france 24, a different take on the news.

>> the main stories, in zimbabwe, voting for the elections, hitting robert mcgarvey over longtime rival -- robert mugabe against longtime rival morgan tsvangirai. in egypt, supporters have ousted mohamed morsi. the military-backed organization was looking to clear supporters from the streets. 300 people have been killed since the beginning of the

month, including at least 80 when they fired on people over the weekend. investigating allegations of chemical weapons usage during ki-moon, the un's secretary- general, talking about this happening soon. they are seeking to gain control from rebels. and now, more news very shortly on france 24. >> welcome back to the france 24 debate, which could have

far-reaching results. a palestinian liar,, good to see you, sir, and a columnist for israel's top-selling newspaper. on the other side of our studio, an activist and architect, and good to see you, sir, and next to him, a law year at the paris bar. how you practice both at the same time is beyond me, but you are a better man than me. that is the caliber of the guests we have here at france 24. and joining me is a member with the atlantic council. we will be talking to a man who has perhaps seen it all and done

it all, a spokesperson from the israel the government joining us by phone. things for being with us. >> thank you very much. >> do you feel we are in a position where this deadline will hit and these talks can work? >> we hope that they can. we have been trying to get an agreement with the israelis and the palestinians, and we had all slow, which was an agreement region we had all slow-- we had oslo and another, which failed. 2008, which also failed, but those clearly underline the

effect that there is a desire to reach an agreement with all of the difficulties and all of the historical problems and religious problems and security. there is common ground, and the common ground is that both sides want to create two states, a jewish-israeli state and a palestinian state, living side- by-side peacefully, so it might not be easy, and it may take more than nine months. nine months is very ambitious, that i can tell you from our part, from the part of the israeli government, we will do all that is possible in order to reach such an agreement. >> thank you very much for joining us. the veteran spokesman for the israeli government, a person who has seen these things before. thank you for sharing your

analysis of the situation. he seems optimistic. do you share that optimism? >> a very important reason which has not been mentioned yet is that it is not only about reaching a peace agreement. as said earlier, many agreements were signed, and many attempts have failed. it is about implementing it. we are talking about a 10 to 15- year time, and we are looking to be able to implement what is going to be agreed upon if this ever happens i the israelis and the palestinians. in my view today, 20 years after the start of the process, we are in a radical, different situation. 20 years ago, there were not as

many settlers in the west bank. now, there are more than 500,000, so if you want to reach a deal on the basis of the two- state solution, you will have to swap land, to transfer land. this will create tensions. from time to time, agreeing on something can actually make the situation even worse than it actually is. >> it was said not to expect the peace process is israel is still running illegal settlements on the west bank. >> i think contrary to what was said before, i do not think president obama was out thoughts --thought. he was concentrating on the settlement issue, and it provided an excuse to not talk

for the last three years. the settlements are there. it will have to be dealt with. and this is what will have to be negotiated. if you take, for example, the u.n. resolution 242, which talks about creating permanent and secure borders, it does not talk about withdrawing from all territories. it talks about withdrawing from territories, and the word "the". there are hundreds of thousands of israeli citizens there, and there is nothing anyone can do about it right now. >> i am glad to hear an israeli emphasized the visible reality that basically says we are creating a new reality on the ground, and that is our position

as we negotiate. a reality, and we have to deal with it. i am glad to hear it clear he. >> i am hearing the undertone, to. let's bring in jonathan. is this something the palestinians have to get over, simply? >> i think it will be a very tough issue, but most of the settlers will be deemed to be on the israeli side of the line. but let me make a few points about things that came out in recent remarks. what has changed now is that the arab-israeli conflict is a sunni -- shia conflict. you have all of these in turmoil. all of the enemies are in turmoil. hezbollah, iran, they are all fighting.

