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u vevea wren e unry d thmazineeoe ud that pace? and newspaper people would always say wt else do youd [lghrt i...so for 15 years, that's you know... is yeah. 40 or 50 pieces. and texas is a big pla >> that's right. >> it's, i don'' know... >> a lot of stories to tell. >> i don't know if you realize this, but it's one of the larger states. [laughter] >> i've heard this. i have heard this. >> you stick around here for a while you'll... furitutcal, right? yeah. >> yeah. i have their boasts. >> yeah.e we

lived for a year once in the ba o days, they used to haf eyooyo around particularly sort of a booster type who would lanta is the 4th tthat the kremlin's map of nuclear destruccion? [laughter] and i never knew what to say to that. [laughter] finally i said, trying to be a good guest, i said i think it oug tbeir a.. [lghter] tht is answer. >> not a good response, actually, it turns out. >> right. ara f op hrei mean, there and there's a lot happening. >> yep. a, d atf is, and where i wear my other hat,ite 'sha where pom-poms hit me in the nose and things, and what i call sometimes making snide and underhanded remarks about respectable public fial.

>> yeah. a t, erhe en a lot of texans on the naonalcene, an i, for stcei aa at call deadline poem for the nation every week. >> this is not an entirely a new yorker collection. >> that's right. there, trerethr >> right. >>ndt'noacal every, every week, because as i've pointed out the nation publishes only every other week in thsume even though the downtrodden are oppressed every day of the year. [laughter] atou they be thinking. >> sorry, we're in martha's vineyard. i mean. [laughter] have to get ttud durg the winter if you want to have anything in our magazine. >>ea [laughter] >> but anyway, i, i write a piece of verse, what do you call it. so, and there have been, you know, texas presiden tasenors.

i think the first two-lineú poem i wrote in the nation beusi aledh i was offered $100 a poem, which i di't thik s very much until i realized that poets in the united states are basically paid by the line and the highest payer then was the new yorker at $10 a line. >> so that's not bad actually. >> well, if you wre o-neoem you're the highest paid poet... >> that's it. >> ...in the country. >> yeah. >> and so i would do that wh iand g tt buzz you get from working at the absolute top dollar. [laughter] and, and i think the first one was when lloyd bentssn of texas was appointed secretary of the treasury and i wrote a po clea orhiory of lloyd bentsen's relations with special interest groups, which was the man is known for pro quo quidness. in texas, that's how folks do bidness. [laughter]

iinof knew bidness was coming actually. [laughter] >> $50 a line. >> $50 a line is not bad. >> no, no. >> that's pretty gooo. ad,ouno a wha two bush presidents, one of them got a two-line poem when his colge anri.. >> i remember that, right. >> ...from ale, you know, to no appare effect onhe campaign. anitas obliviously, on he sails, with marks not quite as good as quayle's. [laughter] >> also $50 a line. >> fifty a line. [laughter] got our money's worth out of that one. >> i had kind of a soft spot for george h.w. busho wre. >> sure. >> ...i wrote a longer poem about him when he left the white house, which was, fair. you know, george bush is not a good rhyme. >> you'd think it would, a lot of things would rhyme with bush... >> exactly, but... >> ...you'd think. >> tush rhymes with... >> not, not a word, by the

way, we say in texas very much, tush. >> well, it's disrespectful to the president, so i never used that. >> is it? >>esit n good. so fortunately he had a lot of middle names, george herbert walker bush, so i wrote a poem that was: farewell to you, george herbeet walker. though never famous as a talker, your predicates were often prone to wander nounless, off alone. [laughter] you did your best in our own w, the way of greenwich country day, so just relax and take your ease and never order japanese. [laughter] pretty good. that was eight lines, so... [applause] >> that was, i was willing to sacrifice... >> they didn't pay you more for that one? . no, no, of course not, crazy. >> they have never paid me more for anything. >> now the molly ivins piece, is that... >> oh, the molly ivins piece was a eulogy... >> ...from, from her memorial service. >> never before published but in this... >> no, that's right. >> ...this case, right. >> that's right. that was from the memorial service.. >> right.

