>> this is "the journal" on dw- tv. the headlines at this hour. groups forced their way into tahrir square. a monster storm scrap -- crashes into australia. one dead, hundreds injured. this is according to the country's health ministry. protesters are calling for the

resignation of hosni mubarak. we are looking now at live pictures from cairo. some made their way into tahrir square and started fighting with protesters. egyptian state television had coverage. what is happening there now? >> i talked to one activist who said he is a very shaken. he said the situation on the ground is much more horrible -- he is very shaken. there is already one dead, confirmed. the people there are terrified.

they have been coming every day since these protests is -- protests started, and he said they were taking care to not bring weapons. they always searched people. they want peaceful change, and now there is violence. >> state television again is telling demonstrators to go home. do you think the army will step in and force them to leave? >> well, this is a question that we are all wondering, what the army is going to do. we have really watched this. we really do not know what they are going to do, but, you know, on the one hand, it could be a good sign, telling protesters to leave, telling the pro mubarak protesters to leave. that would be a good idea. >> there are suggestions that

someone oil to mubarak did this to intimidate the activists -- some one loyal to mubarak. -- someone loyal. >> yes, we have heard this. these demonstrations are very organized. you can see hundreds if not thousands of people streaming into the square. we have seen people coming on trucks, dozens of them on pickup trucks, people charging with camels and horses into the city. it seems to be very, very organized, and people have claimed that this is organized by the government, but, of course, you cannot confirm that. everybody is saying that. >> this has not scared them away. >> i think they will be staying put. at least, the hard-core people will be staying put.

some are scared about friday, because really the protests are expected then. something people are getting more radicalized because of what happened to them today. >> this eruption of violence comes on the ninth day of demonstrations against the mubarak regime. we have this report on how the situation escalated on the streets of cairo. >> as night fell on the egyptian capital wednesday, pro and anti- government protesters were still there, throwing molotov cocktails. tensions were high in the afternoon. after days of peaceful protests at cairo's tahrir square, they clashed. the situation escalated after

plain clothes police officers joined the fray. some drove in on horses and camels. one person was killed in the clashes, and hundreds of people were injured. many of the wounded were treated inside makeshift clinics inside a nearby mosque. >> many people are coming here. >> the opposition is also tired of mubarak, saying he needs to go now. >> all of his promises and declarations came too late. any kind of a seasoned politician will tell you that this man has no political sense. this man is stupid. >> the president's supporters

took to the street, to counter the wave of anti-government sentiment, voicing their support. some have taken sides against the demonstrators. meanwhile, the military has called for the grounds -- crowds to disperse. appearing on television, an army spokesperson said the protesters had made their point and should get back to their normal lives, but the demonstrators are refusing to back down. opposition leader mohamed elbaradei called for mubarak to step down by friday. more chaotic days could be ahead in cairo. >> many won't leaders have expressed concern about the violence in egypt -- many world leaders have expressed concern. they say changing needs to take place in cairo now, and, quote, "now means now."

>> i just spoke on the phone with egyptian vice president suleiman, and i reminded him about our position, then violence against people demonstrating peaceful is in no way reasonable. this transition just cannot take place at some point along the line. it has to begin now. >> and the u.n. secretary general, ban ki-moon, has also been speaking about the worsening crisis in egypt. david cameron condemned the violence in cairo. he said it would be unacceptable if it turns out the government is involved. he also urged egyptian authorities to speed up reforms. the u.n. secretary-general called for dialogue among all

parties and warned against instability. >> i am deeply concerned about the continuing violence in egypt. i once again urge restraint to all of the sides, and this is very much an unacceptable situation that is happening. any attacks against the peaceful demonstrators is unacceptable. >> and for more, we are joined in the studio by an analyst. the community is stepping up the pressure after the violence we saw on wednesday, the international community. how do you think mubarak will respond? >> well, i do not think so much it is important how he will respond, but it is the army. the message of the day, change is imminent or should be

imminent. it was very helpful for the development in egypt that the american president to express himself very clearly on the necessity of a change. i wish european politicians would find similar strong wording. >> all right, we will be back with you in just a moment, but first, this call for change across the area is being heard. one man said he will not stand for reelection, the president of yemen. he would also not give power to his son. this show of solidarity is a head of a huge planned anti- government rally planned for friday -- is a head -- is ahead of a huge planned anti- government rally planned for friday. do we expect similar developments to what we see in egypt, in yemen?