second point, even benjamin netanyahu has been talking about this not working. talking about a referendum. that is a way to get around. if the israeli public buys what comes out of the nine months of negotiation, the referendum will support a peace agreement. finally, as i said earlier. they have an opportunity now that hamas has lost this theory in patron. they have split with hezbollah. and now, egypt has turned against them. they are on their own right now and cannot do that much damage. there is one issue that they have to work out. even jimmy carter, who is no friend of israel, he said at most one dozen palestinians will

go back to the pre-1967 borders. that friend jimmy carter suggests there might be some reality on the part of the palestinians. >> thank you very much, indeed. you are speaking about redrawing the whole map of the middle east, which is now disintegrating. this is one of the issues, isn't it? they have completely redefined the situation. >> we need to redraw the whole thing. more than 20 years ago was the off low regionoslow agreement. there was a kind of agreement on the land swaps and the fact that

within a definitive agreement, certain groups of settlements could be next, which will solve the problem of a majority of the actual settlers. they have evacuated all settlers in gaza, and in sinai, and i think the settlers will be verily violent, and this will only be a prelude to something much bigger, but it has been done before, and it is possible. i am less optimistic on the capability on the israeli society today to accept what could be a reasonable agreement

in the current situation. >> one should not forget the broader picture. it is a totally different situation with the arab awakening. why? because finally, they have to cope with the arab people. what people are saying in the streets. people want. it means that one way or another, they are defining it. political forces, i mean established forces, whether they be the egyptian government, the israeli government, western governments, reacting to what is happening on the ground, i do not see how it will be any different in palestine. we are experiencing his store coal times. -- his store coal times--

historical times. maybe there will be a configuration. the people are not represented. there is no accountability. >> what are you saying? >> the past is a substantial part of it. for example, one of the reasons i am not optimistic is because the jordanians are not part of this process. jordan sits on about two thirds

of historic palestine, and most of the jordanian population is palestinian, and they should be part of these negotiations and maybe part of the solution because there is not enough space in the west bank to create another state. and, so, it is about to pass, and it is not like this that a solution will be found. >> this has an impact all the way around. the issues are being sorted out. but fundamentally, it is about people living together. in the north of england over the water in ireland, the deaths and the bombings, and then they grow

up and became journalists and reported on those things. this is what you see all of the time, is it not? can they move things together? >> i think it is possible. i remember when people could move freely from 1967 in the west bank and even afterwards. palestinians and israelis cooperated economically, and there was freedom of movement, and things changed after a while, but the israelis and palestinians have proven that they can live together in peace. the question is will politicians be able to do it? one of the problems, it is not a problem, it is democracy, the israeli government has changed, and the process is just too long and cannot be concluded by one israeli government.

>> all media developments, a regular contributor, james, i know you have been looking at what has been happening. issue is meeting for you. >> some are picking up on the skepticism that has been expressed during the peace talks. israel, palestine, the negotiations for peace, do they have a chance for success? that is online. essentially, there is a 9 -- month period that was declared for these talks. this is something that is causing worry for the palestinians, that a diffent duration should be chosen to work with. exactly. on the huffington post website,

taking headlines for the past 20 years, going back to 19 93,-- 1993, how long this process has been going on and with varying degrees of success or lack of success. >> we have been here before and seen this, and it has not been as successful. >> exactly. the international press has taken a look, and they are headlining on the fact that there is no settlement freeze during these talks, and that was a condition, as stated by barack obama, at the beginning of the mandate. it was also a condition of the palestinians, and this has not been --

>> that has happened before. they referred to one is really newspaper--israeli newspaper, some of the prisoners held before the records in 1993, and people that israelis perceive as murderers are being welcomed. >> thank you. >> a very passionate question but not a strategic issue. this is not the major problem.