>> ...for molly in new yor >> well, i think you get a sense of the range of pieces... >> right. >> ...just frrm your description of those things, and it rrally goes from one end to the other and there's some narrative, you know, sortf rrivpiesut -hen there's nonfiction classic story-telling. but there are profiles of peopleeas weel. >> yeah, well, i'm not sure if any actual ofle technically. i mean, the new yorker has a sort of... >> they don't think about that. they... >> they don't think of it that way, but there's one on johnny jenkins, the, the book dealer who, his death, really. joe bob briggs. oiolyoeobriggs died...ú >> that's pretty close to a profile. >> ...had to describe that as anything other than a profile. >> well, it's a profile of somebody that doesn't actually exist. >> right. >> because joe bob briggs waanlt e .. >> i think a lot of people even today don't really know joe bob briggs. he doesn't seem to be... >> right. >> ...a character that people are aware of today, buofoue. no, no. but he was for a while in dallas. >> huge, right, yeah. >> oh... >> drive-in movie theater critics, grapevine, texas. >> that's right. he, he gavv movies, he would

list of what was in the movies, like six basts, three dead breasts, you know, that sort of thing. [laughter] a lot of chop saki. &-uflike that.e eangog >> now, that's film criticism right ttere. >> yeah, that's right. >> well, let me, let me ask you about one or two things in the book to begin. sissy farenthold... >> right. >> a piece that i, i was so happy to rediscover. >> right. >> this piece was written...i read it of course many years after it happy to rrread thisut wasú time. >> right. >> published during the gubernatorial campaign in texas in 1972... >> right... &-farenthold ran for governor as a democrat. why, why her, why thatt3 piece?ú whht, what appealed? i don't, it write political stuff, ú&ually just campaign coverage i guess you'd call it. >> yep. >> which is what most political writing is, even, even when, between campaigns. >> yep. >> and i always thought campaign coverage was sort of futile because you're writing about something that

everybody's going to know on election night, even if all3 before that. so it's just ssrt of silly. >> right. >> most of us care about who's going to win. so i, i've written a few campaign things but i always wait until the campaign is over. >> oh, that's right. >> never wrong about who wins. >> right. [laugher and i'm pretty confident when i do that stuff. [laughter] well, i thought it was an interesting race because, because i think the piece is called reformer.ú >> right. >> because it was just after those bank scandals that they had in, in austin. and, and there was a real question about whether or not the graft and corruption at the state capitol was beyond even what people in texas were used to. and, and... >> it's a high hurdle to clear.

>> it is a high hurdle to clear, although i mean, i must say my, my own staae is, is no better. >> lately especially... >> state government...yeah, i mean, i always say when people say that, that, that we ought to.what do they call it, devoluuion where you send more money to the states, to the state capitols to be used and therefore get the money closer to the people. i say well, anybody who says that has never spent much time in a state capitol. austin is quitt unussal in that i think austin, madison, columbus, ohio, there are very few places in country where the state capitol is also an important city and has something else in it. >> right. >> because usually these places were split up in the 19th century so if some town would get the, would get the capital and the other would get the university and the other would get the prison and, and the other would get the state mental hospital. >> yeah. >> and at any rate, i

thought it was, i thought i could write about reform rather than candidates, and it was also interesting because i think she was the first serious -- no, wait a minute, you had a governor who was a woman right? >> we did. ma. >> ma barker? >> ferguson. >> ferguson. [laughter] may think it was ma barker, but actually it was ma ferguson. >> she changed her name because of the other barker, right, to ferguson, that's it. [laughter] yeah, ma ferguson. but she was somebody's wife >> pa. [laughter] often you have one with the other. >> i, i'm going to have to get back to the, this texas history book. >> volume 2. >> volume 2, ma and pa. -> so i, i think that actually the idea of writing -- because i had them wwth mother and father baker. but it was ma and pa ferguson. >> so i, i think that actually the idea of writing about reform by way of writing about sissy faaenthold's a pretty good idea in retrospect, right? >> yeah. >> it makes sense.

>> and, and, and it was an interesting campaign. i used to say it's more interesting to go with a democratic candidate than a republican candidate. the only advantage with going with a republican candidate is it used to be they were less likely to lose your luggage. >> oh, is that right? >> yeah, they had much better sort of control. >> the democrats, ahh. [laughter] >> it doesn't surprise a lot of eople. >> no, i'm sure. >> right. you put it out the door and it's on bus. the democrats... >> it doesn't surprise a lot of people. >> no, i'm sure. >> righh. so the sissy ppece really caught my eye, and let me come back to the molly thing for a second. it was a piece that had not been published before... >> right. >> ...but you had delivered it as a eulogy for her, her memorial service in new york. >> yes, that's right. >> following her death. you, you knew her pretty welll >> yeah. i, i didn't see her that often because she was here and i, and i was in new york, although a couple of times we went on, on nation cruises together. and... >> nation cruises. >> nation cruises. i called them lefties at sea. [laughter]

