>> this is the the journal. >> thank you for joining us. the headlines, the egyptian vice president invites the muslim brotherhood into talks and launches a full investigation into the violence in cairo. german chancellor angela merkel demand an end to the attacks. a massive winter storm dumped snow on the u.s. from michigan to new mexico. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> in egypt, the government appears to be trying yet again to reach out to the protesters and put an end to more than a

week of unrest. speaking on state television thursday, the vice president invited the banned muslim brotherhood in for talks. they said, not a chance. this situation upon tahrir square remains chaotic. 10 people have died in violent clashes today. >> the area in and around tahrir square continues to be a battlefield. crowds are throwing stones at each other. the shots are ringing out. after 10 days, the exhaustion ik protesters, but they say they will not leave until mubarak leaves. >> this is a revolt for our dignity. we need justice. we need those who have committed crimes against humanity to be punished.

>> the prime minister apologized for the violence, pledging a full investigation. meanwhile, the vice president signaled a new openness to dialogue. >> today, the president has instructed me to talk to all political parties immediately in order to have a dialogue about all of these issues. >> all the same, violence continued unabated on tahrir square. protesters are reported to have attacked and wounded foreign journalists. makeshift hospitals are being set up. the army has at times moved against anti-mubarak supporters , and attempted to create a buffer. but they have had little effect on the continuing violence. >> we are joined by a correspondent in cairo. the government spent the day

apologizing. how has that gone down amongst the opposition? >> they are resolved to stay in the square. they have resolved that there will be much bigger demonstrations tomorrow. they say tomorrow will be the biggest demonstration cairo has ever seen. they are in good spirits, despite the fact that those around them are bombarding them with stones. now we are coming to the decisive hours. the effect tomorrow may be a decisive day with a big demonstration. >> opponents are saying that friday is going to be "a departure date" for the president. are there specific events planned? >> they plan to have a friday

prayer at noon. they have announced a change to the whole atmosphere after the friday prayer. this began last friday after the friday prayer. now they are saying that after the friday prayer, they will all walking a into the square and get this tucked away. >> what about the army? what are they doing or not doing right now? >> let's talk about what they are not doing. the army is not really doing much. they are in downtown cairo, except to the area that is occupied. >> thank you. well, the international pressure

on egypt has grown as well. on thursday, angela merkel said she told president mubarak to start dialogue right away. she met with the spanish prime minister, and the two leaders endorsed a european declaration calling for an immediate transition of power in egypt. france, germany and italy have all signed a statement condemning the violence. >> europe is piling on the pressure. the german prime minister perished -- the german chancellor urged any end to the violence. >> it is not particularly important that the political dialogue begin in egypt. i also urge the egyptian president to begin this dialogue. i spoke with him on sunday.

>> the message from madrid is that each needs to make a new beginning. the country has been clear that they will settle for nothing less. >> meanwhile, algeria has announced a state of emergency. a broadcaster said that the president will relax longstanding restrictions on political activity. that involves giving their time to all political parties. that is one of -- giving airtime to all political parties. that is one of the request of protesters. there are protests in yemen. tens of thousands took to the capital in a "day of rage." they demanded the immediate resignation of the government. their leader said he would not speak another term in office,

ending a three decade rule, in 2013. a similar number of government loyalists held a counter protest. the sudanese government has widened its crackdown on the opposition by barring at least 10 journalists. riot police have been instructed to break up demonstrations by disaffected youths this week. meanwhile, the u.s. has urged southern sudan to create a multi-party democracy when it becomes independent in july. an overwhelming majority of voters backed succession in a referendum last month. that was part of a peace deal that ended a decade of civil war. southern sudan says they are not striving for a one-party state.

hundreds of palestinians waving flags have been demonstrating in the gaza strip. this is the first public display of support permitted by hamas. cairo has a political ally in the muslim brotherhood. but protesters have other things on their mind. >> this devastation in the gaza strip is just a few meters from the border with egypt. this attendant says he has no more gasoline to sell. all they can offer his customers is diesel, but that will not last much longer either. >> what is happening over there has caused us to have been just a little these the left and almost no petrol. in a few days, it will all be gone.