>> in yemen, they have a very complicated history of two countries korea 19 -- uniting but not -- the country is also a almost bankrupt. -- also almost bankrupt. the oil riches of this country has come to an end, so therefore, this country has no money left, and the tribes, they think, well, in that case, we go without friends. that is a real problem. there is no sense of government. he does not control much beyond the capital. >> thank you very much. so, tell us about how the markets are reacting. >> of course, there are going to be effects.

the stock markets seem to have shed initial fears about the crisis. even the cost of insuring egyptian debt has decreased. trading was recovering, even in the arab world, but this was before the outbreak of the violence in cairo. shops remained closed. there is indeed increased nervousness in european markets. there was wednesday's trading from the frankfurt stock exchange. >> there is growing concern about the developments in the middle east. of course, it is not leaving much of an impression on the investors, until the oil supply is disturbed in a big way that affects the world economy. people will stay quite relaxed. the dax trading well. there is more and more concerned about people who say that we

have to admit that nervousness is increasing. the developments are cause for concern, and this helped the market back. the suez canal is in the area, and that transports important goods. the neighboring countries are a very important factor for the area. >> let's get a closer look at some numbers now. we start in frankfurt, where the blue-chip dax were up slightly. in new york, the dow jones industrials are currently going up. 12.054. egyptians are fighting for political changes in their country, but also for hopes it will improve their situation. although egypt is all in all not a poor country, welfare is not

spread it evenly. many are living in poverty. addressing that problem is where the mubarak government sees its last chance. >> each ship's path to democracy could be seen and the price of bread -- egypt's path to democracy. this was an effort that was tried and failed in tunisia. other arab countries are also trying to use financial inducements to try to dig the wind out of the sales of protestors. -- to try to take the wind out of the sails of protesters. earnings are sent back home, which is used to cushion the hardships people face there. in dubai, abu dhabi, and saudi arabia, strong gains on wednesday. among the biggest, some of those

who had come under pressure due to the egyptian crisis, but there is no telling how markets could react on thursday if the situation in egypt deteriorates any further. >> back to you, heather. >> thousands of people in queensland are being told to stay put, as a massive cyclone is coming their way. cyclone yasi has a wind gusts of up to 300 kilometers per hour -- has wind gust of up to 300 kilometers per hour. we spoke to someone in sydney and asked about how the situation is on the ground, if it is treacherous. >> it is certainly in

queensland, and the eye of this storm has, a ground, in a community north of queensland. however, the full extent of the damage has yet to emerge. winds have been gusting up to 290 kph. it has been damaging buildings, causing blackouts, threatening lives, and this is a very popular tourist spot, too, you must remember. there are some signs that the cyclone may be easing as it begins to move further inland. however, the other risk at the moment is caused by flooding, torrential rain, a tidal surge of up to 10 meters, which just happened to coincide with an unusually high tide, so we have the tidal surge along with the very, very strong winds. >> how are they dealing with that in queensland? the state has recently just been hit with flooding. >> yes, the emergency services

are placing a lot of -- are facing a lot of major challenges. they have not gone out during this cyclone because it is just too dangerous to do so, with debris flying around. immediately, daylight breaks, and it looks like the cyclone is beginning to ease, they will be out, clearing up, and the government has sent 4000 soldiers, and they will go out and assist in the cleanup operation, but, certainly, there is a big job ahead of them, it looks, but as i just said now, the full extent of the damage, of what has happened, will not really emerge for some time to come. >> and that was roger speaking to us earlier from sydney. you are watching "the journal" on dw-tv. we will be back after a short break with more on the situation

in egypt. stay with us. >> how will we live in the future? get from point a to point b? leading scientists are looking to answers. in germany, and around the world.