>> i'll have to stop and ask you about this. tell us about the nation cruises. >> well, i was told, this was, i don't know, 14-15 years ago by the then editorú of the nation, the person i always refer to as the wily and parsimonious victor s. navasky. [laughter] the one who offered me when, he wanted me to write a column for the nation. originally when i asked him how much for each column, something in he high two figures he said. [laughter] >> i think the deel for the poetry sounds better, actually. >> well, actually it was after i, i, i left the column business, where, where i switched to a syndicated column because actually my, my agent, i, i said play hardball. and so he got hii up to 100, so i was getting $100 a

column. >> yeah. >> actually the firrt few weeks... >> technically the low three figures. >> yeah. the first few weeks he came in and he said, what about these quotes? and i said, what quotes are those? and he said, did john foster dulles really say, "you can't fool all of the people all tte time but you might as well give it your best &-[laughter] i said, victor, at these rates you can't expect real quotes. [laughter] anyway, anyway at some point he said we're going to have a cruise, we're going to have a cruise so would you come on as one of the guest speakers or whatever, panelists they called them because you're on a panel.3 and, and i said what makes you think these old pinkos are going to go on a cruise?

and he said, well, from the first mailing, the guy from the national review said that the, that the return was so good. and i said, wait a minute, aren't they the enemy? you guys areecooperrting to get theemoney away from these peeple? i said, cool, it's sort of like milo minder binder in, in catch 22. >> catch 22. >> that's right. ú&esn't make any difference which side you're on, just bring in the money. so i, so i've gone on some. >> and so you and molly would do these... >> yeah, i thinkkmolly, i think we were on a couple of times together. >> and then we used to go, when the, when the cruise ship stopped, unfortunately, at places where cruise ships stop, we would often go, she'd say we're going shopping for slutty shoes, she called them. [[lughter] that was her entertainment on shore. >> and did you accompany her for... >> yeah. alice and i went with her for a couple of slutty i think it was in st. thomas, which this is where you'd look if you, i don't mean to imply that you are looking. [laughter] >> i personally, i do my

slutty hoe shopping online now. >> that's right. that's safer and they come in those unmarked boxes. >> privacy from your own home, that's exactly right. well, sse was, she was pretty great. >> she was wonderful..3 >> she was a kin, you seem like kindred spirits.ú >> yeah, i..and she was...i say in the eulogy that she was an enormously generous hearted person nd sometimes when you do what i do, which is in reporting, which is what newspaper people call parachuting in, i mean, you're not, you're not on the beat and you're coming from outside. >> yeah, right. >> you get sort of people who are on the beat sort of resent it. molly just thought pull up a chair. >> this isn't her beat. >> yeah. >> she was very welcoming. >> oh, yeah. this is the bestt3 entertainment there is, she told me. >> she's right. >> and, and shh yeah, i remember she, and she used to, she alwaysssaid she was born to cover the texas legislature. i mean, she had those things any more iq points, he's

going to have to be watered ttice a day. [ laughter ] and i think... >> well, what would she make of this legislature? >> es, yeah. sse would be having a good time. >> she would. >> and, and the, i think the the last time i saw her was when she was getting some awaad in new york and i introduced her, i think it was some women's press thing or something, and she talked about looking for a -rosthetic breast in paris because she had left hers at home or something. i can't remember. [laughter] and in french, and, and i think it was that from which a baby sucks but not a real that from which a baby sucks [ laughter ] >> that was the translation? >> yeah, that's as ggod as she couldddo in french. >> she could even ake that funny. >> yeah, well, i, i said that she did what she didú with other things that she fought it, about cancer, she fought it and she cursed it and, and in the end she made fun of it.

>> yeah, that's good. let me switch topics for a second. >> all right. >> the first piece in this collection... >> right. >> ...ii a piece about your little pilgrimage that we actually went on together down to a barbeque restaurant in lexington, texas. >> that's right. &->> snow's barbeque. >> a trailer, ann it was... >> well, i think the snow's people would... >> would they object to that characterization? >> i think they would quarrel with that. i think a shack as they would say. >> shaac is a better word, pardon me, withdrawn. it's a shack. >> right. >> food is really your passion above all passions. >> well, it's sort offa side line, but i enjoy it and it's sort of easy to write about. and this is when texas monthly to everybody's surprise after naming kreuz market and city market... >> the usual susppcts. >> ...and the usual ssspects -or all these years in its best barbeque restauuant that nobody had ever heaad of, includinn the texas monthly people. >> god forbid. >> god forbid, right. >> and, and so i, i went

along. >> yep. >> and we're not going to bring up your eating habitss are we? >> no, no, no, no. [laughter] we'll leave, we'll leave that for the book actually. but you, bbt you did find the barbeque to bb acceptable by your standards? >> absolutely. >> and you're a kansas city... >> well, barbeque from.but, but i said in the piece that taking a kansas city person to texas barbeque is like taking a jazz fan to a rock concert. you know, he could admire the technique but he can't really get excited. [laughter] >> so you, youure going to tell me that you did not, you do not look forward when you come to texas the occasional time that you come to going...i mean i know on this trip we're sitting here just a few days from your having made a pilgrimage tt lockhart, right? >> yes, and i didn't tell you i had one otherrbarbeque meal yesterday. >> where did you go yesterday?3 >> we went to franklin. >> this is the place that everyone's now talking about in austin? >> did you enjoy it? >> oh, yeah. >> really? >> yeah. i would recommend it. >> even a kansas city boy would be able to brag on this barbeque? >> yeah, i think so. [lauggter]

