>> time for a quick reminder of the stories from around the world. radley manning found guilty of espionage. he faces sentencing for feeding a stream of government files to wikileaks. promising to push toward a final agreement as peace talks get back underway in washington. the eu's policy chief meets the ousted president. in mali, the prime minister holds a comfortable lead. contesting the figures. the

zimbabwe gearing up to vote on wednesday. facing off against the vice president. leaders promised to step down should he lose. there is accusations the polls have been doctored. an investigation into the train disaster has been made for but. the conductor was on the phone to a railway official. the train was traveling at almost twice the permitted speed. 79 people died when it jumped the tracks. welcome back. let's remind you of our

guests. thank you for being with us. on the other side of our studio, a journalist with the arabic channel. thank you for being with us. amid, -- next to mohammed. his views and opinions very much enlivening our debate. from london from the suit of arab studies. -- institute of arab studies. and i will start in the first half with you. and put a provocative question to you about muhamed morsi. was it right that he was taken out of power because basically he was not up to the job of running the country.

you were not capable of running your country. >> we were what? >> some might say that morsi was for set of our. ->> was it that he did not run egypt well? itwas inevitable that he be pushed of power. >> ok. i got you now. >> go-ahead. >> we believe in democracy. we believe that we have to rely on votes, not on did audis. what

actually happened, there was a military coup that demolished the era of democracy after a revolution. [inaudible] this military coup took us back to my baric -- mubarak's era. we are fighting for our rights to express ourselves, to live with dignity, to make our own democracy as any other people and nation worldwide. that is why when someone looks at our stand now in the position now, they make the wrong

message. we defend the people's right. no one has to blame us if we continue in the squares in the streets. not for months but for years. >> thank you very much. >> and why to say that the gentleman says they respect the people as well. what about the millions in the streets? is there no respect or is it because they are not one of yours that you do not respect them. you only respect your own.

>> if we do a big list we will never get any answers at all. >> you have behind you pictures of my city. what happened with people getting killed inside and kidnapped in the mosque. how do you justify this? >> let him answer the question. >> go-ahead. what about the people in the street? >> during that one year, personally, many of our colleagues in freedom and justice -- [indiscernible] criticizing the performance of the government. we never claimed that morsi's

regime and the government was 100%. as we defend our right to express our views, we also defend the others to do the same without having any problem, without being beaten, without being killed or injured by police or by military. we have to know that what has been happening with us in one month is more than what happened in turkey -- years of the regime. we never have such number of killed and injured people. in one month or in one year or 10 years or 30 years of the regime of mubarak. what we are talking about now [indiscernible] some sort of dictatorship and repression. with military tanks, once the

military tanks approach, everything went by. >> it very much depends, how do you define -- the definition of "we," is is the muslim -- is it the muslim brotherhood or is it egyptians? 800 of his died in 18 days before my baric was toppled. do we forget that? -- before mubarak was toppled. >> part of it was happy to repress the other part of it and laugh about it. click some said egypt is not know what it wants. that is the problem. >> president morsi was a

divisive character. he was voted in with 15 million voters and 12 million voted against him. it will feel all the areas about it. the square if you fill it with people. it would take around 400,000. >> and the same thing. >> here's the problem. the problem is the mentality of the 90 and percent. -- 99%. this mentality has to be abandoned if you want to move towards a democracy. elections divide. a lend a in chile was voted in with 56%. -- allende in chile was voted in with 56%.

>> would you agree that egypt has rejected political islam? >> it is a problem. i do not want to put it this way. this is what someone is asking. >> it i say that again? >> is egypt rejecting political islam? >> you cannot say that egypt rejected political islam when political islam or one of its parties was consistently winning every single election. what would have been is in the next -- if the next elections were to come in and freedom and justice would have come in, they would have lost the first time they came in. they went in with elections and

they won 40%. 40% -- there was a lot of sympathy and you can, now they promised and they did not deliver. you pay a price for doing that. the next elections they would have lost but they would have their core supporters. >> first of all, squares or not the judge. what is decisive is the voting of the people. >> [indiscernible] >> we are happy now with the anti-military coup. this is not decisive. second --

