>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchale foundation in support of public television. and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm of evan smith. he's the self described head master of british rock. a much admired musician and producer whose credits over four plus decades include the icon in this case songs cruel to be kind, i love the sound of breaking glass and what's so funny about peace, love and understanding. thinks 13th studio album, the old magic, was recently

released. he's nick lowe, this is overheard. ♪ >> smith: nick lowe, welcome. >> lowe: it's great to be here. >> smith: so nice to see you and to meet you. congratulations on the record. >> lowe: thank you very much. >> smith: it's a -- it's a wonderful record, to me as i've listened to your stuff so much over the years in that it felt that after the first time i'd listened to it that it was an old record. it felt like i'd heard these songs a million times before not in a bad way, but in a really good way. t. they felt like standards or classics. now i wonder if as you listen to the record now as

you're making the record if you had a sense of something old about it or old quality? >> lowe: yes, i, i suppose so. it, it's actually so hard to make a record especially nowadays that you can't really, you know, plan for it too much. you know, people say were you trying to do this or were you trying to do that, you just hope that some good songs are going to come along. >> smith: we assume that it's a deliberate thing or that it's a conscious thing, but in fact as you say. >> lowe: yes, yeah, exactly. >> smith: a creative impulse hits you and there it is. >> lowe: yeah, exactly. exactly, but there's -- there's no doubt i'm -- i'm very drawn to that sort of classic songwriting style. >> smith: right. >> lowe: and it is -- it is nice when it comes along, you know, when you can sort of hit something >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: or seem like that which feels, which feels like it's been around for a while and i take that as a great compliment. >> smith: well, they are reasonably simple songs, but they also have such a lush quality to them. i, you say that it's hard to make records these days. now, i'm not in the music

business, but my assumption would be the opposite. that with technology as it is and with the diy world having descended upon music as it has upon book publishing, i would assume that you would have an easier time. >> lowe: yes, yes. >> smith: you wouldn't even you can make a pretty good record in your bedroom now. and the result is that the sort of pretty good is the new not very good in, in my view, you know, but the, the kind of records i try and, and, and make are very expensive to make as well, believe it or not, because they've got real musicians on them -- >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and you've got to have a decent studio and >> smith: right. >> lowe: and so on. but the, the songwriting process cause that's where it all starts, if you haven't got any decent songs then -- >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: then you're in trouble. >> smith: now this record has a couple of songs that other people wrote and you've performed their music. most of the time it's other people performing your music, which we'll talk about. one that i thought was particularly good on this record was poison rose,

the elvis costello song which he wrote and you perform so wonderfully. again, we'll talk about the records, that, of his that you produced and the fact that most people think peace, love and understanding is his song, but in fact it was your, your song first, but they're a bunch of original songs that i was taken with and the first one which is called stop light roses, i'd like you to tell the story of that. i know i heard you tell when you were on fresh air, you told terry gross. first of all, the origin of that phrase, stop light roses, that in fact it's not really a phrase but when you made -- >> lowe: i had to make it up. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: i -- well, i had an experience, like we all have i suppose, where i pulled up at a, a stop light and this swarthy gentleman approached my car. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: you know, and shoved this, you know, a you know, and i -- and i was struck by the thought that if you actually bought some flowers from one of these

guys -- and one of the reasons that you buy flowers is to apologize for something that you've done. do you know what i mean? but if you actually bought, a bunch of these flowers and gave them to somebody and said, look, i'm really sorry, it would sort of have the effect of making you know, making it much worse. it would be sort of an insult really; you know, that -- >> smith: you care about me so little that you. >> lowe: yes you care that the, the what, that some guy came up to you at the traffic light you know and says, want to buy some flowers, mate? oh yeah, i'll give those to her, you know. [ laughter ] she'll never know. i thought this is a great idea for a song. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and the song didn't take that long to write but the hardest part was to think of what to call it. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: because there's no -- there's no name for, for the, for these flowers. and i thought, well, in the uk we call them traffic lights, you know traffic light roses. doesn't exactly spring off the tongue. >> smith: right. >> lowe: you know, roll off the tongue. and also you can buy these -- you can buy these

flowers in the garage where you get gas from you know and we call them, in the uk, we call that a forecourt. it sounds sort of something shakespearean. >> smith: it does, actually. >> lowe: a forecourt, you know. >> smith: much fancier. >> lowe: but that doesn't sound good, the forecourt roses, you know, it doesn't sound right so. and then i thought, oh, in states they call it the stop light. >> smith: stop light. >> lowe: yeah. so the stop light, that sounded like it. >> smith: when you look back on your career -- this is again this is more than forty years, the, the pub band that you started out with, brinsley schwartz, which frankly sounds like a new york law firm. >> lowe: yes, it does. >> smith: more than a band, you began with them in the mid-60's. this is, or the late -- >> lowe: the late 60's. >> smith: late 60's, '67 or so. the music business has changed a million ways since then. >> lowe: yes. >> smith: and you, as i understand it, have produced a lot of folks in the early part of, of your career, but you're not doing producing any longer. >> lowe: no, no, i stopped in eighties. >> smith: kind of gave it up. is that at least in part a reaction to how things are different?

