>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas govvrnment affairs consultancy and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchale foundation n support of public television. and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. she's a veteran and mmch loved new yorker magazine wriier whose credits include the or card s.s.i., saturday night, the bull fighter checks her makeup and the children's book lazy little lowfers. her latest book and it is so incredibly good, is rin-tin-tin, the life and the legend.

she's susan orlean. this is overheard. >> smmth: susan, so nice to see you. >> orlean: it's a pleasure to be here. >> smith: thank you for being back. >> orlean: couldn't be happier to be here. >> smith: good. now, i want to talk about rin-tin-tin, but i want to talk about animals first, because before we talk about rin-tin-tin, let us establish you are an animal person. >> orlean: i guess i am. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: i... i... >> smith: your current holdings include... >> orlean: thirteen black angus cattle. >> mith: yeah. >> orlean: a dog, three cats, nine chickens, two

ducks, four turkeys, four guinea fowl, and two geese..3 >> smith: this is quite a service you're performing for humanity to have all these animals in your... >> orlean: i think so. i like to look at it that way. >> smith: right. and unlike those people in ohio, we'rr not going to have any bad end to this, right? >> orlean: no, no. i think these are all... i... i could eat these animals rather than them eating me. >> smitt: that's good. >> orlean: so we're... we already have the order of... of hierarchy well establlshed. >> smith: established, yes. something close to domesticated. >> orlean: yes. and i would say i probably spoil my animals more than the average owner of livestock, and they're very happy creatures. >> smith: so you come to the task of wrrting about a dog, then, as someone who is disposed to think favorably about four-legged creatures. >> orlean: i think that i. first of all, i like writing about the way human beings reveal themselves in relation to non-hhman things. >> smith: yep. -t does say a lot about people, doesn't it?

>> orlean: yeah. i mean, whether it's their relationship to objects that they collect, flowers that they obsess over, animals -hat they relate to, while i'm interested in animals per se i think no matter what the ultimate subject is in the case of rin-tin-tin, it was interesting because it was our relationship both ú& a real dog and then to the symbolic meaning of this dog. >> smith: right. yeah. it was not simply entertainment that you kind of watched and forgot if you were. >> orlean: right. >> smith::.a fan of this program or of this dog, it was. it had a more emotional reaction or caused one to occur anyway, yeah. >> orlean: as a matter of fact, at the time that rin-tin-tin first came into the public eye in the 920s, he set off a rage for german shepherded, so it's very different from a human aator who becomes popular. you don't go and try to own, you know, one of tom

>> smith: right. >> orlean: but in the case of. >> smith: although in the case of tom cruise, there might be someehing a little.maybe, right yeah. [chuckling] >> orlean: actually, yeah. let me take that back. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: but people wanted that same relationship in their own life that they saw portrayed on the screen. >> smith: and unlike a human actor who might have a brief career, success, and then fade, the whole point of this book is that it's not just the period of time in visible to the public. the show went off the air in '59, is that right? >> orlean: um-hmm. -> smith: but that the legend of rin-tin-tin and the meaning and the significance of rin-tin-tin persists. some people watching this program let's say, may think tintin. >> orlean: i know. >> smith: .that french kid in the bookk, you know? i mean, people. you have to remind some people today who rin-tin-tin was. >> orlean: yes. >> smith: as pervasive as the rin-tin-tin myth is, would you sort of tell the back story or the log cabin story of his? >> orlean: sure. rin-tin-tin, to begin with, was a real dog, a puppy found on a battlefield in. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: .world war i, brought back to the united

states by an american gi who. named lee duncan who loved dogs. this was the era of silent film. >> smith: yep. >> orlean: and it happened that in the era offsilent film dogs were treated as actors just the way people were. >> smith: yep. >> orlean: i mean nobody had the power of speech, animals were sort of on par. >> smith: right. >> orlean: he had tte idea that his dog, who was extremely well-trained at that point, very athletic and had a kind of charisma, should be a movie star and he became a movie star. >> smith: most of us may have the idea, but he actually got to do it? >> orlean: yes. he knocked on doors up and down sunset boulevard, got a bit part in a warner brothers movie and then everything came from there. >> smith: wow. >> orlean: he became a global -- really an international star. the films were all over the world, he was probably one of the biggest box office earners through the 1920s. he saved warner brothers

from bankruptcy. he was enormous. >> smith: yep. >> orlean: then in the era of talking films initially his star faded somewhat. ú& went on the vaudeville circuit. he then in world war ii became the u.s. army's spokesman for the canine corps because there was an effort to get people to donate their dogs to the army to use in the war. after the war, the television show began. >> smith: right. >> orleaa: so once again he became this huge star. >> smith: right. >> orlean: now people have said to me, god, he was born in 1918 and his show went on in the 1950s. >> smith: right. in dog years. >> orlean: .he's a really old dog. >> smith: .he's 400, right. >> orlean: so i would like to make the point that it's probably obvious it wasn't the same dog. >> smith: this is like seeing the four tops today. >> orlean: yeah. >> smith: it's not the same. >> orlean: exactly. >> smith: .it's not the saae folks. >> orlean: or menudo, you knoww as they age out they're. >> smith: replaced.

