>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas governmmnt affairs health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the mattson mchale public television. and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and also by the aaice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. >> smith: i'm evan smith. he's the world's most celebrated practitioner of mind, body medicine. a champion of physical, mental, emotional,,spirittal and social wellness. he is the author of more útan 60 books, one for each year he's been on this earth, including 19 "new york times" best sellers. his latest published last fall is wwr of the world

views, sciince versus spiritualty. he's deepak chopra. this is overheard. >> smmth: dr. chopra, wellome. >> chopra: thank you. >> smith: very nice to have you here, sir. >> chopra: it's nice to e3 here withhyou, evan. >> smith: may we begin with why do we have to choose? why can't we have both? >> chopra: well, my cooauthor preferred it that way. i would haveecalled it science and spirituality. the new version is going to have that subtitle. >> smith: it will actually eliminate the controversy. >> chopra: it will evolve to

-úa ew level, yes. smith: the conflict, good, yeah. you areeputting this book out or have put this book wwen the question of whatime the appropriate role of science in the world.in3 politics and in policy and in all of our lives.is verr much an issue. do we follow science or do we follow something eese, whether it's global warming or evolution or what have you? >> chopra: well, we follow science in order to play, plan to get here. i had to follow science, right? we follow sccence when we send messages on twitter or facebook. we follow science in order to live comfortably. so how can we say thaa science should not be followed? science is there. it's a very good method of exploring a certain aspect of the truth, what we observe out there. but science does not adddess questions like, who's the observer? where is the observer? who am i? what do i want? how do i imprrve the quality of my relationships?

do i have a soul? what does death mean? how do i deal with it? is there a god? do we have a soul? what happens to us after we die? these areequestions science, at the moment, does not address. and yet, science is based on the fact that we have a consccousness. all -- and by consciousness i mean, spirit, you know.i use the words synonymously. so science is based on observation, theories, experiments. well, theories are conceived in consciousness, experiments are designed in consciousness, observations are made in consciousness, science is a product of our consciousness. and, therefore, it behooves us to address that part of ourselves, too. >> smith: well, speak on behalf of spirituality, then, becaase there are people who may have hostility to science at the moment who believe that science is somehow in conflict with spiriiuality, notwithstanding. chopra: yes, i don'' think so.

i thinn science is not at all against a legitimate evolving spirituality. our questions chaage as we evolve as the human species, and so today we know, for example, that the universe began 13.8 billion years ago.& we can't contest that. we know that. >> smith::weel, some people contest it.3 >> chopra: but they're not aware of the facts, then. [ laughter ] the way we know that science, you know, science does that is thattyou have scientific theories, you have mathematics, you feed these with the laws of nature into super computers, you can thee rewind the computer to see what happened in the pass based on these laws. then you can observe the microwave background of& radiation that comes from within ten to tte power of a few seconds, minus seconds, you can observe it.

so you say, aad it's coming so the big bbng happened, and it happened everywhere. the mystery is what was there before the big bang? >> smith: right. happen? >> smith: right. >> chopra: wwo created the universe? existence?d it come into why are we here? was the potential for he human of a ystem that could figure all this out, was it there at the moment of the big bang? if it's a series of accidents that makes these amazing biological organisms. >> smith: you're not pointing at me, obvvously. [ laughter ] >> chopra: you know, a human body has the. >> smith: point at that, [ laughter ] i'm with you on that, point at that. >> chopra: a human body has 100 trillion cells, which is more than all the stars in the milky way galaxy. every cell does over 100,000 activities every second. things simultaneously.think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remooe toxins, make a baby, all at once.

the point where we have a nervous syssem that can figure out alllof evolution, that can figgre out how the universe mmre or less began, that can figure out mathematical constants that keep the universeegoing.& >> smith: yeah. >> chopra: this, to me, does not seem like an acciddnt. >> smith: yeahh well, let me come at this a let me ask you this. what is the appropriatt rooe of spirituality or the appropriate role of religionn3 in the public sphere, or in all offour private lives? calibrate what the you appropriate place for that is? >> chopra: an authentic spirituality would increase our capacity to love and havv compassion, to take care of people who are not as fortunate as us, to look for social justiie, to take ecosystem, to seeethat there is economic justice as well. >> smith: yep.

