tv Taiwan Outlook PBS October 29, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
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>> after three years and six weeks in captivity, poor men are now finally free. they were kidnapped by the north african arm of al qaeda in september 2010. french president francois hollande has announced the release on a state visit to slovakia. let's listen. >> i wish to express all my gratitude to the president who
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has succeeded in securing the release of our company. i am also thinking of the seven french hostages who were still being held. two are in --. one in nigeria. four in syria. i wish to say to them this simple message, do not give up hope. >> the french president also said the former hostages would return to france as soon as possible. the french foreign and defense ministers are to bring them home. speaking not long ago on french television, the grandfather of one of the hostages said they all seemed to be in good health. the men were abducted on september 16, 2010 in the town of our let. they were working for a nuclear giant. >> this was the home of danielle
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where they were kidnapped on september 16, 2010 by terrorists linked to al qaeda. five other people were kidnapped that night in the city. they all worked for nuclear giant areva. authorities say the companies could have done more to protect their employees. >> this kidnapping took place because employees were not protected. i am not criticizing, that is just a fact. >> the kidnappers took the hostages to an unknown location. they took these pictures. they show daniel and françois and others in captivity. françois, who had health problems, was released in february 2011. along with two other hostages. the second video was released at the end of august 2012.
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>> it has been two years. it is not normal. have you forgotten us? i went for a specific job, not for tourism. my company should contact al qaeda and do what it must to free me. >> the summer, a third video was released. the victims families called for action. >> the french government can't just abandon these french citizens. it is their duty to find solutions that allow their quick release. >> in previous cases, the french government has paid ransoms to secure their citizens' release though the government has always denied it. other french nationals were abducted in 2011. -- executive one of them in march 2013. >> for more, i bring in philip.
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thank you for speaking to us. this news now comes days after regional security sources had reported the presence of -- speeding up negotiations. france has denied sending envoys. what are your thoughts on how exactly the release of these hostages might have taken place? >> i have a lot of questions about it. was this a military action? if money was paid, which group was this? i have more questions than anything else concerning this. i am pleased that they are released. >> you mentioned these different actions of al qaeda. talk us through these different factions. >> you have -- who was involved with the attack in january 2013. he leads one faction.
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now, you have the other group in west africa which joined up. there are competing islamist groups in the sahara. >> tell us a bit more about the history of this conflict in niger and why al qaeda has taken on so much importance there in recent years. >> first, it is a country that is impoverished. you have safe havens there for these type of operations. it was formed as a franchise of al qaeda. you have a lot of states that are weak. there is a lot of contraband, drug trafficking going on. it is a complicated situation. >> thanks for speaking to us.
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also with me now, our chief foreign editor robert parsons. mark perlman, thanks to you both. >> one of the other factors -- a large foreign community as well which are an easy target in a country like that where the state is weakened. >> absolutely. now, we have learned that these four french hostages who have been held for the past three years have been released. that news was announced by the french president. mark kirk -- mark perlman, what have you been able to find out so far? >> i was on the phone with the interior minister very briefly and he was telling me that the hostages were indeed on their way from the airport to a residence. we can assume that it is the residence of the french ambassador to niger where the foreign and defense ministers will meet them and probably
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bring them tomorrow morning here in paris. this is the latest. i asked if we know where they were free, but there was no answer. they are probably going to let the french authorities disclose what they were willing to disclose. we don't know what those hostages were freedin niger or mali. there was a military offensive by the french, the u.n. and the malian army. maybe this was part of the rescue operation or maybe those were separate operations. we still need to figure this out. the good news is that they are out. the mystery is how they got out. >> alex, what more do we know about where the hostages were held? there have been reports that perhaps they were held in mali. >> we have had reports over the last few days of a negotiating
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team having been seen. the reports were denied by the french authorities for obvious reasons. the more ongoing sort of knowledge that we as reporters have on what we are regularly informed of is that most probably, hostages are held in the far north of mali, the area which has been the hardest for the french troops to actually gain control of. this is an area which is very close to algeria. they're also moving them into algeria from time to time. >> what about the negotiations? the french have said that there were no envoys sent. it does seem that some negotiations were taking place. but can you tell us about those negotiations and what you have heard? >> it looks as though based on
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recent cases that the president of niger is going to get credit for this release. of course, the french authorities have been involved. we should look at the construction companies that the men were working for. all of them would have been in close contact as well. what we do know is that at one point, they demanded 19 million euros for the men's release. we don't know if any money was paid. >> thanks for that. just to finish up, our chief of foreign affairs editor robert parsons, what are your thoughts? no government will admit to paying ransom. it have been paid? >> we can't rule out the possibility. hostagetaking is an extremely lucrative business. that is why al qaeda and the islamists take hostages. they can make a lot of money far quicker than they can make it by any other means.
