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♪ >> welcome back to the newsroom. let's get a recap of our stories on france 24. shot execution style. in the sinai peninsula, they ambushed two buses carrying off- duty policemen, caring -- killing some of them. they ordered them to stop and get out before shooting them. and in another development in egypt, a court rules that hosni mubarak and could soon be released from jail within a matter of days. just six weeks ago, his successor, mohamed morsi, was toppled i the egyptian military. a massive influx of refugees. more than 30,000 serious have crossed into the curtis dan region during the past few days alone. observers say it is one of the

largest movements of its kind or in the course of these 30-month- long conflict. at least 37 people have been killed in northeast india on monday after a train ran over a group of hindu pilgrims at a crowded station in the northeastern state. angry and defiant, the u.s. journalist whose brazilian partner was interrogated at london's heathrow airport on sunday says he will now publish even more material. david was detained for nine hours under the uk terrorism act. this could be life behind bars.

that is it in the newsroom. >> welcome back, and welcome if you are just joining us. this is the france 24 debate. the european union met on monday, and there is going to be a foreign ministers meeting on wednesday, and there was a bit of a jousting going on about how to handle the crackdown that is taking place inside of egypt. nearly 1000 killed since last wednesday as the army moves and there are protests by those loyal to ousted president mohamed morsi. we have more joe hall. abdul is back with us from boston, massachusetts, and a

teacher from an israeli university. welcome back. also, a u.s. department official. we were talking during the break. we were mentioning how they are laying it on thick. the case they are putting against mohamed morsi, further detention of him, the proceeding that has been laid forth in this monday by the prosecutor. they are laying it on thick, and there is a thing going on about whether or not to ban the muslim brotherhood. over the weekend, for the first time since the crackdown, the head of the army spoke, and this is what he had to say. >> i want to tell these muslim brotherhood supporters, please reevaluate your position, and if you are truly speaking about

liberty, or receipt, legitimacy, you should know that legitimacy is in the hands of the egyptian people given or removed at there will. >> given or removed at there will, i guess an allusion to what happened before the ouster of morsi on july through. abdul, how do you look at that statement from the general? rex well, even considering the possibility that there is still room for some kind of negotiation or deal to come out of this, it seems like the representative is talking about this over the last week that nothing has happened to change the equation entirely. let's be frank. a massacre is not a negotiation tactic. the events of the last week, it cannot be overemphasized, given the nature of the brutality brutality witnessed by the egyptian people from the

military. i think that has to be taken into consideration. we have seen the reports. the human rights organizations, the journalists, there is some very different -- vivid imagery, not just a small amount of militants camped out with the protests, but against ordinary citizens, men, women, children, and journalists who have been killed throughout these events. we have been talking about this as though this is some kind of negotiation between two legal parties. a muslim brotherhood that as it exists now has been disbanded de facto if not in actuality. their assets have been seized. as a movement, it has been completely besieged by the state and the military. we're not talking about party sitting at a table and having a

negotiation. we are talking about an approach by the military against this organization, and we have to acknowledge that that before having this conversation. >> it is true that the muslim leaders of the brotherhood are either up to ground or in prison. what about that, that there is not any really serious thought towards negotiation? >> i do not know about the leaders, of course, but this approach has been taken by the two parties, the army and the government, the leadership, and in cairo and all over egypt, there are many going between the government and the muslim brotherhood, so it is not that the egyptians really need a mediator for this talk.

in addition, what is needed now is just to stop the egyptian society from paying much more heavy prices, so it is not that we -- >> how do you do that? how do you stop the spiral? >> getting the parties to reconsider or reevaluate, and it is for the muslim brotherhood to reevaluate their stance, and it is also for the government. i see the possibility that these

efforts would not be successful, and we are in the middle of a very fluid situation, and it would not serve us in understanding. what each is facing today. >> on twitter. go ahead, abdul. >> this has already been repeated twice, this idea that the muslim brotherhood refused to negotiate or has held a very hard line. you just mentioned your self that there was a report over the weekend that said that a deal was brokered, at the european union had that, that it was already acceptable, that they had agreed to the terms, and that everyone was expecting the military to hold up its end by