>> chopra: so i think those areeall xpressions of a genuine spirituality. i don't think spirituality righteous morality, which is, in the words oo h.g. wells, just jealousy with a halo. so i don't think spirituality is about following the ten commandments, because follow rules of moraln righteousness unless you have an authentic experience of your deeper self hich is úonnected to all that >> smith: is spirituulity the same thing as religion? am i conflating terms that you don't think are alike? >> chopra: i think all reliiion was based on a spiritual experience. and all religion has three things in commmn. onn was that there was an experience of transcendence, which means you went beeond your small ego identity and you -útooched something that was sacred and outside of space time. the second was out offthat, the emergence of platonic

vaaues, like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, evolution of consciousness, equanimity.ssion, joy, and the third experience, believe it or not, was the understanding that physical death is not necessarily the end of survivvl, thaa physical death may happen to the body and an ego identity, but there's a coree3 úonsciousness that exists outside f space time that is nottsubject to physical3 death. this is universal, whether you look at any religion, these three things you will find. and therefore, they were ased on experience. were úhat happened afterwards, of course, is that nstitutions took over, and like, you humans thh truth, ann thene the devil said, let's organize it, we'll call it religioo. ú laughter ] >> smith: well, i hear you, i hear you talk about how a fundamental tenet of a spiritual life is a justice. you mentioned social justice. >> chopra: yes. in the debate over the issue appropriate role of religion -úin the public sphere at this

very mmment. >> chopra: yes. >> smith: are things that organized religion are putting out into the world3 odds wwth the concept of social justice. >> chopra: yes, i think organizzd religion is fear-based, if i may say so, and is all about control and manipulation through fear, and tends to be therefore more fundamental in its lack of evolution, it's very, ii i might say, baaed on primitive ideas of how we came toobe. >> smith: that's a little controversial point of view you've got there. i mean, the tea partiers might disagree itt me, but. [ laughter ] >> ssith: might, they might. >> chopra: but otherwise, i thiik, i think to deny the fact of evolution, to deny the fact of global warming is not to be looking at the facts and not to be aware.

>> smith: well, let me movv you on to a little bit more familiar ground, and that is this concept of mind body medicine, which as i've -úsaid, i think, and you have said, too, is sort of at the core of your belief system. can you articulate it as you would define it, so people understand exactly what youu3 mean? >> chopra: yeah, well, mm training was in neuro-endocrinology, which is the study of brain chemicals, in the 1970s, and neuropeptides, which are the molecules of emotion. what we iscovered in the '70's, when i say we, the people who were looking at this, scientists, amongst them, me.that these were molecules of emotion, that there were receptors to these molecules in thh body, including in the immune system. so these molecules are modulators of the immune system, they fine tune the immunn ystem. when you are in anninternal state of joy or equanimity or contentment or peace, the -- this oppimizes what is called self-regulation or homeostasis in the body..3

-úvery preliminary, but now we know that you cannot have a mental event without a brain representation. i can ask you to reflect, for example, on certain questions, and i can then see that your cortex gets actiiated, or you can have emotional conversation, which is -- which fosters love, and then you see the different parts of the brain, limbic system get acttvated, or when you're brain gets activated, which is in charge of the four f's, feeling, fighting, fleeing, and reproduction.so [ laughter ] >> smith: i did, i did wonder where you were going with that. >> chopra: so. [ laughter ] >> smith: ttank you for getting us.you will remain on the air, actually, as a result of the way you.that's good. >> chopra: so there is no mental event that does not have a brain representation. more interesting.

úy changing your habits of thinking, behavior, and in your brain.an actually it's called neuro-plasticity. ann in order to do hat, you have to activate certaii genes, bbcause you have to lay doww proteins. so your mind can influence not only the structure of your brain and your immune system, but actualll turn certain genee on and off. so genes are not fixed in the human body is very plastic. that's what we are recognizing. and consciousness is something so fundamental,& that from the level of consciousness, we can affect things in our body. >> smith: so the short hand of this might be if i am somehow able to rid my brain of negative thoughhs, negative feelings, negative emotions, i am more likely to reset my physical health in a good direction. >> chopra: yes, buttnot by thinking positive thoughts, because that's a very [ laughter ] have yoo.if you've been around somebody who's exasperatingly positive, you don't want to be near them after awhile. >> smith: that's true. [ laughter ]

>> chopra: so more than posiiive thinking, it's how to be able to observe your mind, which we call mindfulness, in eastern wisdom traditions, a quieter mind, an observant mind, a reflective mind, that asks and lives meaningful questions, like, who am ii3 what do i want? what's the meaning of a good relationship? the really important thingss3 in llfe. whaa is the best way to haaness myycreativity or my imagination? what are my unique skills and talents? how do i use ttem?3 more than anything else, will, in fact, influence. live the questions, and life will mmve you intt the answers. >> smith: so as a practical úet of guidelines for thee3 average person, people in this audience who are& watching this program, how to have a, a fuller and richer and happier life.you would say? >> chopra: yes, i'd say there are four levels of existence: being, feeling, thinking, nd doing.

okay. being is the ability to sit quietly and doo3 nothing, okay, to have no agenda. it's meditaaion, basically. feeling is harnessing your ability to love, have compassion, and all the things we feel strongly aaout.social justice, economic justice.we live in a world where 50% of the world lives on less than $2.00 a day. that, you know, there's going to be violence. as longgas that's there, there's going tt be be terrorism, there's going to go beyond ur ethnocentricism, racism, bigotry, prejudice, hatred, this is to cultivate good feelings. >> smith: right. >> choora: and then the third is, reflection, meetal reflection on the real purpose of exiitence, which is part offthe contemplatiie tradition in every religion. and the four, is acts of service, so being, feeling, thinking, and doing, in that order.