>> they are an important supply route for gossip. the unrest -- for gaza. the unrest in egypt has inspired many palestinians. people in gaza are troubled by the latest events. >> it is unfortunate. we had hoped for a peaceful transition, that egypt and the egyptians would not have to go through this. it is a difficult situation, and it affects the palestinians too, because we have such close ties to egypt. now the border is closed to egypt as well as israel. >> this is one of the last gateways to the rest of the world. now it is closed too, and no one knows when it might reopen. >> back to the euro's down. -- eurozone. >> as you mentioned, angela

merkel met with the spanish prime minister. they have been talking money and politics. the european debt crisis is high on the agenda. they hope to raise 3.5 billion euro on the bond market. they still face many challenges, with a huge deficit and 20% unemployment. but angela merkel says she is impressed with reforms. >> there was a show of unity from the two leaders added -- ahead of the european summit. a deal is aimed at boosting competitiveness. >> spain has never really done its hallmark. i think spain is on that -- spain has a now really done its homework. i think spain is on the right track.

>> the package of measures aimed at improving coordination between the 17 members of the european zone. the debt crisis is not the only problem at the moment. the european central bank is getting more and more worried about inflation, which is now well above its target. they said they will keep interest rates at an historic low for 19 months in a row, but pressure is mounting for a rate surge. >> the common currency is shedding value more quickly than the central bank would like. in january, prices rose by two 0.4%. despite that, the bank's president said things are broadly balanced, although rising commodity and energy prices could push rates higher.

it said they will continue to watch developments closely. >> as you know, we have a reputation of doing what is necessary for price stability. >> he also called on the governments to do more to keep their national budgets in control. he said nothing about a possible interest-rate hike, but others say it is just a matter of time before the cost of borrowing goes up. >> we have this roundup of the frankfurt stock exchange. >> they managed to save a little game at the end of the day. it was a difficult effort, a difficult job. there was a lot of insecurity. you can see that on the big blackboard behind me. the insecurity stems mainly from looking at egypt and the escalation of violence there.

people want to know what that means for the process of finding democracy in the country, and for the world economy. still, there was good news that kept things at relatively high levels. that came from companies, but also from the u.s. economy. also, the euro came back a little. it is still at a high level, and a magnet for money being invested in yorkshire. >> the dax is uphel a little bi. taking a look at the dow, it is up 0.18%. the euro is trading at $1.36. turmoil is gripping the country in egypt. vice-president omar suleiman

says 1 million tourists have left. the central bank insists the economy will be up and running again soon. they have been closed this week amid fears of a bank run it depositors gain access to their funds. the central bank government says it will reopen on sunday, although cash withdrawal will be limited and opening times will be restricted to just a few hours a day. transfer abroad will resume. we have some news from my home state. >> australians have emerged from their shelters to find that a the cyclone was not as bad as they had feared. there were no deaths or injuries. wind blew it up to 280 kilometers per hour, uprooting trees and cutting power lines. a devastated of the region's

crops. australia is the world's third largest exporter of sugar. cities and towns across the united states are digging out after a massive snowstorm. large parts of the country. snow, sleet and is it more than one-third of the u.s. chicago is one of the hardest- hit cities with 20 inches of snowfall. air travel is also a mess. most people are fed up with the winter weather and cannot wait for spring. >> the snow storms have brought chaos to one-third of the country. sidewalks were turned into skating rinks and services were brought to a standstill. airports were open but ineffective. this week alone, some 13,000 flights have been cancelled. the storm drenched through areas on thursday, and americans work

to dig themselves out. there were record levels of snowfall. >> i am suspicious. when will i be done? >> although the winter is not over yet, many have already had enough. >> i hate it. i hate winter. people drive slow. nobody knows how to drive. schools closed, which means my son is comihome. it is no fundinn. >> the ground hog that is part of an american holiday predicted an early spring. many people hoped he got it right. >> he should move over to germany and make spring happen here.

you are watching the journal. we are back in a minute.

