>> hello and welcome, you were watching "debate here co the debate -- debate." american special forces grabbing one of the alleged masterminds of the 1980 eight u.s. embassy bombing in nairobi. who has the moral high ground in this case?

two years after france, they helped push out qaddafi whose job is it to prevent libya from becoming a safe haven for radicals. the land that orders the mediterranean and a gateway to africa. we will be having the media watch segment. >> corruption charges against france. they denied soliciting secret campaign five planting -- financing. security forces targeted in several parts of the country after clashes left more than 50 people dead, mostly in cairo. they deserve credit. they get underway.

the words of nicolas sarkozy after corruption charges were dropped. expected to make a comeback and run again, getting funding for the 2007 campaign. >> nicolas sarkozy will not stand trial. accused of taking advantage. prosecutors argued he expected -- accepted campaign donations when she was too frail to know what she was doing. she has suffered from dementia since 2006. after months of deliberation, judges have dropped all charges against sarkozy. six have former -- he was

alleged to accept from the confident. it gives hope of a political comeback a shot in the arm. he says he may be obliged to return to save france from the socialist created financial crisis. there are still major legal hurdles. the president has been indicated that there was impact from a pakistani arms deal. he also faces investigations into a 405 million states pay out to the disgraced french business mogul and the potential misappropriation of government funds during his time in office. >> several attacks targeting

security forces. a town in southern sinai, six soldiers killed in a drive-by shooting. the satellite station in the southern -- southern suburb of cairo came under attack after more than 50 people died when security forces clashed with supporters of ousted leader mohamed morsi. we have more on the latest violence. >> we had these triple attacks across egypt today. one was what appears to be a car bomb targeting a security headquarters in southern sinai. there appears to be two people killed and around 50 injured in that attack. the main security headquartered gates, a massive explosion. this has been the police and military targeted on a daily

basis since mohamed morsi was deposed. this was in southern sinai, one of the majored tourist destinations. authorities will be wanting to clamp down on that really quickly. this time, there was one officer killed in a number of soldiers with what appears to have been a drive-by shooting by unknown gunmen. a satellite installation owned by the state. this was a rocket propelled grenade that was fired at the satellite installation. there have been no casualties as far as we know. it is not clear if these attacks were coordinated as nobody has yet claimed responsibility for what happened. >> moving on to another wave of

bombings in iraq, 22 people died this monday across the capital of baghdad. john kerry says the u.s. and russia are very pleased with the regime's compliance so far with the chemical weapons deal. after international monitors began the destruction of serious stock file. -- syria's stockpile. >> the long protest of -- process of ridding the government of their chemical weapons has been in the country for less than a week. >> i think it is also credit to

the regime for complying as they are supposed to. we hope that will continue. i will not vouch today for what happens months down the road, but it is a good beginning. >> the disarmament steam has tons of nerve agents. the un security council once that work and pleaded by the middle of next year. despite the resistance, they say they have never used chemical weapons. they said what they handed over was very transparent. they can go to every site and will have all the data from our government. they paved the way for another round of peace talks. russia and the u.s. will push for discussions to start in mid- november.

>> turkey is building a wall along the border with syria. they hope to prevent smuggling and to stop people from illegally bypassing check points. >> another 17 bodies have been recovered off the island after the boat disaster. a boat carrying african migrants caught fire and sank. it is among the deadliest on record. we spoke to one of the survivors. >> dozens of beds are lined up close together in the barracks. the young man have few or no personal belongings or are exhausted. one of the survivors agreed to meet them inside the camp.

the barbed wire does not stop anyone. isa recounted the last tragic hours. >> it is all of you, 500 people. all of these people are fair. >> the coast was only a few hundred meters away. >> out of reach, 300 cc's, 300 50 people were killed. >> i am looking for a country

with a strong economy because we are told there is no work here. it is not all sorted out yet, bu what i want is to go to switzerland. >> they fled poverty and are hoping that it will be a gateway to europe. 123 days is how long it will take for the flame to arrive at the olympic torch. >> celebrating in central moscow , the synchronized swimming champion the first of the

russian capital's streets. >> it is my first time carrying the flame so there is a lot of expectation. it means a lot of preparation and a lot of work to do. i think it will be a great winter olympic games. >> lasting 123 days. once the torch leaves the capitol, itill wind its way to st. petersburg and travel to make its way east on some of russia's most extreme areas before coming south. and after 65,000 kilometers, it is the russian authorities hope that they will showcase the nation. it was criticism over the high cost.