>> smith: and the doing is not just for yourself, but it's doing also for others. >> chopra: acts of service. >> smith: and do you have to do all four? >> chopra: yes. >> smith: there's no menu? you can't ay, i'll do one of these and one of those? [ laughter ] >> chopra: no, no way. >> smith: no. >> chopra: ooherwwse you can go in a cave and rettre, if you just want to meditate. the.there's no, you know, in meaningless. >> smith: yeah. so it's well. >> chopra: so they ssy love without action is meaningless, and action without love is irrelevant. >> smith: now, thissconcept, the broad connept that you're describing and the ssecifics, are kind of mainstream? >> chopra: yys, absolutely. >> smith: right? but they weren't.but they were not always mainstream. >> ccopra: because we also have evolved, you know. right now because of social media and all the things that we have at our dissosal. >> smith: yeah. >> chopra: we are actually laying the neural networks of a planetary brain right now, unbeknownst to us. >> smith: riggt. >> chopra: and that's why you have the arab spring and you have occupy walllstreet, and you have -- people are

-úexpanding their identity úrom ethnic and religious and national to a global i think we are seeing it, you know.3 i have a grandson who is now four years of age. he speaks mandarin chinese, spaaish, english nd hindi. >> smith: an underachiever. >> choprr: he's a ggobe.huu? >> smith: an underachiever. >> chopra: well, he's surrounded by people who speak ttese languages. so, you know, that's what's happening. we are all becoming citizens of the cosmos, which is what úrue spirituality would be. >> smith: but as you understtnd, when something aatomatically is open to criticism, and so where over the years this has gone from being a little bit outside in the center of the mainstream, peoppe dismiss it aa new age claptrap. grounded in any reality, and it sounds great, but it's not practical for the average persoo. >> chhpra: it is practical, úecause you know, we're also discovering that the very reductionist model of science, which is very if you have pneumonia you need an antibiotic, and if

you break your leg, you know, i think orthopedic surgerr would help better than meditation, but when we're looking at the big issues of our time.you know,,3 obesity, hypertension, carrio.coronary arrery disease, cardiovascular disease in general, inflammation, which is the background in many cancers, then the reductionist approach is no longer tenable. >> smith: or, or no longer adequate all by tself. >> chopra: by itself, yes. >> smith: by itself. you need this aaso. >> chopra: yes. in fact, you know, the last three years i've been working with a science writer to look at all the epidemics of our time, you know,,cancer, obesity, diabetes, autoimmune illnesses, and you will not find a single disease that doesn't have a lifestyle componenn. >> smith: to it, that's right, yeah. >> chopra: nnt a single one. >> smith: right. let me ask you, speaking about lifestyle components, this is an abrupp shift, but i think it's an interesting line of questioning for you.

you have been associated with a number of celebrities with whom you've hhd relationships, and you've lifestyle choices hat somme3 celebrities have made. you were frrends with michael jackson for a long time. you are, according to news reports right now, in ssme communication with lady gaga about doing some work with her. is that true? >> hopra: not, nothing that addiction or problems. >> smith: but just, but just advising her on how she lives her life. >> chopra: yeah, i'm also working with her on the bullying issue. we havv a talk coming up with her and me and oprah on taking a stand against bullying in schools and that you have with folks like this, what insight have those relationships given you into -úbbcause these are of course outsized ccses and outsized personalities. it's a little bit difficult. >> ccopra: right. is that there is wisdom in

inseeurity and wisdom in uncertainty that is veey important to learn from. you know, many celebrities are driven by their success and -- or feel insecure because3 they're only as good as their lastthit, their last -úsong, then alsoosociety puts them on a pedestal, creates an image of them, and they're aaraid of the image being defiled. so there's a lot of insecurity into being a performer at a high leeell3 but i think that can actually be used toogood there's a gift that comes with hat insecurity. if you embbace it and you live with uncertainty, ii fact, that's the seed of all creativity. that ww can all. >> chopra: we can all learn. -ú>> smith: we, we, we mortals can take from it. >> chopra: we can all learn to understand that if you embrace your uncertainty and

insecurities, you will find the seed of creativity there and that will be, it'll be an impetus for you to achieve evee greater things. >> smithh and that people in positions of, of, of fame or sort of public celebrity often have these issues. >> chopra: they have these issues. acutely.: they feel them >> chhpra: they're more exaggerated in them beccuse more. >> smith: what about the presideet??3 you aae a supporter of the presidents.in fact, you ann russell simmons aae going to in.peehaps by the time this show airs, will have had a pretty big fundraiser for the ppesident. you've been a supporter of his and you've been an observer of hhs, more importantly. context of the burdens of that celebrity. >> chopra: i like our presiient, first of all, because he thinks globally. i like him because he believes in all the issues thattare important to a civilized society,,including social justice. a lot bb special interest groups.