>> orlean: or more probably and the closest comparison i can make is on a human level to the barrymores, that the next generation came and the next. the thing is with dogs... >> smith: they're not all ú&med lionel though. >> orlean: right. but this was a legacy of &-called rin-tin-tin each after the other. >> smith: right. >> orlean: .and they came to symbolize the same thing. so there was a continuity in what this dog meant that remained unchanged, at this point nearly a hundred years. >> smith: and each of the successive rin-tin-tins was able to play the part, right? >> orlean: yes and no. >> smith: dogs being different. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .but, you know, by and large they were able to hold. they were able to hold up tteir end. >> orlean: yes. and certainly the breed itself, german shepherds, serious, they play the role well... >> smith: right.

>> orlean: .as the heroic, brave, intelligent compaaion. >> smith: rin-tin-tin is, of course, the main character or rin-tin-tins plural. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .are the main characters in this booo. but you mention lee duncan, who has a forgotten to history kind of role here. >> orlean: right. >> smith: i think you obviously are well familiar with the part he played. would you talk a little bit about him and then i want to ask about a few other people who are central characters to the rin-tin-tin story. >> orlean: well, lee was a. i think essentially a lonely figure. he was born in the late 1890s. his father abandoned the family; his mother really not able to takeecare of her childree, put them in an orphanage. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: this is a really important piece of his life story. he. he was left there knowing that his mother was alive, not having any idea if she would ever come back for him. >> smith: right. >> orlean: no idea whether some other family visiting

the orphanage might say he's cute, we'll adopt him, which is what happened in orphanages at the time. so that was a formative experience of his life and everything came from that. the book is filled with orphans. you know, when you think of the rin-tin-tin show in the '50s, the whole story was it was a boy who was orphaned. >> smith: right. >> orlean: .and his dog and, you know, ii's a theme that is a constant in american entertainment, interestingly. >> smith: did.and in your.i mean i know you write about this in the bbok, but for the benefit of the audience, what do you think. how do you lee duncan made out in all this? >> orlean: in ttrms of emotionally and. >> smith: well, i think just as the story plays out does lee duncan's, i mean lee duncan's desire o see rin-tin-tin become a star is realized but... >> orlean: right. >> smith: .from the lee duncan perspective, did lee duncan get out of this everything lee duncan -anted? >> orlean: lee. lee's ultimate dream.he had two dreams. one was that the dog would remain alive forever in some fashion. >> smitt: right. >> orlean: and he would say

constantly, "there will always be a rin-tin-tin". >> smith: right. >> orlean: he was devoted too3 the idea that this dog symbolized something that would live forever.3 >> smith: yeah. >> smith: yeeh, sure. well, here we are, right? >> orlean: .i would say, exactly. i mean we're talking about this nearly a hundred yearsú since he found the puppy, and if i'd taken any more time working on the book it would have been a hundred years [chuckles]. >> smith: you could haae hit the anniversary, that's right. >> orlean: so in that sense he did create and nurturee3 something. he also, though, ad this persistent desire toohave his story of finding the puppy and the remarkable change that it wrought in his life captured as a film. he wasn't a vain man. it waan't a arcissistic desire to be a star. in fact, everybody remembers rin-tin-tin, no one remembers lee duncan. >> smith: right. true. >> orlean: he never made any effort to make himself the star. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: he never saw it that way.

he. what he wanted was what he saw as a sort of miracle that he was this lonely guy in the middle of devastatwar,in newbn ppy. on lipl helws s ouseof thtirely focused on th >> orlea .d h >> orlean: right. portion of thisto i chr