making the most expensiven history. >> a former greek defense minister has been sentenced to 20 years behind bars for money laundering. an athens court found them a prominent figure guilty a long with 16 of the 18 codefendants. that's it for now. now for the debate. >> thanks for that in tehe newsroom. when you think the u.s. government is in shutdown mode, to targets identifying muslim radical lists and the leader of the insurgents may well have failed. successful in grabbing one of the alleged plotters of the 1998 bombing of the u.s. embassy in kenya and tanzania.

no extrajudicial killing or drone strike. he will be sent to new york where he is being formally indicted. the administration insists it is legal, but libya is calling it a kidnapping with theigovement humiliated and left out of the loop. with rising attacks, locals fear a repeat of the september 11 attacks in benazi, one that killed the u.s. ambassador there. with local militias putting the oil output under lock and key, whose job is it to prevent radicals from filling a power vacuum? klatt -- >> that is the topic today.

150 kilometers from the capital, an independent member of the libyan national congress. the upcoming book titled a woman's war, human rights torn advising the libyan government. and also the former north african bureau director. and also author of the manufacturing of an enemy. how to kill with a clean conscience. you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. before we dive into what is going on in libya, t's hear what the latest things we have regarding the raid in somalia. they list the navy seal target as a kenyan national who is

quoted in a kenyan intelligence report as the mastermind of a failed plot last year to target the parliament building and the united nations headquarters in nairobi. what do you think of the timing of these attacks? it is coming just on the heels of that siege, and on the other hand, a 13 year search for him. >> i don't think there is anything specific about the timing. possibly quite coincidental. >> they both happened the same day. >> the u.s. can walk and chew gum at the same time. both of these operations were well planned quite a long time in advance. it was driven by immediate intelligence that indicated now was the time to strike.

i would point out that a lot of what i understand took place in both of these raids involved tactics and units that were well trained and well experienced. these guys are used to doing this stuff and quickly. these operations can take place very fast, but it depends on the intelligence. >> i do believe it is not possible to decide the timetable from washington. to know when the attack will be precisely at the right time to do it. i don't think it is a coincidental movement to make a statement. i think the decision was to

decide when the right time to do it was. >> the two situations completely different. he has been on an fbi most wanted list with a bounty on his head for 13 years. more on his specific case. >> reenacting the arrest of their father, security cameras showed for cars early on saturday as he was returning for morning prayer. >> broke the window and took him out of his car. >> he had been on the most wanted list since 2001. he is accused by the united states of plotting the 1998 bombing tax on the embassies in

kenya and tanzania that killed 220 people. the arrest was criticized by the prime minister that call that a kidnapping. they said the man looks libyan and spoke with local accents. >> of course it was an act of piracy to kidnap my brother. they should have submitted a document to the libyan government and put my brother on trial here like any libyan citizen. >> john kerry says they don't give details of operations like this to foreign governments. >> he is a key al qaeda figure and an up propria target for the u.s. military under the authorization for the use of military force past in september of 2001. >> he will have the chance to

defend himself in a u.s. court. >> a legal and appropriate target, says the u.s. secretary of state. do you agree ipo? -- agree? >> i don't know. i don't want to pronounce myself on that. i can understand that he has been there for a long time, nothing has happened. the government decided to intervene. what i wanted to say, the issue is libya and the transitional government. we have to keep in mind that we are in a situation one year

after revolution and the government is not actually a government. they are trying to put themselves together to work. this is the most concerning issue because they don't have control over their own security. this is what should be a concern for other states. >> a government statement saying it had not been informed. is that the case? >> the government and the national congress, they have no idea that is this issue, according to my knowledge, they are upset about this cooperation.