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in the past, they have been successful in doing this. governments have denied that they have carried out negotiations. they subsequently turned out to have paid. in the past, the french government was regarded as a soft touch by many with these organizations. in recent years, over the last government and the current government, things have appeared to be different. the french government's have been taking a much tougher line. whether in this cage money has been paid, we don't know yet. certainly, the french on the surface, the authorities have been taking a tougher line. >> thanks so much for that. thanks to you for watching. stay tuned. we're going to head down to our studio with françois picard for the debate and the ongoing coverage of this news that four french hostages who have been held for over three years have indeed been released. françois picard, it is up to you now. >> parsons upstairs in the
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newsroom. we have been scrapping the script the last hour as the news has come in. those four french hostages taken a little over three years ago have now been freed. the announcement was made by the french president himself on a trip to slovakia. joining me here in the studio is mark perlman who has been following the story closely. you just spoke to the interior minister. you're saying, safe in the capital, far from the mine where they were taken some three years ago. >> the latest news said they were on their way to a residence, presumably the residence of the ambassador. i heard the sirens of the police. this is what we know. there in the french -- the
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foreign ministers are on their way to bring the back. what we don't know is how they got there. when i asked the interior minister, he said i am not going to answer. lots of mysteries. lots of questions. was this the result of a negotiation? was this result of a military offensive? the question was, whether they would release the hostages as an exchange for maybe staying alive and being allowed to stay alive. >> that is an important you -- point you made. a little over one year ago, the french go into mali to stop an islamist offensive. they did so knowing there were those hostages that were still there. those hostages, not executed. instead, held for ransom.
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we don't know whether a ransom has been paid. >> officially, françois has said it is over. we have seen more hostagetaking of french citizens in recent months. that being said, the families were just terrified when they learned that the french were going to mali. the first thing hostagetaking are going to do, they are just going to kill them. the french president said no, this doesn't have an impact on the situation of the hostages. today, it proves he was right. how did this happen and why did the hostage takers not take the lives of their hostages is a mystery. maybe this was a bargaining chip that they had. >> we will go more into the nuts and bolts of who was holding these hostages in a moment. let's welcome our guests.
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joining us from london, paul has been following this. joining us from the united states, andrew. welcome as well, sir. these hostages being freed, we knew something the last few days was up. not a complete surprise. >> not a complete surprise. there have been increasing reports in the last two months or so about negotiations picking up again. the various actors who might have been involved including a former senior officer of the french military -- it is not completely clear. >> it is a good news story. it hasn't always been the case that hostages taken in the sahara has been freed. >> no, there have been several
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hostages who have either died in rescue attempts or from ill health and at least one if in a case, a british citizen was delivering the executed. this was certainly not an outcome that could be guaranteed. the fears of the hostages' families when the french military engaged in their offensive, certainly there were very good reasons for the families to be worried. also, there is a tradition, a substantial element of the jihadist movement from groups who have been active who have seen hostagetaking as a very the credit business opportunity. there were risks that the hostages faced. there was also a possibility
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that the groups would seek to get something in return. whether it was money or political position or a security position, a chance to escape or something. there were risks and there were opportunities. >> risks and also positives. if you're just joining us, those four hostages freed. there are three other french hostages still being held somewhere in the sahara. the french president francois hollande making the announcement himself while on a visit to the slovakian capital. >> i wish to express all my gratitude to the president of niger who has succeeded in securing the release of our compatriots. i am also thinking nevertheless of the seven french hostages who were still being held. two are in --, one in nigeria,
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four in syria. i wish to say to them this simple message, do not give up hope. >> there you hear the french president. the defense minister, the foreign minister already on their way to measure -- to nig er. this is something -- suddenly there seems to be an opening the last couple of weeks. >> i understand that the french defense minister actually went secretly in the region in recent weeks to make sure things were happening. the real question is, whether this was part of the military offensive which we have seen in mali and that this was hiding a
