>> this week on overheard, film maker john sayles. >> gopher sisters i think was two ideas i've been walking >> funding for overherd with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community, experienced, respected, and tested. also, by hillco partners. texas government affairs consultancy, and its global health care consulting business unit, hilco health, and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm evan smith, he's an academy award nominated writer and director whose credits include lone star, passion fish, the brother from another planet,

the secret of roane inish. his most recent film, his 18th, is go for sisters. he's john sayles, this is overheard. >> actually, there are not two sides to every issue. >> i guess we can't fire him now. >> i guess we can't fire him now. >> the night that i win the emmy. >> being on the supreme court was an improbable dream. >> it's hard work and it's controversial. >> without information there's no freedom and it's journalists who provide that information. >> window rolls down, this guy says, hey, goes to 11. [ laughter ] >> john sayles welcome. >> thanks. >> nice to see you again. >> nice to be back. >> congratulations on the film, fantastic movie. >> thank you,. >> as they all are. this one really felt great to me, we'll talk about lone star in a minute, it felt like a natural book end given the topic and the setting of it. >> you made this film in 19 days.

>> 19 days. >> a classic, in and out. >> 64 different locations, two countries. >> and for less than a million dollars. >> less than a million dollars. >> i guess this is film making in the modern world. >> it's kind of a return to when i started making movies in the late '70s, we did the same thing, i had to use my own money, and you just, you know, hoped that your actors got everything right in the first three takes then you move on. >> you literally mean it's a return. so return of 1979 was shot in 25 days. >> yeah, 25 days. >> for $300,000. >> no, that was shot for $40,000. >> oh, my god, i overstated it. even less. >> yes. >> 300,000 would have been rich. >>. >> the next movie we had a whole $300,000. >> you did it then basically diy, short time frame, not much money. you would think after 35 years you would have had the ability to do this in a bigger way, but maybe it's better to do it this way. >> there are advantages and

disadvantages, the disadvantages, you can't pay people as much as you would like to. >> right. >> we were dealing with people in the screen actors guild and some of the other union, we had to pay them the minute, there are lower minimums for lower budgets now, which is good. the advantages, we had a screening last night, and i was able to say, look, chris cooper had never been in a movie before, i got to cast him as the lead in the movie. >> and look what's happened. >> yeah. but no way if you're using a studio's money, they're going to let you put an actor they've never seen as the lead in the movie. he was the right actor to do it. the decision to make movies this way today is driven by you as an artist or by the world as it's changed? >> it's a combination, an artist, i have a bunch of stories i'd like to tell, then the world as it's changed. the economics of the movie business are very, very different now. we were very lucky in that when we started making movies and they started coming out in the erdid i '80s, it was a time of an expanded market for all

hollywood movies. there were movie theaters -- offhollywood, that's an interesting phrase as opposed to independent. >> yeah. just not made by the studios. not backed with millions of dollars of advertising. >> yeah. >> the movie theaters that had been calendar houses that every april would show true foes 400 blows realized, oh, there's video now, if people want to see that movie, they can rent it. >> right. >> we have to show something knew. so they started showing american independent films, british films, australian films, some sub titled films in open runs, so all of a sudden we walked into a larger room. the room had gotten a lot smaller, at least the doorway to get through it. >> right. >> and in those days if you made an independent movie, there were six or seven independent distributors, the head of the company would look at that movie if it had sprocket holes. >> yes. >> now will there are no

sprocket holes and there are literally 2,000 to 3,000 movies trying to get through the same doorway and there's still only about six of those distributors and there's still only 52 weeks in the year. >> the competition is great, but i think that the distribution challenge that directors have had previously have been flattened out, a little bit more democratic in the sense that you have a method to distribute your film without the studio's corporation, without the traditional means. and the cable channels and netflix, and that new world of distribution online has given you probably more opportunities. >> yeah. more opportunities for people to see the money. not any more opportunities to get paid for it. >> yeah. there is a small problem. >> that addresses the thing, if you have more than one movie you want to make, going to investors or, even getting any of your money back to invest in your second movie, that's tough. so see an awful lot of film makers, people who win best film at sundance or whatever. >> yeah. >> it's five years or never for their next movie. >> right. because they can't make the

economics of it work. >> yeah. >> but i would think as an artist, it would be not everything, but it might be enough just to have people see it and means for people to see it day are so much greater. >> they are. and longer. when movies were first made, they were meant to be shown and then disappear forever. when they started showing up on tv stations. >> yeah. >> and you could see them again, it was really kind of a surprise to people. it's one of the reasons that i think it was mickey rooney actually who after his sixth or seventh divorce and all the al money that he had to pay saw a movie he had been in on tv and said, wait a minute, they're using my work and i'm not getting paid. and he was one of the guys who started the screen actors guild asking for residuals for that stuff. nobody thought that was going to happen. >> the disappearance of blockbuster and the video store generally has not hurt you all. it's come back up in the form of online. >> yeah, you never got that much money from blockbuster anyway.