you know, washington is a3 place where you havee26 lobbyists for every congressman, and these are -- lobbyists are supported by well-known special interests, whetter it's the3 military industrial complex orrthe medical industrial complex, or many other formm of lobbyism. >> smith: the medical industrial complex is a before. >> chopra: oh, sure. >> smith: you get your.you'll get kicked ut of your -- yoor ittle >> chopra: no, but i can -útell you that 80% off33 pharmaceutiials are of optional or marginal benefit, which means if yyu didn't use them it wouldn't -úmake a bit of a difference that particular iilnnss,f except save you side effects. have you ever seen an ad for a pharmaceutical on, on television? this wwll relieve your heartburn, but can ggve you be impotent, can cause a heart attack, and may even cause death. i mean, this is every commercial that you see. >> smith: yeah. >> chopra: because, once

again, you know, there are& misaligned interests. the interests of the insurance company are not the interests of the physician. the interests of the physician aae not necessarily the interests of a healthy patient. >> smith: right. >> chopra: okay, so you have misaligned interests, and the same thing holds truu in the military industrial complex. now, i firmly believe that president obama in a second term, becauseehe won't have to worry about the election again, will, will take some rrally good measures to bring about the justice that we all seek. and, you know, it doesn't mean that he, he's a radical in any way whatsoever, but i think he's liberal as we should ll be, progressive. >> smith: the well, let me -- >> chopra: they like that. i can say this on pbs? >> smith: yes, exactly. [ llughter ] pbs, totally downnthe middle. we have no ident.we have, we have. >> chopra: i couldn't say

thhs onnfox, i presume, right? >> smith: oh, i understand, yeah. [ laughter ] we have just a couple úinutes left. i want to pivot from the president to the arger question of the spiritual i'm really eaaer to ear you talk about that, because we hear a lot about how as a naaion we're ii crisis on a whole bunch of levels, and spiritually, maybe most of all. >> chopra: if by spiritual, we mean, well-being, which i think is a good way to judge spiritual, we rank 12 in the world riggt now. number one is denmark, number two is sweden, number three is canada, and there are countries that are developing countries that are better off than us. what we call thriving range, you know, anything over 70% the way we score in gallup where i'm a senior ssientist. we measure these things. so we're not doing that great. >> smith: and so what doo e do about it? >> chopra: we start from bbsics. and basics are we take care of each othhr more than anything else. >> smith: that's a pretty simple idea.

>> chopra: we, we, yeah, we start wwth relationship. that's the best way to, to be happy, is to make somebody else happy. >> smith: riggt. and it probably goes back, at least in part, to that service -- the fourth of four that you mentioned, the doing, right? chopra: yes, yes, community well-being. >> mith: right. >> chopra: very imporrant. even for your physical well-being. >> smith: are you focused as much, as some people aree on the cause of this, or are úou just pointed forward at lookinggat the solution? >> chopra: no, we look at the cause, and the cause is always lack of awareness, lack of our true identityy that we exist in relationshii, and no one exists by themselves, you know. and we now have really good studies at gallup, again, that if you have a appy friend, your happiness goes up by 15%, but if your happy friend has a happy friend that you don't know, it goes up another 10%, and the happy friend's happy friend don't kkow, it keeps going up. >> chopra: ss the best way to -- to get rid of your enemy is to enlarge the

capacity for happiness. >> smith: to turn your enemy into the solution to your problem. >> chopra: yeah, absolutely. and the more yoo engage people.you know, on twitter i send a message ut to almost a million people every day, make one person happy by just listtning to them, by telling them that yoo care or noticing something good about them, and let them do it, and we could easily have a pandemic of happiness aaross tte world. happiness. >> chopra: yes. >> smith: that's my kind of pandemii. that's a good.that's a [ applause ]deal. all right. well, uch more we could discuss. we're out of time. it's just an honor to get to few minutes, and you know, you put me in a better mind just, off the bat, so it's. >> chopra: thank you, thank yyu. >> smith: a great thing. and everybody else, too. dr. deepakkchopra, thaak you& vvry much. [ applause ] 3 ♪ 3

with eean smith is provided& -úin part byyhillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its ggobal business unit, hillcoo3 health. and by the mattson mchale foundatioo in support f improving thh quality ofon, life within our community. and aass by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers ike you. thank youu