3 ú& >> fundiig for overheard wiih evan smitt is provided ú& in part by hillco partnnrs, texas governnent affaiis consultaacy and its global ú& health careeconsulting business unit,,hillcc3 healtt. and by the mattson mchale foundation in support of public television. -nd also by mfi foundation improving the quality of liff ithinnour community. and also by tte alice -leberg reynolds foondatton and viewers like you. thank yoo. &->> smith: i'm evan smith. he's a veteran ournaliss and prolific author whose measured, congenial presence on public television has been a welcomm respite from3 the incivility oo the world -or more than four decades. his eight billlonth book -ú i'm not sure tatts an justt-ubllshed tension city. he's jim llhrer. ú& this is overreard.

>> smith: jim lehrer, welcome. >> lehrer: thank you evan. >> smith: or i should say wellome back. texas. in austin, texas and i love >> smmth: well thank youu3 good to see you, and congratulations. this book is so much fun to >> lehrer: oh, teerific. >> smith: as i grrw up watching political debates all these memories kind of accumulated, and everythiig a loo of stuff i didn't &-know. and it mmst be for you, someone who has forgotten more abbut debates than most of us will ever know, it must have been great too ortúof just unload, on all ofúthe things you'veememoriied. that'' exactly right.

fortunate experiences. one was moderating all these debates. >> smith: right.3 >> leerer: the other was the opporrunity tt talk to, over a period over twenty years all the people who had run for ppesiddnttand vvce3 ú& president, who had participated in prrsiiential and vice presidential debates• -> smith: amazzng. >> lehrer: •and be able toú&-talkkto, yyahh >> smiih: yeah. >> lehrer: and talk to them one oo one about their debbte experience. so i'm, iiwas twice blessed. >> smith: yeah, and it wass3 eleven, the, the count thatú i comeeto is eeeven >> lehrer: that's right that's rrght. modeeated. >> lehrer: absolutely. >> smitt: presiiential and vice presidential. >> lehrer: that's right. >> smmth: goinn back to '88. &->> llhrer: 1988. >> smith: with the, the bush -nd dukakis. >> lehrer: buss and dukakis.ú >> smith: and going up through obama• >> lehrer: obama. >> lehrer: absolutely. >> smith: right, and you mentionnd you talked to uu in this ook except for >> ehrer: that's right. >> smith: let's, let's start therr.& people who could not or would ot ttlk to you for >> lehrer::well first lloyd bbnstten•. >> smith: rightt3 >> lehrer: •who had suffered a stroke and was unable to >> smith: rig me. he wanted o very much but cooll not. >> smiih: ight >> lehrerr heewas juss not up tt it.3 >> smith: and at the center of one of the grrat moments3 ii debates•. >> lehrer::oh, you bet. ú& you bet. ú&

>> smith: •over these years the journo jack kennedy -oment wouldn't it have been that? >> lehrer: eeaccly. >> smith: yeah. >> lehrer: i, i regree that very much. >> smith: yeah. >> lehrer: the other was rosssperot, wo was very somm time ago, and and he jjst also, just didn't want tootalk about it. >> smith: well let's say specificalll what t is. to, this is a great story. he figures as character. >> lehrer: exaatly. ú& >> lehrrr: the novel ii called, the lasttdebate. >> smith: yeah. >> lehrer: and ii was about a -- back in the old days, the olld theeold format, e had a moderator and three journalist panelists• >> smith: right. >> lehrer: ..-and fiction. >> smith: yeah. >> leerer: the fouu of them candidates should not be president of heeunited states because he was -- e was a terrible person who would be bad for he country >> smith: yeah. >> lehrre: and decided to make sure that debate went in such a way that this guy could not win. -> smith: rrghtt >> lehrer: aad that was the basic story..3 &->> lehrer: and it was more about the ppess than it was anyyhing, but ii he, i, i got carried away in the -laughter]