>> anyway. >> yeah, to is possibility of somebody tracking your movie down at some point is greater than it's ever been. the possibility of you making any money back on and off hollywood film is lower than it has been in the last 30 years. >> you told the l.a. times at some point in the runup, there are independent films. there's not an independent film business. what does that mean? that interested me a lot. >> well, business in the sense that there's money there. >> yeah. >> that there's a there there. there are, you know, the films come in, and so few of them actually make any money. so few of them get an advance when they get a distributor. >> right. >> so few of them basically show up on the charts at all. >> yeah. >> and hang out for -- for instance, you know, golfers sisters will probably play in almost every city in america eventually for one week. >> only a week. >> because there are so many other movies coming in there,

and it's great for the audience, because there's a new movie every week. ice great for the distributor, because there's a new movie every week. >> but it's not hanging around. >> it's not hanging around, and generally, the film makers, the producers of the movie start making their money about the third week. the first week is eaten up with publicity money and all that -- >> if there is no third week. >> then you're not making much -- >> see if you agree with this, the definition of independent film or independent film maker has changed. you know, five or ten years ago we may have thought that a wes anderson or david o. russell, these are people who we thought of as independent film makers, but the films they make now are studio films, they've got a lot more money behind them, they're not making films 19 days for less than a million dollars. >> my definition has always been, that's the economic definition of an independent film maker, if a film maker starts out with a story they want to tell, this is partly, i got spoiled because i started as a novelist. >> right. >> and i got to control what

went into the book. >> yes. >> there was so little money in literature. >> you at least had that -- >> i had that control. that, you know, if you start with the story you want to tell and you tell that story, and you don't, for whatever reason, you know the old phrase from vietnam, we had to destroy the village in order to save it. sometimes you cast the wrong person that will ruin your movie, wouldn't be the movie you want to make, won't be the story you want to tell, if you do that, you're an independent film maker, if you hold out for that. >> right. this is is the chris cooper example. >> yeah. >> the fact that you get to cast chris cooper or anybody else you choose to. >> absolutely. and there are independent film makers independent of mine who have more power than others, and quite honestly it's tied to their last two movies and how much money they make. >> let's talk about this movie, this is a film, again, like lone star, in the vicinity of the border, over the border, california border as opposed to texas border as lone star was,

yolanda ross, edward james olmos, the parole officer has to team with her childhood friend who is now an ex con in her charge to find her son who has disappeared into the mexican underworld and edward james olmos is election law enforcement, he has vision problems. >> macular degeneration. >> the great met for, his vision is compromised. >> yes. >> who is assisting him in this effort. it's a small movie, but it's a great story, it's suspenseful, why this, how did you arrive at it? what made you come back to this material again? >> with gopher sisters i think it was two ideas i've been walking around with for a long while. i've been interested in friendship and how that can change over time. especially if people in the case of gopher sisters, the two women are, you know, that tight up through high school, and then 20 years pass, and their life happens to them, they don't see each other, and when they're reunited, their status has changed. it could be one person is rich,

the other one is poor, with actors it's often, oh, the guy that i did summer stock with is now george clooney and i'm a struggle actor, is he going to recognize me. or if he recognizes me, is he going to say hello, george clooney is a good guy so he probably would. you've got to worry about that if you're the other guy. >> right. >> in this case it's been i've been a criminal, this person works for law enforcement, and she can put me back in jail, if i violate my parole, what kind of power is that for a friend to have over a friend. >> yeah. >> and then the other story was the story of this happened detective who was followed the code, he didn't take my money, he didn't do anything illegal, he just didn't rat on his best friend who's a cop who got into something he shouldn't have got into, and there's a sting and he has to e-- he loses his pension and he's off the force and he's now losing his sight. what is there left of him, of his identity. >> yeah. >> so the movie becomes and the plot becomes a chance for

redemption for edward james olmos's character. >> it's a great movie. the topic of the border could not be a bigger topic these days in this country, given what's happened, the last time you made a film that was about the border region, back in 1996, pre-911. so i suspect expect the attitude of the consumer toward that subject is different. the act of shooting a film like this has got to be different. you've told many stories with regard to this film with the difficulties that you encountered in shooting. >> the biggest -- two big differences happened when we were making lone star in eagle pass and piedras negras, the drug wars hadn't really reached that part of the texas border. >> right. >> it was still in a couple of times major cities. since then, if you're an ins officer, you know, interindicted people crossing the border, they're not armed, they may run or they may not run, it's one thing, if they may shoot back at

