, they fled the civil war in the south and fled for khartoum. >> it was difficult for us here. my husband rarely had work. we hardly had anything to eat. food was much too expensive.

it will be better for us back home in the south. >> they join millions of others making the journey. maria and her husband returned to their mud hut to pick up the rest of their belongings. they lived here for seven years, a short time for civil war refugees in sudan. many have spent up to 20 years in the camps surrounding khartoum. some 2.5 million people displaced by war and misery. most are christians like maria and her family. for more than 20 years, the islamic north and christian south fought each other. it was not just a religious conflict. it was also about power and oil, and as always, the innocent suffer the most. >> i was young when the arab horseman came. the ransacked our houses. they killed people and livestock. that is when we fled to khartoum. >> today, khartoum is booming, thanks to the oil industry.

that could be over soon, because most of the oil wells are in southern sudan. every returning refugees is a vote for the south to break away from the north. for most northern sudanese, the refugees were infidels and cheap labor. the gulf between the two groups is evident on the shopping street. business owners are almost always northern sudanese. unskilled work is left to the southerners. some are so poor they scuffle over a pile of worn out shoes thrown away by affluent northerners. >> southern sudan has to break away from the north. we need our own country. we have suffered enough humiliation. we need to break away. >> unity our independence? the southern sudanese will decide on january 9. they can also vote in cartoon, as long as they register ahead of time. but most of those offices remain

empty. this young woman is an exception. the overwhelming majority of southern sudanese do not trust the north and fair election fraud. they have heard threatened reprisals against those voting in favor of secession. one minister warned the regime would take revenge. the young woman is cautious when talking about the referendum. >> i will vote in favor of unity. i have been here nine years and have grown accustomed to khartoum. i am staying here. >> these polling stations are likely to be empty on january 9 as well. many observers are affected, but you voters. -- many observers are expected, but few voters. they will vote in the south. some regret the departure of the christian refugees. they say they got along very well with them. after all, they were important customers.

now, their presence at the market is missed. >> the fact that they are leaving is bad for business. they bought things from us. when they have gone, we will earn less money. >> but most southerners believe there is no future for them here in the north. word of the regime's threats in khartoum has spread quickly. few want to stay. instead, they are preparing for the long trek to the south. maria and her family have finished packing and are making their way to the bus station. it is the start of a long journey into the unknown. >> i am joined now by a member of our international training institute. you have been working in southern sudan and where they're fairly recently. what did people there have to say about what this referendum means to them? >> i think it is a very

important thing for them. what i learned from the many conversations i had with the people over there is, and this is surprising to me, that it is a historic turn to get rid of slavery. the astonishing thing is, of course, slavery is over officially. but in the minds and in the hearts and feelings of the people, in their consciousness, it seems to be deeply engraved, the feeling of being inferior or second class. the referendum seems to be a chance to get rid of this feeling, to shake it off. this is my impression. >> what is your prognosis for the outcome? there has been a lot of speculation. will it go off peacefully? will it lead to independence? >> a share the same opinion like

many people that are working in southern sudan. people will go for separation. >> what are some of the economic and social ramifications that would accompany separation, independence for southern sudan? >> i think it is very important to see that of course separation cannot be done like a clear-cut. there are still topics like the oil, for example, that need some agreement. the oil itself is in the south. the pipeline goes to the north. after a referendum, even if there is a separate state in the north and south, they have to agree how they will share the revenue of the oil. that is one thing. the other thing is what will take time. we have northerners in the south and southerners still in the north. families are mixed.

this will also take time. you cannot do it like a surgery and make a clear-cut. >> what will it take for the south to be a truly viable independent state? >> i think the most important thing, the big challenge, is to achieve unity. i mean unity within the south. because until now, the southerners, i think, have not answered to themselves the question "what does it mean to be a southerner," more than being against the north or against unity. what does it mean? what is the identity of the southerner? i think this is the big challenge and this will need time. and this is a point where media can play its role, i think. >> think you very much for being with us today. that has been our in-depth report this hour.

thanks for joining us, and stay tuned for more news and information.