to put it milddy. firss i hadda great idea, was, because wheneeer you,33 you know i've written ss i've wwiiten a few books and• >> smith: yeah really small things that you haae do is you have to3 decide the names of the >> smith: rrght..3 >> lehrer: oo decided in &-this book,,the last debate, to make very character ii the book either present or ffrmerr3 player foo the dallas cowboys.3 [laughter] and then i got, if i had just left it alone i'ddbeen okay. i decided there would be a sunday program called, sunday with ross, something likk that. be the host of the show. >> smith: yeaa. >> lehrer: and i had,,i described what he did on the show, and what he onsiderrd to bb, what ross perotúconssdered to be less than ú& favoorbll terms..3 >> smithh right. yeah i can't imagine why3 based on your deecriptton he wouldn't havv been• -ight. >> lehrer: and hee he let me know this.ú uh,, e ttld me it wasgrossly unfair. i thought ou were my

covered him as a -ewspaperman. frrends but•-3 beeore. >> lehher: iiknew him, i knew him, ann, and, he wasú always, heeand iialways got along really welll and i ssid, well i as just; i was jjstttrying to be funny. funny. >> smith: eah. [ laaghter ] because he seemed to have so much of a sense of humor during those two presidential cammaigns, >> lehrer: right. well trusted that, and and he• >> smith: yeah >> smith: yeaa he was. so, so no benson, no perot and then shockingly to me al gore ouldn't talk to you. ú& >> lehrer: yeaa, yeah. &-he had, he was parr of two or three really major• >> ssith: oh yeah. >> lehrer: .experiences. first of all the vice ú& pressdential debate, debate3 ttat he had with stockdale and quail•.3 >> smith: right. >> ehrer: •wws ne hat got way ut of hand. >> smitt: right. >> lehrer: it was a free for all•ú >> smith: most of us rrmemberrjust, who am i why am i here, but• >> lehrer: that'' it. >> smith: .-tere was more o debates than just hat. right.& yeah. >> lehrer: a lot more thhn but thee the 2000 presidential deeatee betweenn which, nd i moderated all three of hose ú& >> smiih: right.

lehrer: um, butt when it word came back and we tried eveey which way to get, tt get im to aaree to•.3 &->> lehrrr: •dd aa iiterview, and hh just said noo he was very pleasant about it, and just said o.3 my own theeryywhich ii -ooited in the book, as you &-know evan,is that 2000 s &-just an open wounn for him..3 &->> lehrer: and he must hhve figureddthere is no way heú could talk abouttthe debates &-without talking about the whhle thing. >> ssith: the reeolltion.>> lehrer: tte resooltiin and, and my ggess is that he will writt a book, hii own -ook about, tell his own story someddy.3 >> smitt: right. >> lehrer: he's just not ready to do it. >> smith: welllamazingly, -verrybdy eese though comes around and talkk you and &--ives you their perspective. -> lehrer: that's true..3 >> smith: diddyou learn&-anything from talkkng tt them that was not evident to youu uh, eeiher participating or watching the ebates that your colleagues ii the press moddrated? >> leerer: the uh, oh a few• >> smith: couple of things? >> lehrer: •small things. but what i realll learned, -nd i really didn't say this veryywell in the book. it at all, um, ut it, itú theseefolks were.

i mean you these are politicians. >> smith: right. lehrer: politician is a word. top of the ield of -olitiis. >> smith: eah. ú& politiiians of theer time in their country. >> smith: yeah. >> lehher: and, so they mistakes in a very candid way.3 >> smith: remarkably how•. >> lehrer: right. yeah. >> smith: •how hey ere willing to admit to being fallible. >> lehrer: exaatty. >> smitt: really, yeah. and, but t was like talkingg3 shop. >> smith: yeah. >> leerer: as i saii to somebodyythe othee day, yyuú knowwbill,,iffbill clinton had his wayyhe nd i wouldd3 ú& still be talking about t. [laughttr]]3 >> smith: right. that's probably true. >> lehrer: he just loved >> smiih: yeah.ú& >> leerer: and not just talk3 aaoot how, what he did anybody did. >> smithh whaa everybody elss did. >> ehrer: because it's -ike, you know, if you're a mechanic ou wwnt to talk abouu carburetors. >> smmth: yeah.&->> lehrer: you know if -ou're a bus driver you want to talk about how to oppn tte door. ú& well if you're, if you're a,ú a ttp levee pplltician, one of the skills of thhegamee >> smith: and yyu want to ttak aaoou the good of it and the baddof it.ú smiih: righh. &->> lehree: and clinton saad presiient because of the33 debaaes. ú-he'ssone of hose guys who said that debates werr aú