>> welcome back. we are seeing all too clearly how difficult it can be in africa to reform the state, but imagine forming one from scratch. that is what is happening now in south sudan. after five decades of fighting, the south now has a chance to shape its own future. but it is starting out with practically nothing. what they do have is hope. >> these people are returning home to southern sudan's main city after years in exile. they headed north during the civil war, and only now are the returning, on flights paid for

by the government of the autonomous self, soon to be a country in its own right. -- autonomous south, soon to be a country in its own right. local officials are waiting to greet them. >> i say, see this place with the forest. it has been inhabited. we're very happy to receive our people. >> the government takes, comers to the countryside to join their relatives. a barge makes its way up the nile. several returnees have hitched a ride. journey takes 11 days. the home commercers have no one waiting for them, no relatives,

and a reception committee. >> my husband is a soldier in the sudanese army. he says we should return to the south. he says he does not know what will happen in the north after the referendum. it will be safer year. >> many people have been living in this emergency camp for several days now. the children have never seen the south. that south is now to be their home. >> we had a house with three rooms and electricity, light and drinking water. we had lots of nice neighbors. but here, there is none of that. >> christina's father is working with the local government. he says that what most people need is a patch of land to farm.

he says that absolutely the most important thing they need, as they would be content with land. the southern government can do little to help. it relies on food aid from abroad to feed its own people. >> southern sudan is one of the poorest regions in the world. it is underdeveloped. it has no infrastructure. it is not in a position to cope with a large number of people coming in at the same time. >> but they keep coming. this person was 3 when he left. now common 22 years later, he is free -- now, 22 years later, he is returning, with his wife and two children. he says there is hardly any u.n. presence here. but he is sure that if people explain to the authorities and

that they need help they will get it. first, he asks the local authority. the official tells him he is in the wrong place. this is where the process those people that want to join their relatives in the countryside. but he wants to stay here. this man shows him where to go. finally, he finds what he is looking for. and he is one of the first in the cupolqueue. waiting underneath the corrugated iron worker are un officials and aid workers. -- iron roof are un officials and aid workers. one by one, the officials called out the names on the register. only those whose names are on at

the list received a yellow food card. >> this one will help you for two days. >> we want to get a yellow card. >> i wish we had won. >> he sits behind the officials, holding a list of people who arrived on the barge. he hopes and now he and his family will get something to eat. like many of the estimated 200,000 people who have recently returned to southern suzadan, they have nowhere to go. >> i would take any jobs so that i could send my children to school. they should have a better life than not live on the streets. >> the people here know that it will all take time, but at least they have a free country they

can call their own. >> for more, i am joined by my colleague who has reported extensively from sudan. sudan is a failed state. why is there reason to believe that a in an independent south sudan will be able to function? >> the process of referendum was very peaceful. the outcome was accepted from the north. but what you can see here as well is that hundreds of thousands of people want to come back to their home in the south, and the south is a very poor country. the infrastructure is down a, is very poor. they have maybe some rough erodes, but they do not have enough food or health services. there is no electricity.

people like starving. altogether, it -- people are starving. altogether, i would say that the development needs here are very great. >> is one of the least developed regions in the entire world. what do you think needs to be done first? >> fares, it is critically important that there should be a program of post-referendum meetings because stability and security are very important for the people, first of all, but as well as for the donors and investors. the border demarcation is not clear yet. it is not clear how to share the oil revenue, and there are still some ethnic conflicts going on in the area. to solve all of these problems, this is very important to begin.

it is important that the international donors worked closely together to cooperate. >> your their best allies both politically and in terms of aid -- who are their best allies in terms of both politically and with a? >> the united states, britain, norway, they all play a role and they have political influence. it is very important because the self needs a huge infusion of capital in the next -- the south needs a huge infusion of capital in the next months or year. and other leaders expect the selfisouth to have good governm. i am sure they will keep an eye on it. >> thank you very much. that is it for us. thank you for watching.

♪ - hi, this is bob scully, and welcome to another edition of the world show, a special "in memoriam" edition devoted to the late richard holbrooke. richard holbrooke and dr. henry kissinger are often referred to as the great american diplomats of the second half of the 20th century. mr. holbrooke had many accomplishments to his credit.