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the gospel truth. were mary and joseph turned away from an inn in bethlehem 2,000 years ago? and the miracle of the virgin birth. is that intended as the literal truth in matthew and luke? the gospels give us one description of the birth of jesus. do archaeology and history give us another? joining us to answer these questions areu.s. open, the aute brand new "jesus of nazareth cunning of the and jeffrey sheler author of the brand new "is the bible truth?"

if. for such a small if i live to a hundred. if social security isn't enough. if my heart gets broken. if she says yes. we believe if should never hold you back. if should be managed with a plan that builds on what you already have. together we can create a personal safety net, a launching pad, for all those brilliant ifs in the middle of life. you can call on our expertise and get guarantees for the if in life. after all, we're metlife. tell us what you think happened at bethlehem, jeffrey she'ller. >> well when we read two gospels, only two of the four

gospels even talk about the birth of jesus and when we read matthew and luke, those two gospels, we are certainly presented with different details surrounding the story of the birth but despite the differences there are several things that clearly come through and those are the important aspects of the story. one, that jesus was born in bethlehem. to a virgin named mary. whose husband, joseph, was of the lineage of david. and this according to the writers of those two gospels was in fulfillment of the hebrew prophesies. so despite very clear and seemingly troubling contradictions in some of the details the more important thing is, i think, the points on which they disagree. >> on the physical -- on the physical details was it an inn or was it a two-story house? >> an inn or a two-story house. that's an interesting question. there certainly is a theory now that it was a two-story house. that the word that is oftentimes

translated "inn" is a word that really should be translated "house" and that the couple were not turned away by a mean, old innkeeper but rather were let into the guest room of a typical two-story palestinian house. >> or was it the guest room was filled and they were told that they could rest with and sleep with the animals who were, where downstairs? >> the first story, the first floor is typically a place where the animals were kept. consequently, there would be a manger there. >> paula fredriksen, what did jeffrey shela say that you find needs further elaboration or different elaboration from your perspective? >> well, i was thinking of there's also a second century tradition that jesus was born in a cave. i mean, there are all sorts of traditions that grow about jesus' birth the more christianity develops and when i consider that matthew and luke were probably ch written by anonymous christians somewhere, i don't know, between 90-100 and

that jesus himself would have been born sometime around 0, that's a lot of room to begin looking to the bible for ideas to express what you think is religioussy important about jesus and that's why i would look at these -- but i think mary was home in nazareth when she had jesus, i don't think she was in bethlehem. >> well, let's go to the basics, first of all, the year. was it not four years before a.d. started? >> well, a.d. starts as a medieval convention. jesus, if he's born -- this is one of the chronological differences between the gospels. if harrod is alive as he has to be from matthew's birth narrative to work we know that harrod died in minus 4. if there is a tax which happens when corinius is the liggot of syria as luke says, we know that

a tax that happened in plus 6. so you have to pick where you want, matthew and luke named different points. >> is there an abundance of evidence forthcoming from archeology and other sources that will settle all of these matters, do you think, upcoming? >> well, it's hard to say. you know, who knows what remained buried in the sands of palestine but -- >> do you draw hope from the rapprochement that may take place between syria and israel? >> i think anything that opens up the land to exploration, archeological exploration is going to be helpful. >> you think there's a lot more there/. >> you don't think it was bethlehem. >> that's right. >> there was a controversial word used by jeffrey sheler a year ago and that was mary was a virgin at the time she gave birth to jesus, correct, that's what he said?

>> no, jeffrey said that's what the gospel writers said, am i correct? >> that's right. >> quoting the gospels, thank you for the correction, i'm glad to see the principles of scholarship are being enforced here. >> makes a difference. >> you don't believe mary is a virgin or that the gospels make the case that she was a virgin at the time of the birth? >> certainly both -- matthew specifically and luke more subtly claimed that she is a virgin. mark says nothing. and john says nothing about it. and the reason that both matthew and luke introduced that particular aspect or they have a tradition that states that about mary is because they're reading the jewish bible in greek. >> the jewish bible in greek. what was the language that the -- that was translated, the original language? jesus spoke in aramaic, correct? >> probably. >> and that was first translated into hebrew?

>> the jewish bible is, for the most part, in hebrew. there are a few parts in aramaic. >> then it was translated into greek for the common man. >> for the greek-speaking common jew in minus 200. >> ok. now, it's your contention, is it not, that when the translation occurred between hebrew and greek there was a mistake made. what was the mistake? >> you know, that's augustine's contention too, i'm in good company. >> you mean the saint? >> yes. yes. >> of hippo? >> yes, one of my favorites. this is something that greek-speaking christians were aware of as early as 150. >> what is the word in question? >> the word -- it's like the word for the parthenon because athena was a virgin goddess, the word is parthenos and that's the word that appears in greek of isaiah 7:14 but it's not the order in the original hebrew.