>> if you're not happy that is up to you. i am not happy. >> i said that the squares are not the judge. election show that the majority of votes went to political islam. what was wrong -- >> has morsi been overthrown because he was incompetent or people did not like what he said or they wanted power? i am confused. tommy what you think happened. was he overthrown because he was incompetent or the army wanted power or is it what the people

wanted? let's put that to someone in the studio. have a think about that one. >> if you're asking me. >> i am asking you. first of all since the first day of his presidency, he was faced with the campaign to make him fail. we have 24 million. >> i need to bring in the people from the studio. he is not buying the fact that morsi was incompetent. some say he was. was it an army

power grab >? >> they do not have a tradition of the military overthrowing like in egypt. it did -- the country is doing better. they are growing four percent -- 4% this year. they're not really doing their jobs and this is what people are revolting. but i do not understand is if somebody is politically voted into office, you cannot overthrow. because -- not because he is incompetent. if you organize electio sooner, i am sure that morsi would have agreed at some point that he needed to organize. >> what has been said in the

median -- the meantime, it does not surprise me because he is president-elect. he would with a lot of difficulty accept something like that. that should have forced him to organize and have been more legitimate. i have to repeat that. they went out on the streets and they have been everywhere. maybe the muslim other good -- the numbers are not comparable. i have to say that the numbers are not those who let us decide. i have some problems with people talking to us about democracy.

we are still building our democracy. the voting of the people, we have to respect that. maybe another president will be toppled. >> this is not to empower a group of generals. lex was that the problem? >> i do not think elections came too soon. i think the attitude of politician, especially the losing politicians had to be changed. >> they had supporters on the

ground and of course they had -- people were angry because of the president's and it was not that great. >> go ahead. i understand what he is saying. a lot of people say in egypt they are losers and they do not respect the rules of democracy because the last elections. it is not them who went on the streets and asked for morsi to leave. there were a lot of people who did that. we have to make the difference between auditions and leaders and the people. >> i think -- >> the last comment. >> they have been having the largest city in -- sit-in.

>> this was nothing, this was a very small one. it was not tens of hundreds of thousands. >> weird defining -- we are defining -- are we defining democracy by a sit-in? excuse me. excuse me for interacting. --interacting. you are measuring the power of the protest from the muslim other good side -- on the other side -- have you had a chance to look at what this sit-in looks like? >> is not even that.

-- it is not even that. >> i know it is important but for the egyptian people who are in revolution, they are free not to respect it these days. that is what the situation is. >> the problem is what you're saying is you have only [indiscernible] generally. >> we are going to our correspondent. we're getting reaction from people watching. >> the angle that i prefer to look at this evening is how the diplomats are trying to deal with what is a particularly top located situation. -- complicated situation. two hours of meeting but no photos.

the fact it was not photographed is in itself an indication of how sensitive that was. she referred to him as mr. president. obviously pointing to the fact that she is meeting someone who is officially ousted. how do you approach that on a diplomatic level. people who support the muslim brotherhood -- >> our guests who are joining us by satellite. >> they are happy to play a role. for once they are able maybe to have a word to say. >> what is compensated, this is a headline today and the huffington post in france.

france has called for muhamed morsi to be released. the eu has to take that into account as well. you see photos of catherine ashton meeting with elbaradei. she scuppered out of that meeting quickly saying her flight would leave. >> they are slaves to the schedule. >> morsi is a blast to the past. she said she had to catch her plane. >> rushing off is probably the best metaphor for all of that. it is now much easier in the u.s. position. it is a very difficult balancing act for them. just a couple of things that

reflect that. the white house has not conducted a strategic review. this -- this is like no case i am familiar with. thank you. see you. distaning in our guests froa joining us from a studio in london. is morsi now a figure of the past, as he finished, is he not part of the future? >> i think he is about the past

and the present and the future. without acknowledging that morsi >> you need to change her mind if they become part of the process, don't you? >> of course. we did mistakes and we can change our mind when we see something. what happened now, we have in the table. we have seen nothing. we may think of that. is demolishing everything and it seems like that will not happen. >> any deal in this compromise

will reflect the balance of power. the brothers can play the mobilization game and play the elections game but the two other game, the political violence game and the institution game is against them. the two is the balance of it. what catherine ashton can do -- there are initiatives out there. president morsi should come out and say he gives his powers to the prime minister and the prime minister would call on parliamentary elections. >> let's get back to the studio.

thank you very much indeed. for your contribution. >> it is dangerous to mix democracy with the military coup. somebody mentioned chile 1973. brazil, 1964. they're not very positive. you cannot talk about ella terry coup and democracy. the second thing is i think that ashton cannot do very much in terms of the union policy toward egypt. just like obama has no real strategy. -- the baroness is weighing ngo's -- playing ngo's.

that is a very positive thing but she should be aware and the same for obama and the same for everybody. the egyptians from afar. it is becoming not acceptable. the people in the street do not want to hear people telling them. >> this is set to continue beyond the limits of this program. there's lots to discuss. we are out of time. thank you for joining us. we appreciate your presence and thanks to our guests joining us from cairo and london. that was our debate. stay with us. the news continues.

hello and welcome to "newsline." i'm catherine kobayashi in tokyo. after a three-year stalemate, israel and palestine will soon resume peace negotiations. the two sides have committed to at least nine months of talks. israeli justice minister tzipi livni and palestinian chief negotiator, saeb erekat, made the announcement after a two-day meeting in washington.