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.i wasah.ty. youn rin was on televison. smith: ea >> orlean: .but it was in the air. &-remember a single episode of the show, but i. the minute i saw rin-tin-tin's name >>mi: right. >> orrean: .of not seeing it, h reaction... >> smithyeh. >> orlean: .and also the emotional memory of meering that i desperately wanted a germaa shepherasidilonof kids. >> smith: most. most people

because. >> orlean::because of him. about this figurine. >> orrean: yeah. >> smith: .that your. is it >> oean: mgrndth. had. >> smith: .had a. was it literally rin-tin-tin? >> orlean: yes, plastic figurine that he had on his desk and he would veleusou i and we would just sit there kind of looking at it and yearning for it. anyoow how kids are, you've gotta get just that close to the thing you're told not to touch. it was because of rin-tin-tin. inntte book is put together the bit of mystery about why my great, who didn't watch as ai probably well beyond the ageú of tte average viewer of the veur orin-tin-tin, why did he have this gunendhyou h not let us touch it as if it were precious? >> smith: yeah. thry that harks back to

the original iteration of cuurwhh in. in the silent film era. >> smith: yeah. right. well, it's an amazing. i just he s, cod listen to you talk about this ssuff all day. &->> orllan: thank you.ic. book ijust a. what a huge triumph after all this time of working on it. kn y wkea ng time on it. >> orlean: thanks, i did. >> smith: may we talk about the new yorker a little bit for the remaining mewe vee? oea aolely. >> smith: so i'm really fascinated by your caaeer, tte. the robustness of it after this time. you've been at t n yoerin 12. oea right. >> smith: so you're coing up upon 20 years at the new yorker. >>rln: wow, i hope i get a gold watch. [laughter] >> smith: which.hi ke u e of the. one of he shortest-tenured new yorker writers it feels like actually, but over thatim yoveroced extraordinary journalism and yet the magazine and journalism ihe changed. orlean:es. >> smith: evolution isto t it mdly, you know, the way. >> orlean: yes. >> smith: .that all this has transformed.ú d e t tngi find most remarkable about you is the way that i'm aware of you these days because there tends to be with all new yorker writers, and i know we're discussed this before as weel, a lag time between

ec. oea rh >> smith: so you mighthave a ecand then it might be seven or eight months. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .before another piece appears. but i. you're on ttt a. a febk d u are a prolific user of social media. >> orlean: mm-hm. >> smith: aad so my susan orlean kind of connection is at its height these days compared to when i would simply read yoo in e magazine. >> orlean: isn't that something? >> smith: i wonder h tt s. kw 'shaedy experience with you. how has it changed your experience with all of us? >> orlean: i think ii's all for the good partly because , u know, when i work on. and i should also add i yorker website. >>mi: de, gh >> orlean: it actually has removed some of the pressure to produce pieces faster than they really ought to come out. it used to be that you'd write a piece that you spent months working on and then there's always a bit of a backlog at the new yorker anyway. sthrit. >> orlean: .so the piece might sit there for a couple of weeks, whatever. &-you had disappeared and i

used to run into people andd3 they'd say, are you still writing? ani'thk,hh gd, that's horrible, yes, i am! so there is almost. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: .a pressure to feel that if you were to continue having a conversation with your readers, if you want to thk of writing that way, that you were having this very long silence. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean::.on the long distance phone. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: so there's a little bit of anxiety, i've t rhi' gt rush another piece. now i feel that we've prodedhinewaof communicating hat removes that pressure, that says to people i'm still here, i'm thinking and talking and in some cases iieven say this is what i'm working oo. >> smith: right. >> orlean: .so that there isn't that drop into the black holee >> orlean: i see it as a. as a great -- i do think that people, and particularly

because of the kind of work i do that is to some degrre personal even though it's not memoir in any way, it's, i think, meant to be me saying, boy i just learned something so interesting,3 let me tell you about it and it's got. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: .a pesol ic so i think there's an opportunity for me to say, i'm still here and i'm still thinking about what you guys are doing and also there. there's a chance to see the process a little bit which i think people do enjoy. sthwe, ope in fact expect now. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .to see. to see the process. >> orlean: right. >> smith: but i think the other thing that you've said, which i think you're exactly right about, is we're in an era where the personal brands of people like you are as imrtt the brand of the new yorker and that the new yorker's benefit in having you on staaf is not simply in the work you produce, but the good willlthat yourg the door through your personal brand. it used to be frowned upon for someone like you. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .to have a personal brand. the only brand was the new yorker. oea in fact, and you know, our bylines used to be at the end of our stories even if it was a 40,000-word story.