i can understand and sympathize with families of those murdered, seeing people who killed them leaving jail. i can understand that. i can also understand the political logic behind the decision, but i do not think-- this is not an important obstacle. >> i cannot get beyond what john kerry is saying. if we do not negotiate -- this is less dangerous than not negotiating at all, so we have to negotiate something. not on the basis of an oppressed population, an oppressed nation for the past 60 years or so,

living under occupation. it is not treated as a cause. the occupation i ignored, but it is the cause, and then you mention all of the things happening. this is also a ver import and cause for the arab nation. why can it not be treated with the symbolic weight for the whole region? >> in some places, it has not been that positive. i am sorry. go ahead. >> the missiles coming from gaza and lebanon, and iteemed to many israelis that ery time the army evacuate an area, it becomes a launching pad for missiles on its cities, and the peace movement and people who supported the peace movement, that has been seriously hurt by the missiles.

i also requiring the liberation of people who have been convicted of murdering civilians, women, children, that isot going to get the israeli populaon on the side of that. >> an important point you mention, there have been even accuray and-- there have been evacuations. >> in the meantime, nearly 100,000 settlers, indeed, west bank, and as we know, his store click, politically, religiously, the west bank is much more important to the israel eases ban gaza, which has no meaning whatsoever,--to the israelis than gaza.

there is a grassroots movement that is achieving results, which now has a growing influence. it is the boycott. i am convinced that one of the reasons we are back at the negotiation table is also because the palestinians realize they have alternatives. to put an end what an american jewish author characterizes as the crisis of zionism. realizing that they cannot remain at the same time jewish and democratic. why? because the borders of this country have expanded to the west bank, and now, the israelis through the palestinian authority hold the responsibility for the

population on the west bank, so the israelis have to make a choice, to have them agree to something that might look like a state but which, in fact, will not be, because he will not have the attributes of a state. this is what is at stake today. i think this is growing pressure. internationally, as well, pressure being put on artists that are going to israel. there is an important decision at a governmental level that was taken by the eu a few years ago that says from now, no corporation agreement will be signed with the israelis unless it is expressly stipulated in the agreement that the west bank and gaza, basically palestinian-

occupied territories, that they are not part of this agreement. >> boycotts do not work. the arabs have tried for 60 years. i do not think you can say that israel is an apartheid country, the way palestinians are trying to say. israel is a democratic country. >> actually, in the beginning of the process, the prime minister, the israeli prime minister, at that time stated if we do not reach a peace deal by the end of the year, 2008, no palestinian state by the end of that year, israel will face a situation of apartheid. >> that is what they have been saying for years, but every four

years, every apple years--every four years, they have sanctions, and the arab -- israeli citizens vote, and israel is a democratic society, and this threat that israel will one day have to be an apartheid state has not happened. >> it probably will never happen. >> go ahead. >> it is a concern that israel is concerned about the erosion of its status and also about what is going on in certain circles in the united states, and i do not think it was a mere coincidence days ago that a very senior american officer said again that israel becomes a liability, and i know that the united states, they are not a majority, and israel is in a

strong position, but it is not without threats, and i know also for and met and yahoo,--for netanyahu, that is an issue. the only thing they can bargain with today is this pressure. we should not exaggerate the importance of it, but we should not do the contrary either. it is painful, and the government is taking it very serious. >> in the final 30 seconds, in nine months, we will meet again and have some solutions? >> if they want to have conversations. >> i think we will be back here having the same discussion nine months from now. >> i think prime minister netanyahu said a few days ago, for the israelis, it is a prime

objective. >> let's bringin jonathan for a final word from london. >> we will have a handshake at the white house. >> thank you, sirs, for being with us, and thank you for patiently waiting. thank you to our guests in the studio. the situation between the israelis and the palestinians and the talks restarted. we will report on this every step of the way on france 24. stay with us. thank you all very much. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

welcome to "newsline." it's thursday, august 1st. i'm catherine kobayashi in tokyo. the two remaining nuclear reactors still in operation in japan will be shut down for regular inspections in mid-september. the move will bring all reactors in japan offline for the first time in 15 months. kansai electric power company is set to submit an application to the nuclear regulationut