>> lowe: it -- yes, there was something to do with that. in the 1980's there was a sort of seismic change in how pop records were made. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: everything got digitized. and my shtick when i was producing records was as a, was as sort of, what do you call it, like a coach or you know, someone to sort of get people going. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and in the 80's suddenly it became a much more solitary business in making records. you did it on a screen, you know. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and there was no room for failure, you know, whereas quite a lot of the records i produced were frankly pretty awful, but i did the best i could. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: you know, at the time. and when i did get lucky, they were good. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and that's, and i got a reputation you know for the good ones i did. >> smith: right. >> lowe: but no one really heard the ones that weren't that great. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and -- and then in the '80's when this change came along because i was never, i was never a knob twiddler, you know, i never actually was a

hands-on bloke in the studio. i was good at telling people who -- who were, you know, engineers. i would -- i was good at telling them what i wanted to hear. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: but i wasn't actually one of them myself and, and, i didn't want to learn. i couldn't keep up with it, you know, so my shtick hit the road. >> smith: but when you think about it, the period of time that you did do that whether it was motivational coach or whatever role you thought you played. >> lowe: motivational coach. >> smith: is that what you were grasping for? >> lowe: yes. that's, well, that's better than what i was grasping for. >> smith: think about the records that exist because of the way that you produced them and our love of them is at least in part related back to that. those first five elvis costello records, you did some production for graham parker? >> lowe: yep. >> smith: right? you even did a pretender, at least one pretenders record that i'm aware. >> lowe: yes. >> smith: i mean, really wonderful stuff that you obviously brought something to it. it's kind of a shame to think that there would have been more stuff like that had you continued. >> lowe: well, it was just -- it was very much of its time. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: you know, there

were, there was, it was a very exciting time in the music business there because it was quite an anarchic -- you know, suddenly for a while the sort of industry lost its grip on the artists. suddenly the artists for a while -- i always think of this like the monkeys suddenly took over the zoo for -- you know. >> smith: right. i thought you meant the monkees actually. >> lowe: well, the monkees. no, no the monkeys. >> smith: davey jones. >> lowe: no, no. it -- for a while though it did seem like it was slightly out of control. you know, for -- it didn't last for very long. >> smith: right. >> lowe: you know, they got the grip back again. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: but for a while it was very exciting. and i -- my sort of style fitted right in there, but i wasn't -- i didn't take it very seriously. and to this, i can't really remember what i did with elvis and the attractions i used to turn them up and i clearly -- they liked having me around. >> smith: yeah, that's true.

>> lowe: because they asked me back >> smith: right. >> lowe: several times. >> smith: people try to get you out of retirement? >> lowe: yes, they do. i'm rather, i was rather touched you know when they, when they -- >> smith: but not susceptible? >> lowe: no, not really. my chops have gone now. you know, you do need to have a few chops. >> smith: well, let's talk about your songwriting chops. what i alluded to, the, a lot of songs that you wrote that were consequential, peace, love and understanding is one again that i think people associate with elvis costello. >> lowe: yes, they do. >> smith: but it was actually 1974 with brinsley schwartz that you first performed that song which you wrote, right? >> lowe: yes. i always think that song is the first original idea i had. up till then i, you know, i figured out pretty early on that the way to have a, any kind of lengthy career in the music business was to write songs. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and i started out like everybody. you start out writing, rewriting the catalogue of your heroes. >> smith: right. >> lowe: and when you finish doing them, you move on to somebody else and rewrite their songs. and it's very, very obvious that, what, who you're listening to. >> smith: yeah.