future now. innovation shaping the future. dw-tv. and on the internet. >> welcome back. hosni mubarak has ruled egypt for three decades, and now, his final months have plunged into chaos. he promised yesterday not to stand for reelection, but that was not enough for protestors who wanted him to leave now. his supporters have entered the fray, and central cairo became the stage for violent clashes. officials say one person has been killed, and more than 600 have been injured. witnesses say shots were fired in the air, but the army is denying that it's people fired any weapons. there are also reports that molotov cocktails were thrown at an egyptian museum. the u.s. has condemned the outbreak.

tahrir square, or liberation square as it is called in english, has been the main staging ground for anti- government interests. it was renamed after the 1952 revolution and the new monarchies. egyptians from all walks of life have been gathering there to force mubarak out of office, and it also has become the focal point between the supporters and opponents. >> central cairo, near the right bank of the ninth. -- nile. this is where the liberation square is located, tahrir square, and there is the egyptian museum. in the afternoon, supporters of president mubarak gathered. their goal? regain tahrir square. they passed by the egyptian

museum in the thousands. the army gave them a wide berth, even though it was clear what would happen. the mood was tense. >> we are the stability of the country. as you see, people are supporting president mubarak. he is the leader, and he is the symbol of egypt. >> we will be humiliated. do not leave us. do not leave us. >> that was the sentiment among the pro mubarak demonstrators. the anti-government demonstrators were determined not to give an inch. they had come well prepared. some more on horses or camels, armed with metal rods. pass in the museum, they bore down on the square. the demonstrators put up a fight. after a week of peaceful

protests, chaos broke out in liberation square. street battles ensued. in the middle was the army, but they did not intervene. they just stayed, guarding the museum. the demonstrators managed to push back the probe will bark mob, but neither -- to push back the pro mubarak mob. nearby, mosques or hastily converted into a field hospitals to treat the wounded from both sides -- into field hospitals. after nightfall, it was hard to get a clear picture of the event unfolding. others occupied a building across from the egyptian museum,

and some threw molotov cocktails. in the confusion, it remained unclear which groups some belonged to. >> we are joined now in the studio. let's take a look back at wednesday's event, because this is really the point where events took a turn for the wars. do you think that it was a rogue elements behind this violence, -- event took a turn for the worse. do you think that it was rogan -- rogue elements? >> some of jobs that the government gave to them. most egyptians, some people laugh profited from him. we saw these people writing in to tahrir square on camels. this is almost an absurd scene.

unfortunately, it appears this man is willing to destroy the whole country rather than stepping back, and this is a rather volatile and dangerous situation. >> he did say he would not be standing for reelection in september. do you think that most egyptians believed that is the most they can do at this point? >> i think most demonstrating hope they can achieve more, but it is not entirely clear what the army will decide over the next few days. also, egyptian economists are very worried about the ongoing developments, because should these riots continue, it will be very difficult for the egyptian economy to keep on booming, as it did over the past month, so there will be pressure in the business circles, but politicians, and even the majority of the army, probably, to do something, to go ahead and take him out of office, but the next day's could become really bloody, because it seems that

mubarak has his own forces that will mobilize. >> -- the next day's could becoe really bloody. >> -- >> there is not a feeling of him doing any public good to the country. let us not forget that his family has stolen approximately $40 billion of the egyptian treasury. this is really a huge amount. egypt is a poor country. half of the population lives right about the property or below the property -- poverty line -- half of the population lives right about the poverty line or below it. >> now, mohamed elbaradei, who is kind of leading the opposition, he has asked the

military to intervene. do you think that will happen? >> president mubarak is still one of them. he was still their boss until one week ago, we could say. their fear of turning against him, as they see it as an act of loyalty. for 30 years now, they have been his close associates, and they really do not have the guts, the will, to do away with him. it is extremely important that the american president made it clear that this is now really time for a change in egypt. there is an envoy from the united states presently in cairo. >> the united states has changed its rhetoric on mubarak. do you think that will make a difference? >> yes, i think it is very important on a psychological level. there is a question of what to do with a bargain when to move