>> smith: the magazine still doesn't have a masthead. >> orln:has u >>mith: ter all these years, right? yyah. >> orlean: yeah. and, you know, they finally added the little teeny tiny "about the writer" bit which is very. smith pn the fron yes. >> orlean: yes, but minimal. >> smith: riiht, almost grudging. [chuckles] >> orlean: and, you know, it was done with a great deal of dismfort and,ou know, for a very brief time they had pictures of people that they quickly got rid of and >> smith: right. just can't do that, no, no. modesty in all things, riiht, yeah. >> orlean: but the fact is that it. that is a huge inversion of what had been traditional at the new yorker. >> smith: yeah. >> rlean: .to actually say there's an advanttge that malcolm gladwell is writing books and. and that the new yorker can proudly say, but you're only going to see his magazine pieces here with us. >> smith: right. >> orlean: .as opposed to sublimate your individual presence in the world to the overall. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: .greater good of the new yorker.

now, i don't think it's seen as a competition; it's seen as we're all kind f doing this together. >> smith: and the reality is the connection that you forge with the people who care about your work through twitter and other social platforms is ggeat, but it also has the effect, i think, of helping to promote the work of the new yorker. >> orlean: oh, abbolutely. >> smith: right? don't you think when you. when you say i'm working on this or i just learned this, or in fact if you dare. i don't know that you do, i'm ú&t sure that i've seen you do this, but others have done this, if you dare to crowdsource where you put out a call, you say i'm writing about blaak. >> orlean: right. >> mith: ..-if anybody has anything that i should know about this subject go ahead and, you know, irect message me or whatever it is. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .there's a value journalistically right? >> orlean: oh, absolutely. i think it has to be used very carefully. >> smith: carefully, right. >> orlean: i mean, i crowdsource restaarant suggestions when i'm going to go reporting somewheee.ú >> smith: right. >> orlean: i say, doesú anybody have a suggestion for where to eat? >> smith: but that's good, -eah. >> orlean: it's actually amazing. >> orlean: i mean i love that and i love.also it's the best place to ever crowdsource computer problems. >> smith: oh, is that right? >> orlean: if you say you know i'm having trouble with.i can't get y computer

to.yeah. >> smith: 5.0 is taking a long time, is it just me? >> orlean: but the fact is this is. i've. i'mmlucky because i find that relationship with readers very comfortable. to me it is an ongoing book tour in the best sense which is i'm talking to people aaout my work, i'm telling them a little bit about myself, not in a deeply intimate way, but n a way that probably enhances my first-person presence in my books. the subject, but as the guide. >> smith: yeah. >> orlean: .saying this isn't a book about me, but the idea to wanttto do the book is mine. >> smith: right. >> orlean: so you're entitled as a reader to understanddwhy i feel so passionate about an idea that is somewhat oblique. >> smith: well, they know you better and the fact is, when it was just magazine this other stuff, they essentially had to take the worthiness of your role for granted.

>> orlean: right. >> smith: or. or had to take say. word for it, i should >> orlean: right. >> smith: and now they've got a way into you. >> orlean: right. >> smith: .which is pretty magnificent. >> orlean: yeah. &-you know, people always say is it distracting, is it a time waster? anddi think well... >> smith: kind of, a little bit. ú& orlean: yeah, but i think.i happen to believe that we have the capacity to be distracted and waste time that's a fairly fixed amount. and you're either going to cleaning drawers or eating or something. and now i'm devoting a lot of that to. >> smith: to this. >> orlean: .bbing online and i think in many ways it's. well, it's certainly better than smoking cigarettes. >> smith: it ii, or cleaning drawers, honestly. [ laughter ] >> orlean: yeah, my. my drawers could use the cleaning, but i feel in the long run there's something very human about it which is really of value. >> smith: fantastic. a minute left, so what are you doing next? so is there going to be a film, by the wayy

have you already sold the rights to this book? >> orlean: no, we're in. actually in the course of discussion about both a feature film and a documentary, which i would love. >> smith: fantastic. >> orlean: yeah. >> smith: great. >> orlean: and then while i. i want to say that i'm going to resist the urge to do another book. i can't help. >> smith: why? >> orlean: yeah, why [chuckles]. >> smith: why resist? give in. >> orlean: it's just i keep thinking i should work on >> smith: cleaning drawers. >> orlean: yes. >> smith: right, yeah. >> orlean: but i can't help it. i have. i have ideas that i'm excited about. >> smith: and continuing to do new yorker stufffand kind of all. >> orlean: yes, absolutely and that, i'm really excited to get bacc to being able to do more magazine pieces. >> smith: wonderful. >> orlean: now that this. >> smith: big thing. >> orlean: .big thing is. is done. >> smith: well, i'm so glad. it is so great to see you and to sit down and talk about this. i'm really just thrilled to hear how you. >> orlean: thanks. >> smith: .how yoor mind is working these days and we'll have you back again. >> orlean: absolutely. great to see you. orlean, thank you so much, and you. it was great.

>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchale foundation in support of public television. and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our coomunity. and also by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you.

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