>> lowe: but everyone -- that's what everybody does. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and then one day i, i had this idea what's so funny about peace, love and understanding. a bit of a mouthful, you know, but i thought that's a pretty good idea. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and i was quite shocked, you know, that i had come up with this thing. i hadn't stolen it off somebody else. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and, and, you know, wrote the song and i remember thinking, well, don't be too clever with this, you know, keep it pretty, pretty straight and let the title do the work. you know, don't explain it too much, you know. and these are quite mature instincts you know for somebody who was a bit -- well, was young, and was a bit of an idiot. >> smith: so at this point.[laughter] >> lowe: it was quite impressive. >> smith: well, but i think that it is pretty self aware of you actually. at this point, there may not be a single musician who has not performed that song. i mean, it really -- >> lowe: [laughing]

>> smith: i feel like if you go, i just googled it this morning just for fun, you know. who has covered this song? everybody comes up and in every possible genre it comes up. >> lowe: yes. i've got recordings of it by tahitian fishermen. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: you know, by kids in the jungles of, you know, south america. >> smith: well in some ways it may be the, the most pervasive legacy that you leave and i know from the, the lore, that it made you a wealthy man actually. >> lowe: yes, it did. yes, it was put in a film called the bodyguard. >> smith: this was the whitney houston, kevin costner film, 1992, right? >> lowe: yes. which i have tried several times to watch. >> smith: preferably. no, no, no, no, no, no. life is extremely short. [laughter] and, but as -- the fellow's name is curtis? >> lowe: curtis stigers, yes. >> smith: curtis stigers. >> lowe: yes. >> smith: who recorded the song and the record sold 44 million copies worldwide?

is that correct? >> lowe: did it really? i didn't know it was as many as that. >> smith: 44 million worldwide, 17 million here. >> lowe: if it did, then i was underpaid. [ laughter ] >> smith: well, but you did, you did do as they say okay is on, as a result for that. >> lowe: i did very, very well for it. >> smith: set you up. >> lowe: i mean, you get pennies, literally pennies, when it sells those copies. >> smith: that's a lot of pennies. >> lowe: that amount is a lot of pennies. >> smith: that's many, many pennies. >> lowe: and needless to say, curtis and i are extremely good friends. [ laughter ] >> smith: he is on your christmas card list every year. >> lowe: yes. >> smith: when you hear, let's leave curtis out of it because he did such a solid for you on this, but when you hear chris cornell or bruce springstein or wilco who you are touring with at the moment and they have performed this song, when you hear folks like that sing, is that song no longer yours after it goes out into the world and they, they perform it, they record it. do you feel any proprietary connection to it or do you have, do you feel like you have a right to be critical of it, creatively? >> lowe: yes, i do feel sort

of detached from it. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: it is quite curious because i've heard; it has been covered so many times. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and i suppose the, you know, the old hippie in me, you know hopes for a time when it will be no longer necessary to sing that song and my publisher however -- however. >> smith: would likely to >> lowe: completely disagree with me. >> smith: disagree completely. >> lowe: and doesn't see it like that at all >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: but it, yes i do feel that it doesn't really, artistically. >> smith: it is no longer yours, it is theirs at this point. >> lowe: yes, yes, exactly. >> smith: let me ask you about i love the sound of breaking glass. i have read recently, to my surprise, you won't perform it, that you don't perform it. is that true? >> lowe: that's true. yes, it's because it's a classic case of going into the studio with a real half baked or barely baked idea, andrew mcintosh with some good musicians and kicking it

around and coming up with a record, you know, in the studio. i don't do that anymore. i work very hard on my stuff before i go into the studio. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: so i don't have to spend too much time in the studio. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: i do all the work beforehand. but on that occasion, we worked it up in the studio and they did a really great job, the musicians on it did a really great job, so i cut them in on the, on the publishing, but if i played it with just an acoustic guitar, i think the audience would give it a clap when they recognized it, you know, but after about a minute they'd start, be going, woooo [laughter] you know, looking around and waiting for the next tune. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: because there is really nothing to it. >> smith: not much to it, and of course that's the big hit. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: i mean, the irony is that is the song that there is so little to it in your mind that you won't perform it, but it's the one that was the biggest, maybe the biggest hit from a chart standpoint that you ever had in your career. >> lowe: cruel to be kind >> smith: was bigger? >> lowe: was a bigger hit. yeah. >> smith: i know cruel to be kind was a top 20 hit here in the united states. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: that's one i think by contrast you're perfectly

fine to perform right or happy to perform. >> lowe: oh yeah, delighted to play. >> smith: and you don't mind being associated with a song that came out in '79 right? so it's more than 30 years old but still. >> lowe: no, i'm very grateful for it, you know, to have a, to have a song that people are -- recognize it is, is fantastic. >> smith: so this, you're answering a good question. so if you perform and the crowd starts yelling song titles, i always imagine when elvis costello plays and people yell allison for him to play and he thinks oh, get out of here. >> lowe: he does roll his eyes a bit. >> smith: well, i would have to think he does you know and in, in your case i would think that cruel to be kind is your allison in that respect that people say, well, i know this one, so i'm going to shout. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: but that's 30 years ago. >> lowe: yes. and we do, we do have, have a different attitude to it. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: i really love doing it because it cheers people up >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and you see them go, really grooving you know when >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: when you do it and it's a pretty good little song too. >> smith: right. >> lowe: you know, it's as if they're not very good, there's a few, there's a few songs that are quite popular that i have written that i