we do agree that libya has to build up the hostilities and institutions in libya. but it doesn't mean we are not capable to handle such an issue. what happened is something really frustrating. the people, the government, and the congress -- this operation -- >> how should the u.s. have gone about it? >> nowadays, we are building up our institutions. we believe that the u.s. and

almost the whole work, we are trying to build a relation with them. we should agree about whatever. being accused for anything. we do appreciate that. this is an agreement between our country, our government, our congress. >> let me get william jordan's reaction. >> perhaps it was and it is not saying. >> as i said, the security update that level or those

standards, we are looking for. but we have capabilities to deal with any case. to hire people to have such operations, this is something not right and not clear. >> referring to the fact that the reports say it was men with libyan accents that carried out the attack. >> we don't know what happened and a bit more information may come out. secretary kerry was being careful not to say more in terms of the back and washington. i believe that the u.s. embassy and the u.s. government in general have been having conversations through intelligence liaison channels.

that the u.s. government does not like to do this sort of thing as a rule. it does not like to undertake high risk operations. you prefer to be working with law enforcement and legal mechanisms in any given country. as i said earlier, the situation in libya is far from such that the united states can have confidence being able to keep this guy in custody were here rested or turned over to the u.s. to face charges if he was arrested by the libyans. what i believe happened is there was an ongoing dialogue between the cia and libyan intelligence services. a very strong relationship between the cia and libyan intelligence.

it would be through that channel because it would be considered the most secure. some sort of indication of our intense interest. but when it came down to the operation, it was handled entirely unilaterally. maybe the intelligence services operated and provided some of the personnel to be able to do it. he was turned over to us and the united states was taken out that way. >> this conjures up the memory of may 2012, the capture and killing of osama bin laden in pakistan. they clearly were not in the know of what happened and this is clearly a different case.

>> it is difficult to cooperate with a secret service. cooperating with islamists.m of- they were very pro could not see. the former secret service is now on trial and we are asking him to get back for this terrorist attack. i don't know what you would describe in which you can trust them to make a sense of pressure -- >> i can respond to that and i agree with you. one of the top priorities in my opinion based on what i know when we were reestablishing the relationship with the regime and

the fundamentally crucial role that the relationship that intelligence services played in that. from what i understand, they and the u.s. government would place the highest priority following the end of the regime on reestablishing partners of a similar statute and reliability. i don't know to what extent you still have people still in the eso. still in place. my guess is that the agency is putting a lot of money in investing with the training and maintaining this relationship. believe me, i don't want to bring up then. c.

that would not have been possible without the express support and cooperation of some kind of intelligence services on the ground. i believe there is some kind of ongoing cooperate of relationship. what is not clear is the degree to which this was a combined or joint operation, or this was something done entirely with u.s. assets. >> you know that when qaddafi was in charge, they are now ruling the country. it is difficult to say that these guys can cooperate. >> this is a problem throughout

north africa and around the region. this bringing in of the islamist forces. those associated with the very terrorists we were concerned about previously. i am not entirely defending the policy but the mentality of the people in place is like the cia. they are going to be looking for people who continue to maintain a commitment to the role of preserving security. that doesn't mean you don't have ongoing tensions inside libya between a lot of these groups closely associated with al qaeda and others. >> you have heard the objections

of the libyan lawmaker. will there be a lasting impact on relations between washington and tripoli? >> what i found very interesting with what he was saying was that i think we have to look at what the reaction will be of the people. >> we will pick up on that issue when we come back. the infighting taking place two years after the ousting of qaddafi.

>> welcome back. right here, the egyptian security forces targeted and several parts of the country after clashes left more than 50 dead. the destruction of syria

postulate all stockpile is underway. -- syria's stockpile is underway. at least 22 killed there. the former french president clear with the case of illicit campaign financing. we have more on the top of the hour. talking weekend raids and the situation in libya.

also with us, william jordan. the manufacturing of an enemy and how to kill with a clean conscience. you had actual human beings. >> it was a strike, you know?

