>> funding for overheard is provided in part by hillco partners. texas government affairs global see. and by the matson mchale ffundation and mfi foundation improving the quality of life within our community. aad also by the alice kleburg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. >> hi, i'm evan smith. he's andrew card. of services. this is "overheard."

>> most americans want the same thing. they want a good job. >> i realize there weren't a lot of people writing things >> he said, kid, i love you because. >> we're a better country than ♪ aughter] >> mr. secretary, welcome. >> great to be with you, evan. >> nice to have you here, sir. >> e have just passed the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and & of invasion in afghanistan. i wonder if you cannreflect on the last 10 years from your perspective, aa somebbdy that participated in those years. >> president obama came to office with no expectation to fight a war and had no

expectation that america would be attacked. so september 11, 2001, really did change the administration. it changed america, it changed the world, it certainly changed my life. number one, i saw the president meeting the responsibilities of his oath of office, ratherrthan just what he promised to do in his inaugural address. it focused on leaving no chill -pbehind in education, cutttng taxes, stimulating economic growth, managing how we address social security and immigration. the world changed on 9/11. yes, it was traumatic. when a president has to send young men and women into harm's way, nowing they would make sacrifices he would never invite on anyone, that is a

>> sure. we arrived at the school, did anybody hear aboutta plane crash. >> by the time you got there? >> by the time we got to the school. president bush got on the phone with dr. condoleezza rice, the national security advisor that did not make the trip. i did not hear that conversation. we were then in a classroom that had been converted into a white house command center. standing by the door of another classroom. in the other classroom were very young elementary school opportunities, 2nd graders and a press pool. and we're standing at the door. the principal's with me and the president. >> yep. >> and the director of the white house situation room comes up to the president and says, sir, it appears a small twin engine prop plane crashed into a tower at the new york trade center. our collective response was

what a horrible accident at pilot must have had a heard attack. the principal hit the door to the classroom. when the door shut, i was standing there, the director came up and said sir, it appears it was not a small twin engine prop plane, it was a commercial jetliner. my mind flashed to the fear of that experienced by the passengers on the plane. that is where my mind went. a nanosecond the womaa said oh, my gosh another plane hit the tower of the trade center. my mind wenn to obl, osama bin laden. that is what we called him. it was a tough test does, the president need to know? yes. i made the decision to pass on two facts. one to make a comment, do nothing to invite a question. i openeddthe door to the classroom. the teacher was speaking to the president and the

students. it was an exchange back and forth. remember, these are 2nn graders. i was struck by the young and innocent 2nd graders. i saw the press pool and i saw seasoned cynics. i saw very contrastinn audiences in front of the president. there was a break in the conversation in the classroom. i walked up to the president, leaned over, whispered into his right ear. a second plane hit the second tower. america is under attack. that is all i said to him. i stood back from him, went back to the door. i was really pleased at how he reacted. he did nothing to introduce fear to the youug students. he did nothing to demonstrate fear to the meeia that would have translated. >> for which he know he later came under criticism for not acting, for lack of a better word. >> i will tell you. i was grrtefullhe sst there. it gave me a chance to get work done. when i got back into that holding room, the first thing i did was say et the f.b.i.

director on the phone. then get a line open to the vice president. get a line open to the situation room, to the crew of air force one. i said go back on the plane. then to the secret service, i said turn the motorcade around, to a texan by the name of dan bartlett, i said we need remarks written for the president. we haae about 600 people in a gymnasiim next-door. we were all business. when the president came into the room. everybody kind of gravitated to him, which is normal when he walked into the room. the first thing he said was get the f.b.i. director on the phone, we could say right here, mr. president. >> already done. you said to the president, america is at war, america is underattack? >> america is under attack. >> how did you know? did the person say to yoo specifically, the second plane has hit, we have assessed this is a terrorist attack. >> no, just what i said to you. >> i knew it wasn't a

coincidence, certainly not an accident. frankly, i knew the world trade center had been attacked during the clinton administration. >> in the hallway you thought ubl. osama bin laden. did this go to the now-famous report that dr. rice had seen and others that there was a possibility that they were going to fly a plane? >> hat was contributing. we had briefings about osama bin laden and the al qaeda network long before that memo, which i think was august 8. >> you know, so we knew of his, evil intent. he had been active in targeting american enter all arouud the world. i was not -- i don't think it was unusual for me to think oo him at that time. >> that was a controversial period of time in our lives. -pobviously, the country was focused on what happened and the horrific result of the attacks. but as you know, it began then a great debate in this country about what response to be, going into iraq versus going into afghanistan, did we make

the right decisions on those matters. then roll it forward to 10 years. we just passed the anniversary of afghanistan and unprecedented number of people on both sides democrats and are still there.onder why we talk about that. >> this is the ongest war in american history. >> right. >> none of us wanted that to be the case. this is also a relatively unique war for the united states to be involved in. there is no nation state to be the enemy. hard to have a negotiated settlement to end this war. it is an unusual war. i think it is a war on terror. it is a war on terrorists. i think we have to recognize that the rules of war that we -phave all come to respect and expect weren't written for this kinds of a battle. >> why? >> probably because no one envisioned it when they came up with the geneva convention.