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rescue operation or, whether negotiations? the french president thanked his counterpart from niger. we have talked about the hostage situation. he recently told me that they were indeed in good health. he indicated that there were probably channels open with the hostage takers. there is also francois hollande and the president of niger who are close friends. they're both socialists. there was a channel that was open. despite many offers by many go- betweens in the region who were probably there -- we have seen reports of infighting over several negotiation teams. the real question is whether there was money involved. francois hollande said, we are
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going to war to make sure there is no more drug trafficking. no more hostagetaking. this has to stop. the french -- this would really put in question his pledge that france will not negotiate. >> a bit of a semantic exercise their. maybe the french state doesn't pay but the french companies pay? andrew, this has gone for a lot of criticism. sometimes the amounts of money they are asking for are more than the entire defense budgets of the countries where they are being held. >> yes. it is certainly a major concern over the last several years as they begin to realize how much money they have potentially amassed over the years. money that allowed them to
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function, money that allowed them to pay bribes, to pay for goods and supplies and to help ingratiate themselves especially in northern mali but also more broadly within the region. >> one figure that had been making the rounds was that the hostage takers were asking for 90 million euros. >> 90. >> those were the figures that were bandied around. maybe this is an inflated figure, but you can see that it is a lot of money people are talking about when it comes to hostages. in the past, there have been indications that money has been paid for the release of previous hostages. >> another person who has seen that something was up his correspondent alex duval smith who joins us from the capital of neighboring mali. you were saying a short while ago that some two weeks ago there were reports of some french people in the northern city of gao.
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>> there have been reports creeping up over the last week of a negotiations team having been seen. that is where the french motivation is in mali. if they are held, they are held in the very far north of mali. i have to say, this is very much speculation. >> we know that the areas where these hostages could have possibly been held if indeed it was inside of nmalian territory are difficult to get to. >> they may also be in nigeria. -- not nigeria, algeria. we understand that the hostages
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are regularly moved to fit in with the battle plans and restrictions imposed by the president of foreign troops in mali. >> many thanks. we will continue to go to you for more updates as this breaking story continues to unfold. the reactions and -- in mali very important. that french force inside of mali . islamists who are of different shades. that brings us to the issue of how these hostages were released. at paris application reporting that al qaeda and islamic maigret -- maghreb was using as a channel and islamist group. we know that there are should -- different shades of islamists. >> absolutely. there are different groups.
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because of the pressure they have seen coming from the french and other armies, there is also infighting. some of the leaders have been killed. some of their troops have been weakened. there is probably a reshuffling of the cards happening right now. it is likely that some of those groups, some of those leaders may be reached out and said, we are in dire straits. maybe they reached out to the government of niger or other go- betweens to say, let's negotiate. let's make sure that maybe we release the hostages, maybe some of the claims about having more autonomy will get a better hearing in the capitals. this is all speculation. clearly, because of the french offensive, all of the cards have been reshuffled in the region. what happened today is probably a result of that. >> often times, the first place
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you hear news of hostages -- this again shows how mobile these groups are. is the capital -- we can go there now. the correspondent there, on your and -- end, how have you seen things there? >> sorry, i didn't hear your question. >> what have you seen there? have there been any reactions today? have you noticed any particular activity or statements coming out? >> so far, nothing. i was with the president and chad president. they talked about aqim. none of them seemed to know at the time. here, it is indeed a place where
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the whole situation is followed really closely. not only because there is media publication and such, but also because a lot of religious colors are involved. more widely, in other movements in all of the muslim world. >> thanks for joining us live. if you're just joining us, four french hostages released. the announcement made by the french president himself. the hostages work for french a -- nuclear giant areva. more now from shirley. >> this was the home of daniel and françois, where they were kidnapped on sikkim or 16, 2010.
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-- september 16, 2010. five other people were kidnapped in the city of arlit. a all work for nuclear giant areva. niger's authorities say the companies could have done more to protect their employees. >> this kidnapping took place because areva's employees were not protected. i am not criticizing areva. that is just a fact. >> the kidnappers took the hostages to an unknown location where they took these pictures. they show daniel and françois, thierry dol, pierre legrand, and marc feret in captivity. a second video was released at the end of august 2012. >> it has been two years.