>> i think everyone of these operations was specific. you undertake the operation with whatever tools you want to bring to bear depending on the actual conditions. i don't think we will see the end of drone strikes, you can only deploy them so many places and ramp them up to do certain things. if the risks are acceptable, you can do that. libya was on obvious success, somalia was less so.

it will depend on what the intelligence tells you and how quickly you think you need to act. >> not all public opinion? >> we were talking about libya just before the break. 16 soldiers mowed down outside the capital. well armed gunmen showed up and opened fire at point-blank range. we don't know exactly who did this. it shocked libya, of course. was it qaddafi loyalists? islamists, a turf war? we see more of these attacks in the last couple of weeks. >> that is what i was just about

to say just before. we need to look at it from a broader perspective because the prime minister was saying that a few days ago. this is a complicated situation. they are building their states and they have the problem with militias and the problem you can find in many other countries. sometimes it has to be looked at from a very simple perspective. there is complete destabilization while trafficking. nothing is functioning. this is what is happening. i don't know, but i wish i could find someone who can tell me what is going on.

and first of all, the prime minister said so. they are trying, but it is so complicated. there is the issue of tribes and clans. i think we should refrain from looking at it from our perspective. when i was mentioning the cia after 9/11 and the extraordinary rendition, there are cases of people who have been abducted by alleged cia people in the middle of the country. these kind of things have been done before. >> in this particular case, the u.s. authorities saying they will send it to new york where they will be tried in court and in public.

>> there were people suspected of terrorism that have been abducted in countries to be brought to guantánamo. that is the kind of practice that is considered illegal. >> we don't need crisis management. we need damage control. the disputes we are seeing in libya, seriously denting their main source of revenue. numbers vomiting spectacularly. the leader of one militia and trusted with leaving the petroleum defense guards turning

on tripoli, shutting down the terminal, demanding greater autonomy. the gates of the major oil facilities, they declined to say where they got the funds to pay the salaries and i think of this as a job creation plan. when you see this situation brewing where libya is vulcanized in the same way iraq is. all this is happening on the shores of the mediterranean. the gateway to africa.

the same forces that stepped in. are they responsible? >> the map of havens for terrorist is more complicated than that. they seem to focus more on the risk. but i would like you to pay attention to two aspects that seem to be very important. there is the collapsed state. and you also are very good protecting the paramount legal systems. we are asking canada to extradite the guy responsible for a terrorist attack 35 years ago.

today, we have no policy. the biography is very interesting. he flew to afghanistan and saudi arabia. he went to london and got a presence there. these guys are protected. >> this was obviously before september 11, 2001. haven't policies in western countries changed on that regard? >> no. they had the terrorist attack in london.

i think that we have to implement a very normal legal system. he was indicted of the attack. it is a very important case. >> the u.s., france, britain, either tipping the scales against it off the, we painted a grim picture of a lot of laces. what should they be doing about that? >> i think i am explaining why by using a solution. our you asking for the libyan legal system to extradite the guy that is protected? it would be a violent case, more

violent then americanthe case iy to make the preparations. just remember it is more complicated. it is not so easy. it is the realistic solution. >> on the debate facebook page, we asked you whose job is it to fill the power vacuum to prevent the likes of al qaeda setting up shop inside of libya? we have an answer.

i think we know where the answer is, but are we interested in admitting it right now? not so sure. they took those scales. he seems to imply it is their responsibility to do more. >> i think getting back to that. i have described how i think the u.s. government talked to the libyan government, it indicated rather indirectly that they wanted to grab him somehow. the details of the operation are still somewhat murky.

i am the first to admit that we can't believe there will be no blowback. there will inevitably be some kind of a backlash. just as the situation in september of 2012 was, it is having an impact on how the u.s. government is able to prosecute its relationship. if there will not be another repetition of this, and there is a sizable but restrained contingent of marines ringing that though they now.