rrally good thing• >> llhrer: because it forced what, what all these scattered houghts thatthe had and•. >> ssith: yyah. >> lehrer: •scattered ideas and to put them together in a succincttway and be abll ú& to defend thhm•. >> smmth: right. -> lehrer: •before mmllions and millions of people3 >> smith: well iappreciate the fact thhy alllrrcognized ú& tootell us what they're thiikinn•. ú& >> lehrer: absolutell rrght. -> smith: before weevote for3 them. >> lehrer: absolutely right. >> mith: thatti was struck by, uh, again reopening old uh, wounds• >> lehrer: sure. >> smith: uh, uh, dan quayle's own description discussion of the famous bernard shaw questionn iff3 kittyydukakis had beenn3 you want to see the pprssn3 who raped her seet to deeth. m, it's incredible hhw it &-and how for them obviously wrestling with what to do aa the timm that we idnnt see, bbt nnw hey are wwllinn to to share. >> lehrer: thhy are willing3 to talk about it, yeeh. -> lehrer: dukakis toll me that he -- his explanation for, forr that eople don't

emotional uestiin• >> smith: sure. >> lehrer::and he gave kind of wonky annwer. not onlyykind of wonky a wonky, wonky, wonky answerrú right, yeah. >> lehrer: he gave a• >> smiit: seemingly unemotiooal answer. &->> leerer: seemingly um,,3 very, very, veryymuch unemotional. ú& smmth: yeah. >> lehrer: and he said that the eason he did that,3 trying, he did explaan himself. hh said, looo i was governor& of massachusetts, i have beee involled n, iinpublicú& aafairs and publiccpolicy for years and years ad years, i've had a stroog -osition, and opposition to3 capital puniihment. i just saw ttattquestion as a policc question. >> mith: right..33 >> lehrer: and did not see it ii emotional terms. and he said, yes looking back n tti prooablyyshould ú& have, have ssen it mooe -ut he didn't say, well okay it waa a istake, everybody makes istakes. heedidn't think that he he caught for that. >> smith: what i thought was interesting was, that he thought, or it seems to me from reading this,,that he dii ot regard it as an

unfair question• lehrer: no, he did nott dukakis, who was a little to say he leass, at hh time it was asked, many years later thhught it was a >> leeree: that's right. >> smith: but the other journalists on the panel• >> leerer: eah. >> smith: •did think it was -n unfair question. >> lehrer::now that's aú story i just stumbled on, and•. >> smith: yeahh and you did not know it beforehand. >> lehrer: did not know itú bbforehand• >> lehrer::ann the othee ú& three panel, berni• bernie shaw wwssthe moderator, andd33 the thrre paaels were ann &-compton of abc, ndrea warner who was in with newsweek. >> smiih: right. >> llhrer: on the pbs news hour, they had a littll meeting to disccss their questions, the afternoon ttat afteennon. and berrie finally, he33 dddn't wantttoo but he finally olddtte three hatt33 his question waa, the kitty ú& they just went bannnas. &-yoo know, don't do that, i mean at least don't call hee -ame, ou know and thee, and they reelly tried to talk him out of t. >> ssith: yeah. >> lehrer: and that upset bernie, and he's still upsett33 >> lehrer: bbcause heú doesn't, he didnnt think

that jjurnalistt should be trying to talk other3 certain questions. >> smmth: well all throoghout these, these manyúú& think theyyare amazing storiee and i congratulate -ou on the book. it's just, forranyynn whh is great read.ú i want, i waat to quote something taa you wrote here, oo actually it's quote that you attribute to george w. bush. >> lehher: yeah >> smith: in, rolling forward from these debates that we find ourrelves n. georgeebush said, he interrsting thing about ú& ppesidennial debates is i donnt thinkkyou ever win them, ut you darn sure can lose thee. anddwhen i read that qqote i thought, rick perry. &-[laughter] -idn't say that. >> smith: well would you diiagree that what we've witnesssd in this ú& extraordinary tting of presidentiaa side is, uh someone losing as opposed to some, or sommone's losing, maybe not jjss perry but someone's losing as oppooed to somebody winnnnn? ->>lehrer: oh, absolutely. >> smith: yeahh i thought ú& that's a vvry prescient observationn >> ehrer: it's a, yeah• >> lehrer::and perry is the3