can't do because they are, i'm too old to do them now. i'm, you know, i wrote them when i was callow, you know a callow youth you know and [laughter] they're a bit smarty-pants, you know and -- >> smith: well, how about, so let me ask you about another one. how about so it goes? so that was the first, that was your first song >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: after brinsley schwartz broke up and it was the first single ever released by step records. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: right? and that's a long time ago too. this is like, '76 >> lowe: '76 i think, yeah. >> smith: '76? okay. so is that one where you think, nah, i can't play that one? >> lowe: i can be pushed into it >> smith: right. >> lowe: but it's not, it's not my favorite. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: it's not my favorite. >> smith: how about, how about -- >> lowe: it's a bit like -- it's too much like steely dan or, you know. >> smith: not a big steely dan fan? >> lowe: yeah, i am, but i think -- i think i must have got it from something they'd done or, or there was another song, you

know -- again, my publisher goes, oh don't tell them where you nicked the stuff from, you know, shhh, you know! [laugher] >> smith: keep that to yourself. >> lowe: yeah, but it's -- you know, it's all has been done. it's all been done and i -- it was all done in my view sometime in the mid 70's. it was all done and ever since then i think it's all been regurgitated >> smith: right. >> lowe: and redone. >> smith: well, what about a song like the beast in me, which you know you, you recorded and then johnny cash recorded. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: you were married to carlene carter, the daughter of johnny cash. he was your father in law for 11 years. >> lowe: yeah. >> smith: you wrote this song, performed it as i said, and then he performed it and it was actually a big moment in his late career, late, late career. >> lowe: yes, yes. >> smith: what could, is that one that you like or? >> lowe: oh yeah. >> smith: you still embraced that one? >> lowe: oh absolutely. you know, i wrote it for him, in fact. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: i had the -- well, you don't want to hear the >> smith: well -- >> lowe: the story is a very well documented. >> smith: eager to hear it. go ahead. >> lowe: well, he, i -- i thought of the, i thought of the song on the night before he was going to do a big show in london and i stayed

up all night with this. i had the idea for the song and i stayed up all night writing this song with the aid of probably at least three bottles of wine, i would think. and you know, at about four in the morning, i was convinced that i was johnny cash. [laughter] >> smith: honestly it could be worse, you know, if you think about it. >> lowe: and i was singing this song, you know, in johnny's voice and, you know, the beast in me, you know, i thought it was so absolutely terrific this, this idea. it sounded positively, positively biblical, you know. and -- but i only really had the first verse. the rest of the song wasn't that great, but -- >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: you know, by four in the morning i did,n't really care. >> smith: no, of course not. >> lowe: and as long as i could keep saying the beast in me, you know, that was enough. anyway, the next day i woke up with this terrible hangover to hear carlene on the phone talking to john saying, oh yeah, nick's wrote this great song.

he's been singing it all night. you should come on down and hear. [ laughter ] and i, i suddenly panicked and thought, oh my god, he's not going to come and listen. i didn't feel like johnny cash in the morning. >> smith: i'm sure. no. that had passed. right. >> lowe: no, he had gone >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and i thought, oh no, no, no. and i looked at these scrawled bits of paper i had by the side of the bed, you know, and i could barely read them, you know, and i thought, oh no, he's coming over to hear this thing, this is going to be disaster. no. and it was too late, they were coming anyway. and they turned up. it wasn't just john and june, but the band, the nannies, the roadies, the blokes that make the sandwiches, and everyone turned up. they were on their way to wembley for their sound check. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and they crammed into our sitting room you know and john said oh, you got this song. i really want to hear it. and anyway, i had to -- i was sweating, shaking like this. it was -- it was awful. and i got the guitar. i could barely sort of hold this thing and sitting in

this room and where as the night before i had been johnni johnny cash. you know, i opened my mouth and instead of oh, the beast in me coming out, this little, oh the beast in me, [laughter] came out. it was, it was awful. and anyway i, you know i somehow got through it, and when i'd finished you could hear a pin drop in the room, you know, and just the odd sort of, [coughing sound] you know from, just a cough, you know. and then, and john, then john said, do it again. [ laughter ] he made me do it again, and the second time was even worse than the first time. anyway when i'd done, after i'd finished it, i was in bits and i never wanted to hear this song ever again but he said, look, he said, look, you're on to something here. you know, he saw -- thought it was absolutely no problem. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: he said, look you're on to something here, but it's not really finished yet, is it? it's not quite right. i was going no, no it's not right. no, no, no. i just wanted them to go, you know, and for the ground