-- building now. i submit that france, london, and other western and international powers, the obvious but difficult to achieve answer to all of this is to work with libyans to build up their capabilities and to gain control over these militias. it has so far proved frustratingly difficult. even though the command is in the process of trying to figure out how to train offshore elements of these militias to create a viable military force, it is not going to be easy to do. >> and we can add another layer to all this. the tunisian government looking into the assassination of

outspoken sector oppositions, accusing a radical imam in tunis the same day the ambassador was killed, accusing of regrouping and forming men outside of libya. all of these different elements, the attacks we see more and more on security forces. and also what we have seen with various parts of the country seemingly breaking off. >> i don't know, but first i wanted to say, the answer is to try to provide support and help to the libyan government and him prove the security service.

i don't want to defend the libyan government or anything, but they are also good people trying to do things. the problem with libya is that it is complicated because they have this kind of schizophrenic relationship. on one hand, they want it but in reality, they don't. they look at you as a foreigner coming in. i was in new york with the minister of justice as we try to have a summit on sexual violence. you see it is very complicated and i think this is one of the answers. it takes time and we have to deal with that. i am not a political analyst.

maybe in the meantime, there are things that need to be done in a certain way. i don't support that, but they need time because it is really deteriorating. i am sure there are ways to support them but you need to talk to them and go there instead of looking from the outside and coming up with these ideas. >> do you feel as if western leaders are talking enough with leadership in e >> i'm not sure, to be honest. when i look at my country, i have the feeling that we have been heavily involved in libya. that is how the government feels.

they want to do things. to prosecute what is going to happen with the son of qaddafi, i am not saying they are right. but the reality is that we try to help them and work with them. instead of continuing to fight, a few days ago, there was a question i found interesting, asking if libya was failing. what would i say? he was saying that we tried to set up the state after years of dictatorship.

the issue that one good point, i can put it like this, he was able to control all of this. you have the issue of tribes, clans, i worked on trafficking the past year. and there is money being made by these people. why do we want them to stop. >> we talked about this in places like kosovo. a plan for what would happen afterwards. was there a plan after qaddafi? >> i am worried about the fact that i don't see any reverse of the collapsed state.

everyone knows afghanistan. we have solved that aspect of the question. i don't believe it is possible to build the state in which a political contract is not clear. we are facing from the beginning of it, there are a lot of military strikes. behind us, you know, it is a collapsed state. for the rulers of the world, time to think about the way to use military forces. >> i think libya sums up the major problem.

it was an artificial contrivance of colonial powers and three distinct regions starting to break apart. the libyan political classes have the figure out how to accommodate regional tendencies as well as addressing economic and other needs of the people. you have the element of criminality and the rise of militias. it ultimately has to come from the libyans themselves as opposed to being imposed or brokered from the outside. >> before we go, let's say hello.

we have been watching the story of libya. humming back to france, a man is breathing a sigh of relief. >> nicolas sarkozy today has been let off the hook. this is the l'oreal heiress. donations to the election campaign that the accountant said that they went straight to nicolas sarkozy. there was no proof that he pressured a 90-year-old lady suffering from dementia into making this huge donation. >> nicolas sarkozy is no longer involved in this.

he updated his facebook page saying so. we don't know if it was him or not, but he very rarely post on facebook. he said after all the hours of interrogation, the negative articles, i have finally been pdeclared innocent and he had a dig saying, for all of those writing things about me, remember the principle of innocent before proven guilty. he names his allies and family and the head of the unp party. it could be relevant because the left now saying this is a man that said this was a man that would run for presidential elections and suggested he could be implicated in the political future. >> sarkozy himself? >> yes. they reported this news, a

french left-wing paper. a very short article just a pretext to open a forum of discussion and comments from their readers saying things like we are disgusted, this shows that crime pays. more jokey responses saying that they have reduced a celebration t-shirt. they were trying to push the story forward a little bit. the case has been dropped against him, but it doesn't mean a lot of judicial dossiers. there is the affair where he is accused of taking kick backs from pakistan for dodgy -- >> the campaign prime minister? >> also having monopoly contracts.

people say this is not all over. >> the story abroad that everybody has been watching is iran's reaction to netanyahu. >> a bit of a fashion faux pas, talking to bbc persia about the relative lack of freedom in iran and said that if iranians were really free, they would listen to western music and wear jeans, voting democratically in free elections. iranians can wear jeans and they do. they were not shy about reminding him with all of these xers. even a little picture of him with his grandson wearing jeans. >> i want to thank our panel and thank you for joining us here for the debate.

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