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it is not normal. have you forgotten us? i went to arlit for a specific job, not for terrorism. my company should contact al qaeda and do what it must to free me. >> this summer, a third video was released. in paris, the victims' families call for action. >> the french government can't just abandon these french citizens. it is their duty to find solutions that allow their quick release. >> in previous cases, the french government is reported to have paid ransoms to secure releases. the government has always denied it. three other french nationals were abducted in mali in 2011. al qaeda said it executed one of them in march, 2013. >> as this news comes in, paul, let me ask you this question. do you feel as though this vast expanse between algeria and
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niger, mali, do you believe that it is a different place today than it was a year ago when the french were intervening? >> it has been fundamentally changed. both in positive respects because the jihadist domination has ended. also other respects that make the region less stable. the whole of southern libya is out of the control of the government. there are regularly reports that both jihadist's and people from the other former rebel groups move across northern niger and into southern libya and relative freedom. there is no authority that can effectively impose control. we have seen huge drug smuggling flow in the past. nobody is quite sure where the drug trafficking and where the
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money is moving. it has become in some ways, much less certain. that opened up opportunities. the hostage release today, the balance of power has shifted. it also makes it much harder to plan ahead and establish for either west african governments or migrant governments or the international community to try to work out a strategy for developing a more stable environment. it has become more complicated. in some ways, it is much more flexible as a region. >> i want to thank you for joining us. i want to thank andrew in washington, our correspondents throughout west africa, marc perlman, many thanks. this is a story we will continue to follow. reactions fom the families and
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>> welcome back. this is the debate. we're going to turn our attention to china. as beijing's most famous square witnessed the chinese capital's first ever major suicide attack. after monday's explosion of a car on tiananmen square 200 yards from the rear at -- great hall of peoples where chinese leaders were reportedly in meetings, five killed including two tourists run over by the car before it exploded. we will hear from eyewitnesses and a moment. a manhunt is on for two man. one is aged 25. the other, 42 years old. the compasses, perpetrators or simple witnesses? authorities aren't saying. the two as well as the three occupants of the car are suspected of being members of the muslim uighur ethnic minority from the northwestern
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province. human rights advocates claim china's long overplayed the threat of proposed controls in a province that is energy rich. what are the facts? how will the new leadership react? on the eve of a major party conference, how far will reforms go in a nation whose phenomenal growth comes at the cost of major social upheaval? today, we are looking at the question of, what is -- was it a suicide attack in tiananmen square? here to talk about it, wei aoyu who teaches history at la sorbonne nouvelle university. thank for being with us. alice ekman of ifriational
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relations. from nottingham, steve tsang, professor of contemporary chinese studies. thank you for joining us. you have been weighing in on the conversation on facebook and twitter. chinese authorities have not labeled it a terror attack. initial reports say it was a traffic accident. those have been all but ruled out. eyewitnesses describe the vehicle. it drove into a pedestrian area, weaving through the crowds, hitting terrorists and police. slamming into a bridge. then, exploding. >> it is hard to explain. the car just seemed to appear. nobody noticed it. we were standing there and suddenly, it came towards us.