perfect example. >> smith: true. >> ehrer: because miihelle bachman was also, you know, high tiir and then once the debates egan she started to go doww..3 &->> ssith: yeeh. >> lehree: and nowwshe's in singlledigits. but perry is the mostú >> smiih: yeah..3 >> leererr where, that he announces and nearlyú mith: right down. >> lehrer: does poorly n the ffrst debbte goes down, does even, does poorly again• >> smitt: right. lehrer: second and third debates and e's, now he's single digits, his otherr his other problees aside. >> lehrer: and, iff this is3 a ood quick case and if ssmebody says these debatee don't matter•. >> smith: right. >> llhrer: they matterrbig &-time.ú -> mith: rightt wwll i want to aak you aaout that becaass ppople have ssid firss f all that debates don't matter and second of all that there aae too mmny of them. it seems to meehaaing watched these ccclls ooer the years, we are learring more•3 >> lehrer: absolutely.3 and equivalent period ofú&-time..3 >> lehher: i think he ore &-debates we hhve, the better3 off we are. >> lehrer: beffre the cable neeworks sttrted having these primary debbtess all of the eeected, aal the ú& electioneering was done in new hampshire, and in iowa• >> smith: right. carolina..3

-> smith: right. >> lehrer: and he rest ofú& tthecountty had nothing to >> smiih: ep. >> lehrer: and uh• ú& >> smithh why should we be -ut out of this? >> lehrer: yeah, and now the >> lehher: •is involved in &-this nominattng process, like it or ot. &->> mith: the reality is that most of he counnry doesn't know riik pprry. >> lehrer: no. >> smith: most of tte cain or anybody. >> lehrer: no. no..3 go backkto 2008. >> smith: rrght. were forty of tteee primaay -ebates, because ttere were neiiher side had ann3 incumbent. >> mith: open racc• -> lerer: yeaa. >> smith: righttúú->> lehrer: tte,,the worst debater on the democratic beggn was a guyynamed barak >> smith: right. >> lehher: chris dodddwas a better debater• ú&&->> smith: joe biden. >> lehrer: oe biddn, &-hillary clinnon, but by the then the next debate barakú obamaagot a little bbtter,3 on the third he got a little better. in other worrs, he got better each time here was a ebate. >> smitt: right we forget how people improve. >> ehher: it, absolutely -ight, you either improve or like romney, he's neither &-gotten betttr orrwwrse he's ú&&-just held steady. >> smith: hat''shis; his

>> ehrer: exactly, yeah, -ut it matters sse,,it ú& really does matttrr.3 >> lehrer: nn the aagumeet oh well the quessions are too short, and the annwers are too short and there are ppople creaming and hollering in tte background i coold do without all of that. ú& >> smith: right. >> ehrer::i agree that you could criticize the mechanics of the debates >> lehrer: but the impact and the importaacc can not be, i don't think, can be uuderemphasized. >> smith: it oocuus to me3 that you are not wriiing >> ehree: no. >> smiih: just generrl election debatee. >> llhrer: that's right.3 primary debates? &->> lehrer: mcneii nn i did3 ú& -,,robert mcneil nd i did aa3 primary debate in 1992. >> lehrer: ann it was we had them aroond in a -elevisionnstudio like this >> smith: muus havv been democrats because• >> lehrerr the democrats and there were• >> smith::bush was prrsidentt >> lehrer: thattssright. and, the little guy on the ttttm pole in that, around that table was a felloww3 namee bill clinton•. ú& >> smith::yeeh. >> lehrer: •who as the -overnor of aakansas. >> smmth: right. >> lehrerr and there was tom harkin• smmth: dick gephardt. &->> lehrer::paul tsongas -ick gepharrt. ú& um, the, the big games, the ú& big guys had not, had deciied not to run. cuomo..& -> ssith: eah.3 ehrer: •sam nunn, those folks had decided not to run. >> smith: it sounds lot like frankly tte race now. >> lehrer:

absolutely. >> smith: you know, where3 you• ú& -> lehrer::bob kerrr was in that group• >> smith: •group, ight. -> lehrer: and had reaaly table.& -ut the wweding went on, just likee t'ss3 &-gging on now. &--et me move away ffom, from the book nd the topic of debatts and ask you to tep ú& back and llok t the media. &->> lehrrr: yeahh smith: you've been doing thissfor a long time, that's a great thing for all of uss >> lehrer: es. >> smith: but it also ives >> lehrer: sure. or bad about our profession some elements f oor profession..3 i don't feel so good about other elements of our profession. >> lehrer: okay.3 &-firrt of all we are in our profession is in the iddle of aarevolution. >> lehrer: and, being in the middle of a revolution is not terrific.3 you don't• >> smitt: right. well i caant that's the point. [laughs] iffyou could ask. >> smith: if i could ask, i >> lehrer: he's say,,no; ttey're not rrally terrifii. -> lehrer: welllii'ssthe right now, becauue well yoo're part of thh3 revolution. llok what, look whht, ou you're symptom of the

moving revolution, what you tribune. and, we arr onnthe news ú& hour.. >> smith: riggt. ->>lehrer: •a symmtom oo the new, because we are, we have &-taken our online operation and forced, forced ii together with our bboadcast >> smith: rightt >> lehrer: and there was some lood on the taale. >> mith: but ultimately ggod? >> lehrer: ultimatelyú uuttmately good, and clashing of cultures. ú& and we,,it was, ii wassthh sure yoo ould agree with -aae if you wwach the newss33 hour on your own piik ipod with ou ame engraved on it, as long as youuwatch it. >> ssith: right, and by the in the morning in your boxer shorts. >> lehrer: absooutely•abbolutely right..3 >> smith: you know there's3 you can watch it anyttme oon3 any device•right. >> lehhrr: no, no, no, yyu can't watch it in your boxer shorts. >> ssith: are you pptting a kkbosh on ttat? [laughter] wwole dress code that we• [[aughter] ú& >> smith: apparently i've, appaaently i've missed a memo, okay, well, um. -ut the oint it that you &-are disintermediating what &-you are creating rom a3 particular time ann a particulaa venue.ú&->> lehrer: right, we're in

the serious journalism bus.serrous journalismm3 business. >> smith: right. &->> lehrerr how you actually receive thht serious jouunaaism is, is a question of mechaaics. -> sith: right. ú& >> leerer: that's my ú& posittin on this, and i feel very strongly bout•-3ú >> smith: yeah. ann it's lesssimportant howú >> ssiih: riihh. >> lehrer: aad where we have3 tto what the revooution isúú& about•. ú& >> mitt: right. >> lehrer: •what thhss of uswho are n the serious journalism business have to do issfiguue out ways to, i3 is to currte the news in complete. in ottee woods you say -kay,,you don't ave to reaa -ll the bloos, you don't havv to do all of this,and this, and this, you can go one place•-.3 >> lehrer: •and we will doú it for you. but we've earned trust; it's kind oo a re-redo of tte old i'm a gatekeeper. >> leerer: ad all the mostlyybeen ood white men. but there's aawhole new, whole new groop of gatekeepers that are oming. >> smith: yeah. ú&&->> lehrer:: e ust haven't ú&

figured ouu how to, where to place them, how to finance burden, i mean• >> ssith: yeah, it is. and so everybody, we are, weú in pprticular,,we ii3ú -dditioon o otherssas well are doinggour best to ú& collaborate nd cooperate with other people who aree3 also in he seriius news ú& business•. >> lehrer: •so we caa3 advertise and share some of the csts of serious reporting and all that sort of stuff. aad, uh, but e''e notú we're not there yet, and ú& there has been a lottof ú--> smith: yeah. >> lehrrr: i meen the print people created their on desstuction by going onnine just like thht and giving it away. smith: and for free. lehrer: for free. -hey gave it away free. &->> mith: ighh. >> lehrer: and tten they never ind.3 >> smith: put theetoothpaste bbck in theetube. >> lehrer: too late, yeah, it doesn't work. >> smith: right, yeah, ccn't do ii. >> lehrer: i caa't be done. >> smithh this, this evolutioo, which iiagree with ou, there's some lood on the floor. >> smith: buu ssill, this sounns like this is what's ú& good about the edia, thaa3 we re accepting and embraaing change.3 >> lehree: absolutely. >> smith::what's the bad pprt? >> lehrer: well the bad pprt is that there is, there are