you because they're carrying drugs and they're better armed than you are in some case, it really changes how you do your job and how you think of your job, the second thing was 9-11, and the symbolism that got attached to illegal immigration, and so much of it is symbolic, not practical, and there's that wall, it's a physical thing that wasn't there when we made the thing. we were shooting on both sides of the wall within spitting distance of it several times. so i'm sure the ins were saying who are these people and what are they doing, and we see a camera -- >> you had a guy get arrested. >> we actually had a shot we needed of cars crossing through the san diego tijuana border, and we had talked to at least three government agencying saying we're going to go up on this old unused bridge, we're going to shoot a shot of that, is that okay? this is the time the guy is going to be there, and they

said, okay, it took a week of wrangling, they said okay, he went up there, and a fourth agency showed up, as he was setting up the camera and just getting focus, they took him away, they didn't throw him in jail. but they basically -- >> hard to believe the government doesn't have its act together. >> well, yes, it's really hard to -- and he got six seconds of in focus stuff, and with the, you know, miracles of technology, i doubled that, slowed the cars down a little bit, and i got the shot. >> right, but just -- >> and we didn't have to bail the guy out, they questioned him a bunch, we don't go up there, we don't care what anybody else says. >> how about the other side of the border? did you find weirdly that mexico was a lot more hospitable. >> it was a lot easier to work. >> right. >> one of our producer, who is a mexican producer and director, did a lot of legwork and he said to the people, we're going to make this a matter of national pride. you know, they've had a really,

really bad drug wars on the border over there. >> right, of course. >> which have calmed down to a certain extent, he said we want people to know that you can walk over here without getting hit by a bazooka. they were shooting like anti tank weapons were being used in these street battles. so probably the two night as the we shot in the -- in in the red light district of tijuana was the safest place in all of mexico. >> because it's very well lit. >> right. >> it's like a movie set, it's surrounded by police even when we're not there. people are busy -- >> busy? >> yeah, we had these free extras, they didn't care if we were there with a movie camera. >> i'm going to take your word for how safe it was over there. i'm going to assume you're telling me the truth on that. hamilton is a familiar face. when you see her, you know her, you've seen her on television. >> i've worked with her in honey dripper before. >> edward james olmos is a

grizzled veteran. he's wonderful. had not seen yolanda ross before. >> yolanda i met when she came to get the part that hamilton got in honey dripper. it's a hard thing, i've been an actor, t.o. go in and audition for something, it's really tough, you're saying please hire me, you toe, -- you know, if you're auditioning you're not that well-known. i try to be there, i try to act with the other actor, one of the things i want to do is find out who they are, even if i know the minute they walk in the door they're not right for this part. >> right. >> i wrote down really good actor, try to work with this person. >> there's always another part, there's always another movie. >> you hope there's another movie. >> but, you know, i've acted in other people's movies and acted with people, boy, this guy is good, i'm going to bring this person for another -- when you make these decisions, often you are, as you say with chris cooper, you're often setting them on a course they're not even fully appreciating.

you're giving them opportunities. >> you hope so, you hope people see them. yolanda is a world class actor. there's another actor, vanessa martinez, she played young liz pena in lone star, she was in limbo, she was in casa los babies speaking spanish. maybe one of the problems is people don't connect the dots and say that's the same actress. >> but, still, isn't that part of the sales repertoire company. >> you hope that people eventually who make movies and cast movies see the people in them and, you know, mary mcdonald got dances with wolves after doing one. >> the one i'm thinking about honestly, there may be a kind of home town, heroism in home town is matthew mcconaughey, who was ridiculed for a long time for taking bad parts in bad movies but has come around to be thought of a quite accomplished actor. you saw him in lone star what we

now see in dallas buyer's club and magic mike and mud and all of these films for which he's getting recognition, not the golf ball actor making films that were in the theaters and out within five minutes. >> i had seen matthew in dazed and confused where he played a gold ole boy. >> truly one of the good ole boys. >> i think it was a part he got when he was a film student. they kept giving him more to do in the movie and i needed a guy who could have a face-off with kris kris totofferson. matthew is from uvalde. >> he know how to wear the boots. i like that. >> he also knew how to listen, the things that actors need how to do, as he's done more and more movies, he's been able to take some chances every once in a while when he's not going out

with gender aniston. >> not that you're trying to make news now. that's all passed. >> he's been able to try some things, which is one of the nice things of stardom is that every once in a while you can say to your agent, i'm going to do this thing, it's four weeks, it's no money, you know, maybe -- maybe people will see it and maybe they won't, but i want to try this. >> arguably mud is one of those, and it's become common, i guess, for veteran actors to say occasionally, i'm going to -- i'm going to do a smaller film, maybe people who kind of coming down the wrong side of the mountain like john travolta did, or maybe people who say i'm interested in this director or this story. >> or i could never get a studio to let me play this part. >> and you benefit as much as other people from that. >> probably about six or seven years into the '80s, it started being okay. at first it was you might see ernest borg nine in a box if you paid his price, whatever it was,