perhaps the one that shines brightest are the so-called dayton accords, reached in dayton, ohio, in 1995, which brought peace to the balkans. he would later write a best- selling book about that called to end a war. i had the pleasure of sitting down with him in manhattan. he was working as an investment banker at credit suisse, and he was working precisely on that book, and we discussed the dayton accords. here once again is richard holbrooke, who passed away unexpectedly last month at the age of 69. ambassador holbrooke, there are a lot of good diplomats around the world who, as diplomats should do, are called upon to ease tensions and bring about agreements. we've had boutros- ghali on the show, and pérez de cuéllar, and dr. kissinger, but you have stood out from your class, so to speak, your graduating class of diplomats. you tackled bosnia, and lo and behold, you got an agreement. how did you do that? - well, i think it was a combination of factors. first of all, the timing was right,

and timing is everything in diplomacy. secondly, we were backed up by the full political and military commitment of the president of the united states. the bombing--the nato bombing-- was critical. and, on a more personal level, i think it was a very persistent effort. we never gave up. we were very tenacious. quite aggressive. and the un diplomacy--you mentioned boutros-ghali a moment ago--the un diplomacy was very passive. they may disagree with that. they may tell you they weren't passive. and god knows we paid an enormous bill through the un, and people suffered and died, but the diplomacy was pretty weak. - and when--in the realm of diplomacy, we tend to think that words are used as shadows and don't always mean what they're supposed to mean--when do you cut through that and let mr. milosevic or somebody like that know that this time it's serious. isn't there an art to that? to saying, "okay, that was off the record. now, this is

for real." how is that done? - well, i think milosevic knew it was real, because it was the highest level negotiating team the president had ever sent, and after the tragic accident on mt. igman, where three of my four team members were killed, when we returned to the area, the serbs of bosnia had lobbed a mortar into the downtown marketplace in sarajevo, killing 37 people, and we had responded, finally, belatedly, but decisively, with nato bombing. so milosevic knew this one was for real. - was it true--a lot of observers in the world media and a lot of world opinion thought that in the end, the bosnian serbs, they had it right. they were going down the straight road of their interests, and the west was sort of wimpy and mushy until you came along. was that basically true? - i think that it is a correct perception that karadzic,

mladic, and the bosnian serbs were holding the entire world at ransom, with an outrageous resistance to world pressure. one can admire their tenacity and ruthlessness, but they were wrong--profoundly, morally wrong--and i hate to dig back for what may sound to some people like hackneyed clichés, but there are times when the only way to deal with thugs is to use force. and the 1930s were such a time, and the opportunity was lost, with tragic consequences, and at a lesser scale, this was another such case, and again we were too slow. - isn't it in the nature of thugs to test you? saddam hussein paid dearly for the test that he attempted, but in other cases--we can think of idi amin and a number of dictators who were doing horrible things; and even in rwanda, somalia, and many places, the west was not so

forceful--none of them hark back to the times when the free world has been very determined; they hark back to the times when nothing has happened, which are probably more numerous. - well, it is impossible to take every crisis and every tragedy in the world, and apply force-- to use an old phrase--to be the world's policeman. there are certain areas--you just mentioned a couple--where the reach of western power would be pretty marginal. that was the case in somalia. we did a great job, in humanitarian terms, of saving lives, but we couldn't solve tribal war. it may turn out that we're similarly unable to solve all the problems of bosnia. the dayton agreements are filled with problems, and no one knows these problems better than those of us who spent 21 extraordinarily difficult days behind the high-wire fence at wright-patterson air force base in dayton, ohio. but the fact is that in bosnia we had a national interest, because it was europe, and europe is america and

canada's backyard strategically, and we were able to do something. it was belated, it was reluctant, but it was decisive. - and you said the magic word, and i saw you smiling a bit. you said "dayton", and i smiled, and that's because people say that was your idea, and you did it, basically. you took these leaders to dayton, ohio, so they wouldn't be in the palaces of geneva, i read somewhere, so they wouldn't be too comfortable and so on. is that true? - it wasn't a question of physical comfort. we tried to make them as comfortable as possible in dayton. but there was a very serious argument within the us government about whether the talks should be held in europe or the united states. the negotiating team very strongly recommended, unanimously, that the talks be held in the united states, because that way we would have maximum influence over them. there were people in washington less sure of themselves who were afraid that an american venue

for the talks would risk failure, or--let me rephrase that--would accentuate a failure, and therefore we should let them go to europe. the french were particularly anxious to hold the talks at évian-les-bains on the geneva lake. i just felt that we had to control the venue, so i pushed very, very hard for an american venue. the president made the decision on the morning of october 5, as we were about to announce the ceasefire. by the way, izetbegovic, milosevic, and tudjman all wanted an american venue, and that was important. none of them wanted europe. then, we set about looking for a place. we originally were thinking--we knew it couldn't be an urban center, and we knew it couldn't be in the washington area, and we knew it should be isolated so that we could keep you and your colleagues of the press out, because, with all due respect, you cannot have the negotiation if the give and take is reported to the world on an hourly or daily basis. people