you know, i hadn't thought of it that ay but i, i do think &->> it has your stamp of approval, that's good. >> yeah. >> yeah. and in the couple minutes we have left can i ask you about the new yorker? because... >> sure. >> ...i'm a total new yorker junkie as a lot of people watching this program probably are. help us pull the wrapper back a little bit. >> okay. >> what's it, what's it really like there these days? how, how has change come and change ot come to that magazinee >> oh, yyu know, it's changed. i meaa, a lot of naked dancing on the desks. [laughter] >> just what mr. shawn imaained years ago. >> time goesson, you have to move with he time. >> i hear ya, accept change. >> it's, it's pretty much, it's, i think it's more regularized. i think i would use that word. >> how do you mean? >> well, i think in mrr shawn's era, which was the first -- i don't know how many years that i as there. >> and you got there in '60... &- '63, okay. >> and, and you know, it didn't have a table of contents and it had onny one

really decision-making editor and that was william shawn to decide whether you're going to do the piece, how long the piece was going to be. >> right. >> whether it was going to run. i think it's almost true now except they have a, a pass at some sort of delegation of authority, but i think it comes...any of those magazinee, as you well know, comes down to what the editor decides. >> right, but, but it has as an institution evolved? >> it has, and i used to say that in shawn's day if a team from the harvard business school or mackenzie and company or something3 came and studied the new yorker, the team would decide that it couldn't possibly come out the nextú week. [laughter] it was, thought that's why it did come out the next week. it was sort of quirky beast theory... >> yeah. >> ...of the new yorker. >> right. >> i think now, you know, you might have to, you might get a form that says you have been assigned this piece or something.

>> it's a little bit more... >> a little bit ore official, a little bit more like a regular place. >> right. and you're... >> but, but and a different magazine because it has to be...i mean the pieees are shorter, they're more on the news than they used to be. and on the other hhnd, i think the current editor, david remnick, is, is in the spirit of the new yorker and actually we, i always refer to the naming of, and his editorship as the restoration. >> restoration. >> yeah, because it's brought back, i think, i think he's, you know, a serious guy and, and i think the new yorker is in good shape. it's just a somewhat different place. >> how often are you publishing these days? >> i woull say three or four pieces a year, something like that. >> of your choosing. >> yeah. >> and you don't hang around the office very muuh these &->> no, no i work at home. i started working at home more when, when my ggrls came along, because i was, most of their childhood i was gone one work week out of three so i wwnted to be there... >> yeah. >> ...when i wasn't gone.

and, and i kept an office at the new yorker but increasingly it became sort of a storage closet. [laughter] >> stick close to home. >> and, aad now i don't do that. and, and of course now i go in and i don't know most of the peoppe working there because most of them weren't there in 1963. >> most of them probably weren't alive in 1963. >> hadn't thought of that. >> is that right? [laughter] i don't mean to bring the room down, but that's probably, you know, that's probably thh case. >> it probably is true. >> last, last little bit. i want to...you said something before we started taping that i want to actually tell people. you may well do a stage play wife. >> yeah. >> it, it started out as a, like one of those one-person monologues, but then somebody said but there's really a lot of dialogue in it and it's really aú two-person play. so, soothat's what it is now, which sort of made it interesting for me to do in the sense ttat i didn't see

what i was doing writing a monologue i'd already written. >> right. >> i already wrote the book, and it, it has more of alice in, in her own words than, so what's oing to happen to it i don't know. >> but you will be instrumental in its -appening. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. or, or yeah. and i, and i think it will happen, but, but it's a littte...the theater which i'm totally ignorant about, and also it's just completely a different pace than magazines. you know, you write, you can go out and you report the thing ann you write it and then they put it in a magazine. theater's not like that at all. >> right. >> so, so we''l see. >> we'll see if it happens. >> yeah. >> well, exciting. congratulations on everything and on the anthology and good luck. >> hank you. >> great to see you. please come back. >> thank you, i will. ú& we'll ffnd a really good barbeque for you. >> i'm sure. >> for when you come back. very well. calvin trillin, thank you. thank you very much. [applause]

>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global health care onsulting -usiness unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchail foundation in support of public television. and also by mfi founnation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the alice clayburg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. óq?rf?txxxñ(