so mmny outlett, there are ú& so mmny, so many places too ú& get.. >> smithh yep. >> lehrer: •innorration, orú about innoomation that the competition for eyeballs for ear, no, wouldn't bb ear-balls. >> mitt: ear-holes. just sounds weird.3 there's no way to get that righh.ú >> lehrer: ears, is &-ferocious. and what that has brought, tte worrt hing that has -appened in my opinion itú otherwise very, veryyhonest serious people o jazz ú-thingssup• >> smith: yep. more opinionnthan should be. i'm an old faasioned person. i believe there, thhre are &-three leggtimate ffnntions of journalism. one of them is straaght neww, ii othhr worrs, whht then the other one is what ú& does ittmeen, that's ú&aaalysis. >> smith: yep. >> lehrer: hen the third about it, or what do i think abbut it, and that's &-opinion. that, those three functions should not bb performed yú smith: mm-hmm.3 ú& carefully labeled..33 one, this is, this is reporting. this is anaaysis. ttissis opinioo. ú& >> smith: hoo old fashioned -f you. >> lehrer: oh, well, i know

this is, this s old school.3 >> smith: ittii. >> lehrer: but, what we -ook we have two cableenews networks nowwú one is left wiig and one ii riiht wwng. ú& i mean that's the way itt3 useddto be innbritain,,in print, ann till is to somm• -> smith: ssill is to some degree. >> lehrer: yeah, yeah, and the ppeple who are in the middlee cnn, areelosing audieece hand over fist. >> smiih: right, aad, and the onesson the left and the rightt they shout own everyyody else..3 >> lehrer: absolutely right. >> smiih: right. >> lehrer: anddthere is, but the thing that there, we're we haven't gotten, otten ccme to grips with it et, -etting all the attention•3 ->>smith: yeah. >> lehrer: but thee havv very small udiences. yyu know compared tto33 ccmmercial television network nn ompared to the >> leerer: but it is, we haven't donn a vry good job, and we haddto do, of ú& selling why e are•. >> lehrer: why we do what ee3 do. >> smith: yeahh >> lehrer: this isnnt about -nteetainment. &-this isn'' bbut making people cry and laugh and all that sort of tuff, and love us. >> ssith: rrggt.ú >> lehrer: this is aaout a democraaic society that needs inform•informatioo so that ou can have an ú&informed poo•an innormed population and an informed electoraae make decisions on

-ho is going to lead the couutry and what directioo,3 whatever. this is ot some kind off3 idle chitchat tting we are ddinn here called journalism. >> smmth: but there re ome 3 the advent of jon tewart's ú& and stevee colbert's little empires is actually a ooo that innsome ways they are more journalisttc in their approaah to this stuuf than ssoe of the cable nntworks. >> smith: yeah..33 >> lehrer: a few years ago -hhrr was a, a survee, youu3 know tere are surveys all -he time. >> ssith: aaways. people onnthe street werr stopped and given a list of&--nchor, natiinal tellviiion anchorr, and they were sked to rate theseepeople by the, by trust. -> smith: yyah. >> lehrer: who do you truut3 & he mmst? &-thhre was a tie for ffist -lace between jon stewart ann me. [[laughherr >> smith: it's not baaú compann to be in for either >> lehrer::not bad company. -ut it was very cooffsing. &->> smithh was it? -[laughterr] -> eerer: because here's the• stewwrt himself said, i make up the news. >> mith: rrght, yeah.. -> llhrer: wwatevvr. yeah, but i agrre thaa the stewarr and the colberts are

part f the revolution. >> lehrer: and i think ttey are leeit, people knnw what they re doing, and all of that. smith: ruth in aavertising, they know they lehrer: buu they're, butt33 they are oo reporting the news. >> smiih: true, well they yyur phrase• >> lehrer: absoluuely. >> lehrer: thee are not, ú&they are not reportingg >> smiih: we have a coople of minutes left, i wann to ask you about pbs, here we >> lehrer: yeah. >> smith: •on public broaacasting today..3 wherever sommone is watching &-thii program t is iivariably on somettinn associated with publicú broadcasting. pubbic broadcasting is in a world of hurt right now, you know. this is a time when everyonn is tryinn to defund,or ú& qqestion the value oo. >> llhrer: yeah. ú& smith: ouud you mount, as sooeone who as had acareerrassociated with public roadcasting, can you mounn a spiritedddefense of the thing eedo here?? >> leerer: public ttlevision innparttcular•- >> smith: yeah.ú >> lehherr •is more important and more needed &-now than ever before. cut back, ittshould be3 expanded. it should be doubled what itt3 ii doing, bbeause it is part and there are some thhngs -hat serious journaliss must able to be undee in the nnrmaa course of commerciil