posture, people get dug in, public pressures, experimental probes, quid pro quos--it all gets lost. we originally were thinking of something like the rockefeller state outside new york, but it just wasn't big enough, so finally the military said, "why don't you look at a few military installations?" wright-patterson air base was the best venue we could think of. - but you know, the image that we get is, mr. begin and mr. sadat, well, that was camp david because it was an elegant agreement with statesmen-- - but the reason we couldn't go to camp david--the primary reason we couldn't go to camp david--was we couldn't fit 800 people in. bob, we had 800 people behind the high barbed wire. three countries--camp david was only two: israel and egypt--we had bosnia, croatia, and serbia. five contact group members: britain, france, the united states, germany, and russia, plus carl bildt

for the eu. so six kind of co- negotiators. secret service all over the place. we needed a very large area. the us air force provided us that. it turned out that the accident of being on a mighty air base, the home of aviation, the largest aviation museum in the world, 25,000 american troops, and the fact that we were in the heartland of america in the state with the most serbs and the most croats in the country, all of which was almost incidental at first, all of it turned out to be a big plus. the people of dayton formed human chains around the base to pray for peace. there were vigils, they lit candlesticks-- - and did they realize this, milosevic and tudjman, and-- - well, there was one wonderful day when milosevic and i were taking a walk--bitter cold-- and there were these bullhorns for the albanian community of dayton, ohio--albanians!

i didn't even know there was such a community until then-- bellowing at him that he was denying the rights of the albanian people of kosovo, and he could hear this, and i said, "you want to go visit these people at the gates?" he said, "nah, they're all being paid $50 a day to do this. there aren't that many albanians in the whole state of ohio." and although they joked about being kept like prisoners at "camp dayton", as we called it, or "dayton place" sometimes, the fact was that they all got out. milosevic went to a shopping mall, izetbegovic went to a tulane-louisville football game, so it couldn't have been better. - and maybe you can't answer this, but when you say you wanted to "control" the venue, i have to assume when the serbs, the croats, and the bosnians met in their huddles, did you guys bug that? - no, we didn't bug. no. - so you played it by the rules. - you can't do that. you can't

do that. i mean, intelligence goes its own mysterious ways, but you can't do that kind of thing. - and were there showdowns? - yeah, a lot of showdowns. - it is said that at camp david there was some of that. that at some point, president carter had to get the heads to butt together. - well, what happened at camp david--and we studied camp david, and i talked to carter before we went to dayton--was that they threatened to walk out, both sadat and begin. we got a prior agreement from milosevic, izetbegovic, and tudjman that they wouldn't walk out, and they kept to their word on that. but there was tremendous drama. very different from camp david, but a lot of yelling, a lot of screaming. tremendous internal fights in two of the three delegations. the serb delegation had a huge fight between the belgrade serbs--milosevic and company-- and the pali serbs. the bosnian delegation had an internal conflict between the prime minister and the president-- silajdzic and izetbegovic-- who are now running against

each other. and the bosnian delegation also was kind of like a mini yugoslavia, with croats, serbs, bosnian muslims, and quote "other", which is mixed- marriage or jewish members of the delegation, so all of the tensions of the balkans were reflected in that delegation. only the croatian delegation was unified and coherent, because tudjman is not only the captain and quarterback; he owns the team. - and what does being tough mean? they say that when these showdowns came, you were tough, and you sort of made it happen. what does being tough mean when you're talking to heads of state, who are super tough to begin with. what does it mean? - well, do i look like the kind of person who'd yell at somebody? - no! that's why i'm asking. maybe it's not that at all. maybe you were just very... - well, the press has somewhat exaggerated the yelling issue, but there were some moments when everyone yelled at each other, but you deal with each person and each circumstance on its own merits. you know, i spent most of my career working on asia, not on europe. and over 20 years

in asia, there never was an article about my raising my voice or yelling. why? because you don't deal with asians that way. but you have to match your method to the moment, and your style to the situation, and in this particular situation. you have to be very tough, very blunt, sometimes. and if i look back on it now, bob-- and we're looking back on it now because i'm writing a book about the period and the state department is doing a very, very intense historical collation-- as i look back on it, the only questions i ask myself about it retrospectively are, "were we tough enough?" there's no point at which i think we were too tough. - mm-hmm. but the opposite might apply. - there are some points where maybe we should have been even tougher. - and wasn't, in the end, the greatest pressure on those three heads of state an objective one?