against him. the more pressure that comes from the outside, the more difficult it will be for the supporters for him to plan for him to stay in office. it is very good that the americans did that, a little bit too late in my view, but, nevertheless, mr. obama did the right thing. we will see if the european leaders are willing to follow. >> thank you very much. we will wind up the day's events in egypt. there was a clash in cairo. 600 people were injured. one person is reported killed. the egyptian vice president has called for protesters to go home and observe the curfew as a precondition for political dialogue. you are watching "the journal"

on dw-tv. please stay with us. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

self centering the universe. thanks to data from a nasa orbiter called the shandra x-ray observatory, the scientists have just confirmed the existence of mysterious dark matter that holds the universe together. this finding and a galaxy of others since the late 19 90s makes it possible for astro physicists to understand the very essence of the universe. what does science tell us about our place in the cosmos? where do we fit in to the universe? in the first of a two-part series, we'll ask the authors of the view from the center of the universe,

dr. joel primack and nancy ellen abrahams. if. for such a small if i live to a hundred. if social security isn't enough. if my heart gets broken. if she says yes. we believe if should never hold you back. if should be managed with a plan that builds on what you already have. together we can create a personal safety net, a launching pad, for all those brilliant ifs in the middle of life. you can call on our expertise and get guarantees for the if in life. after all, we're metlife.

welcome to both of you. pleasure to see you. >> thank you. >> your book, the view from the center of the universe, the subtitle is, discovering our extraordinariy place in the cosmos, is a tour of the universe. it's ambitious and i think it's fulfilled. and it's great to have you here. >> delighted to be here. thank you very having us. >> the assumptions are that we know a lot more about the universe today than we did a couple decades ago. and that's true because of clos copy, correct? >> correct. >> we have the hubble, what are the other telescopes that enlighten us about the universe? >> there are a number of major observatories in

space. in particular, there are two other great observatories still functioning, shandra space telescope and spitsers space telescope, an infrared telescope. the hubble is still doing wonderful work in pace. >> in deep space. >> deep space. neither telescopes that are in different locations, shandra and hubble are near the earth. visitors actually orbit around the sun and are moving away from the earth all the time. you have to understand that there are major telescopes on the ground. we have now about 10 telescopes that are 8-10 nerts size. in other words, they are more than twice the diameter, more than 4 times the light gathering power of the telescope which was the world's largest for a long time. 10 more under construntion. we the the largest

telescopes, two in hawaii and 4 in chile. and there are many others around the world. and in addition, we have great radio telescopes which although they are getting radio signals, they allow us to make detailed images using radio waves and by cross comparing the data from these different telescopes, we can learn more than we could from any one telescope. >> what do you think about the size of the universe? >> we know nows sight of the visible universe. i can tell what you it is. 46 billion light years from here to as far as we can see. >> that's beyond the power of the human imagination to conceive, though, correct? >> the imagination has to be trained. it would have been hard even for a professional astronomer to understand without a certain amount of

theory, coupled with these observations. >> the other problem is that it's expanding is it not? >> it is. >> the rate of expansion increased over the past 4-5 billion years? >> exactly. increasing just about during that period. it was slowing down and now it's speeding up. >> did it slow down because the universe was creating galaxies and stars? do we have a billion galax snes. >> no. about 100 billion. >> can we talk about a galaxee? we have the solar system. it consists of 8 planets now? pluto has been demoted. >> correct. >> if you were over voting on pluto and whether it belonged in with the 3 others they were going to put in because pluto's size was comparable to the 3 others and they ought to get into this union too, how would you have voted? >> i would have voted the way the international astronomical delicacy voted.