to open up, but -- but every time i'd see him after that, he'd always ask me about this song. how's the beast in me coming on? and he did it with a twinkle in his eye. now, i didn't know if he was joking or not, but he knew what a hard time i had with this thing. and then finally, this went on for 12 years i would think and then finally i went to see him play at the albert hall in london one night and he asked me about it and that night something clicked and i went home and just finished it off. >> smith: wrote it out. >> lowe: yeah, and i sent it off to him. i recorded it in fact the version that i recorded, the sort of demo, is the version that's on, that i actually did of the song, and i sent it off to him. and my step-daughter, tiffany, who actually lives here in austin, called me and said, oh, she had just been down to jamaica where they used to have a house down there, and said, oh, i've just come back from jamaica and grandpa was playing your song to everybody. >> smith: oh wow.

>> lowe: and i hadn't heard anything from him so i thought, man, surely he doesn't think it's still not right because i thought it was good. but anyway next thing he, he's recorded it. >> smith: he recorded it. >> lowe: on the thing. it was a great moment. >> smith: what must have it been, what must have it been like to be johnny cash's son-in-law >> lowe: it was a gas. >> smith: well, i have to believe it was. >> lowe: it was. he was a great, great guy. >> smith: yeah, yeah. we all miss him, you know. it's, it's funny to think about that. we have a few minutes left. what happened when rockpile -- you know, there are people who, who said to me, oh, you are going to talk to nick lowe this week, ask him can they ever make that right again? will there ever be a reunion show? >> lowe: no. no, it, it's impossible for that to happen. well, because certain members aren't really, don't really do it anymore. >> smith: right. >> lowe: but it, that, it's funny, you know i was just talking to someone about this quite recently that the more i come to the united

states to, to tour and i'm, you know, eternally grateful that i come over here -- >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: and i have this great audience here. the more i'm aware that it's got a lot to do with this group, rockpile. every one remembers. >> smith: which wasn't in existence very long. >> lowe: no. >> smith: it was a long time ago, but it -- >> lowe: it was a long time. >> smith: really seconds of pleasure had an impact on a lot of people, my generation, other generations that is disproportionate with the length of time that you all were playing. >> lowe: yes. it, it really is unbelievable. the way -- the fondness with which people remember the band. and it was -- it was our sort of strength and our undoing, the fact that we got together for fun. >> smith: yeah. >> lowe: we hardly rehearsed at all. but it was -- people could tell we were having a great time. >> smith: it was a goof. >> lowe: yeah, it was a goof. but then when suddenly when we started, you know, getting somewhere with it

and as i say we opened for all these different acts, and columbia said to us, you know, what guys you know you could stand a chance of getting somewhere with this if you just do a little bit of work. and as soon as that was mentioned, they all went [hissing sound] >> smith: scatter like roaches. that's it right? >> lowe: yeah, and, in a way i'm, sort of glad that we won't have some creaky old reunion you know, it's all, hello everybody. [ laughter ] it's much better for people to just remember the, the way things -- >> smith: the way it was. >> lowe: the way it was, yeah. >> smith: right, great. well, we're out of time. what a treat to get and sit and talk to you and hear stories and, you know, wonderful to see you still performing. >> lowe: thank you for having me. >> smith: good luck and congratulations and we look forward to having you back >> lowe: and thank you very much. >> smith: nick lowe, thank you so much. >> lowe: thank you. [ applause ]

>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchale foundation in support of public television. and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you.

>> gerald stern was born in pittsburgh, 1925. his parents immigrated from poland and ukraine. gerald stern, who said, "poetry should be passionate and outrageous and political and most of all revolutionary." >> in all these rotten shops, in all this broken furniture

and wrinkled ties and baseball trophies and coffee pots i have never seen a post-war philco with the automatic eye nor heard ravel's "bolero" the way i did in 1945 in that tiny living room on beechwood boulevard, nor danced as i did then, my knives all flashing, my hair all streaming, my mother red with laughter, my father cupping his left hand under his armpit, doing the dance of old ukraine, the sound of his skin half drum, half fart, the world at last a meadow, the three of us whirling and singing, the three of us screaming and falling, as if we were dying, as if we could never stop--in 1945--

in pittsburgh, beautiful filthy pittsburgh, home of the evil mellons, 5,000 miles away from the other dancing--in poland and germany-- oh god of mercy, oh wild god. ( applause )