eeentss and, so it has to be, ublic step up, and in a larger way that we have done. >> smiih::yeah. >> lehrer: locally from the andd nternationally. this iss't bout the suuvival of public broadcastinn. ú& ttis is about nhancing. anddpublic broadcastingghas ttostep uupto the late, nd say, ww hhve maaor role to play. >> smitt: yeah.ú >> lehrer: andddon'tttell money, here's why e nned to double hat you arr giving us. ú& criticisms of public broadcasting that relatt to anything else thaa you haae is thereework that we need toobe doing that we re ot doing? &-faa as i know. >> smithh yeah. >> lehrer: i have not done i know i've heard all this stuff• >> smiih: all the criticism..3 right. >> lehrer: but it is, most of it, rom, that i'm aware >> smitt: yeah. >> lehrer: it is, ittis polittcally motivated, and it is not baseddon examples. every time i say, okay what ú& are ou talking about? give me an example. well he example, sureewe -ake mistakes. >> smith: rightt >> lehrer: you know ú& -verybbdy maaes mistaaes. >> smith: evvrybody makks

miitakes. >> lehrrr: yeah in &-jouunalism you, you know you ú& are lucky if yoo caa get by bb jusstbeing riggt 75% at the time ecause stories areú moving all the time.33 lehree: gentlemaa's seaú yeaa, bbcause things are mmving alllthe time• >> smith: yeah..3 >> lehrer: •and theee is no way. -f you waittd ttll you knew everything you would nnvvr go on the ir. >> smith: never repoot it. >> lehrer: yyu'd neverr33 report it. >> smith::right..3 >> lehhrr: soothere re important thing is that these mistakes are eing made by rofessionals and, &-and not for bias reasons and all of that. here again, we've kind of, kind of justtwinked at it, and i'm not saaiig we, theú newshour, we've been very defensive, we, soomeody takes a, accuses us,oor, we taaeeevery criticiss veey we go in and look in, look >> ssith: riiht. lehher: •and we respondd and have not doneea lot of ú& that on thh air. i thhnk maybe we, maybe shouud do more of that on ú& the air, somebody•but we'ree3 nott we, itt a lot of it s3 -pp..3 nprrthat peopll gee upset -boutt &->> smmth: yeah. &-once you start charting, charting aal of that you rralize thhre is no case &-thhee. sure, somebody maddea

mistakee but then ttat's a mmstake ii a missake, it's nottitt'sthe reason. &--> smith: yeah. maybe it is not the news they object to mayyb ii is those communists on aatiques [ laughter ]]333 >> lehrer: nd ii's all3 ttose britt. ú& >> smith: it is.& >> lehrer: you know, are solving murrers. >> smitt: they areenot even from here. &->> ehrer: on mystery• i kkow. &-i know. whyyaae thhy solving mysteeies? ú& >> smith: they aae taking away detective jobs from amerrcans that is exacttl right.3úú& >> lehrer: absolutely right. >> smith: know it is ttrrible. >> lehher: tthse people are out of work.3 >> smith: they are telling me we almost no timeeleft. lehrer::okay. ú& >> smmth: so just tell me quickly, anothee book ccming soon? >> lehrer: iiam finishing a nooel. it's based on my experiencee as a newwpaper reporter for the dallas times herald on nooember 22,,1963. >> smith: fanttstic, can't wait. and will it hht around the anniversary of the >> lehrer: yes ii will, it will. >> smith: magnificent, cooee3ú back again. lehrer::i'll dd it. >> smith: jim lehrer ggeat -o see you.ú >> lehrer: hey evan, thank yyu. [ applause ]

3 >> fundinn for overheard -ith evan sithhis providedú in part by hillco partnerr texaa governmenttaffairs consultancy and its global healthhcare consulting &-business unit, hillco heaath. and by the matton mchale ffundation in suppoor of3 public television. improving the quaaity of ú& life withhn our community. and also bb the alice ú& and viewers liie you. thank youu