it was a wise decision. >> how would you have voted? >> the same way. it's bad to be tied up by historical artifacts so science can't progress into the future. >> so if -- that means we have 12 plan snets. >> no. >> you would voted against it. >> i would have voted there are 8 planets that are real planets. >> we can change -- we are really changing the planetary system, aren't we? by human will? and if we can do that in the instance of planets, can we do it elsewhere with regard to the universe? >> well, we're not changing the universe. all we're doing is talking about definitions, about words. and i think that the goal here is clarity. when pluto was discovered, it was a marvelous thing. new mexico deserves credit

for having made an interesting discovery. but we didn't really know what pluto was in those days. now we understand that there are many of these fairly large ice balls out about where pluto is, some closer, many further away. they are not really like the big planets. not like any of the big 8. >> let me bring you back to the solar system and the planets. now if we move beyond the planets in a galaxy, how big are the gag amenties? >> the visible part of our galaxies -- >> the milky way? >> yes. it's about 25,000 light years from where we are to the center of the galaxy. we are halfway out. so it's about 50,000 light years from the center to the edge of the visible galaxy. the dark mart is much further. >> can you translate that into earth miles? >> 6 trillion miles per light year.

so you have to do some multiplication. >> how many light years? >> across the whole galaxee is 100,000 light years. so 100,000 times 6 trillion. >> and the galaxies you mentioned earlier over 100 billion of those of comparable size? >> yes. >> what about the age of the universe? >> that is a little harder. the best estimate right now is about 13.7 billion years. to do -- we have to calculate things like age. it's not something you can measure. and it depends on knowing eye number of other numbers very precisely and we don't know the numbers that precisely yet. so what i say is that if around 40 billion years. quite sure of that. but i don't think that we can be quite sure it's 13.7.

it might be give or take a few hundred million years. >> what's the basis for the formulation? >> there are a number of different ways we measure. we can -- we understand that the universe slowed down because of gravity. >> and because it was generating all of the above? >> right. and then it started speeding up again. >> but it didn't preexist all of the above. i mean it didn't fill a container. the universe is not a container. right. it's expanding, creating new -- >> what is it expanding in? >> it turns out from the point of view of relativity i'm going to get to you ms. abrahams. nancy, in just a moment. but i want some dark matter. and dark matter are in theory of it was originated

in part by you, back in the 80s, correct? when you fought the battle of, is there dark matter? because there is nothing sensory about dark matter. you can't look tat under a microscope, correct? >> right. >> how do you know it exists? >> by the affects on the motions of other objects and also because it bends light. >> you're talking about gravity? >> yes, it has gravity. >> is it a benign gravity? >> well, gravity never sleeps and it can cause terrible destruction. for example near black holes. so gravity certainly is benign for us. it's what is keeping us in our seats. but it can have very bad affects if you happen to slip at the edge of a precipice. >> what did it -- what did dark matter do that was constructive for the evolution of the universe,

the evolution of the earth? the earth is about 5 billion years old? >> 4.6 billion years old. >> when did man get here? >> it depends on how you define man. >> hom nids. >> hom nids about 4-5 million years ago. >> hominids have intelligence? >> we don't know for sure. all we have are skeletons. our type, about 150,000 years ago the ones we call homosapience. >> are we talking about fire? wheels? basic inventions or discoveries? >> well, our predecessors in the hominid lines used fire. they didn't apparently use fire all the time but we have evidence of fires associated within the settlements going back hundreds of thousands ever years so before our kind of people. >> nancy, are we the only planet where there are creatures with intelligence

and if we are, the only such planet, why are we talking about anything else? except from cureosity? >> we are the only plan of we know of that has intelligent life. there are a lot of planets out there and very likely some of them have life. >> you share that view? >> sure. >> you do? >> absolutely. >> well, there are scientists that think it's unproveable. >> it is so far because we have to look. >> there is such a convergence of factors is there not? >> it's very -- request quite unlikely we would evolve here but we did and this is a very big universe and extremely unlikely things can happen and do happen all the time. it's really important to think about whether there is alien intelligence or not. even if we are very unlikely to encounter it in our life times. and one of the reasons is

that it helps us to understand what we are. what we think of as ourselves. people very often ask this question, are we alone? and by that they mean, are there other intelligent beings in the universe? real they question, are we alone, is a question about us. if you are in a room with just a fly flying around, do you feel alone? but most people would say yes. but if you're swimming in a tank with dolphins and someone says are you alone? fewer people will say yes. more people will think there is something here with this dolphin. now, what would it take in an alien species before we would say the existence of that species meant that we were not alone? that's maybe a thee rett kat call question but the answer to that whether it would take compassion or caring for each other, we don't know what it would take but whatever it would take, those are the essential elements of our own humanity