the fact that they went in there under the glare of world attention would have made them horribly foolish to come out and say, "we still can't agree." - of course. you're absolutely right, bob, but we went down to the last hour--the last half hour--before we were about to open our press conference to announce failure. on the morning of november 21, 1995, we woke up in the morning having given our ultimatum to the parties the night before that they had to agree, and they had failed to agree. and we had drafted our failure statements and distributed them. six or seven hundred journalists were gathered at dayton, and the bosnians had announced that we had issued them an ultimatum, and the conference was over. so this was worldwide headlines on the television that morning. in the final meetings on that unbelievably dramatic november 21, it all came together, but only in the last 30 minutes. - what changed it?

- i believe that it was only when the parties confronted the absolute failure that loomed a few minutes away that they made the final concessions to avoid it. so it goes back to your point: get them together, put them under self-imposed, self-created pressures and the world press, and they'll have to agree. that does not, however, mean that when we get them back out into the real world of the balkans they will implement. but the agreement was done only under the force of certain failure minutes away. and let us be clear here. the final, most difficult side here was the bosnians, because they had suffered, because they were the victims of the war, because they were the main target of ethnic cleansing. they felt that they deserved a complete victory over

their aggressive adversaries. from a moral point of view, from the point of view of justice, they were completely right, but from a point of view of the negotiation, they couldn't win militarily without nato support, and the nato countries--and here, by the way, i very much would include the canadians as well as the americans, because we work very closely with our friends in canada--here, nato was not prepared to go in and take sides. the bombing was bombing for peace, not bombing for victory, so izetbegovic faced a horrendously difficult problem, and he made a very courageous and correct decision. - so he's the one in the last half hour who had to give, in the end. - no, no, on the night before, on the final agreement, he was the one who refused to make an agreement. when milosevic then realized that it was over, milosevic came to us on the morning of the 21 of november,

and said, "i'll walk the last mile for peace", and he made some final concessions. we then went back--this "we" being secretary of state, warren christopher, and me--went back to see izetbegovic and said to izetbegovic, "this is it. in 20 minutes, we're going on to announce failure, but milosevic has made this one last offer, which is to put the town of brcko--which is on the sava river--up for arbitration." each side wanted brcko. milosevic said, "we'll do an arbitration in a year." this was a nice way of kicking the can down the road for 12 months. izetbegovic took a long pause. he said, "it is not a just peace, but my people want peace. let's go forward." - ambassador richard holbrooke, let's go back to the balkans before the dayton peace accord. you mentioned the tragic death of your colleagues, which fired you up personally. could you describe exactly what happened? you were in a convoy... - we were trying to get in

to sarajevo. sarajevo was under siege, the airport was closed, the only way to get in was to fly by helicopter to the top of mt. igman, and then go to a soccer field on the other side of mt. igman, and then go over the pass. we knew it was the most dangerous road in europe, and the day before the trip, i went to milosevic, and i said, "this is an outrage. the american peace mission should not be required to take this. we want to go in by air safely." and he said, "i'll send a message to mladic." he wrote a piece of paper. we waited. fifteen minutes later, the answer came back, "we can't open the airfield, but you can go in by the road from kiseljak." well, the kiseljak road goes through serb checkpoints. i said, "we can't go through serb checkpoints." bob frasure was sitting next to me. he leaned over to me and he whispered, "we have no choice." the next day, we landed by helicopter at the soccer field on the edge of mt. igman, and then got into two vehicles. general clark and i got into

the humvee, the modern version of the army jeep, and our colleagues got in an armoured personnel carrier driven by some frenchmen, and we set off over this road, which was a red dirt road, quite thin in places. the french were upgrading the road, they were working all along it. and we came to a certain point, and there was a french convoy going the other way. it pulled up against the side of the road, and we went around the outside of it, and when we got to the end of the convoy, one of the french waved us to a stop and started yelling something. we were in an armoured--it was armoured, so we had to get out, and he said, "you know, the vehicle behind you seems to have fallen over--disappeared." so we turned around, and it took me a moment to realize that that had to be our car. and we ran back to the spot where the road had crumbled a little. we couldn't see anything--the trees had been flattened. we looked for it, we couldn't find it. we started