releasing some high-ranking people, and slowly de-escalate the situation. the muslim brotherhood has already abandoned the notion of the presidency. this goes far beyond morsi at this point. we are talking about hose me mubarak out of prison and the end of the resolution -- revolution. this is about completely abandoning democracy and the rule of law. all of the things that were fought for back in january 2011. that is really what this is about. it is no longer about the muslim brotherhood or about the presidency of morsi. at is what we have to keep in mind. >> ok, both sides. on twitter, we have this point. the west should learn to respect the free will of sovereign nations. human rights watch calls last week's killing the most serious

incident of mass unlawful killing in modern egyptian history. nonetheless, earlier, the uk foreign secretary. >> well, we recognize states, not governments. the united kingdom recognizes egypt, and we have to deal with the government there their. it is important. the prime minister of egypt. >> that it is legitimate. >> it is the government of egypt. it is the government we have to deal with. we do not deal with democratic processes, as we made clear at the time in early july, but do we deal with these people? yes, we do. >> does anybody in the european union feel the way william hague does? >> it was surprising the different ways the countries responded. at the beginning, it was said

that it was a massacre, and from the beginning, on the other side, france and germany said everybody has to calm down, the violence has to stop, and as it was when it started, and then hour after hour finally, everybody witnessed that it was almost a massacre and that the death toll grow -- it was ambiguous. now, some countries like denmark or germany, they have some strong statements, positions, and they will probably do something on a bilateral basis if the european union --

>> what you are sg is that this includes stop it, cut it out, and then, as the bloodshed rises, more and more countries start to weigh in. in the united states at the start of the month, a august 1, the u.s. secretary of state declares that the army was, quote, restoring democracy. as john kerry said, the military was asked to intervene by millions and millions of people. the military did not take over, to the best of our judgment so far, and on thursday, we saw barack obama come out and calling it not a coup but a military intervention, his words, but there was a sort of period that went on for two weeks, and this happened on july 3, if i have the timeline correctly.

people sort of hedged their bets and take their time and follow the timeline of diplomacy rather than the timeline of the way things are unfolding on the streets of cairo. we come back to washington. >> no, i do not think so, because during the time period we are talking about, a joint diplomatic endeavor with the uae, i believe it was, in cairo, and you had, i think, a kind of very real hope that, as i said earlier, all of this could be put quickly on the rails, and you could avoid this uncomfortable discussion for washington, was it military, was it not, and what you have now is a completely different situation. it is completely radicalized, where you have no apparent room for compromise, and a consistent upping of the rhetoric, i would say --

>> the two u.s. senators, john mccain and lindsey graham, they went to cairo, and they were talking about the military. >> but they are two voices in congress that has taken a quite different view looking at the larger stakes involved. i think for the united states, the larger stakes, what the u.s. government is trying to do, what washington is trying to do is to remind everybody, particularly egypt, that egypt is very delicate, and some people like me, who remember algeria in the 1990's, there was a point where there was no 20 back -- no turning back. egypt is already at that point, and i think the bottom-line point, not just in the united states but in the international community is that there needs to be some sort of stop, some sort

of what i think we call in the u.s. a moment to cool down, you know, and sort of take stock of the situation and decide what to do moving forward rather than just continue to elect the dynamic as it is playing out now, where emotion and rhetoric -- >> how do you hit the pause button? >> well, i think the u.s. is trying to figure -- i am sure we are coordinating very closely with the europeans. the bright star exercise cancellation was one thing. >> the military exercises. >> right. >> so they should not deliver those helicopters that they are scheduled to? >> i do not know if they should or should not, but with cairo, there are consequences with all of the actions. it has to be done. but what washington does not want to do, what washington does

not want to do is to put at risk all of the larger equities, which includes passage through the suez canal, counterterrorism operation, continuing the peace treaty with israel, and all of these things eerie they cannot be jettisoned in order to take it out on a determined regime in cairo. >> it is said that the review on security is still on point, adjustments will be made, quote, as needed. >> that is saying nothing, actually. they know that the saudi arabia in foreign affairs minister said that if help from the western countries is sinking, we will help, but i just want to come back to your question before, who can help, and how you can help to make a pause. i think this is not from outside but from inside. what is interesting is there is

this very conflicting situation, and they are still supporting the regime, the military regime, but there will be one point where they will not be able to participate, if the regime is continuing to do violence, but if the regime is, for example, judging the muslim brotherhood according to completely rational -- irrational criteria, continuing this a violent politics, i think some will probably change their mind. he is isolated right now, and what is striking an amazing for us is that the liberals and the democrats, the liberals are supporting the regime and its politics, but if this is going on, i think that some other