because that's what we project on to the possibility of an alien intelligence. >> are there correspondences in the cellular world between a dolphin -- dolphin is a mammal, correct? >> uh-huh. >> any mammal and a human, the cellular structure, and let us say, the heartbeat. are there a fixed number of heartbeats in a mammal -- i'm feeding you back a couple lines from your book. you are on the belief that there is 1.5 billion heartbeats in humans on average, correct? >> not only humans but all mammals. >> what does that include? elephants and blue whale, the largest living creature. all the way down to the smallest mammal which is the kind of tree shrew that is only about a centimeter long. >> where do you go from there, nancy? we have this correspondence

with mammals, correct? >> yes. >> we are originally talking about whether or not there is alien or whether or not alien life in the universe could be intgs intelligent life. but let's start here with the proposition that mammals and humans have a lot in common. what happens then? that relieves the feeling of aloneness, correct? >> i don't know if that's really aloneness. we always known there are other animals on earth of course. but the fact that we have this similarity in heartbeat is not just a random fact. it actually comes down to the structure of our bodies and the way that our circulatory system works and if aliens are based on cells, which is very likely since life on earth start friday a cell, a single cell, if aliens are based that way too, they must have a circulatory system because there has to be some nourishment brought to every cell and then waste products have to be removed and

that -- the fact of the matter is that if there are intelligent aliens that work like us biologically, they have to be about the same size we are. for that same reason. >> where did that cell come from? what are the components of that cell? protoplasm? >> sure. >> bacteria? >> well, the earliest kinds of cells were something like the primitive source of bacteria we have. they are a little different and reasonably scientists realized that there is a whole family they call ark yons which are different from bacteria and also different from the so-called ucariats, the cells with separate nuclei -- >> how far back are we now back in time? >> the first evidence for this kind of life, for living organisms dates from about 3.7 billion years ago.

it controversial. not completely clear. if you go back to a little over 3 billion years ago it's perfectly clear. there was definately an abundance of life. so the earth started about 4.6 billion years ago. after a few hundred million years of intense bombardment of the earth when the conditions were certainly too hostile for any sort of life to exist, about as early as the earth became inhabitable for living organisms theathy seems to have had living organisms. so thearilyiest sorts of living cells seem to have originated quite quickly. within a few hundred million years. so it seems likely but of course we don't know this, that other sufficiently hospitable planets will have life on them within a few hundred million years. >> this is what you say on one page of your book, the

universe and common spec cease a container for everything else but the universe of modern cosmol gee, you're also an astrophysicist? so you know about the quant um theoriet cell setra? >> yes. >> but the universe of more than cosmologiy is not just a container, it's a dynamic evolving being. the initial explosive expansion slowed down as it made most galaxies and stars but about 5 billion years ago it began expanding faster and faster. the universe exists in different ways on every size scale from the largest to the smallest. and all times are within it. and it's increasing in size as massive speeds, correct? >> correct. >> now, are you saying here that the universe is smou somehow divine?

>> no. >> is thine verse god? >> no. >> you're not saying that. >> no. >> but it's living? >> living is a complicated word. >> it contains life t si the source of all life. >> we are inside it. >> and we are inside it. >> but the universe -- but we are the universe. the universe snpt something that is out there in the distance and we are somehow observers. we're the universe right here. this table is the universe. you are what the big bang is doing right there in your chair right now. we are all part testify. >> the big bang is continuing? >> yes, it goes on and on. you can think of it that way, yes. >> you have proof of that? that's a term logical issue whether or not we want to call it the big bang. we are direct descendants of the big bang and the universe is evolving and changing ever since then and it will continue to do that. the way the universe is now is not the way it was a few billion years ago and a few billion years before that it

was quite different. >> so when you're teaching this in class as you do, your first objective is to remove the idea of statics. this is not a static situation. >> absoluteliy. it's a living situation and the universe itself is living because it's expanding. >> and changing. >> and changing. thus we have volcanoes and eruptions and techatologyic plates and so forth. >> on earth. >> the earth is a living planet. it's in a living universe. a universe is constantly changing, evolving, a dynamic universe. >> where did it come from? >> we don't know. we have theories. >> it's fine snit. >> the part we can see is absolutely finite and we know how big it is. >> but it's constantly evolving which makes it sound like it's in if i nit. then you're in theeology. >> the part we can see is finite. what is beyond we don't know.