down, and then land mines, explosions everywhere, small arms fire. the french were yelling, "mines! mines! get back on the road. there are mines". so then, after a long period of time, we realized that the armoured personnel carrier had fallen below the next turn in the road, and then we knew it was terrible. and we started running around the turn--we must have run in our flack jackets and helmets for a kilometre. we ran to the next point in the road where we could see where this thing, like a plough, had just cut the trees down. to make a long story short, three of the americans in the car and one of the french died. two americans in the car and two of the french survived. it fell about 400 meters. it was an accident, but it was an accident of war. it was caused by the war. - and did you later use the pain, the sadness,

the indignation, when coming to people like milosevic? after all, if he had helped you more, it wouldn't have happened. did you channel that emotion into the work? - it's not easy for me to answer that question. i do know this: at many critical moments in the negotiations, my colleagues and i thought of bob frasure and joe kruzel and nelson drew. we dedicated the mission to them, and we brought out the wives of the three men, and the children, to dayton on the first sunday without any publicity--we didn't want anyone to think we were exploiting this--and i made a very emotional speech to these families, saying, "we are here to day because of your husbands and fathers", and there was a lot of crying and so on, and so it was an ever-present factor. i cannot say whether the outcome would have been different with or without this tragedy.

- a lot of people watching, i think, will have to admit that in the west, just as we demonized saddam--but maybe we were right--we demonized khomeini, we tend to think of a lot of third world rulers-- obviously they're not democratically elected and they're not nice guys; they wouldn't be up there--but we tend to think of them as so immoral and so thuggish that, in the end, if we get any kind of agreement with them, it's through force or bullying or whatever. they're hopeless people to be dealing with, and especially in the balkans. we think of the three that you dealt with, plus the pali serbs, as being horrible people. are we right, or are we exaggerating? - uh... you're right. [both laughing] - i finally got my answer. - that was easy. - and it's a terrible answer. i mean, in the end, the third-- - the answer's shorter than the question. - would you say that the third world, by and large, is ruled-- outside of the democratic regimes--is ruled by peop--

- no, there are 180 countries in the world, and democracy has been increasing rapidly. there are far more people living in democratic conditions today than there were ten or 15 years ago in the world. most of latin america has gone from military dictatorships to democracy. the former soviet union has more personal freedom than ever before. the elections in russia this summer, while russia's a mess, were a big step forward. eastern and central europe are having advances. taiwan, the philippines, korea--all more democratic. the net plus in political freedom for the world is enormous. but there are bad people in the world, and, you know, people like hans morgenthau and reinhold niebuhr were not always fashionable, but they were correct when they said you have to confront the fact that some people aren't just misunderstood, they're bad! - but you will still do your job. you will go see them and get them to agree, because

it saves lives. - you know, there was a very difficult moment in negotiation when, on september 13, with the bombs falling all over bosnia and milosevic said he wanted us to negotiate directly with karadzic and mladic-- two indicted war criminals; the two worst men in europe since stalin's death-- we were prepared for that moment. we'd always known it would come, we just didn't know when. and when we met these men-- i said everyone can do whatever they want; i didn't shake their hands; some people did--i had very much in mind the question you are asking: can you meet with the devil? and i was much guided in this by the histories of two people who had negotiated with himmler and eichmann in world war ii: raoul wallenberg and folke bernadotte, two

swedes. my wife, kati marton, had written biographies of both men, so i was very familiar with this. their theory was very basic: if they could save people who were still alive, they would meet with the murderer, of which eichmann and himmler are the two prime examples. and they did. wallenberg saved 300,000 people. bernadotte saved maybe five or ten thousand. and i can tell you for a fact, bob, that there are tens of thousands of people alive in bosnia today, who would otherwise be dead or wounded, because of our efforts. and even if the peace isn't perfect, the fact is that the negotiations stopped the war. we haven't won the peace yet, and for that, it's acceptable to deal with people, as long as you know what they are and don't fool yourself. - ambassador holbrooke, thank you. good luck.

- thank you. - ambassador richard holbrooke died unexpectedly in washington, d.c. last month at the age of 69, and this was a special "in memoriam" tribute edition of the world show. i'm bob. hav. thanks. closed captioning by sette inc.