>> what's the word? >> the hebrew text says ama. >> what does that translate to. >> it's the word for young girl which has its own greek word. >> what's the greek word. >> the greek word would be nianis. >> niansus is not parthenos. >> i have three daughters, we hope that young girls are virgins but it's not the same word. >> mary is not a parthenos. >> i don't know if she was or not but the text says -- >> how do you know the hebrew was mistranslated when put into greek. >> hebrew has word for virgin. it's tula and that's not what the hebrew text is. >> all right now, she is attacking the whole notion of the virgin birth of jesus christ. when she points to this translaws, what do you say about that. >> where i would take issue

professor sore fredriksen is assuming because of the greek text, because of that difference empty words between the greek and hebrew text that that's the reason why they included that in their gospels. we don't really know -- we can't say for sure what the reason for their including that element, the virgin birth, into their narratives. one could just as easily assume they were including it because that's what they thought happened. we know that the virgin birth was not a part of the earliest christian preaching. the earliest generation, the earliest decades of christian preaching had to do with the resurrection, the fact that this man who is crucified is our messiah and god raised him from the dead. that was the systems of the early preaching. it was in the succeeding decades as more questions began to arise as the notion of jesus' did i have vicinity began to really take hold that questions were to arise that well, if he was divine how did that happen? and then questions of his birth

became very important questions. it's very clear that, for example, luke went back and had to do research. he had to investigate. he tells us that at the start of his gospel. in order to find out what he calls the exact truth. and the fact that he concluded that jesus was born of a virgin may well be because that was a part of the tradition that he discovered as he went back and did his research. >> do you have thoughts on what you're hearing? >> of course i do. this is my business. >> what are your thoughts? >> two things. one thing, again, augustine points out -- ancient christians for whom greek and latin were their vernaculars knew perfectly well the greek text was different from the hebrew text on this word. augustine says it is a mistranslation but he says the holy spirit puts the translation into greek deliberately looking ahead to mary's conception. so that's something that rather than deny that there's a problem augustine used it and made

another nicer point. >> but that's not scholarship, is it? >> well, i think it's scholarship to acknowledge when there is actually a conflict rather than to deny there is one. >> of course in mythology, greek parnology there is birth from virgins. >> in roman imperial mythtology, augustus mother was a virgin, alexander the great's mother was a virgin. >> you mean in that type of mythtology. >> they didn't allude to isiah because they weren't jews. one way of saying a person is important is to have their mom be a virgin at the birth of the hero. >> who was sells us. >> he wasn't a roman historian, i was a floss fur. >> clus. >> yes. >> he wrote a book on the true teaching he criticized judaism and christianity. >> what did he say jesus' origin was. >> that's a story about a roman

soldier dating mary before,g no foundation in fact? >> no, it's a way to discredit a tradition. >> is there any basis in biology for parthenogenesis, human biology, has it ever occurred? >> before technology, i'm sure technologically we can do all sorts of things. >> before technology. >> before technology do virgins -- how would i know? have i don't know, it seems to me if you're trying to establish the legitimacy of mary being a virgin one thing you would want to inquire is if it's ever happened independently of mythology and technology. >> well, i would wonder how i'd have access to that information. there is -- >> well, you're among all those boston scholars. what do you do in recreation, don't you ask questions like -- >> no, that tends not to be one of the things we talk about. with my grandmother, yes. with scholars, no. >> so you come down on the side

that it was a true virgin birth, correct? >> i think it's very clear that the gospel writers thought so. appear we have no information with which to dispute them. i'm willing to go with it. >> may i say one more thing on this point? one of the things that the gospel writers do and matthew and luke in particular of the four that we have, is that they turn to using the bible, the jewish bible, the only one there is when they're writing, which is an ancient, ancient text, and they use it for factual information about the biography of jesus. it would be a little bit like you deciding to write a biography of jfk and using king leelear for factual biographical information for jfk. >> what were they trying to do? apparently they were not reporters on the scene. they were not doing a reportial account, they were not giving you a who, what, when, where, why, correct?