but then i never met him, but i always give a lot of credit to harvey kitel. he is one of the first actors that said i'll do it. >> tarantino, he's been one of the directors who's benefited from these actors over time as others have. has technology changed -- you've made 35 years worth of films. so coming up on 35 years. clearly technology has changed. >> yeah. >> has it changed the way you make movies and has it made it possible for you to do more with those low budgets than you did all the way back? >> yeah, a couple of things. couple of big things changed. in film the first thing that changed, when i first started there was no video assist, to know really you really got the shot, you waited until dailies, which were usually a day or two later, or the word of the camera operator who had his eye. >> i got it. >> and if he said i'm not sure, i may have buzzed focus there, you had to do another one, which might turn into four more, and

so there was a lot of trust involved. also the cinematographers had to go around with a little light meter and light by math and say this has to be two times brighter than this, because the film stock wasn't, you know, strong enough to register the real light. then, the film stock started getting faster, and they could light by eye, and eye -- i by eye could see whether i liked it. it looks like hell right now, but it will look great when we render it properly. digital was not very good in the beginning, it's getting better and better and better and better, but there's still things that you have to be careful with it. basically you go faster because you don't have to change reels quite as often, but also there's so much more you can do afterwards to improve something that wasn't perfect on the day. >> yeah. and so we actually don't realize it necessarily.

>> yeah. >> but we're seeing a better product. >> and you're starting to see the last bond movie, roger deacon shot it, i worked with him, he's a wonderful cinematographer, that was great to see a 35-millimeter film movie, because i had been seeing this digital stuff, and the credits come up and it was digital. i asked you before you got up here, what are you working on next. you said i'm doing some writing for cable. >> i make a living as a screen writer for hire. whenever there's a writer's guild strike i write a novel. the last one i wrote a moment in the sun. that was fun. it was a long strike. it was a thousand page book. but to make a living and to get out of the economic hole that you often dig if you finance your own movies, i write for other people, most of the work now is in cable series, everybody wants to know, do you have a series, do you have a

series? and a lot of what you do is you go and prepare and pitch the series to the studios. >> so for whom are you working? >> right now, there's something that's in the really insipient stages at hbo. you write these things. some of them get made. most of them don't. >> your idea. >> no, usually other people come to me with these ideas, would you like to be writer. >> you don't mind inheriting somebody else's vision and having to -- >> no, because you're adding to it, always. >> right. >> if you don't like it you say -- >> frankly you've done it before. you've worked on films alongside other writers. >> i started working out on creature features for roger hoerman. it is a process. you have to be prepared when they say, and then what happens in season 3, you haven't been paid anything yet. they haven't given you the green light. >> that is one problem with

episodic television is there's always another series or season ideally. >> and most stories really have a natural art to them, and you've all seen series where, well, the first two seasons were great, now what are they doing. >> all the complaints about homeland is one of the complaints, people say it should have ended at the second season, you don't want people saying that, but it's a challenge of writers to get you out of that hole. >> the cable people start making money or building their audience about season three. >> it's a little bit like what you say about the movies, the third week of a movie being in the -- >> yeah. yeah. there are very few ideas that can go on indefinitely. >> right. >> and every once in a while somebody will say, ooh, boy, the sopranos, for instance, i think it ended elegantly. and i thought it ended because he really realized these people aren't going in i where. >> i've got no place to go. >> we can keep whacking people, introducing people and killing them, be you they aren't going

to move personally anywhere. they've all had their chance to change, and none of them, the whole family has changed, so we're going to bring them back to the diner and that's it. and then we're going to end it at an awkward moment, people think the film ran out, that song cut off, we're going to talk about what happened. >> it's over. >> our movie limbo has the same thing, when it was in blockbuster, when blockbuster existed, people would come and say the last reel is broken, what happened. >> i'm sure david chase enjoyed hearing it. it's so nice to get to sit with you and hear that you haven't changed fundamentally, still the same guy who made all of those movies. >> still surviving. better that you do this than become somebody different. >> yeah. >> don't compromise your own vision. see you, congratulations again on the movie. we hope lots of people go see it wherever it's playing. john sayles, thank you so much. [ applause ] >> we'd love to have you join us in the studio, visit our website at klru.org /overheard to find

invitations to interview, q and a's with our audience and guest and an archive of past episodes. >> i wrote it 11 years were it got made, every coupling of years because the heads of studios changed, we would take it around, and orion, the people who eventually made it, had already turned it down twice. >> funding is provided in part by mfi foundation. improving the quality of life within our community, and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected and tested. also by hillco partners. texas government affairs consultancy. and its global health care consulting business unit hilco health. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you.

thank you.

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