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luckily, i moved a step to the side and the car rushed past. later, it seems to be on fire. only when we were far away did i look back and see that it was on fire. then, the police came over. >> steve tsang, when you heard the story, what was your first thought? >> the information that we have been given so far really do not suggest that it was a suicide terrorist attack. we do not have evidence that the car exploded -- it was not a car bomb. the idea that you have three suicide terrorist putting themselves in one vehicle to have a very small impact is not really the kind of thing that we normally see in terrorism. if they were attempting a terrorist attack, they would be
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coming in three vehicles jam packed with explosives. we didn't see anything like that. >> wei aoyu, do you agree that it doesn't seem like a terrorist attack? >> i think that it was a personal action, not organized. it is a personal action with two or three guys. they share the same things. >> so you think there was kind of malicious intent of driving into the pedestrian area. >> yes. >> alice ekman, the reuters news agency and associated press spoke to different witnesses who spoke of people having flags inside of the vehicle before it exploded. what do you think of the story so far? >> we have indications that it might be a terrorist attack. for instance, the uighur names, the police have set an area of
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control quite large around tiananmen square. we don't have much information. it is hard to confirm at the time that it is a terrorist attack. it is hard to explain why these people have acted like this. what is sure is that it is happening -- the place itself is of course particularly sensitive. not only for historical reasons because of 1989, but because it is also close to the meeting places of senior political leaders. >> and the president and prime minister reportedly were 200 yards away. >> but look at -- in the major meeting, top political leaders really gather to think about future economic reforms. it is taking place in a tense
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context. it is too early to draw a conclusion from this act. >> we were talking about the uighurs. there are descriptions of two men distributed to hotels. men whose names signal that they are from the promise -- province that is home to uighurs. the most recent unrest in june of this year -- steve tsang, we know that there is a lot of resentment. could something be possible. there has been talk in the past. >> it is entirely possible. anything is possible under the sun. the idea that two of these three people are almost certainly
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uighur and therefore this must be a terrorist attack is a bit like -- the conclusion would be -- it is not the kind of evidence that will pull anything at all. you can have uighur people doing business who may be under influence, who may have caused something like this without actually intending it to be a terrorist act. a terrorist act is an act of theater to draw attention to a particular cause. there is no particular cause being drawn attention to. we don't know why they are doing it. >> one prominent uighur intellectual warning against any hasty conclusions.
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>> no details on the evidence. for instance, the identities of the deceased, their ethnicity and so on. authorities haven't given any explanation on the motivations behind such an act. i wish they would promptly announced the identities of the deceased and all relevant information. if the government has concluded this is a terrorist attack, then tell us, what is the cause behind it? >> should the government be saying more? >> i don't think so. >> state television talked about an incident -- >> i don't think so. the information is well controlled. everything -- people who try to comment -- [indiscernible]
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i don't think even with 35 years of reform the chinese authorities haven't changed the way they communicate. they will try to minimize the incident and not give the international community the impression that it is something very serious. with a very small impact. >> alice ekman, is it something with a small impact? whack the issue -- >> the issue is that we lack information. we are trying to look for information. >> a car that explodes on tiananmen square -- it doesn't happen every day.
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>> the fact that the circumstances are generating rumors. this is also a double-edged sword of the communication strategy of the party. by censoring -- it is very hard to find any information. it is hard to comment on this event. it is possible in this situation that the party is trying to downplay ethnic tension. if it is, then it is possible that there is an effort from the party to minimize it. the party of policy -- party policy today is to build an inclusive society.
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in this context, it is not in the party's some advantage to play on ethnic tension at all. >> the daily foreign ministry briefing in beijing, questions about a uighur connection drew this response. >> you are very interested in the situation. i can reliably inform you that the current situation is by and large good and the economic and social development is very good. like i said here earlier, people from all ethnic groups want solidarity, stability and growth. the leapfrog development achieved here in terms of the economy, society and culture has been the result of a joint effort by people from all ethnic groups in xinjiang. >> steve tsang, are you convinced? >> not at all. what the government spokesman
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said, there is no semblance to the reality there. the idea that they treat it as a terrorist incident is also not well-based. if the chinese government really saw what happened in tiananmen square as a terrorist attack, they would have taken it very seriously. they would have tried to preserve the crime scene, investigate fully in order to establish who was behind it, what they were really trying to do. instead, they very quickly cleaned up the scene and tried to pretend that it didn't actually happen. they use control over the media in order to give out a version of events which is not very convincing at all. >> steve, what do you think happened? >> we don't really know what actually happened.
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a subsidiary of the people some daily put out a story in which one eyewitness says that the vehicle was being chased by some police vehicles. it could have been a few uighur people who happened to be stopped by the police or being investigated and started to drive away. a high-speed chase that ended up a real disaster. we don't know what actually happened. i don't think we should rule out the possibility that it was something a lot less sinister and at -- that it could be a terrorist attack. >> alice ekman, the way we were talking a minute ago -- wei aoyu was saying this is standard procedure for the way to handle communication on something like this. is there any indication that the new leadership that has come in since the end of last year is any different from the previous
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one? >> we are asking ourselves this question one year ago before the congress. today, we have the answer. he is not a reformist. the first reason is continuity in the strategy of the party. there is continuous control of dissent. there is reinforced control of censorship of the media. also, a growing use of strategies used in the mao era. recently, we had self-criticism of party leaders in public. also, [indiscernible]
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of course to a lesser extent, but we have seen not only continuity but some form of reinforcement of propaganda and the tool used before this time. >> when he was anointed last november as the leader, xi jinping promised a new era in the fight against corruption. >> in this new environment, our party faces many severe challenges. there are many pressing problems within the party that need to be resolved. problems of corruption among party members taking bribes or being out of touch with the people must be addressed with great effort. >> contrast that with the speech opening monday in the trial of
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three activists who had called for chinese officials to report their wealth. this follows the arrests of other activists as well as a crackdown on academics and on nine -- online commentators with large followings. this trial that has opened on monday, those three activists who were just following up on what president xi was saying, that there should be a new era of good governance. they were saying, tell us how much you earn. now they are on trial. >> i think that on one side, the leaders of xi jinping tried to give the chinese people a new look and tried to be different from the previous leader.