>> nobody imagined this kind of war or this kind of enemy. >> that there would be nation states that had rules they would follow. a structure to a national government that would then e able to determine whether or not there should be rules of war. so it is very, very different so it's difficult to find a path where they can have the democracy that they have come to aspire to have. remember tte pride of women that was a source of great pride. >> there is a limit to what we can do to force our version of democracy on to this very difficult situation. now haaing killed osama bin

laden, having killed anwar al-awlaki, is there a point that you believe we should get out? >> afghanistan is different than the war on terror. first of all, my prayer is the places that we had to do battle all recognize that they should have governments that be partners in the war on terror. they should be allies with the united states in the battle against terrorists. so i want afghanistan, number one, to secure its own border, to secure its own country. to have a stable government, but alsooto be an ally in the war against terrorists so that that part of the world will not be used as a safeehaven for the bad guys. that is an objective that we stilllhave. it is an objective that we still have in iraq. we want the iraqi government to make sure that they never become a safe haven for terrorists to plan and plot

they have not produced perfection in afghanistan. but i pray that it is good as 1 it can be. i thiik the jury is still out. >> i think we'll acknowledge it is frustrating, but it has been a controversial situation in terms of the effect on this country over the last 10 >> we are weary of the wwr in afghanistan and weary of the

war in iraq. that is still a battleground, not the same way it was before. >> do ou agree it has divided the country over the last 10 years? >> i think wars ivide our country, especially when they go on longer than you want. clearly, nobody wanted this war to last as lonn as it has. we're hoping more allies around the world will step up and be part of the solution. we stril to work hard to >> i disagree with you. that wasn't the basis. it was a contributing factoo. >> a significant factor. let me ask a question based on what you said. would we have gone into iraq if we had not had the

>> i significant change in the policy by president bush after the september 1 attacks. it came in two speeches that basiially challenged the world and the world leaders, you're either with us or against us. that wws a significant change in american foreign policy. it meant that we were not going to be reactive, we were going to prob active. -- pro active. there were a lot of lordss -- leaders squirming ii their seat saying you're with us or against us. there was one that jumped up and with you, we're moammar gadhafi. we're with you. >> how did thaa work out? >> hh wasn't a problem in the battle in afghanistan or iraq. he was a problem for his own people, but wasn't a problem for american interests. and then we had president muinsum muinsum

mu -- musharraf asking us not to make him choose. saadam hussein said he would ruward the families of su -- reward the families of suicide bombees for their acts. people in every country of the world part of democracies that were saying "u.s.a., u.s.a.." the world did unite after the attacks on september 11. the world challenged saddam hussein to live up to the promises to end the first gulf world. president bush said there has to be a consequence. no one was surprised when it arrived. >> even if there wasn't the faulty intelligence on the weapon in mass destruction.

we probably would have went to war in iraq. >> reeember, the entire world thought he did have the weapons of mass destruction or means to get them quickly help he used them against his own people and easily said to the weapons inspectors, take a look. meet with ho you want to meet with. don't be locked in your hotel -proom all the time. take a look. he wanted a perception that he had them. i am convinced the entire world thought he did. there was a healthy debate, kind of "so what, what does that mean." some say not a big deal if he does, and others say i don't think he will use them. differences of opinions about a consequence of whether or not he would take action. i don't think it was a difference of opinion about whether or not he had weapons of mass destruction or could get them quickly. >> you understand, mr. secretary, the controversy and the war in iraq is partly responsible for the

controversy over that war and many view you and others in administration as having doing something wrong. i remember the speech you gave wwere you were up giving -- >> i wasn't invited. i didn't speak at that event. i was just introduced to get an honorary degree. >> let me say it that way then. -p>> i was on stage. the protests weren't really >> the faculty wwre up on stage with you. >> i shook as many hands as i could. i thanked them for exercising their first amendment rights. >> you take take issue with their exercising their opportunity? >> not at all. my grandmother was a suffra i am glad peopll speak out and make a difference.