>> correct. >> they were doing this type of once-removed biography. >> well, it's not like they're sloppy researchers. >> how many general rations elapsed? >> between matthew and lucas, for argued and defensible reasons scholars think that matthew and luke were probably written just before the turn of the first century. >> i thought it was closer to 47 years. >> after what? >> after his death. >> well, he died around -- no, mark is the earliest one and mark seems to have been written around the destruction of the temple. >> i guess what she's saying is a lot of this is hand me down, verbal accounts, which of course are subject to considerable alteration in the pass, we certainly know that, correct? >> well, today it certainly is not like the-mile-per-hour dame -- the children's parlor game of telephone where you pass a saying around the circle and by the time it gets to the end it's been corrupted. go back to the historical

context, it was a very oral culture. and we're only talking, here, maybe 40 or 50 years. i can certainly remember things 40 years ago. and 30 years ago quite cereal. and something of this monumental importance i probably would remember it quite vividly. but in that culture where member morization and oral transmission was -- member morization and oral transmission was a longstanding part of the transition i don't think we can assume that they were unable to keep the facts straight. >> i think by this time our audience is consumed by curiosity about both of you and paula fredriksen, i note that you were born in that great state of rhode island. where i hail from. kingston. the uri, you didn't go to uri, though, you went to wellesley. and then you went on from there to where? >> oxford. university. >> how many years were you there?

>> one. >> what did you study? >> theology. >> then where did you go? >> i went to new jersey. >> and what did you study there? >> at princeton i studied the origins and history of ancient christianity. >> you taught in a number of institutions. would you list those for us? >> i taught at princeton briefly, i taught at u.c. berkeley, university of pittsburgh, for a year i was at the hebrew university at jerusalem and currently at boston unive >> you have? >> yes, indeed. >> i got my degree in '79. >> you're the professor of the appreciation of scripture, you've been doing that for what? >> since '90. >> for nine years. three books to your credit? >> that's true. >> i notice that you retreated from some of your statements from your first book, "jesus of nazareth, king of the jews." what changed in the 11 years between the publication of these two books. >> my first book was "from jesus to christ." and that was published in 1988.

and "jesus of nazareth" was published a few months ago. what changed is time elapsed, i continued to work in the field and learned more. >> isn't it the all-important question of why jesus was killed, you now believe he represented a limited threat to public order during the festival of passover rather than a major threat to roman rule? >> i don't think anybody thinks he, including pileate that jesus represented a major threat to roman rule. >> well, then why was he crucified? >> because of the disruption, potential for disruption he presented that passover. but he's in jerusalem, that's not roman rule. >> well, if it's a small uprising, if it's a small dislocation that he creates he would not have been crucified. crucifix was reserved -- correct me if i'm wrong -- >> yes. >> you're much more up to date on this than i am, the crucifix was reserved for public displays in order to gain social control

exactly true. >> but there was no disruption according to your current thinking, is that correct, of any magnitude? >> well, i think there was a potential for public disruption but i also think that pileate new perfectly well even though he crucified jesus that jesus was not a revolutionary figure and that's because of the other fact. and we have so few real fact. the other fact that we have historically is that even though jesus was executed as if he were an insurrectionist none of his followers were. >> right, which is another indication he was not a threat to roman rule. so why did pileate get into the act? >> that's the question. because if he was just doing a favor for the high pryce which is how the gospels presented it, he could have killed jesus much less publicly. >> he could have murdered him quietly. yes. >> did you he didn't do that. do you have any thoughts on this? >> i don't disagree with that at all. i think that the palm sunday

demonstration, i think, was also sort of a red flag to the authorities in jerusalem. certainly the acclaim that we read was given to jesus and they were using terms like "king of the jews" "messiah." >> so he went to pileate and said can you do something like that but he may not have known that pileate was contemplating crucifix, correct? >> i think kiafis was concerned that if there was going to be trouble and that trouble resulted in any sort of military or forceful reaction against people who were gathered in jerusalem for the holy days that kiafis wanted to make sure that it didn't explode and the result being perhaps repression of their own authority. way we treat troublemakers in order to gain social control. did you find any evidence of interrogation by the high pryce