we can make theories about it on that matter of religion, you say here in your book, we must absorb the immense realization is there an over arching truth encompassing all of our religons. we are at the center of a new universe. we got into that somewhat but are we equipped for that set snup. >> we are in it. whether we are equipped or not and the fact of the matter is we now understand this enough and we tried to make it clear enough in the book, every religion explains where people came from. how the world originated and so forth but basically they use the story that was prevalent at the time that religion began which means most of these stories are very limited. >> are you saying that there is no other? no all together other? >> other? >> other. you know, heaven.

are you saying that? are you saying that we are inside the other? >> we are inside the universe. and the universe is expanding and we are all evolving with it. now we are extremely unusual beings because we can talk about exractions perhaps no other animal each understands the idea of exractions. but we can talk about it by using met force and the met force we use, for example, heaven and a metaphor and divine is metaphor call. ways we try to connect ourselves personal tow something huge and cosmic. every people? hysterectomy retried troo do that. they all used different metaphors. we have the biggest and astonishing metaphors ever available and can you clear up something for me? in your book, you mentioned a wrinkle before the big bang. what's the wringel?

>> well, of course the word wrink sell a way of saying in words people will understand, something that is pretty complicated. what happens in our picture of how the universe starts is that there is a very brief period when it expands explosively, not at all like the ordinariy expansion. >> you put that in terms of years a few moments ago, correct? how many years ago was that. >> about 37 billion years ago. >> before that, you can't go backwards. you really have to look forwards and i understand that but let's not get into that. what is the wrinkle? >> this period of extremely rapid expansion that starts off the big bang or comes before the big bang, leaves the universe very, very smooth but not perfectly smooth. it has slight differences in density from place to place.

they are very, very slight. they are like the slight in dennitations on an almost perfectly sphere call ball, just a little tiny wrinkles on the surface but it turns out that is all it takes in the billions of years the universe has evolved to produce galaxies and clusters of galaxies and all the big structures we see in the universe. >> does the wrinkle prove that there were other possible big bangs elsewhere? >> it doesn't prove it. but if you try to understand where it could have come from, then the theory does lead you to believe there could be many, many big bangs. >> can any religion conform to your understanding of the universe? >> well, there is an interesting correspondence we mention in our book between the more than

picture of how the universe began -- modern -- and the ideas we develop in the middle ages by a certain group of jews, it's called kabala, which means tradition in hebrew. that had this picture the universe start friday a point and they said it in a somewhat different way. what they said was, that god withdrew from a little place and made room for us, for our universe to come into existence and so the withdrawl of god is create created -- which then became filled with something that was not god and that is the universe. >> and this by the way was one of the reasons why evil could exist in the universe in their theory because that was the place from which god withdrew. >> what do you mean by the cosmickeur boris? >> or borea is a snake that

swallowed his tail. >> is that myth? >> of course it's middle call. it's not a snake. it's a ser pent. it's a middle call sort of snake but what we are doing is -- mythical -- using that as one of the symbols we use in our book to try to give pictures that people can grasp and work with and in this case, we are using it to represent all the different size scales in the universe. it turns out there is a smaller size that is very, very small but it's not zero and there is a larger size we can see which is the whole visible universe and we rem sent this snake swal owing its tail. >> what happens then? >> two interesting things. first of all we are in the middle, our size, the human size is right in the middle between the symbolic size. >> we are almost out of time. >> there is an idea the swallowing of the tail that represents a hope that we are actually going to

understand how the whole picture fits together. we are going to have a second installment of this program. this subject matter and i look forward to seeing you then. thank you for participating in this session. >> thank you, for inviting us. >> thank you.