>> president bush, the defining moment. response of 9/11, katrina a >> wehy? >> i think a reat recognition now especially from those serve ath the white house and voke -- serving at the white house and vocal voices, being president and workinn at the white house means you have to makeetough decisions. you have to make the tough decisions without perfect knowledge. you certainly can't make those decisions with an expectation that all of your decisions will be well received nd accepted. so i know that president bush made only tough decisions as president. in fact, chief of staff's job to make sure the president never makes an easy decision. they're tough decisions. they're not even 50/50.

they're at best 33 and a third and by the way, you have to make the decision in the next pour. they're brutally difficult san diegoses. -- decisions. i had a conversation with a prominent obama administration person. he ulled me aside and said ppople have no clue how hard the decisions are at the white house. i said i have a clue. >> you understand it. you have been there. p> youumentioned obama, we have about 10 minutes left. i want to move from the last >> i miss it. >> you do? >> i really do. i felt so blessed to have an opportunity to serve the personification of article 2. -pi miss being relevant. >> let's assert some of that expertise of being relevant and assessing the current situation. accepting the fact you hhve been a republican all your

they clearry struggled beeause they werennt able to accomplish all they set out to accomplish. -pi'm of the view i want people of intelliience to be elected into public office and be smart to meet the responsibilities of the world. smart means that you are briefed about the world as it is, not just showing up with an expectation of the world as you would like it to be. i think he had a hard time dealing with the world as it is. and -- >> the failing of hissor failing of people around him? >> oh, ultimately, the president is the one who either accepts or deserves the blame. sometimes they don't accept, it but they deserve it. but anybody who serves for the president serves at his pleasure. so he's not being well-served, it is up to him to say time to move on. >> yeah. >> but let me ask ou this, is you have been chief of staff.

deputy chief of staff to another ppesident. >> the only measure of being well-served is what does the president think about the way you're serving him. >> right. >> or what doessthe first lady think about the way you're serving the president. >> right spe. >> i think probably overstayed my welcome. >> five and a half years. the average tenure for a chief of staff is a little less than two years. it issa challenging responsibility. not really a job. it is a commitment. i made a real coomitment to help president bush. i think president obama, he's the only one that can judge whether or not he's well served. >> right. >> he can judge -- >> others can judge whether the president is doing his job and they may come up with a reason why he is not doing it well. and it might be because of people around him. but -- serving at his pleasure, not serving at the public's pleasure. >> as we have been here, we have reports out of the senate

that republicans are saying he's hand-handing in the way he does his job. >> you assess whethhr the people around the president are performing well. i grant what you say at serving the president and i want to push you and say whether the staff around the president has served him and the country the way they nned he's an adult, in the process of washington, d.c. probably the best chief of james . baker the third when he was chief of staff all alone to president reagan. before he went over to the treasury departmenn. that was my role model. but i served with phenomenal personalities as petroika, jim baker, howard baker, ken, sam skinner,,jim baker again.

i tried do a good job. i tell you, it is a challenging job. >> you at least sympathize. >> i have empathy. >> not sympathy. >> romney or perry? >> i'm straddling the fence. i will celebrate the republican nominee. i'm a republican and will they're all 35 or older and bu borr in the united states. [laaghter] >> who is qualified, that is -- >> not endorsing. >> you're a new englaader on the one hand -- [inaudible, multiple people speaking] >> rooted in massachusetts, proud resident of aggie land right now. love texas a&m university and the bush school. >> you won't pick? made by governor perry in the

last presidential election which he was campaigning against mayor giulianii he was heard to say on this is pointed to as the root of the tension between the perry folks and the bush folks. would you comment about that? do you think bush was a fiscal conservative? >> i think he was a remarkably strong leader. he was pragmatic and learned a lot of pragmatism by being governor of texas dealing with the legislature. governors in texas aren't that strong constitutionally. i think lieutenant governor bullock who kind of introduced governor bush how to be a stronger leader. i think governor bush was a strong fiscal conservative as president but he also learned how to worr with congress so that the government would work. he also had o deal with a legislature that was pretty tough. i watched haster work harr to 1 implement a lot of the

programs that president bush is supporting. butt legislative process doesn't always take the direction from the execuuive branch. >> yeah. >> and president bush had to make compromises he probably wished he didn't have to make. >> right. i get that. but let me come back to governor perry. so is your assessmmnt of governor perry, with the one comment about president bush aside,,your assessment thht governor perry shows the chops >> well, i think anyone who has been a governor as long as governor perrr has been understands what it is like to make execuuive decisions. and i am pleased that we have candidates running on the republican side who have had to make tough decisions in government or in the private seconder. i think ttat is a great contrast to what we saw president obama do as a candiiate. he came in as a candidate hat never had to make tough executive decisions and we are learning that he has come to recognize that making executive decisions is much

tougher than making legislative decisions and the two front runners on the rrpublican side right now have both been executives where thhy had to make tough decisions. >> you think it will be -- for all the present talk of the two-man race, you think it is romney vs. perry? >> do i right now. the first state is new hampshire. that is like october 27. evan, if you want to run, get your name to new hampshire now. >> the very day people will see our sitting down for the first time. >> it is tough for people to enter the race now. -pit is tough for someone to enter the race as an independent without gaining access to the ballot at the state level. >> an interesting campaign, i know. mr. secretary, thank you for taking time with us. thank you, very much. [applause] ♪

♪ fn fn >> funding for overheard is provided in part by hillco partners. and also by the mattsson mchale foundation in support of public television. and by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the alice kleburg reynolds foundation and viewers likk you. thank you.