or by his associates? >> well, there were two different traditions preserved in the gospel material. one is that there are one or even two full trials of the prices, chief prices and elders. >> what is your crucial? >> oh, i don't know of anybody that thinks that probably happened. >> that didn't take place according to what your scholarship shows, correct? >> it would be a surprise. but the gospel of john says something else. >> what? >> the gospel john has something entirely different. the gospel of john has no nitrile. the gospel john after jesus is ambushed simply has jesus led to a brief conversation before akafis who asks him about following and teaching and then goes to pileate. considering how busy the prices were at pass overwhen the temple was standing john's depiction is

intrinsicically more plausible. >> well, all this seems to say that the brame, if that's the right word, the culpability for christ's death that has been affixed to the jews over the years that has spawned antisemitism, that that is unfounded on the basis of scholarship because the only connection between pilate and the san hedron was kifis who said to pileate saying we have something serious and it was pileate who ordered the crews i figures. am i getting too far ahead of you. >> you're bledding a lot of big ideas but that's fun, it's ok. the interesting thing when you get the jews blamed for jesus' death that again is an

accusation that develops in the second century from the way that are readying the gospel stories. >> rather than the facts. >> how do people know facts? how well do we know facts now? from but you say all of your scholarship is based on facts and the only facts you know about jesus' death is sometime around 30 a.d. during the feast of passover, he was crucified under pilea is murky as to why he was crucified, we're on the threshold of the third millennium of christianity which is a miracle in itself. what are some of the more exotic interpretations of the bible beyond funk that we can expect and will they take hold, you want to talk about, for example, the bible code, we have very little time. >> the bible code tells us that in modern times, now that we have computers, we finally discovered the real bible beneath the bible. that is a hidden code, hidden. the -- in equidistant letter sequences within the text of the bible presumably by god or some

other intelligence. >> has it been discredited? >> it has been in my opinion discredited by mathematicians and computer scientists who have explored the arguments and found them lacking. >> do you think traditional christianity will survive the exotic forms we see today? >> i think the bible will always be the most important book in western culture and people will always interpret it. >> jeffrey sheler -- born in grand rapids, 50 years of age, married, two children. you're a presbyterian, your politics are independent. where did you go to college? >> i went to michigan state university for journalism. georgetown university for theological studies. >> did you get a degree from georgetown. >> master's degree in liberal studies. >> in liberal studies. that includes, what, theology? >> theology, philosophy, yeah. >> do they teach you shakespeare? >> i managed to stay away from shakespeare at the master's level. >> you'd be comfortable there

now because i understand even for literature majors shakespeare is not a mandatory subject, do you believe that? what has happened to these? >> reporter, covered politics, weekly pbs series john ander nathalie. "u.s. news and world report," religion editor. your book to your credit. >> my first book. >> and still working at "u.s. news & world report." >> i still am. >> if i mention the name funk to you, who is he, robert funk? >> he's a bible scholar, new testament scholar who is founder and leader of a group called jesus seminar. a group of scholars for the last 15 years have been exploring the historical jesus. >> yeah, does he have very much standing in the academic community paula fredriksen interhe represents the school of

representation. >> she's also a diplomat. well, funk is saying some pretty vacanting things. and it appears as though he is off the charts, does it not? he's organized a semiannual seminar that you speak of. and his forum debunks the sayings from the cross, the virgin birth, the resurrection, jesus' miracles and he sees jesus as a sort of jewish socrates, almost a lenny bruce character, is that right. >> that's right. >> you find no evidence in any of your scholarship, by the way, that jesus was a revolutionary, correct? interi find counterevidence. >> counterevidence? if yes is it he was not a revolutionary nor an insurrectionist. >> not that i can see from the documents. >> was jesus a conservative? >> i don't think so. >> well, in what sense was he unorthodox? >> well, i think that in what sense is what he saying somehow

alarming or gripping or revolutionary? >> did he support the tora. >> oh, yes. >> oh, yes. so he did root himself in sources, correct? >> he was a jew. >> that's what i'm getting at, was he not basically conservative. he was -- go ahead. >> well, just it depends on which jew you ask. but it's -- you know, he's certainly within the -- a penumbra of typical jewish practice in the first century but there's something that makes him stand out and that's his belief that the kingdom of god is at hand. >> i hate to say it because this show is -- to me at least -- very interesting, very rewarding. and i want to thank you, jeffrey sheler i want to thank you, paula fredriksen, we're out of time. if. for such a small word it packs a wallop. if i live to a hundred. if social security isn't enough. if my heart gets broken. if she says yes. we believe if should never hold you back.

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