liberals will say stop to the regime. >> getting outside reactions. the israeli government. israel shares interviews with the u.s. and some other countries, and that is restoring stability. restoring law and order. and then there is the turkish prime minister, who addressed a rally in istanbul on saturday. >> mosques are holy places. but they have destroyed mosques. all through serious and egypt. bashar al-assad and others are no different from each other. >> what is your reaction to that? >> well, first, i would say it is extremely interesting to point out that three major

allies of the united states in the middle east are taking basically a different position, and saudi arabia, the egyptian government, and israel, and what we are seeing on the ground is asking them not to speak about the crisis but at the same time sending messages through several parts of europe, to stop this criticism, especially in public. the regime in cairo.

it will not serve the major interests, so this will be a complexity of the position in this situation. >> some have said that the israelis are making a mistake here, sticking their next out. why are they doing that? >> basically because of the situation that most israelis hold to, that the arab spring has turned into an islamic winter, in the regime in egypt was seen by this government as basically a negative development. the government was extremely happy.

morsi. my point is, of course, this is a very narrow way to look into the complex situation in egypt, but this is the way the right wing coalition in israel is. >> and one of her way -- one other way of looking at this, and addition of the wall street journal. it is said the saudi king backs the crackdown, with a speech abdullah made over the weekend. that those who interfered in egypt, internal affairs, and they themselves are fanning the fire of sedition. now, whether or not that was a dig at qatar, a big backer of the muslim brotherhood, what is interesting is the new foreign minister of qatar.

slightly defensive in the remarks he made with his french counterpart. >> as far as the qatar support of the muslim brotherhood, there are some wrong impressions that they are providing. guitar has never given aid to an egyptian group or an egyptian political party. the aid has always been provided to egypt. >> abdul, they are trying to act low profile on this one. >> well, of course, it was, in some ways, a backer of the arab spring, the uprisings. there was some exception o that. when you look at the events in yemen over the last few years, we have found that the government has taken on an agenda for a number of internal reasons or regional reasons.

you mentioned it is trying to promote the arab spring. >> what we heard sounded like a backdrop, didn't? >> yes. it's policy, having invested in the muslim brotherhood or at least the transitional process going on for the last two years, it essentially is a match between the saudi's and others, and now, they are trying to backtrack on that position, given that it essentially backed what was a losing horse in this race. they were trying to play a very instrumental role when the negotiations were going on. they were part of a larger delegation that included the u.s. and other officials who try to negotiate, and countries will continue to play an important role as mediator. they do enjoy a lot more, and

they have come front and center for their role in generating this. >> so you are saying being here again. i want to thank you for joining us from doha, and i want to thank our guest from boston, and our other guest, for being with us, and before we go, we would like to say hello to james and get a sample of our media buzz segment this monday. james? >> in the debate, close me mubarak and the potential release in the next few days, internet users have, of course, been reacting. many have seen the irony with the fact that morsi is still being detained. , and the troops out -- and the

truth shall set you free. a potential release. this is with the situation already explosive. and there is a cairo-based journalist. improving move barrick -- hostname of a -- murba -- mubarak. and two other stories i want to look at this evening. this is a big one. we have seen pictures in rio de janeiro with the return of a man from berlin using heathrow airport, and he is a partner of one of the principal journalists between the nsa, edward snowden's leaks, and he was

detained in heathrow airport. that is the maximum amount of time you can detain someone. and basically 97% is under this terrorism act. it lasts for less than one hour, and he was held for nine hours, so clearly, there is something there. the white house said it did give authorities a heads up as regards to him passing through heathrow airport. what is interesting is he had been going to berlin to meet with a person. there was a transfer of documents between him and berlin. he was transferring information. i think that might somehow intentionally explained this nine hour delay. and all of his material was confiscated. nothing was returned.

nothing was returned. the guardian has been all over this story. and another story we look at, the editorial of "le monde" was on this today. if there is not a boycott, the propaganda for nontraditional sexuality, which is seen by many as targeting, sexual's, there was yesterday between a two russian athletes, and they risk legal action. needless to say, the editorial says the issue should not be the olympics themselves, and they should use the democratic countries as a chance to speak out against that. >> all right. a smothering. james is following our media

buzz segment. thank you for joining us here on france 24. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--