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there is always the continuity. so i don't think they will make a big difference. this is the first paradox. one side tries to be more stronger and harder. another side, they try to make themselves more popular. it is very difficult. just as social injustice, etc. corruption as well. >> what is interesting is that what you're both saying is there is a power play going on. a power play between conservatives, reformers -- >> yes.
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now, it is very difficult to distinguish. for example, i think the reformers are all conservatives. perhaps they share the same interests. they share the same conviction. the difference is the way they will take. >> a different approach. >> yes. >> steve tsang, do you agree that it is a little too cynical and quick to just dismiss the new leadership and say they are exactly the same as the previous team? >> i don't think they are exactly the same as previously. xi jinping is doing many things. xi jinping is really not in any sense a liberal reformer. he is a leninist reformer.
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he is strengthening the party. he is increasing the capacity of the party to control. that is to deliver results. he intends to deliver a lot more results than his predecessor did in the last 10 years. nowhere along the line is xi jinping intending to allow any kind of democratization as we understand the word in china. if anything, his objective is to preempt the demand or the need for democratization at all. he needs to be even more effective in establishing the control of himself and the communist party. this is what he meant by his reform. >> you can have an argument
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about economics but not an argument about whether or not to have more democracy. we have a question on twitter. does china have something to hide? >> china is considering that it is not necessarily good to release information about the way the party is working, about the way the police is working as well. in that sense, yes, china has something to hide. i would say that it is to some extent counterproductive for the quality of the image of china abroad. to come back to what steve was mentioning regarding reform, we have to keep in mind that the key aim of the party is stability and economic reform. that is supporting domestic economy growth. in the party's mind, the two are
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separated. we tend to consider here -- >> it sounds like mission impossible. you want to have economic growth and at the same time, without social upheaval. all these migrants who are leaving the country setting going to the big city. >> xi jinping just quoted what deng xiaoping was saying in the 1980's. political stability is a prerequisite for economic improvement. according to him, this is -- there is no paradox here. >> you were mentioning that there is that big meeting coming up next month, becoming his party leadership gathering. a crucial meeting. all agree the stakes are very high. >> china is now at such a crucial stage that without structural transformation and
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upgrading, we will not be able to sustain economic growth. >> those remarks made last month. the wall street journal published a sneak peek of recommendations made by an influential think tank. its recommendations include far- reaching reform of the financial system, a free market for the first time and more market competition. it stopped short of suggesting outright privatization of state firms. steve tsang, when you look at the tug-of-war that wei aoyu was describing between those who see different paths to economic reform, what are the chances of that wishlist and fulfilled? >> i think the chance of the wishlist being incorporated into policy is very high. what we see as contradictions, the communist party doesn't see
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them as contradictions. they are essential requirements and they are required not for the sake of themselves, they are required in order to ensure the communist party can stay in power. that is the first and foremost objective. they will allow more economic liberalization when the party can maintain that control. they will allow less of that liberalization when the party has less capacity to control. they don't want to take any risk. >> do you see some surprises? >> exactly. the main concern is to keep the power. the paradox is that the chinese leaders, even the younger ones,
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i don't think that they understand the economic market economy as we understand. the market economy -- liberal competitions. this [indiscernible] >> still some work to go in terms of opening up that economy truly. i want to thank you, wei aoyu, for joining us. a very interesting discussion. we will continue to follow that discussion. alice ekman, i want to thank you as well. steve tsang joining us from nottingham, england. thank you for joining us here. stay with us. much more to come at the top of the hour.
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